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PaulGreatrix
31-07-2014, 20:46
I run my Empire army with the classic hammer and anvil tactic in mind. Its taken me a long, long time to get my list right to compliment this strategy, but I think I finally cracked it and thought id share it with you.

I found my anvils were fine. Big blocks of infantry with lots of ranks which could hold out at least 2 - 3 turns against much stronger opposition. My problem was with my hammer. I cant stand the demigriff models, so have been desperate to use regular knights. The problem with them was that they simply were not punching through the opposing flanking unit in time to aid the central infantry. By the time they got there, the infantry were often routed and the game lost. Flanking units are difficult to beat at the best of times, never mind quickly. There is sooo much monstrous cav now, rocking high toughness and armour. For a while I was at a loss. And then I discovered Mr. Kurt "get the ****** out my way" Helborg.

My fortunes have changed enormously now. I have him ride with a unit of 8 inner circle knights and a warrior priest. I give the knights the steel standard to be sure they win the charge, and the ring of volans to the priest. This conflict for the flank usually happens early on in the battle, so im happy to throw all my power dice at cast spells in this region of the board. In the ring of volans I keep the blizzardy signature spell from Heavens, making my guys harder to hit and incurring a -1 L to my foe just to be double sure theyll break. The effect is devestating, especially if I get off hammer of sigmar too. S6 charge, with rerolls on hits and wounds, and Kurt Helborg cutting down an average of 3 dudes for a 6 combat res head start. The effect of all this is that im actually punching through the flanks in a single turn (my last game they went through a unit of crushers like they were made of wet paper). And when they arrive to deliver their hammer blow in aid of my infantry, it HURTS!

For me Kurt Helborg is the true hero of the Empire and a much better (cheaper) option than Franz. His only draw back is that he operates on the flank, where most cant loan his inspiring presence.

Thoughts and experiences with Helborg? And im curious to know other player's cavalry builds (in all armies) that help defeat the abundance of monstrous cav out there.

EvanM
31-07-2014, 21:39
What points value do you play at?

Kurt is simply expensive and I believe many people would field him if he wasn't such an investment.

I do believe that he probably helps out your hammer very effectively!

What exact bonuses does he bring again? Besides wielding a runefang and stuff.

With empire it has been very difficult to win without demis lately because our infantry needs support very quickly.

I'd love to see your list to see how u do it!

PaulGreatrix
01-08-2014, 05:38
Kurt is expensive, but he enables me to win games I find. His rune fang means his 4 attacks only need to Hit, because they wound atoumatically and allow no armour saves. He has the laurels of victory, which means every wound he causes doubles in terms of combat res. So you just roll 4 attacks, on average score 3 threes, and score 6 combat res. Hes a real unit breaker. The only draw back to him is hes only a 2+ armour save, compared to the rest of his unit at 1+.

My list looks roughly something like this;

30 halderiers with bsb
30 swordsmen with L4 Light mage
20 greatswords
2 hellblasters with engineers (these are viscious)
Hurricanum
8 inner circle knights with priest anf Helborg.

Without Helborg I used to struggle terribly to win. But with him arriving promptly to help my anvil infantry, things have looked up. My characters are key. The bsb and mage give their units an extra L point, and my mage goes into Speed of Light overdrive, so that with the Hurricanum, my humble infantry are hitting on 2's and being hit on 5's.

Double hellblaster is a little cheesy with engineers. They never blow up, and tear holes in armies. I ran the Metal lore for a while and used to cast Enchanted Blades of Aiban on the hellblasters so they hit on 2s.

I know a list without demis or a stank is almost unheard of, but im a purest, and if I dont like a model I wont buy it.

DrMooreFlava
01-08-2014, 06:19
Kurt is expensive, but he enables me to win games I find. His rune fang means his 4 attacks only need to Hit, because they wound atoumatically and allow no armour saves. He has the laurels of victory, which means every wound he causes doubles in terms of combat res. So you just roll 4 attacks, on average score 3 threes, and score 6 combat res. Hes a real unit breaker. The only draw back to him is hes only a 2+ armour save, compared to the rest of his unit at 1+.

