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View Full Version : Dwarven rune lord on anvil of doom is warmachine questions



Josfer
18-08-2014, 14:47
A dwarven rune lord on anvil of doom changes his troop type to warmachine.

Who fights whom in CC now? The warmachine section says only 6 models can attack as assault party and you use the majority toughness of the crew (- in the profile of the guards) and their WS in combat and the warmachines (none given for the anvil...is the rune lord the warmachine?) for shooting. What?

GW if you read this: STOP WRITING **** LIKE THIS!

Jorma
19-08-2014, 05:24
A dwarven rune lord on anvil of doom changes his troop type to warmachine.

Who fights whom in CC now? The warmachine section says only 6 models can attack as assault party and you use the majority toughness of the crew (- in the profile of the guards) and their WS in combat and the warmachines (none given for the anvil...is the rune lord the warmachine?) for shooting. What?

GW if you read this: STOP WRITING **** LIKE THIS!

What part of the rules don't you understand? Dwarf rulebook page 37 explains the rules quite precisely. The anvil guards can never be attacked seperately.

The rulebook on the other hand explains how you deal with warmachines, for close combat and shooting, I suggest you read pages 108-110.

Josfer
19-08-2014, 12:18
I read both before asking (although I missed the WS of the lord being used for to hit rolls in CC).

If I follow the rule book, an enemy unit coming into CC choses 6 models that attack against a T of "-" (according to the errata, this is counted as 0) of the guards, while shooting is resolved against a T that isn't even mentioned. Relevant rule: BRB p. 108 "The Toughness of the war machine is used against ranged attacks and the majority Toughness of the crew is used against close combat attacks."

Some more questions (the more I read, the more questions come up):
-Does he have an anvil guard per wound left? So at the beginning 5, each with 2A? Relevant rule BRB. p. 108: "A war machine's Wounds are always considered to be equal to the number of remaining crew models (which is stated in the war machine's entry) - the Wounds value on its profile is included only out of completeness"
-Does he automatically fail strenght tests? Relevant rule: BRB p. 108 "War machines automatically fail all characteristic tests, save for Toughness and Leadership tests."
-Do the anvil guards have an armor save that can be used to save them? Relevant rule: BRB p. 109 "The crew's armor save is still used to attampet to prevent any wounds inflicted, as it is they that the attack is attempting to slay." and BRB p. 110 "The crew can then take any saves to which they are entitled."


The anvil guards can never be attacked seperately.
Crew can never be attacked seperately, see BRB p. 108 box "THE CREW": "The crew cannot be charged, attacked or otherwise affected separately from their war machine[...]"

theunwantedbeing
19-08-2014, 12:32
It works exactly as it says it works in the Dwarf book.

The anvil guard use the profile listed in close combat.
He auto-fails strength tests as he's a war machine.
The anvil guards armour cannot be used as they cannot be attacked ever, you use the Runelords armour and toughness.

Lord Zarkov
19-08-2014, 14:17
Just think of the Anvil Guards as an extension of the Rune Lord in the same way as a horse or say a Juggernaut would in other armies.

Josfer
19-08-2014, 15:12
Just think of the Anvil Guards as an extension of the Rune Lord in the same way as a horse or say a Juggernaut would in other armies.
Based on what rules? It's not cavalry or a chariot (where these things apply), it's a warmachine.


The anvil guards armour cannot be used as they cannot be attacked ever,
The same thing is written in the BRB under "THE CREW" (as quoted above) and still the AS of the crew is used in CC and shooting.


you use the Runelords armour and toughness.
Based on what? This is not written in the dwarf book. And the BRB states otherwise.

Lord Zarkov
19-08-2014, 15:41
Based on what rules? It's not cavalry or a chariot (where these things apply), it's a warmachine.
Based on the fact that this is clearly how the "following special rules" that modify the Runelord's 'war machine' type want you to play it.

The Runelord is a single war machine with a special rule that grants him 2 extra WS 5 S 4 attacks in combat.

The third paragraph states that the Guards and Anvil don't have any wounds and toughness values and can't be attacked separately, so your only option is to attack the Runelord himself.



The same thing is written in the BRB under "THE CREW" (as quoted above) and still the AS of the crew is used in CC and shooting.


Based on what? This is not written in the dwarf book. And the BRB states otherwise.

Normal warmachine crew have a T value though - obviously they can't die separately (or they'd autodie from T -) and we're told to remove them when all 5 wounds have been lost from the Runelord.

There's only one component of the model we're given leave to attack, which is the only one given defensive stats - clearly that's the T and Sv we're meant to use.

Yeah GW write sloppy rules - we all know this, they're not exactly MTG - but when there's only one way something can work, even if it's rather sloppily written, then why bother picking holes in it for the sake of it? Better to save the energy for the many cases where something is genuinely ambiguous.

Josfer
19-08-2014, 16:19
Based on the fact that this is clearly how the "following special rules" that modify the Runelord's 'war machine' type want you to play it.
No, nothing is mentioned there that is in anyway according to your wild guess.


The Runelord is a single war machine with a special rule that grants him 2 extra WS 5 S 4 attacks in combat.
Why? Why isn't he a single war machine with 5 crew counters that have 2 attacks each?


The third paragraph states that the Guards and Anvil don't have any wounds and toughness values and can't be attacked separately,
Which is the same as is written under "THE CREW" in the BRB


so your only option is to attack the Runelord himself.
who is a warmachine that uses its crew to test for to wound rolls in cc.


Normal warmachine crew have a T value though - obviously they can't die separately (or they'd autodie from T -)
Correct. "or they autodie from T -".


and we're told to remove them when all 5 wounds have been lost from the Runelord.
No, that's not what is written in the dwarf book. The rule is: "However, if the Runelord is removed as a casualty, we assume that the Anvil Guards were slain alongside their master and the whole model is removed from play."
Which is again the same as stated under "THE CREW" in the BRB: "Similarly, if the war machine is removed as a casualty, all remaining crew are also removed."


There's only one component of the model we're given leave to attack, which is the only one given defensive stats - clearly that's the T and Sv we're meant to use.
Only that GW clearly says what to use when and in the FAQ wrote "characteristics tests of 0 or - are automatically failed"


Yeah GW write sloppy rules - we all know this, they're not exactly MTG - but when there's only one way something can work, even if it's rather sloppily written, then why bother picking holes in it for the sake of it?
There are about a dozen ways this could work.
-There are 5 anvil guards that have 2 attacks each, but are automatically wounded in CC.
-There is one "anvil guards" with 2 attacks, that can't be wounded.

-The anvil is the warmachine having two crew (the "anvil guards" and the lord) being autowounded by shooting (but the lords AS and ward apply)
-The lord is the warmachine having 5 crew being wounded against his T and no AS in shooting
-The lord is the warmachine having 1 crew but 5 wounds being wounded against his T, AS and ward in shooting.

-The anvil has a base size and every enemy touching it is in base contact
-The anvil has no base size and the normal 6 person assault crew applies
(yes, there isn't even a model buyable from GW)

Lord Zarkov
19-08-2014, 16:30
-The anvil has no base size and the normal 6 person assault crew applies


I imagine this, along with allowing for a weakness to any war-machine targeting spells/abilities (and of course laziness) is a major reason they made it a War Machine in the first place.

After all the model for the Anvil is on a sculpted round base of all things.

Really, troop type 'Unique', a stated base size, and otherwise identical rules would have made things much easier.