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View Full Version : Flaggelants; the true lepers of the old world?



PaulGreatrix
18-08-2014, 17:02
Im going to be running a 40 strong hoard of flagellants soon as I gather the models. I dont think ive EVER seen them on the tabletop though, even on youtube batreps. Does anyone out there run them, and with what success?

EvanM
18-08-2014, 18:16
flagellants are one of the worst priced infantry units out there.

they have t3, s3, no armor, worse than average WS...... and all they get is a flail, unbreakable, frenzy THAT THEY CAN LOSE, and a horrid End is Nigh rule.

compared to 6th ed and 7th ed flaggies, they are horrible.

the only thing they do offer, however, is something different. right now they deserve to cost 3 points less, or around that much, which is rediculous for how much they actuallly do cost.

best thing to do is to use a horde, smash something with a buff from lore of Light (hopefully speed of light or the one that gives +1A and ASF)

Banville
18-08-2014, 19:17
They're not there to smash stuff. They're un-freaking-breakable. Stick them in front of something nasty. Watch it get stuck for three turns. Job's a good 'un.

liddan
18-08-2014, 21:28
They're not there to smash stuff. They're un-freaking-breakable. Stick them in front of something nasty. Watch it get stuck for three turns. Job's a good 'un.

I wonder what kind of nastiness is worth 480 pts to hold up for three turns.

I don't enjoy ripping on units that people have invested so much time and effort in (I don't know how many models you have left though) but in this case I think flagellants is just poor. If you're going to run them, I think a huge block is the way to go but they are ridiculously costed for what they actually do.

EvanM
19-08-2014, 00:26
but with the next book they will be buffed again. thats how it always is. empire needs tons of changes and fixes, one of them being flagellants. they got such beautiful models RIGHT before they got nurfed! *******

just play them, but dont take them to tourneys

and unbreakable is really useless in 8th because of how good steadfast is. every game i have 2 units EVER fail a LD test

O&G
19-08-2014, 08:48
I play orcs and goblins, and i dont know the stats of flaggellants,but goblins have the same strenght,toughness and a shield or light armour for only three points. So flaggellants are just like goblins, so you must run them in blocks of 40 to 60( I sometimes run 100 goblins) cause Thats the only way of them actually doing something.

Wesser
19-08-2014, 09:26
Flagellants don't see regular play because their usefulness is soo dependent on the opposition which means they are "expensive and utterly pointless" OR "expensive, but hideously destructive".

Their usefulness is directly related the Initiative stats of their opponent and how well they shoot.

Examples:

Elves: All elves have high-volume shooting which combined with higher Initiative and ASF will see Flaggies murdered both before they enter combat as well as in the actual combat

Ogres: Although Ogres have Leadbelchers these aren't quite as point-effective at killing Flaggies, so they are much less likely to be killed at range. More important Ogres have lower initiative, so apart from the very largest of Ogrestars flaggies will carve through basically anything in the OK army. Even Mournfangs look puny if you're lucky enough to have flaggies with you

So against low-shooting/low initiative armies such as OK, VC, Beastmen and Nurgle Daemons (the most common Daemons after all) flaggies are golden. Against Elves or Lizardmen...not so much


A unit of 21 deployed 3x7 isn't too much of an investment and against bad match-ups it's still a serviceable flanker as even a few flaggies can still do some damage and their at least won't panic.

They are too hit-or-miss for a larger unit though

Banville
19-08-2014, 10:50
Funnily Wesser, you've just described my meta right there. we also play at 3,000 points and above very regularly. There are only two elf players (one spiky, one shiny, no smelly) and I'm one of them. I've found even a smallish unit of 20 flagellants can hold up a flank and prevent units manoeuvring to get close to the artillery.

In a nutshell. Useful but pricey and can get shot to pieces.

Then again if an enemy wants to blaze away at a tarpit, let them.

rolly_321
19-08-2014, 11:34
Personally I really don't think being unbreakable is enough to justify the term tarpit, at least not an effective one.
1. No armour, low Ws, T3 means they drop fast.
2. The special rule makes them drop even faster and is more of a hindrance than anything after the first round of combat.
3. At a large enough size to tarpit something they cost so much that they eat into the points needed for support as well as becoming something your opponent WANTS to get into combat with and destroy.

They're a kamazi unit, deploy them back and bring them up to flank or fill in a gap when the opponent gets to your battle line. Target priority is important because they are only worth that one first round of combat.

liddan
19-08-2014, 18:05
I think that against the right opponent they are average at best.

