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EvanM
27-07-2014, 05:00
The last 5 lizzie lists I have seen didn't have a single saurus, mounted or otherwise.

Why is that? They sound awesome to mee for what they do! And they look amazing...

russellmoo
27-07-2014, 05:45
I think it more deals with the fact that lizardmen have such cool monster choices. Who wouldn't want to field an army of dinosaurs. And if you are taking dinosaurs then warmachine hunting becomes the number one concern this means skinks. Of course you also have to have your temple guard they seem to be mandatory and when everything is accounted for there just isn't room for Saurus.

EvanM
27-07-2014, 05:53
If it was me i'd go for 30+ saurus in one unit, temple guard + slann another, then monsters skinks and cavalry.

I see how that all adds up though, but if I played lizzies I wouldn't leave home without 30 saurus.

MOMUS
27-07-2014, 11:55
Saurus arnt seen very often because most lizard players think they suck. TG are seen a little bit more but are hardly mandatory.

WhispersofBlood
27-07-2014, 15:04
The skink cloud works because there is only one real focal point to get points out of for a traditional army build to target. The Slann. If you start adding blocks it a) takes away from the cloud and b) adds a second location for a traditional army to target for VPs. Cloud army is usually 4 Skirmishers, 4 Cohorts for 80 skinks in core, so getting min core isn't really an issue here. The combat punch comes from either Mounted Scar-vets or COC units.

EvanM
27-07-2014, 20:34
That's really lame. There's no way I wouldn't take 30 saurus at the very least. They just seem so awesome to me in looking and rules.

Are they too many ppm or something? I mean what do skink cohorts do in combat besides tarpit?

Coldblood666
27-07-2014, 21:17
I just finished painting 40 saurus so I'll definitely be using them in my army. I'm gonna throw a scar vet in the unit for combat punch. Other than that I've got 2 units of 12 skink skirmishers to finish off core.

I figure the saurus can tarpit while my monsters add support.

EvanM
27-07-2014, 22:27
is it because saurus have like I1? so they get killed before they hit anything?

WhispersofBlood
27-07-2014, 23:14
The entire premise of the cloud army is to not fight, so why would it take a combat unit?

EvanM
27-07-2014, 23:58
so lizardmen can play avoidance....?

MOMUS
28-07-2014, 01:21
so lizardmen can play avoidance....?

Lizardmen nearly always play avoidance.

WhispersofBlood
28-07-2014, 01:53
so lizardmen can play avoidance....?

Between terradons, skinks, poison and flaming shooting they are probably the best in the game at avoidance.

Moss
28-07-2014, 04:32
Lizardmen nearly always play avoidance.

That's a pretty bold statement that I'm pretty sure isn't true. I'll tack on some qualifiers to make it possibly more true.

"I with my Lizardmen, nearly always play avoidance."
"People in tournaments with Lizardmen nearly always play avoidance."
"British players with Lizardmen nearly always play avoidance."

That said, I won't argue that Lizardmen play a very good avoidance game (arguably the best). Just know it's very easy to play and win with an army featuring Saurus blocks (as long as you bring plenty of Skinks; they're still pretty important to support your combat blocks).

I don't play avoidance, and there are plenty of other Lizardmen players who don't play avoidance (some on these very forums!). You may have just caught a string of the "wrong" army list threads.

EvanM
28-07-2014, 05:38
I honestly had no idea that lizardmen were so good at avoidance and did it so often.

I'm guessing it's all about skink skirmishers and other flying fast type guys running and gunning with javelins and blow pipes?

I don't know lizardmen rules but I guess it's interesting that there's another army out there (besides woodies) that can play avoidance.

Anyone want to explain how it works?

I guess i'd love to see a battle report to see the avoidance in action

Josfer
28-07-2014, 06:55
Everyone can play an avoidance list who has either skirmisher or fast cav core with shooting. HE, WE, DE, LM, TK and I'd guess (but never have seen it) even WoC could play that (marauder horsemen with javelins or throwing axes + unkillable disc riders that breath fire and throw warpfire around + fire breathing chimeras).
What makes LM exceptional is the HUGE amount of attacks they get with 7 ppm units with multiple shots (2).

The core of avoidance is running into the flank and back of your enemy and using the free reforms (skirmisher/fast cav) to turn and shoot him in the side/back. If he turns to face you, he can't charge that turn and in your turn you run into his flank/rear again, turn, shoot, etc.

EvanM
28-07-2014, 07:03
Wow that's just crazy.

The only thing you can do is get lucky charges (and you double flee) then maybe get magic missiles to shoot em.

Skinks' shooting is good and they have M6 and with skirmish you are hit at -1 from shooting.
I can see that being devastating actually.

I don't think skink skirmishers should be core then, but even then that wouldn't stop em.

Wesser
28-07-2014, 07:12
Saurus are a great unit actually

A more than decent combat block AND tarpit they are always useful. The only slight problem with them are that Scar-Vets/oldbloods are overpowered to the point of madness. It often doesn't make sense to buy combat units when you can just spam cheap heroes who only lack wounds and Thunderstomp to be monsters.

People then take Heroes for combat and skink clouds against monsters.

Saurus would surely be rediscovered if Saurus heroes were bumped 50 points

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
28-07-2014, 07:49
I honestly had no idea that lizardmen were so good at avoidance and did it so often.

I'm guessing it's all about skink skirmishers and other flying fast type guys running and gunning with javelins and blow pipes?

I don't know lizardmen rules but I guess it's interesting that there's another army out there (besides woodies) that can play avoidance.

Anyone want to explain how it works?

I guess i'd love to see a battle report to see the avoidance in action
Basically the lizard player takes a "cloud" of min-sized skirmishing skink units (or cohorts if they need banners for blood & glory) surrounding the Slann. Now these SEEM like an inferior choice to saurus because they're weaker. However in reality they are much, MUCH harder to get points out of because they just double- flee any charge and basically auto-rally the next turn from the slanns LD 10 cold blooded rerollsble leadership. Then they surround and trap your units, while the rest of his army rips you apart as he pleases.

Trick is to disable all of his hammers before the skinks can envelope you. The Slann is a buff machine, but needs things to buff. Buffed saurus can be mean, but buffed skinks are pretty worthless. Ignore the slann, ignore the skinks, fans you can do alright.

