PDA

View Full Version : white wolves



EvanM
02-08-2014, 20:35
White wolves are an interesting option that empire has at its disposal but it seems that most people steer clear and stick with inner circle units, reiksguard, or 5 man knight chaff units.

Consider this, 15 white wolves (5x3) with full command could be an efficient hard hitting anvil with a 2+ as. Even units of 16 with a warrior priest and a captain isn't too many points.

Thoughts?

PaulGreatrix
02-08-2014, 22:02
I think with White Wolves you pretty much have to go big or go home. They strike last and have an inferior armour save compared to othe Empire knights. Simplt put, it means youre going to lose guys before each and every time you get to swing at your foe. Running 15+ is the only answer to this, I reckon. You can expend five guys before you start losing attacks. But as soon as you start losing those attacks back, youre in trouble. Its the same syndrome as Goblin Spider Riders. Even with the character that gives the unit devestating charge and ambush, the unit has to be big enough to sustain wounds because they pretty much strike last.

EvanM
02-08-2014, 22:32
white wolf units that have 28 guys + warrior priest + captain could be an option. i wonder if anyone has ever tried running empire cav that big....

if i was to run 30 knights of empire, id want white wolves not lances.

Clockwork
02-08-2014, 22:42
Because Great Weapons are only good if you intend on getting your expensive/low model count unit stuck into a grind, which cavalry should avoid at all costs anyway.

EvanM
03-08-2014, 02:07
its counterintuitive but perhaps if you did want to get your cavalry into a grind (like if you were taking an all cavalry list, for example and wanted an anvil) then they could be the way to go.

id honestly like to see an empire army with 50+ knights on the field

Ramius4
04-08-2014, 05:58
id honestly like to see an empire army with 50+ knights on the field

I've done it, it's fun.

I also play Bretonnians though, and they do all cav lists just a little better due to their lance formation.

PS. Don't let one less army save discourage you. White Wolves are just fine.

Wesser
04-08-2014, 06:07
The real issue is flexibility

Lance Knights are both a hammer and a tarpit, whereas White Wolves are just a hammer

Lance Knights also have a better save against ranged weapons


The real problem is that as Empire we already have Greatswords and Halberdiers for grinding it out. Most prefer knights to be another set of tools

Ramius4
04-08-2014, 06:15
Lance Knights are both a hammer and a tarpit, whereas White Wolves are just a hammer

That's hogwash. You're basically saying that a 2+ save isn't good enough to qualify as 'tarpit' material.

You'll fail only 1 in 6 more saving throws than their 1+ counterparts.

PS. With Initiative 3, they'll hit last more often than not regardless of having great weapons...

EvanM
04-08-2014, 07:00
yeah having init 3 knights are kinda... meh. having ASF with silver helms puts them to shame.

having a lot of white wolves in a unit would be awesome. i wish i could get like 4-5 knight kits and just see what happens.

Wesser
04-08-2014, 12:31
That's hogwash. You're basically saying that a 2+ save isn't good enough to qualify as 'tarpit' material.

You'll fail only 1 in 6 more saving throws than their 1+ counterparts.

PS. With Initiative 3, they'll hit last more often than not regardless of having great weapons...


Basically Yeah.. I am.

1+ armour means a hell of a lot when you fight Elves as much as I do. Not having to worry about armour piercing bows/xbows and Witch Elves rocking the AP banner, not to mention STR4 stuff like Phoenix Guard or Black Guard?

And against Silver Helms? If I charge then honours are even. If I get charged = Reiksguard > IC Lance > IC GW > GW > Lance


GW knights just got a lot of extra stuff they don't wanna fight. They hardly qualigy as tarpit if they only wanna tarpit STR3 enemies

PaulGreatrix
04-08-2014, 15:09
I have to agree with Wesser on this one. Like Ramius4 says, AS2 is good, but its when that armour starts getting reduced is the problem. T3 means a lot of shots are getting through that need saving and AS3 is a bit of a liability. Knights simply dont have the numbers. And I3 isnt that bad... its probabaly about average. The worse thing in the world is having these Great-weapony S6 attacks, but not being able to unleash half of them because four of your guys just died. I like White Wolf Knights... theyre fluff is cool, their models are the nicest knights amongst all the Empire and Bretonia, but its that doulbe negative of 1 less As AND striking last. If it had been one or the other... Infantry are for tarpitting. Knights are for blowing holes in battle lines.