I think you'll almost always do better with x2 the amount in halberdiers and that's core. Only good thing is you don't have to mind Ld and bsb bubbles with flagellants.

Greatswords are generally regarded as a bad unit that don't belong in competative play but imo even they are far superior to flagellants at -1 pt. You can have command, magic banner, characters can join them, you don't hit at S3 and you have protection against almost all bs-shooting as well as low S attacks.

Edit: Oh and +1 WS and not frenzy which is generally bad against good opponents.

EvanM
19-08-2014, 22:55
Literally all empire infantry except halberds and archers are "bad units" competitively.
Flagellants are one of the "worst" because they should cost something like 7 pts right now, which is ridiculous that they cost how much they do. They are skeletons with flails. Nothing more.

boli
19-08-2014, 22:58
They are pretty good at defending a building +2 S every round helps :p

EvanM
19-08-2014, 23:05
Oh yeah the watchtower mission...

Anyway they need to be fixed. The fluff warrants either a considerable point decrease (-4 ppm is what would be fair) or simply give them the rules they used to have (T4, can't lose frenzy, better end is nigh rule)

Wesser
20-08-2014, 06:10
Oh yeah the watchtower mission...

Anyway they need to be fixed. The fluff warrants either a considerable point decrease (-4 ppm is what would be fair) or simply give them the rules they used to have (T4, can't lose frenzy, better end is nigh rule)

That's an overreaction

They have hideous potential (my unit of 21 recently crushed 4 Mournfangs before they even got to strike), so what kills them aren't really the price, but situational they are.

Generally Unbreakable units pay through the nose for an ability that ain't what it used to be (just ask Slayers and Undead Core), so flaggies are more a victim of that trend than anything else. Adjusting Unbreakable to what it should cost (in the case of flaggies that's prolly 1 or 2 points less) wold sort em out just fine

Lord Solar Plexus
20-08-2014, 06:51
I took a unit of 18-19 in some League games last season (we had 2k open lists + 500 points of variable stuff each game), not because I thought they were good but just because I could and they're painted better than some other stuff.

- against O&G, they flanked a unit of Orcs, some improved core version. Rolled quite well for TEin and my opponent forgot to reform his unit once but they were still massacred even in this ideal scenario because there were too few of them. They did play a role in holding this unit up though.

- against CD, they crushed a unit of Blunderbusses or whatever the shooters are called. Wasn't very spectacular because there was nothing else on that flank.

- against VC in a Watchtower scenario, he got a unit of Graveguard into the tower. I had a Hurri near and Birona's up, so went first with 30 attacks, hitting on 2's, re-rolling misses, re-rolling failed wounds and killed all 36 in one round (with crumbling). Once more this was an absolutely ideal situation, so while it was good fun (for me), it doesn't mean much for their general performance.

In general, I agree with Wesser. I did not take this unit against HE or DoC despite being in a relatively fluffy mode since they would probably just die and not accomplish anything.

Against Lizards, they're a mixed bag - Skinks will kill them but Saurus or Temple Guard are often massacred if enough Flaggies are still alive (a big if).

If you want to field them, I really recommend a Light caster for a chance to up their initiative and/or protect them a bit from shooting. Iceshard Blizzard also helps, as does Miasma, and both can easily be taken on a backup L1. At least these Lores and spells don't gimp anything else you might take! ;)

EvanM
20-08-2014, 16:41
I'd just prefer to see them easier to take but perhaps not be insanely good when they actually work. Unbreakable isn't what it used to be, probably 1-2 pts would be fine to take off of flaggies and slayers and units like that.

I love the idea of flaggies and don't get me wrong i'll get a unit anyway (best would probably be 40 since 20 seem to die in 1-2 turns of combat)

duffybear1988
20-08-2014, 19:46
I run 18 in my 2000 points army and they always work ok for me. I do play against mostly TK, LM and OK though. I'm not really sure what people expect from them. They're just crazed men with flails. Either a points drop or T4 would be nice, but they aren't unusable. Only last week I used them to stall 10 silver helms for a couple of turns, which provided just enough time for the 2 cannons and hellblaster they were protecting to shoot up another cavalry unit and a chariot. They even killed a few knights whilst doing it. In the end I won because they held those cavalry.

EvanM
20-08-2014, 21:16
18 flaggies held up 10 silver helms? wow.... good job!

duffybear1988
21-08-2014, 12:02
18 flaggies held up 10 silver helms? wow.... good job!