My list looks roughly something like this;

30 halderiers with bsb
30 swordsmen with L4 Light mage
20 greatswords
2 hellblasters with engineers (these are viscious)
Hurricanum
8 inner circle knights with priest anf Helborg.

Without Helborg I used to struggle terribly to win. But with him arriving promptly to help my anvil infantry, things have looked up. My characters are key. The bsb and mage give their units an extra L point, and my mage goes into Speed of Light overdrive, so that with the Hurricanum, my humble infantry are hitting on 2's and being hit on 5's.

Double hellblaster is a little cheesy with engineers. They never blow up, and tear holes in armies. I ran the Metal lore for a while and used to cast Enchanted Blades of Aiban on the hellblasters so they hit on 2s.

I know a list without demis or a stank is almost unheard of, but im a purest, and if I dont like a model I wont buy it.

I don't run a stank of out pure principal. It isn't fun to play with or against IMO. Now Demigryphs are different, I understand and respect your aesthetic choice. However, playing an empire army without either of those two units is NOT unheard of. In fact, I feel like playing with any special character is not quite pick up game worthy (which is the only kind I play) and is rather unsportsmanlike to spring on an opponent especially without forewarning. You don't need a special character to carry you to a win.

The real weakness I see presented is your lack of warrior priest in your halberds which might be better off with 40 and drop your swords to 20 (bunker level). Your unit of greatswords is quite inadequate in number, 30+ seems mandatory them IMO. I don't know if you use it but the banner of discipline is one of the best resources for bonus leadership in the game, make sure to utilize it. Next is the two hellblasters, swap one out for a cannon and then drop an engineer for the warrior priest you desperately need in your core. You've got to explore options outside of your unit of knights, once the rest of your army becomes a threat, your knights will see tactical opportunities like they haven't seen before.

Wesser
01-08-2014, 08:51
I'd call that a very soft list indeed

I guess you're playing 2500 from the amount of Lord points you are spending, and you still only have one unit capable of fighting


Your army also heavily rely on people coming to you. Now most Elf armies won't have any reason for going within range of your Helblasters. Your army isn't really equipped for taking the fight to the enemy, so what do you do in that situation?

Also... why do your opponents go for the anvils instead of the hammer? Your other units aren't terribly dangerous, so why not just focus on your knights?

How do your infantry units function as anvils again? Greatswords might stick around a bit, but your State Troops are fairly small for that point level and I'd expected an actual combat unit to floor them utterly and robbing them of steadfast

Lastly Helborg won't cause too many casualties as he still needs to roll to hit (and gaining no benefit from hatred). His Laurels of Victory tends to be laughed away as most enemies will often be Steadfast/Stubborn. In other words he gets tarpitted fairly easily

PaulGreatrix
01-08-2014, 09:26
Yeah, I agree that a much bigger unit of halberdiers would be better than 2 units of 30. And I am too reliant on magic. My anvils are made survivable by Light magic, making them harder to hit. I forgot to mention the Great Cannon in my list. Between those 3 cannons, it forces the enemy to come to me.

The success of Helborg, I find, is not his ability to kill, but his ability break. Tarpitting, of course, is always a danger, and since running him, ive been lucky I guess in that he's faced with opposing cav rather than big blocks of infantry.

Ill agree that for the most part, the list IS soft. Its one of those instances where you buy an army when youre a warhammer freshman and later find its a bit mushy (I bought most of these guys when I was at college 15 years ago!) and dont want to spend a heap of cash putting the list right when you have other projects in mind. The double Hellblaster and Kurt Helborg have been acquisitions to patch up a shaky force and get the best out of them.

PaulGreatrix
01-08-2014, 09:34
I don't run a stank of out pure principal. It isn't fun to play with or against IMO. Now Demigryphs are different, I understand and respect your aesthetic choice. However, playing an empire army without either of those two units is NOT unheard of. In fact, I feel like playing with any special character is not quite pick up game worthy (which is the only kind I play) and is rather unsportsmanlike to spring on an opponent especially without forewarning. You don't need a special character to carry you to a win.

