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View Full Version : Roar! Outrage! Oh, and some dark eldar



jansuza
22-06-2006, 13:56
Hi everyone!

Being a long-time DE player, I think it's kinda cool (and kinda funny) that by accident, there are a lot of DE threads flying around which kinda highlight the fact that we're getting kinda left out in GW's idea.

The crux so far: DE's rules are great, I won our regionals with them not too long ago, so there's not too much wrong. We have some really great units and wargear, and although some units leave something to be desired, the general effect is great, and no other army plays like them.

The problem is that for a really long time, we haven't gotten so much as a hint of fluff or a new model. Sure we got put in the eye of terror, but then so did everyone else, and it's not that great anyway from what I see.

We've been relegated to sit in the sidelines, same as we have for the past 8 years, yet ppl still play them and start them.

The question is this: should GW be allowed to focus entirely on what they believe will make them more money and ignore some 'less mainstream' armies, or are they obliged to render services (give us something) to the customers who have already forked out alot of cash for an army, only to see it get them nowhere a while later?

I don't really mind GW personally. I've got my DE, and I'm quite happy to play with my tau till we get something new, which GW told us will happen (eventually). But what about those others who stare at all the other armies getting cool models/stories/background while we sit on the bench still trying to figure out some basic theories of how DE came about? :p

I suppose some armies have it just as bad, it's not just us, and whining isn't getting us anywhere, but I wanted to see what you ppl thought anyway;)

Mikari
22-06-2006, 14:40
GW don't owe you anything. They have no contract to you and as you've mentioned DE do quite well, where as Eldar and Orks both urgently need updates for very popular armies.

Also remember Fantasy is being re-newed this year/next year as well. Which isn't exactly going to help.

But then saying that DE never got a single model in the new releases for Medusa V did they?

Plus can you see what they can do with DE? I think they're rather in Limbo right now, GW don't want to trash them but they have no idea how to really work with them. The warrior models are terrible but where do you go with them? It's not like they have much they can really do redesign wise and still keep to the general feel.

But yea, DE could do with some love. Take out a lot of the worthless crap and give them a list which can work without having to whore raiders and Wyche cults.

Ironhand
22-06-2006, 15:31
The problem with DE is that GW hasn't decided what to do with them. They don't like the current models or fluff, but haven't settled (apparently) on a new concept. Hence no new models or fluff.

Messiah
22-06-2006, 15:36
Yeah, wouldnt it be even worse, if the released a few new models, that were useless when they start the new concept DE?

Grand Master Raziel
22-06-2006, 15:55
The trouble with the DE is that, as they are currently written, they can't really be a major player in the setting. They've got one eensy little planet from which they occasionally sally forth and annoy the big dogs, but not enough to make any of them angry enough to commit the resources to finding and destroying them. The finding is the hard part there, because if Commoraugh ever gets found, it's toast. Anyhow, I think a precondition to the DE getting redone would be for the Developers to have an idea for them that amounts to more than the setting's pesky gadfly.

Mikari
22-06-2006, 16:15
Eldar are the same except they happen to use material space too though.

DE could be a major player if they started (for example) to try and assassinate major people. Like chapter masters etc.

WhiteCounsel
22-06-2006, 16:19
DE could be a major player if they started (for example) to try and assassinate major people. Like chapter masters etc.You just gave me a new idea for a campaign I'm writing. :D
That could figure in somehow...

I've always liked the DE and I never thought they got enough credit either. My friend used to play them all the time (and sometimes converted normal Eldar into DE by adding spiky bits). I wish their role increased a little more as well.

Jonathan =I=
22-06-2006, 16:41
There an army that caters for gamers who want a challenging army to play with that can be brutal if used well and have to be extensively remodeled and converted to get them looking good.

Personally I would be more upset if they were redone as I don’t think the niche category that they currently are in could be refilled so easily.

Grand Master Raziel
22-06-2006, 16:43
Eldar are the same except they happen to use material space too though.

DE could be a major player if they started (for example) to try and assassinate major people. Like chapter masters etc.

They can't really afford to. If they did run around doing such things, they'd probably get one of the major players sufficiently honked off to track them down and blow up Commoraugh. Getting wiped out is counter-productive. Besides, assassinations are a political act, and the DE don't really seem to have much in the way of political motivation.

The Eldar are not the same. Though not one of the more numerous races, they, at least, have multiple worlds. Also, they are a major player in the setting, if for no other reason than they generally oppose Chaos, and the Imperium probably would have fallen on at least a few occasions if it hadn't been for Eldar intervention.

archangels uk
22-06-2006, 16:57
Isnt Commoraugh in the webway?

I think they should expand the fluff and models, why, because by doing that it will help the whole game,

Souleater
22-06-2006, 16:59
I don’t think the OP is suggesting that GW owe him anything, just that it would be nice if they stopped focusing on Marines so much.

Current DE Problems

1. The Great Shadow in the Galaxy aka Space Marines, blotting out almost all other armies.

Well, nuff said, sadly. SM are what keep 40K sales so high. Taking my next points into account most people will pick the ‘newbies army’.

