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EvanM
26-07-2014, 05:18
The only thing bad about this guy is that he can't have mounts and doesn't get more than a +2 to cast, but is he good?
8 spells is a lot, including some very good ones!

Wyssan's is good, searing doom to kill knights, miasma or heavens one to Hex people, can get cheap 5+ regen, and a pair of magic missiles (one for flyers, one flexible multipurpose one)

If he could get +4 to cast he'd be epic.

Main downside I see is not +4 to dispel if you don't also take a lvl 4 archmage and he doesn't have spells like dwellers, but screw those spells anyway.

What do you guys think?

Moss
26-07-2014, 06:02
I don't think this is new information, but the problem is his +2 to cast/dispel. The (8) spells is nice, but you KNOW you'll be up against a +4 to dispel, so it's tough.

He is a good pick in lower point valued games when you're not guaranteed to see a lvl 4. In a 1000pt game for example, your opponent won't be prepared to deal with (8) spells, regardless of casting bonus.

In bigger games, he just takes power dice from your lvl4 caster.

SteveW
26-07-2014, 06:13
My lord choices for my HE's are an Archmage and Loremaster every time.

Imperator64
26-07-2014, 06:22
The book of hoeth does a lot to deal with his low wizard level. I haven't done the maths but i'd be suprised if it didn't give him average dice rolls equal to those of a lv 4.
The spells he has are all gems and you'll never find yourself without at least a couple of perfect targets each turn. And having a little of each lore means you have boxes ticked for many armies that do badly against specific lores. You're against WE? You've got fireball. Undead or daemons weep against Shem's. Lizard monsters and skinks disappear to spirit leach and I love having seeing doom against ogres. Roll 6 dice and delete mournfang. Beaut. :)

ezz
26-07-2014, 06:31
Don't forget that he can handle himself in combat pretty good, and you can kit him out to be either fighty or casty.

The eight spells are all awesome, wyssans is pretty good for elves (S and T 4? yes please) fireball is a nice magic missile, searing doom is so good against WoC and heavily armored knights, Shem's burning gaze is good, but it's great against demons and undead, Earthblood 5+ regen, what's not to like about it, iceshard is handy against those pesky dwarfs with their organ guns, miasma is just all-round good and Spirit Leech is nice if your against something undead or the enemy have a very fighty Lord/Hero. Only real downside is indeed that you don't have the 4+ to cast/dispel, but you can chose which spell you want to go through and which spell you don't want, just as you would with the Archmage, you only need to throw more dices.

EvanM
26-07-2014, 06:40
Yeah i'm thinking if you don't run an archmage then you take him with book of hoeth and a 4++ too to get him sort of like a lvl 4. But if you really want to then i'd take him with killy stuff and take a lvl 4 high archmage as well for the dispel and other spells.

My favorite thing about him is the 8 spells (8 is great!) but it's also the fact that he has the ability to always have useful spells! I find myself taking a 300 point archmage with high magic who usually has only 1 decent spell to cast, which sucks. I hate high magic.

I'm gonna try him out.

SteveW
26-07-2014, 06:47
I run him with the 2+/6++ HE armor(the name escapes me) and a dispel scroll and put him in a unit of swordmasters with the banner of awesomesauce.

Then I put my level 4 in a unit of phoenix guard with a 4++ and book of hoeth.

Typo
26-07-2014, 15:26
Loremaster with BoHoeth and Talisman of Protection + a level 1/2 with a scroll makes for a perfectly adequate magic phase.
It certainly ruins the day of a wood elf skirmisher army (You have how many magic missiles I have to dispell?).

It's a fallacy that a level 4 is required, when you have that level of flexibility. Sure it helps, but it's hardly required.

ezz
26-07-2014, 16:07
At 1500 points, a Loremaster with BoHoeth, Shield of the Merwyrm, Sword of Might and the Ironcurse Icon makes up for a perfectly adequate magic phase.

EvanM
26-07-2014, 16:56
At 3k points I would take a lvl 4 and a loremaster.

Right now at 2k and 2.5k I am gonna try just a loremaster. I like the idea of him in a swordmaster unit but isn't that a pretty juicy target? Magic resist 2 would be nice for that unit...

I hate not having a good spell to cast or rolling a 5 and a 5 for winds of magic and then realizing only one spell I can cast even matters.

bigbiggles
26-07-2014, 23:53
Loremaster is great. I take him with a high archmage lvl 4. The high caster gets a majority of the dice on turns 1 and 2. After that, the loremaster takes most. Since high magic lacks good spells once in combat

EvanM
27-07-2014, 04:01
I just hate high magic. Sorry but it's disgusting.