The real weakness I see presented is your lack of warrior priest in your halberds which might be better off with 40 and drop your swords to 20 (bunker level). Your unit of greatswords is quite inadequate in number, 30+ seems mandatory them IMO. I don't know if you use it but the banner of discipline is one of the best resources for bonus leadership in the game, make sure to utilize it. Next is the two hellblasters, swap one out for a cannon and then drop an engineer for the warrior priest you desperately need in your core. You've got to explore options outside of your unit of knights, once the rest of your army becomes a threat, your knights will see tactical opportunities like they haven't seen before.

I dont consider fielding special characters to be cheating. Special characters arent as mighty as they used to be. True, there are still a couple knocking about that are broken ( Archeon, Fateweaver), but on the whole, characters are more balanced now. Take Helborg; hes great at doing a job in breaking opposing cav, but hes still just as squishy as a regular knight, and IS killable.

I think a measure of how unbroken most special characters are is that the majority of players tend to want to build their own characters instead, and that many of those characters can squish special characters. Take a kitted out Vampire Lird for instance, or a revved up Doombull. Would you consider taking either of those as underhanded?

liddan
01-08-2014, 09:47
I guess you pay around 100 pts for laurels of victory, stubborn, 1 WS and the emperor's chosen (does that actually do anything? My book is in our gaming locale and the scan I have is really bad so I can't research it properly).

You lose one better armour save and a potion of speed which I maybe would've thrown on for challenges against elves, woc and HKB brets. Not too shabby for an empire special character, they are usually very lackluster imo.

Just to be clear I'm comparing him to a GM with runefang and shield.

My group plays without them since it's such a difference on how good they are between the different armies. Some are godly and some are just fluffy and overpriced compared to making your own character. Too bad sometimes though, I want to try the Khalida TK archer throng :) There are some fun ones you can build your army around like Khalida, Throgg, Epidemius etc.

PaulGreatrix
01-08-2014, 10:40
I hear ya. Im desperate to use Orion, but hes so expensive that you cant even take a L4 caster in 2400 point army, and he'd just get cannoned off the table. Such as shame as hes a real unique character and looks so much fun to play with; he's basically an uber mobile artilliary piece who bolt throws and grape shots. Maybe if they nurf cannons in the new rule set I might give him a run.

Lord Solar Plexus
01-08-2014, 11:49
Well, if it works for you, it obviously works for you. I've never fielded Helborg for exactly the reasons stated above, plus I'm afraid of someone rocking Gehenna's or Spirit Leech, which is probably more a psychological thing I guess.

I don't think the list is too shabby actually. Sure, some units will clobber 30 Halberdiers but they'd clobber 40, too - and if you've opened up on them with two Helblasters, I imagine things would look decidedly different. It's true that bolters and cannon outrange them though. A single cannon wouldn't be enough in my meta to make people come to me (I rarely field more myself but then I use more offensive combat units and don't need them to come within 24"). But the thing with the Blasters is first turn and a standard 24.00000001" deployment distance.

A Hurri-aided Runefang is also pretty nice. I was had two (TGM + Leitdorf) in one unit. They received a charge from 12 Grail Knights...8 autowounding no-armour no-strength attacks hitting on 2's later that charge looked pretty blunted... ;)

I'd also add some 5 man archer units at one point.

liddan
01-08-2014, 11:56
I hear ya. Im desperate to use Orion, but hes so expensive that you cant even take a L4 caster in 2400 point army, and he'd just get cannoned off the table. Such as shame as hes a real unique character and looks so much fun to play with; he's basically an uber mobile artilliary piece who bolt throws and grape shots. Maybe if they nurf cannons in the new rule set I might give him a run.

With a 5++, his regen, 5 wounds and access to both high and life magic I don't think cannons are that dangerous if you do the math. There is always that remote chance that a cannon one-shots him though of course and it will happen eventually over a long series of games. Think frenzy on that kind of piece if more of a concern.

PaulGreatrix
01-08-2014, 12:29
Unless ive missed something glaring, Orion doesnt have regen. He recovers wounds if he rolls a 6 at the begining of his turn though.

PaulGreatrix
01-08-2014, 12:38
Well, if it works for you, it obviously works for you. I've never fielded Helborg for exactly the reasons stated above, plus I'm afraid of someone rocking Gehenna's or Spirit Leech, which is probably more a psychological thing I guess.