Malagor
28-07-2014, 08:01
I always bring 2 units of saurus warriors.
Yes they are only I1 and the "must pursue unless there is a skink character nearby" rule can hurt but they got good armor save and overall good stats.
I think they go very well with skink skirmishers(With javelins, never blowpipes) clearing out monsters and chaff while Saurus go for the rank and file.

pinktaco
28-07-2014, 09:38
What? No they wouldn't. We'd just take templeguards and keep the skinks.

MOMUS
28-07-2014, 10:23
That's a pretty bold statement that I'm pretty sure isn't true.

would you agree that In even semi competitive circles skinks are usually seen as the superior choice?

Rake
28-07-2014, 12:31
That's just another sad example of playing the rules and not the game.

The bearded one
28-07-2014, 12:43
Honestly, I take a bit of everything. I take a nice, juicy block of 30 saurus, nearly as many TG, 40-50 skink skirmishers to cloud around them, and 1 or two monsters.

Saurus are a fine block. Good armour, toughness, lots of str4 attacks. Their primary problems are ws and initiative, but you can overcome those with their solid defence and lots of attacks.

A real different problem they have is that str4 struggles to get through the toughness of monsters (T6) or the ubiquitous 1+ armoursave knight units. Skink poison and spammed scar veterans do a better job at that. Some people take skinks and scarvers solely, rather than saurus. I like mixing them up and giving all my saurus units 1 or more scar vets with great weapons to provide the heavy-duty hitting power.

WhispersofBlood
28-07-2014, 13:53
Saurus are a great unit actually

A more than decent combat block AND tarpit they are always useful. The only slight problem with them are that Scar-Vets/oldbloods are overpowered to the point of madness. It often doesn't make sense to buy combat units when you can just spam cheap heroes who only lack wounds and Thunderstomp to be monsters.

People then take Heroes for combat and skink clouds against monsters.

Saurus would surely be rediscovered if Saurus heroes were bumped 50 points

Nah Saurus are in that awkward position of being kind of elite, but not really. They are the sort of unit DGK's love to fight, expensive and low Ws. Its just not a good place to be in. Conversely people often forget how poor the Ws on Saurus Characters are. Yes they have frightening defensive stats, but generally human level Ws and I, leaving them vulnerable to hexes. They are pretty reasonably priced, its characters like Exalted Heroes and Chaos Lords that are over costed, due to unnecessary inflated statlines. also remember they don't break steadfast, have limited options for combo charges in a cloud army, and only a limited number of wounds, so need to be cautious against high strength or high number of attacks.

pinktaco
28-07-2014, 16:23
Saurus are a great unit actually

A more than decent combat block AND tarpit they are always useful. The only slight problem with them are that Scar-Vets/oldbloods are overpowered to the point of madness. It often doesn't make sense to buy combat units when you can just spam cheap heroes who only lack wounds and Thunderstomp to be monsters.

People then take Heroes for combat and skink clouds against monsters.

Saurus would surely be rediscovered if Saurus heroes were bumped 50 points

Your comment makes so little sense that one gets the feeling that you don't own the army.

What is even more interesting is that your solution to make saurus viable is also the one that makes them even worse off. The only way to make the saurus actually have a fighting chance against the opponents they're facing is by adding a fighty character. By adding 50pts to the scar vets alone you might just as well remove them entirely. You sound as someone who've gotten his as's handed to him by a Lizzie player. Also by upping the SV by 50pts they would be 10pts off an oldblood. So we raise those by 80-100pts right? Surely that would make sense because at that point we'd never ever see a single fighty character in the army since the OB would now eat too much into the obligatory slann points. But hey you wanted more saurus warriors who can't stand a proper fighting chance and remove what actually can fight.

Reason why saurus can't properly fight is due to the current meta. S6 means even skinks are equally equipped at tarpitting. So let's look at the actual meta:

Empire: knights or gigantic halbard horde.
Britonnia: knights.
Dwarfs: warriors are equal. Until you add a runesmith and remember they might have hatred and either +1s or parry. Longbeards laugh at them. Don't forget that saurus warriors will have been shot to sh1t before they reach the dwarfs.
Woc: let's not go there.
beastmen: actually offers a fair fighting chance due to their low strenght.
DOC: entirely depends on locus on plague bearers and the reign of chaos table. Fair match i think?
Skaven: I'd love to fight clan rats, but storm vermin have superior WS and same strenght while being cheaper. They'll win due to more numbers.
Tomb kings: skeletons will stay away, archers might do a number and chariots can potentially wreck havoc.
OK: S6 + impact hit + stomp? Yeah good luck with that.
Dark elfs: witch elfs will tear them a new one, dark riders stay on rsnge.
high elfs: will use ranged units and/or silverHelms.
Wood elfs: will stay on range.
VC: yeah I think saurus would do well here.
O&G: savage orcs can be brutal but if they're beat in first round of combat they'll just be S3 no frenzy. Csn go both ways tbh.

So what saurus warriors wants are WS3/S3/T3 because they'll eat those, unfortunately they'll either meet knights, try and get to ranged units or fight vastly cheaper units who just offers a fair fight.

We take skinks because they're much much more mobile, csn deal with many more targets and not die in droves against knights because they'll be double fleeing. We don't take saurus warriors because people have realized how versatile skinks truly are and how bad regular M4 blocks can be. If the saurus warriors had access to great weapons or maybe WS4 + magi banner we might seen more of them, but they can't. Instead we take skinks and some people might take templeguards who are much superior to the warriors.

Getting a proper match up for warriors is quite hard. It can be done, but skinks are the more safe choice and be more active in more phases (gain board control + shooting).

So I kinda disagree with you here :)

naloth
28-07-2014, 18:20
We don't take saurus warriors because people have realized how versatile skinks truly are and how bad regular M4 blocks can be. If the saurus warriors had access to great weapons or maybe WS4 + magi banner we might seen more of them, but they can't. Instead we take skinks and some people might take templeguards who are much superior to the warriors.


Yes, largely this. Saurus are fairly slow and expensive relative to what they will be facing. Unless you have a unit that can take them, they are more easily avoided/shot/magicked to death. Saurus aren't really built do accrue static resolution either since the stats favor bulking up on attacks/frontage. TG conversely are stubborn, get a magic banner, usually have a Slann to attract attention, and are priced a touch better for WS4/S5.

Malagor
28-07-2014, 19:03
What? No they wouldn't. We'd just take templeguards and keep the skinks.
Yes, they do.
My saurus warriors has performed well at the moment using this very tactic.
So I would suggest that you stop using the term "we" because at where I play among the LM players Saurus warriors is the popular core choice.