Um anyways if I take a loremaster only, what unit is better complemented:
30 white lions or 30 phoenix guard?
I also have spearmen and swordmaster but i'm deciding between pg and wl.

Shadeseraph
27-07-2014, 08:35
I've been running a lone loremaster at 2400-2500 for a long time. It's perfectly capable, and far more defensive than an archmage. My only issue is that you -need- a dispel scroll if you are using one, because shutting that key magic phase is usually way too important, and he alone can't do it, even with the book. All that versatility makes up for caster level.

In general, my experience is that he fares better with white lions or swordmasters than PG. Sure, he gives the PG some punch, but WL/SM actually benefit from life's lvl 0, and that spell is already useful to heal characters or monsters.
I like Sword of might + shield of the merwyn + Golden Crown of Atrazzar + either BoH or dispel scroll, though if I take the BoH I need a second mage to pick that scroll.

Lord Solar Plexus
27-07-2014, 09:28
He's crazily good. Having so many low level spells means you can deal with (almost) every situation and two-dice a bunch of them. +2 or not, people are hardly going to stop it all. It's a bit disingenious to complain about that; a L4 with his abilities would be extreme, and people take bounds even though they get no bonus (and ususally can't dispel at all).

EvanM
27-07-2014, 19:30
8 spells is awesome. Plus they are all great spells. The only overlap is shem's gaze and fireball but you can pick based on whether it's a daemon or not. (or undead?)

I am soo sooo sooooooo getting a loremaster. One question, is a loremaster a general or should I get a different general?

EvanM
27-07-2014, 19:31
8 spells is awesome. Plus they are all great spells. The only overlap is shem's gaze and fireball but you can pick based on whether it's a daemon or not. (or undead?)

I am soo sooo sooooooo getting a loremaster. One question, is a loremaster a general or should I get a different general?

bigbiggles
28-07-2014, 01:55
He is fine as a general. You can always use the standard of discipline to get the LD 10 if needed

EvanM
28-07-2014, 04:07
What unit should he go in? Swordmasters? Spearmen? Or white lions?

Moss
29-07-2014, 04:27
+2 or not, people are hardly going to stop it all. It's a bit disingenious to complain about that; a L4 with his abilities would be extreme...
You mean like the Slann?

I didn't mean to sound like I'm complaining; I love my Wandering Deliberations and take it in almost every game. It's just that even when my Slann is my only caster, I always run out of power dice before I run out of useful spells to cast. In the few HE games I've taken a level 4 and a Loremaster, I've had a giant stack of spells I never even attempted to cast.

I guess you could take ONLY the Loremaster, but it (sadly) really is tough to run a decent magic defense without a level 4.

EvanM
29-07-2014, 04:39
yeah what you need is for him to be a level 3, thatd solve our problems. having book of hoeth gives you a wee bit more magic defense and much better chance to cast spells

boli
29-07-2014, 13:16
I guess you could take ONLY the Loremaster, but it (sadly) really is tough to run a decent magic defense without a level 4.

With book of Hoeth you basically add +2 to your level once the reroll is taken into account; this will happen on the casting or the dispel phase.




(not perfect but close enough)

Average results

1 Dice
Level 4: 7.5
Level 2 with BoH: 5.5

2 Dice
Level 4: 11
Level 2 with BoH: 11.5

3 Dice
Level 4: 14.5
Level 2 with BoH: 15

4 Dice
Level 4: 18
Level 2 with BoH: 18.5

5 Dice
Level 4: 21.5
Level 2 with BoH: 22

6 Dice
Level 4: 25
Level 2 with BoH: 25.5

copesh
29-07-2014, 17:29
It would be nice to have the option to buy up his wizard levels - maybe at 50 pts per level.

EvanM
29-07-2014, 18:36
itd be too good if the loremaster was able to be lvl3 or 4, i mean thats probably why they didnt do it. lvl 3 would be perfect since an archmage would still trump but not be THAT much better.

how do you equip your loremaster?

bigbiggles
30-07-2014, 09:49
I put mine in white lions with that magic dragon armor from the book. Then either a dispel scroll or the soul quench ring

ezz
30-07-2014, 10:12
I put mine in White Lions too (17 of them going 6x3) and equip my loremaster with Book of Hoeth, Shield of the Merwyrm (this thing is awesome btw, it's sort of a 4++ but only in combat), Sword of Might (to still get that strength bonus) and Ironcurse Icon. Next game I'm going to try him as a more fighty character, with Talisman of Preservation, Ogre Blade and Ironcurse Icon.

EvanM
30-07-2014, 17:10
i was basically thinking defensively: armor of caledor + Book of hoeth (keep the GW for combat i guess) and try to get the 5+ regen off when in combat

that or talisman of pres + book of hoeth but tbh i kind of like the idea of a 2+ armor save over basically only a 4++ ward.

