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rolly_321
22-08-2014, 05:05
Haven't really picked up my wood elves since their previous codex. But after having a read through the codex the Ancient struck me as an interesting choice, he doesn't seem to get much love though. Why is this?

The lower stats than the regular treeman is somewhat disappointing but, none the less you can get a L4 who's stats are up there with the best combat casters (slaughtermasters, chaos sorcerer lords) and still better than some dedicated combat lords.

Cannons also doesn't seem as scary because you can heal him every time you cast and its still only a 1/6 chance to kill him outright with one shot. He also synergies with a regular treeman who can act as a cannon magnet and benefits well from many of the life spells. Anything flaming is an issue but this leads to me third thought..

Wood elves also have some the best options for dealing with threats to him, glade riders, waywatchers, warhawks, eagles, excel at warmachine hunting or mage assassination. Deploy him defensively, use another treeman or a forest to cover line of sight to him and focus on removing ranged threats to him asap.

Why do so many people consider him a sub-par option? I want to expand my army but before I go invest in the model I like to have a good idea about what I'm using. I had lots of EG last book and it sucked have spent so much time and money on a unit that constantly under-performed.

On a side note, I was thinking about using my old treeman model as a centrepiece for a big treekin unit.

Ramius4
22-08-2014, 05:12
I think it just boils down to two factors.

A) An irrational fear of cannons.

B) People seem to think the only way to play WE is by packing as much shooting into their army as possible (i.e. a gunline). For further evidence of this, stop into the WE tactics forum sometime. It's almost depressing seeing 80% or more of the lists people post are just variations on shooting units, with Wild Riders to clean up the mess. Try pointing it out to people and the response is usually something like "what?! It's not a gunline because _______".

Blkc57
22-08-2014, 06:40
You kinda disregard the weakness of flammable, but it really is a major problem for treemen, and simply saying you can go warmachine hunting or Mage killing doesn't actually remove them immediately. Your opponent often has enough time to get a few good shots off before you ambush that flaming cannon (and it really only takes one shot) and god forbid its a Khorne cannon. A single casting of the base spell in Lore of Metal can undue a treeman even with dispell attempts (which doesn't work too well if your opponent just six dices it for victory) .

pinktaco
22-08-2014, 07:53
He can't go in a unit. Can't take magic items (ward). Is forced to have life meaning the rest of your army is already picked for you (melee/monsters).

rolly_321
22-08-2014, 08:10
You're not necessarily forced to go melee, defensive buffs help out in a fire fight too. Furthermore, 30 Hag guard in a poison forest put out considerable close combat damage for a unit of archers, with a defensive buff they might actually stand up to non-elite infantry once they reach combat. You statically get 5 poiosn each shooting phase, then 5 more stand and shoot, then about 8 if they charge and have lower I, this is not including normal would (of which there wont be much against many things). Without an ancient its not viable, singer has to go IN the unit and thus will get killed, a lot like seaguard only better IMO.

Zinch
22-08-2014, 11:34
My WE base list (I am always changing lists for the sake of it) is something like this:

Ancient Treeman (lv4)

Spellsinger (lv1 beasts with dispell scroll)
Spellsinger (lv1 beasts)

BSB (with HoDA)

4x 10 Glade guard (with hagbane arrows and banner)

2x 5 Deepwood Scouts (with Sunstar arrows)

14 Wild riders (with shield and banner)

2x Treeman

8 Waystalkers

~2500 points

Life is very good with 3 treemen and to resurrect/protect the wild riders and Beasts can make them a lot more threatening (remember it's one point easier to cast a spell on those treemen and wild riders)

Landonelf
24-08-2014, 23:46
I play him alot and have had alot of success. He needs to be taken naked. Here are my uses for him

1) 18" inspiring presence LD10
2) Backup mage. Your level 4 will be doing all the heavy lifting. TMA is for those bad situations where you lose your level 4.
3) Backfield cleanup. Yes the stats arent great, but he is still a S5 monster with great saves. Deploy him facing backwards and watch scouts, ambushers, and cheap solo characters wet their pants.
4) Anvil. Big unit of rats or gobbos or zombies sneaking up on you? Throw the ancient at them. Will win the grind war and keeps your general safe from shooting. Most of lore of life is castable in combat.