Myster2
28-07-2014, 19:28
The new skink cloud list is winning so people are taking it. One of the reasons lizardmen are so good at avoidance is because of cold blooded and 10 blocks of skinks mean you can double flee all day and nothing can charge you.

All that being said I keep seeing new lizardmen players do units of 20-25 saurus, get into a combat with elves and loose half the block or more before they ever get to swing. This leads to the idea that saurus suck which isn't true. Saurus do well as long as you:
1) Make units big. I'm liking 36 with ranks of 6.
2) Support with a scar vet
3) Or support with magic (improving WS by 1 goes a very long way. For truely scary Wysann's is hard for any army to deal with).
4) In the 20-30 games i've played since the new book the "has to pursue" has never been an issue while every now and then you will get a combat phase with predatory fighter that is truely crazy.
5) Purple sun generally = GG. Stop it if you can, if not shake hands and call it a day. Pit of shades and Craks call (spelling?) are annoying but generally not as damaging.

-Totenkopf-
28-07-2014, 19:43
Can someone please explain this double-flee mechanic? Have I been missing something blatantly obvious in the rules?

EvanM
28-07-2014, 19:51
I like what the guy said about how saurus are never fighting the unit they want to be fighting. They have well known Achilles heel in init and their good stats (toughness and strength) are just not good enough in this meta as most armies just avoid taking t3 s3 ws3 ANYTHING like it's the plague.

I'd say you probably need a block of 35+ with a scar vet to be competitive and hope that the enmy doesn't make you take init tests or shoot half of your unit.
I think their issues lie in bad meta not bad unit (from what i've heard here)

-Totenkopf-
28-07-2014, 19:51
The new skink cloud list is winning so people are taking it. One of the reasons lizardmen are so good at avoidance is because of cold blooded and 10 blocks of skinks mean you can double flee all day and nothing can charge you.

All that being said I keep seeing new lizardmen players do units of 20-25 saurus, get into a combat with elves and loose half the block or more before they ever get to swing. This leads to the idea that saurus suck which isn't true. Saurus do well as long as you:
1) Make units big. I'm liking 36 with ranks of 6.
2) Support with a scar vet
3) Or support with magic (improving WS by 1 goes a very long way. For truely scary Wysann's is hard for any army to deal with).
4) In the 20-30 games i've played since the new book the "has to pursue" has never been an issue while every now and then you will get a combat phase with predatory fighter that is truely crazy.
5) Purple sun generally = GG. Stop it if you can, if not shake hands and call it a day. Pit of shades and Craks call (spelling?) are annoying but generally not as damaging.

I agree. when I take saurus, I take big blocks.. I have a hundred or so and I have fielded them all. It looked awesome. I couldn't agree more with your last 5 points either. They MUST be buffed.. Any of the buffs from Light, Life or Beasts make them truly elite. Now that can be said for a lot of units in the game, but we have access to the fat frog who can make it happen. VS ogres and such, I prefer S and T buffs, vs elf types, I prefer WS and I buffs.. VS WoC I can go either way, but I like hexing them, VS large blocks I like any of the above but prefer Light magic for better hits and more attacks.

I think that they had a chance with the new book to do so much with the saurus. LM have so few core choices, all good, but still so few. Adding equipment options or bringing back marks of the old ones would have made such a big difference in what I feel is a bland core section..

-Totenkopf-
28-07-2014, 19:52
The new skink cloud list is winning so people are taking it. One of the reasons lizardmen are so good at avoidance is because of cold blooded and 10 blocks of skinks mean you can double flee all day and nothing can charge you.

All that being said I keep seeing new lizardmen players do units of 20-25 saurus, get into a combat with elves and loose half the block or more before they ever get to swing. This leads to the idea that saurus suck which isn't true. Saurus do well as long as you:
1) Make units big. I'm liking 36 with ranks of 6.
2) Support with a scar vet
3) Or support with magic (improving WS by 1 goes a very long way. For truely scary Wysann's is hard for any army to deal with).
4) In the 20-30 games i've played since the new book the "has to pursue" has never been an issue while every now and then you will get a combat phase with predatory fighter that is truely crazy.
5) Purple sun generally = GG. Stop it if you can, if not shake hands and call it a day. Pit of shades and Craks call (spelling?) are annoying but generally not as damaging.

I agree. when I take saurus, I take big blocks.. I have a hundred or so and I have fielded them all. It looked awesome. I couldn't agree more with your last 5 points either. They MUST be buffed.. Any of the buffs from Light, Life or Beasts make them truly elite. Now that can be said for a lot of units in the game, but we have access to the fat frog who can make it happen. VS ogres and such, I prefer S and T buffs, vs elf types, I prefer WS and I buffs.. VS WoC I can go either way, but I like hexing them, VS large blocks I like any of the above but prefer Light magic for better hits and more attacks.

I think that they had a chance with the new book to do so much with the saurus. LM have so few core choices, all good, but still so few. Adding equipment options or bringing back marks of the old ones would have made such a big difference in what I feel is a bland core section..

EvanM
28-07-2014, 19:53
I like what the guy said about how saurus are never fighting the unit they want to be fighting. They have well known Achilles heel in init and their good stats (toughness and strength) are just not good enough in this meta as most armies just avoid taking t3 s3 ws3 ANYTHING like it's the plague.

I'd say you probably need a block of 35+ with a scar vet to be competitive and hope that the enmy doesn't make you take init tests or shoot half of your unit.
I think their issues lie in bad meta not bad unit (from what i've heard here)

liddan
28-07-2014, 20:18
If you invest too much in a huge low movement block, they risk being avoided (and in saurus' case redirected because of that "has to overrun unless you have a skink nearby"-business) and if you invest too little in low initiative units, the low initiative becomes a problem.

Also, pit of shades.

Malagor
28-07-2014, 20:26
Which is why LM got good spells that can avoid that problem.
But overall, I got no problem smacking seaguard or spearmen silly with my saurus warriors even without buffing them.
Problem with HE is usually the bolt throwers, silver helms or reavers and 1-2 units of skink skirmishers with javelins can annoy them but never their core infantry.

pinktaco
28-07-2014, 20:37
That would highly depend on your meta. IC knights will crush them, so will a proper silverhelm bus, how about ironguts, witch elfs, 50-60 storm vermins, Britonnia knights or glade guards? And don't use the magic argument.