Vulgarsty
06-08-2014, 22:24
I run him with the 2+/6++ HE armor(the name escapes me) and a dispel scroll and put him in a unit of swordmasters with the banner of awesomesauce.

Then I put my level 4 in a unit of phoenix guard with a 4++ and book of hoeth.

pretty smart, that way both units (and casters) are pretty well insulated against miscasts.

WhispersofBlood
07-08-2014, 03:08
i was basically thinking defensively: armor of caledor + Book of hoeth (keep the GW for combat i guess) and try to get the 5+ regen off when in combat

that or talisman of pres + book of hoeth but tbh i kind of like the idea of a 2+ armor save over basically only a 4++ ward.

Probably why its illegal, 105 points.

EvanM
07-08-2014, 05:16
Armor of silvered steel is a 2+ for 45 pts.

You're thinking armor of caledor which is 50.

My loremaster is gonna be my soul caster with BoH and AoSS but a 2+ armor save is on par with a 4+ ward

Lord Dan
07-08-2014, 11:56
I just hate high magic. Sorry but it's disgusting.

Actually High Elf High Magic is pretty lackluster - their Lore Attribute, on the other hand, is disgusting.

WhispersofBlood
07-08-2014, 11:57
Armor of silvered steel is a 2+ for 45 pts.

You're thinking armor of caledor which is 50.

My loremaster is gonna be my soul caster with BoH and AoSS but a 2+ armor save is on par with a 4+ ward

You said armour of caledor not me...

Silvered Steel and Book of Hoeth is pretty standard for Loremaster, so is Dispel Scroll, Shield of the Merwyrm, and Giant Blade.


Actually High Elf High Magic is pretty lackluster - their Lore Attribute, on the other hand, is disgusting.

Yeah for every instance you wished you had a high magic spell, there is 10 examples of wishing you took a different lore with your wizard when you take High Magic. It really doesn't do enough unless you build your army around using it, and even then its not really all that impressive. Including the lore attribute, rather have a 5++ spell.

Yowzo
07-08-2014, 12:11
Silvered Steel and Book of Hoeth is pretty standard for Loremaster, so is Dispel Scroll, Shield of the Merwyrm, and Giant Blade.

Sword of might is usually enough. Clocks in at less than 300 which lets you also field an archmage with Book of Hoeth and 4+ ward at 2500.

EvanM
07-08-2014, 18:17
I don't get this, I mean why spend 20pts on magical equipment when a great weapon is actually a really good loadout for an elf..

Yowzo
07-08-2014, 18:47
I don't get this, I mean why spend 20pts on magical equipment when a great weapon is actually a really good loadout for an elf..

Because you can't use shield of merwyrm with a GW.

EvanM
07-08-2014, 18:59
Good point. I do however prefer saving the shield of M for my bsb since he has a smaller allowance and just go with AoSS + BoH for my loremaster. He's not a blenderlord but that's okay.

Lycannus
07-08-2014, 19:57
Last time I ran a loremaster, I ran him with no extra equipmentat all, and for that battle he out performed any other character I have ran with High elves. just goes to show equipment does not always make the man.

EvanM
07-08-2014, 22:09
most of the time we use equipment to make up for the shortcommings of the characters, like if they are weak then give em a ward save, if they dont do enough damage then give them a magic weapon etc.
the loremaster might just be so fricken good that he doesnt need to be "fixed" with equipment :p

Lord Dan
08-08-2014, 00:27
most of the time we use equipment to make up for the shortcommings of the characters, like if they are weak then give em a ward save, if they dont do enough damage then give them a magic weapon etc.
the loremaster might just be so fricken good that he doesnt need to be "fixed" with equipment :p

Until he gets into combat and tries to fall back on his T3, 5+ armor...

Captain Collius
08-08-2014, 00:36
Yeah for every instance you wished you had a high magic spell, there is 10 examples of wishing you took a different lore with your wizard when you take High Magic. It really doesn't do enough unless you build your army around using it, and even then its not really all that impressive. Including the lore attribute, rather have a 5++ spell.

Yeah as a lore it actually works best for wood elves in my opinion. However i have built a list around using it on a unit of dragon princes it can get disgusting if i get rid of your mages.

Yowzo
08-08-2014, 07:48
Good point. I do however prefer saving the shield of M for my bsb since he has a smaller allowance and just go with AoSS + BoH for my loremaster. He's not a blenderlord but that's okay.

If the loremaster is your main caster then yes. If you're running him along an archmage then BoH works better on the lv4 (mostly for dispelling purposes).