Heirube
05-08-2014, 11:02
I came into Empire with the same perspective as EvanM - running all cav core lists using only GW with units of 30 or so knights +characters. Against Dwarves and Chaos Warriors (my majority enemies) I routinely lost combat and could do nothing against Stubborn infantry but die relatively slowly.

Now I'm going back to an all cav list but with Lances (after gluing on 50+ lance and shields!!!!) and the goal to pick my battles instead of trying to grind anyone down :)

If you doubt the wisdom of Lance over GW in most situations run some simple math hammer against various foes. Against some specific enemies GW will shine but how often compared to the rest? Can you reliably customize your list or do you need an all-comers?

In conclusion: GW are fun and fluffy for a Middenheim list (like mine) but the rules aren't as good on the table as you might imagine.

Josfer
05-08-2014, 13:14
What Wesser said. If you want to tarpit S3, you're doing something wrong and against S3 AP, S4, S4AP, S5 it's a big difference between AS 1+ and AS 2+. 50-100% more damage is big, especially if you have ASL.

PaulGreatrix
05-08-2014, 15:19
In the past ive run 2 units of knights with lances on the same flank. 1 larger unit of 9 with a mounted priest, and another mini hammer unit of 6 vanila knights with no command (2 ranks of 3). What id do is line them up on the flank as if I intended to combo charge whatever lay ahead. But instead, id charge on with the larger unit to fight it out for the flank territory, but then veer my smaller unit away in-land, to act as a hammer for any combat being fought in the centre. Because they were small and narrow, they almost always arrive in the centre unmolested.

EvanM
05-08-2014, 20:43
I think that's a good strategy. Minimum sized knight units can make mini hammers or heavy chaff pretty easily.

White wolves are fluffy but hopefully we have some room for fluffy

Wesser
06-08-2014, 13:43
I think that's a good strategy. Minimum sized knight units can make mini hammers or heavy chaff pretty easily.

White wolves are fluffy but hopefully we have some room for fluffy

That's another thing entirely, but very true

Tuttivillus
06-08-2014, 19:03
I use them (but not as White Wolves :) ). Their major stepback is lack of magic banner (back in the older days i used to give them AP Banner). I stick Luthor with them when I can. And Karl Franz or GM. So big games only, but when I do they are the largest unit on the table (28 plus characters :D ).

EvanM
06-08-2014, 21:10
LUTHOR HUSS!
God he's the best.

New idea: if you take luthor you can upgrade a white wolf unit to be a special sigmarite unit. Basically imagine a unit of warrior priests (only 1 wound, no prayers, just S4 T4 with heavy armor barded warhorse great weapon and hatred/frenzy or something fun like that)
It'd be like priests in training marching beside luthor or maybe luthors chosen bodyguard.

duffybear1988
13-08-2014, 10:52
That's hogwash. You're basically saying that a 2+ save isn't good enough to qualify as 'tarpit' material.

You'll fail only 1 in 6 more saving throws than their 1+ counterparts.

PS. With Initiative 3, they'll hit last more often than not regardless of having great weapons...

I'm siding with Ramius4 on this one. Lances are great until you roll badly and don't break the enemy on the charge. Then your knights are just a tarpit, which isn't what you need. At least with great weapons you are smacking back at a reasonable strength. Ok you are losing slightly more knights but you are also doing damage at the same time. I would gladly trade armour and striking last for more killing power on my knights, but then I don't run demigryh knights.