Now to not only be super pissy about this: if I were to use them it would be 35 models, 7 wide with spears. That'll be 29 hits if we include PF and the champ. However to make this have a chance against cavalry and monsters I'd also take an oldblood with AoD and +2S sword and the luck stone. Oh and a shield. He'd be a 1+/4+ with rerollable armour save and S7.

What I fear about using such a unit is going up against MSU armies. The saurus can't catch them and I don't want to rely on the slann killing them. So we'd easily have to go above the 25% core tax.
Alternatively one can also use that setup and perhaps have a lot of terradons, salamanders and cameleons (oppose to regular skinks and templeguards).
I'd have to try it out just for fun some time. I don't mind trying things out, but I'm also realistic about what saurus can and cannot do.

EvanM
28-07-2014, 20:52
I just really like the unit so it's hard to let it go, even though I don't even play lizzies.

Maybe a good thought is tothink of them as objective takers. My new mission idea is simple, it's basically 1 objective middle of the map for 1000vps at the end of the game. Go ahead and never fight the saurus but give up that objective and you lose (probably).

Malagor
28-07-2014, 20:52
I'm not saying they are like chaos warriors, they are not. Infact against CW they will get their tails handed to them.
But they aren't useless and against certain opponents they are very good infact.
I always bring atleast 30, usually 36 with hw/s. They form a nice block and will hold against most core or even special infantry long enough for support to arrive.
And funny you should mention Bretonnia knights, my last match was against Bretonnia where 11 grail knights charged my Scar-vet on Carnosaur, Scar-vet lost but held easily and along comes my SW block right in their flank and destroyed the grail knights. My other SW block got charged by KOTR and my SW won the fight.

EvanM
28-07-2014, 21:02
I just really like the unit so it's hard to let it go, even though I don't even play lizzies.

Maybe a good thought is tothink of them as objective takers. My new mission idea is simple, it's basically 1 objective middle of the map for 1000vps at the end of the game. Go ahead and never fight the saurus but give up that objective and you lose (probably).

Malagor
28-07-2014, 21:11
You can stop repeating yourself Evan.
And there is nothing to let go. Saurus are good. If you like them then use them and build your list around it.

-Totenkopf-
28-07-2014, 22:56
I'd still like to know what this double flee thing is all about..

MOMUS
29-07-2014, 02:47
The new skink cloud list is winning so people are taking it.


Skink cloud is nothing new, its been around for along time.

My main gripe with saurus is not only that they hit last, they can't hit the broad side of a barn door! WS 3 is really quite poor and the predatory fighter bonus is a waste of time.


I'd still like to know what this double flee thing is all about..

its a tactic where I line up two units against your one unit. You charge my unit A, which flees over my unit B. Then you redirect into my unit B which flees through my unit A. You now fail a charge as you can't make contact. It's described in this thread:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?396257-The-best-units-in-warhammer!/page2


I'm not saying they are like chaos warriors, they are not.


Which is good point, CW are fantastic and how often do we see them?
Also in your example how did your carnosaur not die turn 1 to a double treb to the face?

WhispersofBlood
29-07-2014, 03:46
Which is why LM got good spells that can avoid that problem.
But overall, I got no problem smacking seaguard or spearmen silly with my saurus warriors even without buffing them.
Problem with HE is usually the bolt throwers, silver helms or reavers and 1-2 units of skink skirmishers with javelins can annoy them but never their core infantry.

What will you use them for when your opponents realize this and stop taking Spearmen and Sea guard? Believe me they will, and it will only take until they find some money.

Moss
29-07-2014, 05:14
would you agree that In even semi competitive circles skinks are usually seen as the superior choice?
Yes, I agree with that; they usually are seen as the more competitive choice. I just don't care for that blanket statement that insinuates that (almost) everyone plays avoidance Lizardmen, because even this thread is proof that plenty of people use and win with infantry and monsters.

People claiming that Saurus are inferior (and then go on to list all the units that can beat Saurus in combat) pretend that you're bringing only Saurus. You're not; you're bringing Skinks and Terradons and Stegadons and Salamanders too. The beauty of the LM book is that each unit has a role and if you have half a brain, you can win with a "balanced" army; there's no reason to do the internet min/max thing with Skinks only.

The thing that makes Saurus a good choice is that Skinks are so awesome. They're the best redirector/ant-redirector in the game. If I have (4) units of Skinks and a few other support units, there's no reason I should have to fight your Chaos Warriors with my Saurus. Yes, Chaos Warriors will handily beat my Saurus in combat, but if you're managing to get your Chaos Warriors into combat with my Saurus, there's something wrong with me. That's just one of those games where I know to hug my Saurus to my TG. I'll beat you with my short-ranged missile fire and magic. On the flip side, those Saurus will have a field day against VC core infantry. And Empire core infantry (I'm sorry, anyone claiming that NOBODY uses non-knight core infantry is lying).

I don't know... I guess my point is that while it may be easier to win with an avoidance list, it certainly isn't necessary.

EvanM
29-07-2014, 05:42
yeah i play empire with no knight core at all (only 3 demis and 9 rieksguard at 2.5k pts) and saurus scare me. skink screens scare me less because i have my archers that cost the same number of points as your skinks they are just..... slower.... and no poison shots..... yeah wow that was depressing.

anyway the other thing is that we compared saurus to a lot of units and many of them dont even get taken anymore either. like choas warriors? what are those? oh you mean the slow guys that are just really expensive cannon fodder because they cant get into combat fast enough...

Malagor
29-07-2014, 07:50
Which is good point, CW are fantastic and how often do we see them?
Also in your example how did your carnosaur not die turn 1 to a double treb to the face?
Much like Saurus warriors, I haven't seen a single WoC player that didn't have atleast 1 unit of CW(16-20 models) so I see them all the time.
And the bret player had 11 GKs which means he can't take 2 trebuchets but the one he had did what they do most of the time which is unable to hit the broadside of a oil tanker.


What will you use them for when your opponents realize this and stop taking Spearmen and Sea guard? Believe me they will, and it will only take until they find some money.
I don't believe you because no one where I play remove one of their units just because they lost against 1 particular unit.
Spearmen or seaguards are a unit that most HE players bring even if they have silver helms, they know they die like crazy once they get into combat with them but they bring them anyway and make it work.

ewar
29-07-2014, 13:25
Interesting sidenote - Dan Heelan won best LM player at the Midlands GT, 18/106 overall (weekend just gone) running a list with 24 saurus and 24 TG, couple of skink units, couple of cowboys. Having seen the filth other people were running that is an amazing performance with that list.