2. Hard to play

The Big myth of De is that they need to be mastered. They don’t. They have a lot of speed and firepower. I generally find that mine do what I ask of them. You can’t be an idiot with them, that’s all.

But the myth puts people off of starting DE – what if you can’t handle their awesome uberness? You will have wasted your cash!

3. Lack of background

GW apparently had complaints in 2nd Edition that there was too much fluff in the codexes. So when third edition rolled around, they gutted the amount of background material.

SM, Eldar and Orks could get away with this - they were established armies. The background material was in old books, on the net, or could be gotten from vet players.

For a new army, it performed a lewd act upon the generative member of Satan’s favourite pony, Pickles.

GW could address this fairly easily in WDs or on their web site. But haven’t bothered.

As we can see in the later codexes, GW realised their error and started stuffing background into them. Look at the tau – a new army that came from no-where. But if you picked up and played Tau the background in their codex really gave you a feel for them.

I’d love to see some stuff about DE and CE fighting together against Slaanesh.

Also, DE are pirates - it would be so easy for them to nick something important by accident and end up with a pirate fleet being chased around by the Inquisiton, a Tau Sept, etc.

4. ‘New’

So, no established fan base. Not helpful. And ‘first generation figures’, too.

5. Poor support

I know DE are raiders and pirates, but it seems to me they only get tacked onto the ****-end of any campaigns or supplements. They get to skulk around and pick up the pieces. Whoo, he said in tones of one clearly unimpressed.

Hey, how about a mini-campagin where the Harlequins pull the CE and DE together to fight on a planet where the minions of She Who Thirsts are about to pull some bad mojo?

And I realise that GW stores have finite shelf space, but being pulled out of the shops did DE no favours. It might even prove to be the nail in the coffin.

6 Models

Ya, they are looking a little old, some of them. Actually some are such butt ugly abominations that I wouldn’t insult my Archon by fielding them. Yes, Warp Beasts, I’m looking at you!

Others, like the Incubi are amazing. Raiders are completely different to what everybody else gets.

Look at the Wyches, I love ‘em but some are not so good I admit. Now look at the Fantasy Witch Elves, also sculpted by Chris Fitzpatrick later on. His ‘second go’ at evil, sexy elf babes. Now think what he could do third time around if GW paid him a big, fat wad of cash to re-do the Dark Eldar.

I’m not an artist, but think about the 2nd ed nid models (hormaguants and Warriors to be specific)…now think about the current plastic versions. Same ideas but much, much better looking – better design, better sculpting.

That can be done with the Dark Eldar models.

7.‘Nothing can be done with them’ or ‘They just don’t appeal.

They’re Evil Elf Pirates in Space.

Let me repeat that.

Evil.

Elf.

Pirates.

In Space.

Okay, space might not be quite so interesting but evil (in games) is cool. Everybody loves elves and they’re pirates, ffs!

I don’t want them to be Chaos Eldar (boring and unimaginative), I don’t want them to be glam-rockers (I’ve seen some DE armies that run a bit close).

But Evil Elf Pirates in Space? Oh, man you can do so much with that. DE chose their path. They survived She Who Thirsts by turning to evil and darkness while their Cousins chose the enlightened way. You could write so much amazing background with that.

How do the Harlequins broker the truces?

How do the sides feel about it?

Just how kick **** is a combined Harlie/CE/DE forces? (My suspicion is that the answer to that is ‘Way too kick **** to be a balanced table top force’ but you could still make a novel of that.

8 The great unknown

When are they going to get an update? Are they going to be dropped?

Nobody outside GW seems to know. This, again, puts people of starting an army.

9 Sales

Well, if they aren’t selling why should GW do anything with them? See above for why they aren’t selling.

Conclusion: DE have a lot of potential, but until GW make an effort with them they are wraiths floating at the periphery.

Wraithbored
22-06-2006, 17:00
Dark Eldar should perhaps be the crazy alchemist person, drawing beasties to the warp and binding them to their will, expand on the warp beasts and beastmaster concepts. Really bring out the horrific experiments that haemonculi conduct. Perhaps make a connection with them bartering their souls for numerous souls of prisoners with slaanesh. Make them evil out of desperation and necesity not just "BLARGH we like being evil". You know give reasons why they need to conduct so many slave raids, if the reason is their very survival.
And pretty much what Souleater said you're dead on mate good work.

Mikari
22-06-2006, 18:04
Maybe they should move DE more towards the Eldar pirates of old. Could be quite intresting as an army and would give them more focus in campaigns. After all an Eldar pirate fleet attacking an Imperial world would draw attenction from the loyalists. Chaos would want to eat the Eldar and well Tau are every bloody where, even in the past as soon as GW make a classic campaign.

Wraithbored
22-06-2006, 18:11
Maybe they should move DE more towards the Eldar pirates of old. Could be quite intresting as an army and would give them more focus in campaigns. After all an Eldar pirate fleet attacking an Imperial world would draw attenction from the loyalists. Chaos would want to eat the Eldar and well Tau are every bloody where, even in the past as soon as GW make a classic campaign.
I disagree, Eldar Pirates are Eldar pirates or as they are known in BFG as the Eldar Corsair fleets. Dark Eldar are a tottaly different faction. Corsairs do help out Craftworlds in dire times and sometimes they even hire themselves out as mercenaries to other races. Dark Eldar will not risk themselves for their craftworld kin, nor would they work with humans.