Grupax
13-08-2014, 17:27
they work wel for monsterhunting.
Str6, really fast & can't be thunderstomped.
most monsters have about 3-5 attacks (with some exceptions)
so a unit of 10 with banner can mostly best a monster.

A +2 save is not too shabby either and str6 is good enough to go after enemy characters.
all in all not a bad unit.

You can always screen them a bit with a +1 as unit of 5 knights. -> as long as they are hidden for more then 50% the opponent will be discouraged to shoot them with a -2 to hit on BS based weapons.

(if they are not inner circle they still work well but obviously not as good. str 5 is mediocre when it comes to killing monsters/characters)

EvanM
13-08-2014, 21:05
So if you do run white wolves as a hammer, should they be inner circle? Or is regular okay?

I think the thing is that demigryphs do what white wolves do only better.

PaulGreatrix
14-08-2014, 05:17
So if you do run white wolves as a hammer, should they be inner circle? Or is regular okay?

I think the thing is that demigryphs do what white wolves do only better.

Exactly that.

Im going to be a bit naughty and equip my whites wolves with lances. Ill call them my Sensible Knights.

Of course, not getting the charge or fluffibg your attacks in the first round of combat is a risk. But this can be mitigated with the steel standard and awarrior priest.

Grupax
14-08-2014, 14:31
So if you do run white wolves as a hammer, should they be inner circle? Or is regular okay?

I think the thing is that demigryphs do what white wolves do only better.

indeed, BUT -> they keep your demigryphs free to grind infantry. :D
it's undeniable that demigryphs do lot's of things better then what other units do.
On the plus side though for regular knights is that they will fare better vs multiwound attacks, and they don't come out of the core choices
(If I take them it's always IC :D, I hate having to roll 5+ to wound with limited attacks vs T6 - with some bad luck you're stuck forever)

EvanM
14-08-2014, 17:40
White wolves: monster hunters. I like that. Perhaps white wolves should be their own unit in the new book with special rules like ItP or stubborn or devastating charge or fear or something like that

Wesser
15-08-2014, 05:58
White wolves: monster hunters. I like that. Perhaps white wolves should be their own unit in the new book with special rules like ItP or stubborn or devastating charge or fear or something like that

I don't

Reserve that Questing Knights

EvanM
15-08-2014, 18:28
White wolves are equally badass as questing knights

Wesser
15-08-2014, 19:57
White wolves are equally badass as questing knights

Empire should not be badass in any way

EvanM
15-08-2014, 20:20
Wow okay... Good luck with that lost cause

Banville
15-08-2014, 20:43
I likes my Empire. They're awesome.

EvanM
15-08-2014, 21:40
Empire is awesome. The fact that humans can fight against the nightmare soldiers of a dozen other races is EPIC.

Tuttivillus
15-08-2014, 23:02
White wolves are equally badass as questing knights

and have better save by one pop :D

EvanM
15-08-2014, 23:54
White wolves shouldn't be an upgrade on regular knights but be a unit of their own with stubborn and ItP.

Tuttivillus
16-08-2014, 00:03
White wolves shouldn't be an upgrade on regular knights but be a unit of their own with stubborn and ItP.

Nah, You can have that build anyways. I prefer them Core.

Lord Solar Plexus
17-08-2014, 18:01
Well, WW aren't really an upgrade, they just have different weapons from regular knights.

I've actually had some success fielding a unit. Of course I wisely did point them at Slaves and Goblins, so the pip of armour didn't matter. Incidentally, in one of those games, my Demis were hacked apart by a Fellblade and in another by two Doomwheels, which ties in with what Grupax said. I don't think they should be the only unit you run though.

You can run them stubborn and ItP if you add a TGM and a Crown. Certainly not the worst combination if you ask me.

duffybear1988
20-08-2014, 19:52
I quite like adding a priest with the mask of eeeeek! It's a terror bomb that nobody expects. What's scarier than fighting hairy knights with giant hammers? A deranged priest with a scary face leading hairy knights with giant hammers. :)