I always like running my saurus blocks, yes they're not the optimal choice, I think everyone knows that. But at anything below the most extreme level of competitiveness they do just fine with a little bit of though. I like 40 in horde with spears as an anchor for refused flank - they might not kill too much but nothing really gets through them and they're not overly expensive. Plus, they look freaking awesome ranked up like that. I love bigger games when I run my 3 hordes (2 saurus, 1 TG) as they cover half the board.

WhispersofBlood
29-07-2014, 13:28
I don't believe you because no one where I play remove one of their units just because they lost against 1 particular unit.
Spearmen or seaguards are a unit that most HE players bring even if they have silver helms, they know they die like crazy once they get into combat with them but they bring them anyway and make it work.

Its not just one unit, its a long list of other combat blocks that dominate them. I haven't seen Spearmen in any meaningful fashion since 6th edition and even then Silver helms and archers were the dominant choices. Check out Ulthuan.net you will find hundreds of army lists by hundreds of players and maybe 20 armies that include either. Archer is superior in most ways and the ways that they aren't don't matter. For instance in the case of Saurus Warriors 21 Archers would be better in every situation and every game that a unit of 22+ Spearmen or Sea guard might see action. And, vastly superior in many that the latter are useless in.

So again what will you Saurus warriors do when your opponents stop giving you their optimal target?

Malagor
29-07-2014, 14:30
I cannot answer that since that hasn't happened and won't happen.

Jal
29-07-2014, 15:18
Interesting sidenote - Dan Heelan won best LM player at the Midlands GT, 18/106 overall (weekend just gone) running a list with 24 saurus and 24 TG, couple of skink units, couple of cowboys. Having seen the filth other people were running that is an amazing performance with that list.

I always like running my saurus blocks, yes they're not the optimal choice, I think everyone knows that. But at anything below the most extreme level of competitiveness they do just fine with a little bit of though. I like 40 in horde with spears as an anchor for refused flank - they might not kill too much but nothing really gets through them and they're not overly expensive. Plus, they look freaking awesome ranked up like that. I love bigger games when I run my 3 hordes (2 saurus, 1 TG) as they cover half the board.

I beat Dan game1 with my Dark Elves. Main point of discussion was Dan talking about how he wishes he had more Skinks painted so he didn't have to run Saurus

allergies
29-07-2014, 15:19
If you play in a competitive environment saurus warriors should be left home. If you play in a noncompetitive environment (or at least army power level wise) then you may be able to get away with bringing saurus. I think it's important for new players to see the distinction, because someone who drops a couple hundred dollars on an army that gets trashed, is more likely to give up on the game. So I think people should be honest with what works and doesn't work in different environments. If someone is playing in a competitive environments and wants to also participate in the tournament scene, they should be aware that combat block based lizardmen armies generally don't work.

MOMUS
29-07-2014, 17:42
Also dan heelan is a VERY expierenced player I think that has more to do with his placing than the fact he ran a saurus block.

Raf harbinson came third in tribute with a skink cloud and third(?) in the SCGT with skinks.

Myster2
29-07-2014, 18:07
Skink cloud is nothing new, its been around for along time.

I agree but at least over here it died out for a little while with the new book and the slann changes. If I remember right it used to be a death slann and a metal slann, one would go in a bunker of some sort and one would go ethereal. Having the ability to get an extra dice per spell attempt (was it called harmonic convergence like the new ability or did it have another name, i don't remember) would mean that your death slann would cast all day long and your metal would kill knights and use final transmutation for points.

The new skink cloud that i've been seeing is a slann with high magic and tetto ekko.

The bearded one
29-07-2014, 20:11
I think saurus are a lot tougher than people give them credit. Sure, they're not going to be surviving punishment from executioner hordes and daemon princes, but they can actually take things like charging silver helms on the teeth and come out kicking. I did it the other day, with a small block of 20 saurus. Know the type of enemies you can take, which ones you can't, and which ones need support, and I'm sure you'll be able to find some ways to make those 2A str4 t4 4+save troops work..

Trivia; I did some math, 20 (or 15, or 10, or 200) witch elves 5 wide against 20 (or more) saurus 5 wide. After lots of complicated math on the witch elves due to 2 different rerolls, and the effect rerolls have on poison, I eventually deduced the witch elves would do 9.62 wounds, translating to 4.81 kills (parry not included).

Saurus would do 6.66 back if they had spears, or 5 if they had handweapons (but then the casualties inflicted by the witch elves would go down by about 0.8). Note, I didn't even include predatory fighter in the saurus' math, so they actually inflict a little bit more damage. They will be able to outfight witch elves.

ewar
29-07-2014, 21:07
I beat Dan game1 with my Dark Elves. Main point of discussion was Dan talking about how he wishes he had more Skinks painted so he didn't have to run Saurus

I understand that, I don't think anyone is arguing that saurus are a more competitive choice than skinks. However, the way some people paint options in books as entirely useless is a bit disingenuous, which is why I wanted to highlight that a good player can still do very well with infantry even in a very competitive environment.

I think there is a difference between players who have warhammer armies and occasionally go to tournaments and dedicated tournament players who build an army for that exact purpose. I finished top Tomb King at the Midlands GT (not saying a huge amount, there were only 3 of us! and 46th overall) however most of my gaming is with mates and I build an army for friendly gaming and painting for the most part. I do like going to big tournaments though and the problem I have is that I can't spam the units required because I'm not going to spend >100 on Necro knights that I will only use a couple of times per year at a tournament.

So many players will make the most competitive list they can within the restrictions of the average model collection - rather than writing the most optimal list they can and then going to get the models for it. This is a big divide between the avid tournament goers and the occasional attendees.

liddan
29-07-2014, 21:36
The reason you see so few CW is that they have nurgle chariots which are absurdly good in core. nurgle CWs with halberds or gws would be an auto include in alot of the other armies.

pinktaco
30-07-2014, 02:18
I think saurus are a lot tougher than people give them credit. Sure, they're not going to be surviving punishment from executioner hordes and daemon princes, but they can actually take things like charging silver helms on the teeth and come out kicking. I did it the other day, with a small block of 20 saurus. Know the type of enemies you can take, which ones you can't, and which ones need support, and I'm sure you'll be able to find some ways to make those 2A str4 t4 4+save troops work..

Trivia; I did some math, 20 (or 15, or 10, or 200) witch elves 5 wide against 20 (or more) saurus 5 wide. After lots of complicated math on the witch elves due to 2 different rerolls, and the effect rerolls have on poison, I eventually deduced the witch elves would do 9.62 wounds, translating to 4.81 kills (parry not included).