I don't think the list is too shabby actually. Sure, some units will clobber 30 Halberdiers but they'd clobber 40, too - and if you've opened up on them with two Helblasters, I imagine things would look decidedly different. It's true that bolters and cannon outrange them though. A single cannon wouldn't be enough in my meta to make people come to me (I rarely field more myself but then I use more offensive combat units and don't need them to come within 24"). But the thing with the Blasters is first turn and a standard 24.00000001" deployment distance.

A Hurri-aided Runefang is also pretty nice. I was had two (TGM + Leitdorf) in one unit. They received a charge from 12 Grail Knights...8 autowounding no-armour no-strength attacks hitting on 2's later that charge looked pretty blunted... ;)

I'd also add some 5 man archer units at one point.

I often fantasize about running a double runefang unit. Having them aided by the hurricanum is awesome, something thats not occured to me.

Great cannons ARE amazing, but people moan about them ruining the game and putting players off from taking monsters (which, at the end of the day, ARE the nicest models), and I have to agree with them. Im certain theyll get nurfed in the new rule book. I think D3 wounds instead of D6 would fix the problem.

Unless ive been playing it wrong, cannons can move (though may not fire that turn). So theres no real hiding from 2 hellblasters.

Lord Dan
01-08-2014, 12:42
Unless ive missed something glaring, Orion doesnt have regen. He recovers wounds if he rolls a 6 at the begining of his turn though.

This, though he does have a 6++ from the Forest Spirit rule.

liddan
01-08-2014, 13:10
He has a 5++ from cloak of isha and I mean't that he has regen in the sense that he regains wounds, not the actual regeneration rule. He isn't a forest spirit himself but his dogs are. He has forest stalker.

There are some different opinions on cannons but let's not derail it into another cannon-thread. Do the math and make your mind up for yourselves.

Wesser
01-08-2014, 13:17
Orion doesn't get killed by Cannons.

He gets killed by shooting or Close Combat with STR4+ because he doesn't have an armour save

PaulGreatrix
01-08-2014, 13:27
You just wouldn't throw him into combat though. Hes a shooty guy. But yes, missles of all kinds would hurt. If only they'd given him a better save, he'd be more viable.

CountUlrich
01-08-2014, 15:01
Empire need the dgk, if you don't like the kits there are simple ways around it ... such as mine, I took thunderwolf cav from space wolves and converted into "demiwolf" monstrous cav. They look brilliant and wreck face.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

EvanM
01-08-2014, 16:44
For me I like to take the 2 cheesiest things and only do one of them.
In empire I have dgk but I don't have a stank.
In high elves I do book of hoeth but no botwd (or phoenixes eitherr)

Yeah your infantry is a little weak.
Empire infantry (I find) effectively cannot be below 30 (greatswords too) or 40 but I run 2 blocks of 50 state troops.
I honestly think if you had a grand master with runefang, shield, and like a potion you'd be better off with the extra 100 pts to spend on another 20 halberdiers or something.

Also 2 helblaster and a great cannon mean you need to obliterate stuff.

It's an okay list, it's just not gonna change anyone's mind about Kurt helborg's usefullness.

PaulGreatrix
01-08-2014, 18:36
Empire need the dgk, if you don't like the kits there are simple ways around it ... such as mine, I took thunderwolf cav from space wolves and converted into "demiwolf" monstrous cav. They look brilliant and wreck face.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

That sounds much better than knights riding chickens.

PaulGreatrix
01-08-2014, 18:41
I concede the point that against tar pits Helborg would be wasted, but against other cav I still think he kicks ass. Ive watched him tear through skull crushers, and I just know he'd do the same against opposing demis. And isnt that the latest trend, monstrous cav? If an army has them, then people take em. Nowadays you need some sort of deterrent against monstrous cav. Searing doom is the answer I use with my Wood Elves. Helborg is my Empire's.

Lord Solar Plexus
01-08-2014, 19:17
Great cannons ARE amazing, but people moan about them ruining the game and putting players off from taking monsters (which, at the end of the day, ARE the nicest models), and I have to agree with them. Im certain theyll get nurfed in the new rule book. I think D3 wounds instead of D6 would fix the problem.