Elven ponies got me last guy in the end.

I have terrible luck with leadership tests (I even manage to fair Ld9 with re-rolls) so being unbreakable is heaven for me. :)

jtrowell
21-08-2014, 12:50
Like others, while I think that they might gain to lose on point or 2 per model, they have a potential that no other imperial unit can match.

With their special rule, they can lose models, but they will most of the time gain a reroll to attack rolls, and sometimes a reroll to to wound rolls too, in the first round when they get 2 attacks at S5 each, this can be huge and put them in swordmaster level of carnage. Like the swordmasters, they are vulnerable to shooting (even more than them in fact due to no armor at all), but if enough survive to hit, they can manage to do a good damage. After that, if the opponent survive, they become must less useful but as long as one of them is alive they will hold, giving you more time.

Also, something that must be say, is that they are one of the few units in the imperial army that can be effective by themselve. Being far from the general can open some weakness to frenzied charges, but aside that they are unbreakable and don't need the support of a preist, altar or spell to be effective.

I usually use 21 deployed 7x3 near a flank, where they can eitheir support the center of my line, or charge a monster or support unit of my opponent to destroy or cripple it. With 21, I can manage to get some losses, if af less half that survive to attack, it is usually worth it. Against opponents with lot of shooting, you might want to deploy them behind other units, ready to act as a second wave to combo charge an unit already engaged, or to cover a hole in your line.

Note that if you still have all 21 alive, even a unit of elven elite will hesitate to charge them, because the elves will of course strike first, but they probably wont kill all 21 of them, and 10 or so survivors would still manage to gget almost as many attacks against the pointy ears (unless they are in horde formation of course).

Lets image your unit of 21 flaggelants deployed 7x3 against a similar unit of DE executioners or HE white lions

21 elves against 21 Flagellants.

Elves hit first on 3+, 15 attacks with champion
(no reroll since they only strike at initiative now)
=> ~10 hits
wound on 2+
=> 8~9 dead flaggelants on average

You still have something like 11~12 flaggelants
Let's imagine that you lost 2~3 flaggies to their special rule and get rerolls to hit (the reoll to wound nead 4+ dead if I remember correctly ?), you still have your full first rank alive to attack plus maybe one or two on the second rank
=> Let's say 15 attacks on 4+ from 9 flaggies (7 in the 1st rank)
=> 7.5 hit, plus 3.75 more from rerool =~ 11 hits
=> wound on 2+ (first round so S5), the heavy armor of the elves is cancelled
=> ~9 dead elves
If you lost more flaggellants from the self-damage, then you might lost one or three attacks, but get to reroll to wound too, so similar damage.

What other human unit can say that he can fight an elven unit of the same size on equal grounds without support from the rest of the army ?

Lord Solar Plexus
21-08-2014, 13:48
Well, White Lions get 21 attacks and I'm sure Execs get some kind of re-rolls. The main problem is that Flaggies will die when the Elves attack a second time, and in any case lose frenzy. That means even if they hold and you had a bigger unit, and they'd kill all Elves, the unit wouldn't be frenzied anymore.

I'm not in the camp that thinks frenzy is a complete downside but at Ld 7, I probably wouldn't put them on a flank.

EvanM
21-08-2014, 17:18
What other human COSTS the same as an elven elite model? Are you kidding?

If you compare them to swordmaster you might just cry.

Armor, keeping high attacks/strength in later rounds, high WS, striking first..... they outclass them in every way, plus martial prowess, not having frenzy checks, and M5.

Flaggies have unbreakable but the die before that usually matters.

They are a cool unit, but both flaggies and greatswords deserve to be 10 ppm

Commodus Leitdorf
23-08-2014, 00:58
Flaggies hit like a ton of bricks if they can go first. A unit of 40 with the reroll to wound + Reroll to hit (not even counting other buffs from the buff wagon) make a mess of whatever they get get into combat with.

Catch is they probably wont survive the battle. They'll either kill themselves or lose the war of attrition and get cut down to a man. Basically if you don't mind losing 480pts go nuts, they are fun.

EvanM
23-08-2014, 01:32
Well you could try like attacking with them and just going after chaff units, perhap in a unit of 10 or 12, and then have them be heavy flankers/chaff/redirectors.

In some ways they are like a chariot infantry unit, hard hitting first turn and weak to shooting or prolonged attacks.

I think I wanna get a unit of them anyway