Saurus would do 6.66 back if they had spears, or 5 if they had handweapons (but then the casualties inflicted by the witch elves would go down by about 0.8). Note, I didn't even include predatory fighter in the saurus' math, so they actually inflict a little bit more damage. They will be able to outfight witch elves.

What? If you want to do math on witch elfs then include proper units:

Witch elf horde + cauldron and death hag (grants them super frenzy, reroll all to hit and 5+ ward). Oh and they have AP banner.

A saurus warrior unit of 30 models, spear, 6 wide.

Now I couldn't quite remember how many witch elfs that could actuslly hit when I did the math, but assuming 7 wide can hit, not counting poison OR champion and hag they'll kill off 13 models before they're hit. Thats almost half the saurus!

The Saurus (now down to 17 models) can hit with 26 attacks (counting both PF and champ) and does 6 wounds back.

This is in every way making it advantageous for the saurus and hardly remotely impressive. Elfs have 17-18 CR and saurus have 9 and arent considered steadfast so they'll have to roll snake eyes.

You might of course be lucky to see small 10 man elf units, but most of the time when we're taking witch elfs it's the big nasty units. That's what people are afraid of. Not something that can accidently die to shooting.

allergies
30-07-2014, 02:32
In all fairness, as much as I agree that saurus are not that great, the big witch elf unit isn't either. The most competitive dark elf lists now usually take a small unit of witches 10-20 sometimes with flaming banner. The real problems are the peg knights, and warlock/dark rider character buses. The saurus without a hero will get tanked by a peg knight, or just completely ignored. The argument I keep seeing, is that vs the right unit they are ok, however with low movement the chance they get into that combat are fairly low.

Captain Collius
30-07-2014, 03:20
I use a unit of 30 saurus sword and board. They serve a purpose as a tough tarpit that hold a unit still so my many stegs can smash face. Skinks may do the job better in most jobs but when it comes to holding the line steadfast ld 8 saurus who can do some damage are useful. They broke my friends Ogre horde with a well timed late game charge.

DrMooreFlava
31-07-2014, 08:27
So it seems if people are in a super competitive environment, people tend to avoid large and chancy combats that can be swung by the total power of one key spell (some people call this WAAC). So skinks are the natural choice to avoid such a liability. However, if you play in an environment where people pay and play to see: large combats, large units, and prefer their opponent to man up and "Get in There", said every Orc ever; Saurus are a great choice. I support both sides of the argument, the whole point of existence is to adapt and reproduce. So adapt to your environment and then reproduce wins, you are welcome.

Personally, I think a block of 39 saurus with bsb is mandatory. I don't run TG or a slaan. I run 2 lvl2 beast priests. Against many opponents it is important to have something to draw their attention toward what they find threatening. If you know your opponent fears your horde, using it to your advantage is easy, especially with the chaff, magic and monsters LM have available.

The skink core is a guerrilla style of fighting. Much more difficult to master and it can get ripped up by certain bad match ups. Like an Empire army with 2 units of demigryphs and a few cannons for anything big you bring. Or a treason of Tzeentch WoC army, you could lose on turn one with some crappy rolls (skink LD is a liability like saurus initiative is a liability).

MOMUS
31-07-2014, 11:44
The skink core is a guerrilla style of fighting. Much more difficult to master and it can get ripped up by certain bad match ups. Like an Empire army with 2 units of demigryphs and a few cannons for anything big you bring. Or a treason of Tzeentch WoC army, you could lose on turn one with some crappy rolls (skink LD is a liability like saurus initiative is a liability).

That empire example is a great match up cannons get to shoot off a skink each turn and the Demi gryphs get their beaks kicked in by scarvets.
Treason is a very nasty spell especially now skinks have -1ld compared to the last book.

DrMooreFlava
01-08-2014, 01:20
That empire example is a great match up cannons get to shoot off a skink each turn and the Demi gryphs get their beaks kicked in by scarvets.
Treason is a very nasty spell especially now skinks have -1ld compared to the last book.

If you are running skinks and only skinks... But if you try to bring anything monster wise in your special/rare sections, Empire has a hard counter for it. Scarvet cowboys are also good targets for cannons and especially for hellblasters. They also have lower initiative than demigryphs, if the demis get the charge it could spell the end. So Agree to disagree on the Empire example. On a side note, yep treason army scares me.

pinktaco
01-08-2014, 08:31
If you are running skinks and only skinks... But if you try to bring anything monster wise in your special/rare sections, Empire has a hard counter for it. Scarvet cowboys are also good targets for cannons and especially for hellblasters. They also have lower initiative than demigryphs, if the demis get the charge it could spell the end. So Agree to disagree on the Empire example. On a side note, yep treason army scares me.

Scar vet who takes a charge from demigryphs will have 54% to take wound. The demigryphs will take 1.7 wounds each combat phase. Hardly the end and even worse if they don't get the charge. Now take 3 of those.

MOMUS
01-08-2014, 20:37
If you are running skinks and only skinks... But if you try to bring anything monster wise in your special/rare sections, Empire has a hard counter for it. Scarvet cowboys are also good targets for cannons and especially for hellblasters. They also have lower initiative than demigryphs, if the demis get the charge it could spell the end. So Agree to disagree on the Empire example. On a side note, yep treason army scares me.

Lower initative? That wouldn't bother any vet as they're almost always armed with great weapons, add in dawnstone/charm shield/armour of destiny/fortune and those demigryphs are mince meat.
tooled up cowboys can easily deal with any MC including skull crushers.
And as pinktaco said you can for three vets in most lists AND an oldblood.

people rarely take monsters in a skink cloud list cuz:
a. They are over costed and/or useless
b. In a cloud list they will be the only target and be cannoned off turn 1.

WhispersofBlood
02-08-2014, 01:34
Lower initative? That wouldn't bother any vet as they're almost always armed with great weapons, add in dawnstone/charm shield/armour of destiny/fortune and those demigryphs are mince meat.
tooled up cowboys can easily deal with any MC including skull crushers.
And as pinktaco said you can for three vets in most lists AND an oldblood.

people rarely take monsters in a skink cloud list cuz:
a. They are over costed and/or useless
b. In a cloud list they will be the only target and be cannoned off turn 1.