There is no problem. D3 wounds is okay when Terrorgheists get to roll d3 screams, or HPA's lose their 20 autohitting S6 no armour saves. People don't take bad monsters, that's it. They don't take Giants against VC or HE either, so their moaning about cannon is ridiculous.



Unless ive been playing it wrong, cannons can move (though may not fire that turn). So theres no real hiding from 2 hellblasters.

Sure they can move but you're still giving up the first turn of shooting...and units can move backwards. They're not going to get any points from that but your 370 points aren't doing anything either. And with the threat of DoC dogs or Gutter Runners (to name but a few) coming from behind, screens, terrain and fast cavalry, I don't know if that's so good.

Also, you have to deploy far forward for a move to work yet you don't know if you get first turn. 40 Archers can kill a Hellblaster faster than vice versa, probably in one round.

PaulGreatrix
01-08-2014, 19:34
There is no problem. D3 wounds is okay when Terrorgheists get to roll d3 screams, or HPA's lose their 20 autohitting S6 no armour saves. People don't take bad monsters, that's it. They don't take Giants against VC or HE either, so their moaning about cannon is ridiculous.



Sure they can move but you're still giving up the first turn of shooting...and units can move backwards. They're not going to get any points from that but your 370 points aren't doing anything either. And with the threat of DoC dogs or Gutter Runners (to name but a few) coming from behind, screens, terrain and fast cavalry, I don't know if that's so good.

Also, you have to deploy far forward for a move to work yet you don't know if you get first turn. 40 Archers can kill a Hellblaster faster than vice versa, probably in one round.

You trying to tell me that if cannons were nurfed we wouldnt see more monsters? People dont take monsters cuz of cannons. They dont take heroes riding monsters because of cannons. If they dont nurf cannons in the new rules ill concede the point. But when they do, it will be because theyre too accurate and too powerful. Im an Empire player and even I admit that.

EvanM
01-08-2014, 23:23
Cannons are TOO accurate.

Bolt throwers hit less often!!! What's up with that? I play empire and I feel GUILTY for having a cannon.

Sometimes I decide not to shoot at monsters with it too much to avoid actually killing them off super easily.

D3 wounds OR making it less accurate is what i'd recommend. It'd be realistic if it scattered d6 inches before it bounced (and then bounced in this new direction). What do u think of that?

bigbiggles
02-08-2014, 01:01
Maybe not d6. But d3 could work if you fail a bs test

N00B
02-08-2014, 02:38
D3+1 wounds would be my vote. And maybe S 8 or 9 just so buffing toughness might have an impact.

DrMooreFlava
02-08-2014, 02:55
Cannons are fine. All monsters are based around current cannon rules, if you go around changing cannon rules, you will see a broken game. What do you do against the T8 sphinx? Wound on 6s all day? Are you kidding?

DrMooreFlava
02-08-2014, 02:56
Cannons have a less than 10% chance to kill a monster with 6 wounds in one shot. I don't even know why this is an issue... What would happen if you change cannon rules then you come up against a the OP WoC demon prince... GG.

DrMooreFlava
02-08-2014, 03:01
Anyway, this is so far off topic. Sorry OP. Hope you found some valuable advice in the haystack of worthless off topic comments that belong in other threads.

EvanM
02-08-2014, 04:34
Totally random but let's talk about empire cavalry.
Knights, inner circle, or reiksguard? What's your pick?

Lord Solar Plexus
02-08-2014, 06:03
You trying to tell me that if cannons were nurfed we wouldnt see more monsters?

I seriously do not care, Paul. You won't unnecessarily nerf cannon, and the powerless whiners won't unnecessarily nerf cannon, so let's stop discussing that far-fetched fantasy right here and now.

PaulGreatrix
02-08-2014, 07:04
I seriously do not care, Paul. You won't unnecessarily nerf cannon, and the powerless whiners won't unnecessarily nerf cannon, so let's stop discussing that far-fetched fantasy right here and now.