Shaper Shakra
22-06-2006, 18:23
DE should have psychic powers. I know what your thinking, "Lawl nub psychic powers require concentration! Research FTW!" However, I don't think this is a problem. I mean, Orks do it. So do rogue psykers. I would think that DE would use every advantage they can...

Wraithbored
22-06-2006, 18:27
DE should have psychic powers. I know what your thinking, "Lawl nub psychic powers require concentration! Research FTW!" However, I don't think this is a problem. I mean, Orks do it. So do rogue psykers. I would think that DE would use every advantage they can...
hmm perhaps but current fluff(we'll it's really more of a wargear description) says that DE think of psykers as interesting playthings. And they don't really last long in Commoragh, but since Commoragh is a big ol' dark place it't not beyond the realm of possibility that psyker covens would hide and offer their services to DE Lords in exchange for protection.

lord_blackfang
22-06-2006, 18:31
DE should have psychic powers. I know what your thinking, "Lawl nub psychic powers require concentration! Research FTW!" However, I don't think this is a problem. I mean, Orks do it. So do rogue psykers. I would think that DE would use every advantage they can...

With Slaanesh constantly tugging on their souls as is, advertising their location in the warp is the last thing DE need ;)

Wraithbored
22-06-2006, 18:34
With Slaanesh constantly tugging on their souls as is, advertising their location in the warp is the last thing DE need ;)
True! But perhaps the psykers wouldn't necesarily be DE.... :D

Souleater
22-06-2006, 19:25
There shouldn't be any DE psykers. The fluff paints them as being hunted by She Who Thirsts, and that is at least part of the reason DE raid so much.

Possibly some more anti-psyker stuff. Also I like Wraithbored's idea of using other races psykers - I think this is how the Crucible of Malediction works.

And this is what I'm getting at - the seeds are there, they just need some creative watering.

Souleater
22-06-2006, 19:27
DE should have psychic powers. I know what your thinking,

No, actually I'm thinking that you, too will make an interesting plaything for Haemonculues Trinny and Susanna...:evilgrin:

Sir_Turalyon
22-06-2006, 19:46
Psykers are favourite playthings of Dark Eldar, so no sane DE would let others know he has psychic powers, by for instance using it on battlefield.

Of course, fluff can be changed or blantly raped to make room for new "cool" elements like DE psykers... which brings me back to the topic.

Sometimes no attention is better then harming attention. Bad fluff and bad new models can do more harm then help. I like my Dark eldar as they are.E

Of course, new cool models, rules and fluff would be great, but there is also risk of new rules being no-brainer to lure more newbies, new models being idiotic in effort to make them original and new fluff being poorly concieved. After seeing my once-beloved Bretonnians turning from niche, conesseur army to present condition I think I prefere my Dark Eldar staying as they are now.

Souleater
22-06-2006, 20:03
Yes, that's a danger for sure, and I'm sure we'd all like to avoid that.

So it's probably a good idea for old hands like ourselves to thrash it out in the forums and explain what the appeal of the dark eldar is.

I can't comment on the Brets, I don't have much WHFB experience.

However I've played sisters of battle since they bought the first codex out back in 2nd Ed. We languished in limbo for a while, survived on a CA article for several years and there were lots of arguments over the proposed Witch Hunters codex.

But eventually we ended up with a bloomin' fantastic codex. I'm hoping that the DE will be as lucky (although hopefully without such a long wait!).

(NB:The original SoB models have stood the test of time. This cannot be said for the DE. The Dark Eldar will need a complete overhaul figureswise.)

So, I agree with you, Sir T' but my nagging concern is that DE will get left, and left and then Devoured By Tyranids or the C'tan in a mysterious fluff 'accident'.

That they are a niche army, that their list is still workable could become an excuse for not working on them while the next MEQ codex is done. Eventually they will have been left so long that GW will declare a second race 'Devoured by the Tyranids' :cries:

Easy E
22-06-2006, 23:21
I would like the cunning of the DE to be highlighted more. For instance, a campaign/battle where they orchestrated events to fit their own whims and purposes. For example, instead of, they are attacking to gain slaves, again! Try this, they lured the Guardsmen to the planet for the express reason of sport. The planet is a deathworld, and the DE are hunting them methodically for fun and slaves.

zealousheretic
22-06-2006, 23:25
I'd like to see the DE expanded some; they're a cool and interesting army, and they occupy a niche that no other army really does.

That is, plenty of armies can do the "we are made of fast and shooty" thing, but none of them are quite so fast, shooty, or so fragile.

This is where the often repeated "truth" that you have to be a master tactician to win with DE comes from; they're not forgiving of mistakes, and you have to be willing to be extremely aggressive despite the fact that your troops and vehicles aren't durable at all (at least, nearly every good DE army I've seen in action has been in the enemy's face as fast as possible).

I'm not sure exactly how to expand their fluff and rules, but I'd be sad to see them go.