Without 1+ armour and Dawnstone or a 4++ a scarvet is likely to take a wound and lose combat, as he isn't likely to do more than 2 wounds with 4 attacks. Just to be clear, against SC he's much worse as he is hitting on 4's and facing 12 S5 attacks.

DrMooreFlava
02-08-2014, 04:37
Lower initative? That wouldn't bother any vet as they're almost always armed with great weapons, add in dawnstone/charm shield/armour of destiny/fortune and those demigryphs are mince meat.
tooled up cowboys can easily deal with any MC including skull crushers.
And as pinktaco said you can for three vets in most lists AND an oldblood.

people rarely take monsters in a skink cloud list cuz:
a. They are over costed and/or useless
b. In a cloud list they will be the only target and be cannoned off turn 1.

So then what in the devil do you take in a cloud list other than salamanders.

pinktaco
02-08-2014, 08:09
Without 1+ armour and Dawnstone or a 4++ a scarvet is likely to take a wound and lose combat, as he isn't likely to do more than 2 wounds with 4 attacks. Just to be clear, against SC he's much worse as he is hitting on 4's and facing 12 S5 attacks.

You can easily have 2 SVs with 1+/4+ and one with +1 and dawnstone. Skullcrushers will on average do 0,50 wound each combat phase against a 1+/4+ SV and 0,33 against the dawnstone. The dawnstone wins out when it's only S5 since it'll be a rerollable 3+ compared to 3+ followed by 4+.

Demigryphs don't have the luxury of having as many high strenght attacks and while they'll do more to the armour save they they're having a hard time against T5.

Mournfangs without gws will average 0,33 wounds. S4 sucks.

It is not unheard of SVa killing off a unit of MC and again, this is just the SV (which there'll likely be more than one of). An oldblood will be much harder to take down and will on average pump out 6 S7 attacks.

pinktaco
02-08-2014, 08:18
So then what in the devil do you take in a cloud list other than salamanders.

The current list I'll be trying out have a unit of templeguards 30+ razor banner), terradons, salamanders and *maybe* cameleons. You have to consider that most LM armies will have 1000+ pts worth of characters (4-500pts slann, 2-3 SVs and 1-2 priests).

The idea is to poison and magic off things, using SVs where necessary and then you send in the guards to clean up at turn 5/6 depending on how it goes. LM can easily be just as annoying to play against as wood elfs.

MOMUS
02-08-2014, 19:14
So then what in the devil do you take in a cloud list other than salamanders.

Slann
oldblood
cowboy vets
priest
terradon chiefs (maybe)
skirmishers
cohorts
terradons
chameleons
sallies
razordons (maybe)

Captain Collius
02-08-2014, 20:25
Rippersactyl's also have some uses

Clockwork
02-08-2014, 20:41
Yeah, Saurus are distinctly "okay." If you run them (and I do, usually), then you're not completely hobbling yourself: as other posters have said, you just need to be aware of what they can and cannot do.

The issue with them, as expressed by the OP, is that a lot of people look at 2 attacks with S/T 4 and 4+ armour save and think that's pretty good - and it can be. But the WS and I tends to get overlooked. Why the Old Ones genetically engineered a warrior race which are outfought by those infamously skilled warriors as... Warhounds, Great Eagles and Cave Squigs, or why they made them more chivalrous than the most honorable of Bretonnian knights to let everyone but Zombies and Great Weapon weilders swing at them first, is anybody's guess. But the fact of the matter is whilst it looks good on paper, half of those S4 attacks will miss against most opponents - and that's even assuming there's any Saurus left to attack. So you have a combat unit which is priced on that basis, but isn't actually very good at it and which can be taken apart by any other dedicated combat unit, and often at an equivalent or similar points value. Sure, these are things that you can address with magic (notably, Speed of Light, Miasma and Hand of Glory), or add a few Saurus heroes to give them some punch... but Temple Guard or Kroxigor make for much better recipients of those same buffs, and Saurus heroes can do just as well if not better running around on their own without their slow and somewhat backwards degenerative brethren around (although if it said in the background that Saurus had degenerated, that would make a great deal of more sense).

Then consider that with their 25mm bases and battlefield presence, that they tend to attract just the sort of attention that they can't really stand up against. Add in the fact that they are basically free power dice for Purple Sun - which, lets face it, is one of the most popular spells/lores out there - are S4 in what was an increasingly 1+ AS meta (I'm not sure to what extent the Elf books have changed this...), and have to compete for Core points with the almighty Skink and... well, it should be easy to see why there aren't all that popular.

But they are still T4/4+ so they don't to all that bad as an anvil (putting aside the fact that most things will hit them easily). Of course, you can get two Skink cohorts for twice the cost of one Saurus, and whilst they die twice as quickly its not all that different to high Strength, plus they have good mobility, poisoned shots, and aren't as vulnerable to Purple Sun. I go back and forth on which makes a better tarpit/anvil, but I usually have a mix of both anyway because a) I like how Saurus look and b) I can't bring myself to paint anymore goddamn Skinks.

Edit: It might be relevant to share the recent tournament experience that I had with them. Game 1 I think they got run off by either Demigryphs or a Steam Tank. Game 2 they actually managed to fight a Black Knight bus to a standstill. Game 3 they beat a unit of Crypt Horrors, and then got screamed off. Game 4 they didn't get shot up by Glade Guard. Game 5 they beat a unit of Demigryphs, and then got run off by a Knight baby bus (although it was a close call). Note that there was an Oldblood hanging out with them who did most of the work, and my expectations may be extremely low, but they didn't do nearly as badly as I expected them to.

pinktaco
03-08-2014, 08:49
Well luckily an OB can still have a 1+/4+ whole being on foot. Dat scaly skin of 4+ ^^
In fact he can have +2S sword, AoD and luckstone along with a shield. That's quite badass for a footie. It would be one of the reason for me to field a saurus unit. 35 models and 7 wide with spears and that OB. At least it's something I'm thinking could be decent. Pop a wyssans on them and you have a fvck ton of S5 attacks.

Clockwork
03-08-2014, 10:34
That's 720 points though, including the Skink Priest. I'd hope something costing that much would be good...

pinktaco
03-08-2014, 13:12
We're discussing saurus warriors here anyway. Nobody said it was the most optimal decision.

Besides counting a priest within the price is silly. We need a scroll caddy anyway and the unit can do something without the buff. 1+ AS models will be greeted by a S7 oldblood.

It's unfortunate though that saurus warriors cannot at least take any banner. Armour piercing would've given them some chance against armoured units.