Whose whining? Im an empire player. I just recognise I have an unfair advantage against monsters when Daemon Princes spend most the game trembling behind buildings. Im a purest too, I WANT to see the nicest models on the table. I know SO many guys who wont take monsters because of cannons. 'Why dont you take the Aranchnorok, Andy, its sooo cool?' 'Why, when it will just get shot off every game?'

PaulGreatrix
02-08-2014, 07:10
Totally random but let's talk about empire cavalry.
Knights, inner circle, or reiksguard? What's your pick?

Ive tried all 3, but have settled on inner circle. They have a little bite still if they go a 2nd round in combat. Stubborn is nice to have when youre out in the flank away from Bsb and general, but then theyre no longer core. I tried white wolves for a while but found great weapons a bit of a negative. S5/6 is nice, but striking last is a killer when you only have a unit of ten guys, with a point less in terms of armour save.

pinktaco
02-08-2014, 11:01
What I wouldn't give for having a +2 armour save with great weapona on my cold one riders ;)

Seriously though - 14 GW IC knights with champ and warrior priest and the buff wagon will wreck **** up and have enough guys to continue on for a while.

The question about which Knight to choose is a question about what you need. Reiksguards are the perfect roadblock. +1 AS and they'll stick around for a long time, regular non IC knights can be effective chaff killers and IC knights your hammer.

EvanM
02-08-2014, 20:30
I like RG because my strategy is that they are actually an anvil, I focus all my magic support and everything I have on my infantry blocks and try to surprise people who are expecting to be "tarpitted" or anviled by them and instead get wrecked.

inner circle fill core, if you need that, but with the 120 state troops I field I don't have to worry about 625 pts in core.

My idea was always a knight bus of white wolves, at least 15 of them but regular knights (s3 +2 for gw). With full command that's like 360 pts and core.
2+ armor and hitting at S5 is pretty nice.

Does anyone play with units of 15-20 white wolf units as their core/anvil units?

DrMooreFlava
03-08-2014, 22:59
White wolf knights are romantic but the 2+AS is such a liability.

EvanM
03-08-2014, 23:15
White wolves in a unit of 30 is anything but romantic... yes ur right though. if they had a 1+ it'd be fine. Too bad.
I'd make them a special choice, give em S4, stubborn, and make the lion cloak give them +1 AS for a 1+

PaulGreatrix
04-08-2014, 04:29
Taking the ring of volans is a descent shout, for that one time Wildform or Iceshard Blizzard.

Wesser
04-08-2014, 06:30
Ring of Volans.... Why not just take a lvl 1 instead?

EvanM
04-08-2014, 07:01
ring of volans is cheaper. you can 6 dice it with no miscast.

Wesser
04-08-2014, 07:21
ring of volans is cheaper. you can 6 dice it with no miscast.

Cheaper by 35 pts

- Cuts into a characters magic allowance

- Doesn't channel

- Doesn't get +1 to cast

- Don't allow for scroll caddy/Forbidden Rod duty

- And one-use only !??


Doesn't get much more garbage than that

Lord Solar Plexus
04-08-2014, 11:25
Quite so. One-use only is what kills its usefulness for me.

A 2+ AS isn't quite as bad as some make it. Yes, there is a notable difference but it's still a good save. You don't go up frontally against S6 great weapon hordes with 10 regular knights either, and you're going to try to buff them as much as the next unit.

PaulGreatrix
04-08-2014, 14:59
Cheaper by 35 pts

- Cuts into a characters magic allowance

- Doesn't channel

- Doesn't get +1 to cast

- Don't allow for scroll caddy/Forbidden Rod duty

- And one-use only !??


Doesn't get much more garbage than that

Ive used it with some success. I place it on my priest in his knight unit. Knights normally only get one chance to smash the enemy anyway (on the charge), so having a one use item is still useful. I take iceshard blizzard for the -1L to make sure my foe will break, cuz obviously my knights cant afford to get bogged down.

jorgepo
05-08-2014, 18:56
What do you do against the T8 sphinx? Wound on 6s all day? Are you kidding?

So wounding on 6s is ridiculous, but on 2s fair?

Josfer
05-08-2014, 20:15
So wounding on 6s is ridiculous, but on 2s fair?
You wound on 2s with everything?