EvanM
08-08-2014, 23:13
What's the purpose of having an archmage with book and a loremaster? That's literally 12 or more spells you have access to, and over 500 pts. I just feel like with the way that winds of magic work that it's a little much to have all that at once.

If the phoenixes had some random ability where they add power dice then they'd be even more used, I suppose, but with 2d6 you run the risk of getting a 2-4 dice to cast 12+ spells.

Lord Dan
09-08-2014, 02:04
I agree. I've always felt a Loremaster or an Archmage was more than enough, and that having both typically left one twiddling their thumbs in any given magic phase.

EvanM
09-08-2014, 02:40
Plus high magic is stupid.

I mean if the magic phase worked like 6th ed or if you got 1 channel die per wizard level, then magic would scale well, but right now it caps at basically a lvl 4 and maybe a regular lvl 2 or some bound spells. Even 12 power dice would not be all that many for trying to cast 12 spells

Typo
12-08-2014, 10:05
Offtopic - but given that most of the comments have been along the lines of "He'd be overpowered as a level 3/4", what are people's opinions on a Slann with the Wandering Deliberations ability (basically giving him the same spells as a Loremaster, but at lv4)?

EvanM
12-08-2014, 22:23
slanns are the best mages in the game. magic is kind of fricken psycho in 8th so i guess hed probably be insanely good.

SteveW
18-08-2014, 20:20
Offtopic - but given that most of the comments have been along the lines of "He'd be overpowered as a level 3/4", what are people's opinions on a Slann with the Wandering Deliberations ability (basically giving him the same spells as a Loremaster, but at lv4)?


Too expensive. The loremaster works because he's a combat hero that casts spells and is relatively cheap and effective with no upgrades. The slann is better off with focus of mystery and then switching out for the spells he likes

Captain Collius
19-08-2014, 02:37
Too expensive. The loremaster works because he's a combat hero that casts spells and is relatively cheap and effective with no upgrades. The slann is better off with focus of mystery and then switching out for the spells he likes

I'd respectfully disagree. Wandering deliberation offers some utility to your magic phase and is a viable option however you will usually find just picking a regular lore works better as swapping out for high magic wastes valuable turns in the game.

pinktaco
20-08-2014, 11:54
Too expensive. The loremaster works because he's a combat hero that casts spells and is relatively cheap and effective with no upgrades. The slann is better off with focus of mystery and then switching out for the spells he likes

I've had much success with WD. Works wonderfully since you have a tool box of spammable spells. It works though because the slann can generate more PD than a HE lord mage while he's also quite capable of shutting down the opponents magic phase.

EvanM
20-08-2014, 21:37
I still like loremaster better. I'm sticking him in swordmasters and daring anyone to charge that "bunker" haha yeah

TheCaledorian
07-03-2015, 02:10
The Loremaster of Hoeth is good for versatility, but he is rather expensive for only the +2 to cast. He isn't a bad choice, and I highly recommend him along with an Archmage (Level 3 or 4) in any battles above 2000 points, but in lower battles I suggest not spending those points unless you really want a low-power warrior mage. The Loremaster simply isn't good enough at magic to be your only mage, and isn't good enough at combat to be your Superman. You can tilt him either way, I guess, but he is harder to use as equally combat and magic.

One nice idea might be to beef him up a little, then put him in a combat unit with your big mage. (Maybe stubborn White Lions). He could challenge heroes that were in his league, and provide some extra support with magic too, boosting himself or hitting the enemy. I'm not sure how well this will work, but the main danger would be fleeing and being caught and destroyed. If you made the Loremaster dangerous enough, he could be a small magic boost as well as a decent combat lord.

You could also go for heavy magic, in which case the Book of Ashur would be handy, or just a Dispel Scroll for those out of reach monsters (Dwellers, Chain Lightning, anything cast by a Slann, etc.) Give him protection and a little casting/dispelling boost and he can be your main caster, but also be okay in combat if it comes down to it. Like I said, he can't go big either way, but a little extra towards one or the other and the Loremaster isn't too bad as support. I don't expect him to be able to be a combat lord and big magician, so don't have him be the only guy in either category.

It's also a hammer
08-03-2015, 15:09
I'm assuming this all regards to non-End Time games as if you are using "The Magic of the End a Times" from Khaine he knows all of the spells from the BRB. Give him the book of hoeth and he can re-roll failed casts therefore allowing to keep casting the same 14+ or lower spells over and over again. Then your first job would be to cast Throne of Vines for the 2+ negation of miscasts. He can then basically own anything and use every augment and hex spell to make his army and himself ridiculous. Or blast things from afar with a turn of magic missiles and direct damage spells.