Clockwork
03-08-2014, 13:23
What about AoD, Dawn Stone, Potion of Strength, shield for the 1+ re-rollable, 4++, one shot S7 vs 1+?

More magic banners in the Lizardmen book would go a long way. Standard of Discipline, Banner of Swiftness, Razor Standard, War Banner, Gleaming Pennant would all be good choices for Saurus/Cold Ones without any one being a 'no-brainer.'

MOMUS
03-08-2014, 16:37
+2 strength sword? Potion of strength? how about just a great weapon for cheap S7 all the time?

probably most optimum OB build is GW, cold one, AoD, dawnstone, OTS. That does eat some Slann points though.

Clockwork
03-08-2014, 16:54
With a Great Weapon he won't get a 1+ AS, and with a Cold One he won't get a LoS in the unit.

DrMooreFlava
03-08-2014, 19:46
yes he will. 4+ scaley, heavy armor from AoD and mounted = 1+AS And I believe he was just giving an example of the optimal old blood not optimal old blood within a unit of saurus. At a certain point an old blood can perform better on his own vs deathstar type units because saurus end up feeding the opponent combat res.

Clockwork
03-08-2014, 20:36
yes he will. 4+ scaley, heavy armor from AoD and mounted = 1+AS And I believe he was just giving an example of the optimal old blood not optimal old blood within a unit of saurus. At a certain point an old blood can perform better on his own vs deathstar type units because saurus end up feeding the opponent combat res.

I know he'll get a 1+ mounted, but the poster before that was talking about having him on foot in a unit.

Captain Collius
03-08-2014, 23:14
Well luckily an OB can still have a 1+/4+ whole being on foot. Dat scaly skin of 4+ ^^
In fact he can have +2S sword, AoD and luckstone along with a shield. That's quite badass for a footie. It would be one of the reason for me to field a saurus unit. 35 models and 7 wide with spears and that OB. At least it's something I'm thinking could be decent. Pop a wyssans on them and you have a fvck ton of S5 attacks.

Fist of all you cant have armor of destiny Dawnstone and ogre blade that is more than the 100 pts you are allowed you can run sword of might dawnstone potion of foolhardiness armor of destiny.

Or this armor of fortune ogre blade dawnstone shield.

pinktaco
04-08-2014, 11:45
Look again and prove me wrong. I said +2 and not +3.

Captain Collius
04-08-2014, 17:50
Armor of destiny and luckstone = 37.5 Skavenslaves Ogre blade(+2 s) is 20 ss. An Oldblood may take 50 ss of items. so again Armor of destiny 25 ss Dawnstone 12.5 ss OGre blade 20 ss.

Are you going to apologize?

Because giant blaade (+3) is 30 Skaven slaves and prohibits everyone from taking AoD.

hdctambien
04-08-2014, 22:36
Armor of destiny and luckstone = 37.5 Skavenslaves Ogre blade(+2 s) is 20 ss. An Oldblood may take 50 ss of items. so again Armor of destiny 25 ss Dawnstone 12.5 ss OGre blade 20 ss.

Are you going to apologize?

Because giant blaade (+3) is 30 Skaven slaves and prohibits everyone from taking AoD.

Pinktaco didn't say Dawnstone. He said Luckstone. Clockwork brought up the Dawnstone.

An Old Blood can indeed afford the Armor of Destiny, Ogre Blade, and a Luckstone as Pinktaco said.

An Old Blood can also afford the Armor of Destiny, Dawnstone, and Potion of Strength like Clockwork said.

Captain Collius
05-08-2014, 02:02
Fair enough but that means you have one shot at re-rolling armor that drastically reduces his survivability when you can take armor of fortune and dawnstone which allows him to tank out most infantry with a permanent (im assuming s5 since thats what most people aim for) 3+/3+/5++ rather than a 3+/4++

pinktaco
05-08-2014, 14:48
Armor of destiny and luckstone = 37.5 Skavenslaves Ogre blade(+2 s) is 20 ss. An Oldblood may take 50 ss of items. so again Armor of destiny 25 ss Dawnstone 12.5 ss OGre blade 20 ss.

Are you going to apologize?

Because giant blaade (+3) is 30 Skaven slaves and prohibits everyone from taking AoD.

You are a funny one ;) wanting me to apologize and not even being decent enough to do so yourself.

But hey at least it wasn't me who called someone out.

My build comes out at 95pts magic items.

Anyway I can't be bothered with this thread anymore.

**edit**
Against S6 or less dawnstone will be equally as good as a 4+ ward so yes dawnstone with armour of fortune is the more superior build against most units in the game.
At anyway rate my point was that the OB is quite badass even on foot.

Captain Collius
05-08-2014, 15:15
You are a funny one ;) wanting me to apologize and not even being decent enough to do so yourself.

But hey at least it wasn't me who called someone out.

My build comes out at 95pts magic items.

Anyway I can't be bothered with this thread anymore.

**edit**
Against S6 or less dawnstone will be equally as good as a 4+ ward so yes dawnstone with armour of fortune is the more superior build against most units in the game.
At anyway rate my point was that the OB is quite badass even on foot.

You are correct I did not apologize for my error.

I am sorry for misreading your post it was my error.

Also I agree the OB on foot is pretty cool.

MOMUS
06-08-2014, 00:53
Due to various comp packs being strict on mounted saurus characters I run my oldblood on foot with the AoD and the magic carpet :D

WeAreTheVikings
07-08-2014, 13:42
Skinks allow for a more tactical playstyle and also support the best strategy in Warhammer: Have the most dice to throw at the enemy.

Clockwork
07-08-2014, 19:12
Due to various comp packs being strict on mounted saurus characters I run my oldblood on foot with the AoD and the magic carpet :D

I tried that for a while. Brilliant fun. Nothing like an Oldblood charging off the starting line turn 1. Most notable event: charging a unit of Skullcrushers turn 1, killing one, running the rest of the board. Runner up: Charging into a bigger unit of Skullcrushers with an Exalted Hero turn 1, holding them up for several turns, breaking from combat and escaping, coming back to run two units of Warriors off. He was, for a long time, my no. 1 best bro.

Great Weapon or HW&S? I went for Dawn Stone, Enchanted Shield and Sword of Might to get the re-rollable 1+.

DrMooreFlava
08-08-2014, 04:30
Skinks allow for a more tactical playstyle and also support the best strategy in Warhammer: Have the most dice to throw at the enemy.

So true, +1. And I'll add that more dice rolling = more fun.