He is a toolbox and provides plenty of utility for his cost.

rolly_321
25-08-2014, 01:04
Okay, I'll give him a go. I suppose even naked he's still a L3 when in a forest.

I hadn't realised treemen and WR count as beasts for lore of beasts spells, good point Zinch.

popisdead
03-09-2014, 15:58
I think it just boils down to two factors.
A) An irrational fear of cannons.


Fear of them would be irrational. However it is rational to know they are more destructing in Fantasy than anything in 40k which is a game with frickin' laser and for the points they are too good with their perfect accuracy and irrationally high destructive nature.

Spiney Norman
03-09-2014, 20:14
I think it just boils down to two factors.
A) An perfectly rational fear of (flaming) cannons

Fixed that for you
In a treeman ancient's case that are is perfectly rational, with no access to better than a 6++ and no regenerating units to act as a 'wind-break' one shot from a Khorne skull cannon is enough to end your L4 monstrous wizard, and two to three hits from any other cannon will accomplish the same thing.

There are plenty of monsters out there that can deal with cannons, but the treeman ancient (or any other treeman for that matter) in not one of them.

If you are playing an army you know does not have access to cannons, then he's an OK choice, but he's still very 'eggs in one basket' whichever way you slice it, an elven spell weaver is usually a better option, if only for the greater choice of lores.

Brother Fenix
03-09-2014, 20:35
Use him all the time. Sure he dies now and again, but he lives through the entire battle the majority of the time. As noted above, the 18" leadership bubble is a huge boon, life magic suits him, and even though his combat stats aren't as buffed as the regular treeman, he can hold his own with a little help from another unit, and never underestimate the thunderstomp.

decker_cky
04-09-2014, 04:27
Fixed that for you
In a treeman ancient's case that are is perfectly rational, with no access to better than a 6++ and no regenerating units to act as a 'wind-break' one shot from a Khorne skull cannon is enough to end your L4 monstrous wizard, and two to three hits from any other cannon will accomplish the same thing.

There are plenty of monsters out there that can deal with cannons, but the treeman ancient (or any other treeman for that matter) in not one of them.

If you are playing an army you know does not have access to cannons, then he's an OK choice, but he's still very 'eggs in one basket' whichever way you slice it, an elven spell weaver is usually a better option, if only for the greater choice of lores.

To be fair....if you don't drop him in a turn, a L4 ancient stands a good chance of healing right back up. It's the flaming cannons and spells that really make a mess of things. What a difference letting them take 5 pts of magic items would make.

Wesser
04-09-2014, 06:43
I think it just boils down to two factors.

B) People seem to think the only way to play WE is by packing as much shooting into their army as possible (i.e. a gunline). For further evidence of this, stop into the WE tactics forum sometime. It's almost depressing seeing 80% or more of the lists people post are just variations on shooting units, with Wild Riders to clean up the mess. Try pointing it out to people and the response is usually something like "what?! It's not a gunline because _______".

Or maybe it's because Wood Elf Archers are so ******* iconic and the Glade Guard models (despite being older) still blows the new Eternal Guard kit away?

As for the Ancient we've been stuck with Life/Beasts for a while and most us are tired of what's simply not a very awesome lore.....

Althwen
04-09-2014, 10:28
I almost fielded a treeman ancient yesterday since I knew I wouldnt be facing too much artillery. The thing that stopped me in the end however, was lore of life.
I dislike that lore so much. It's a lore that isnt there to win but to ensure you don't lose.
The only real gamechanger in there is Dwellers. And I hate that spell for obvious reasons.
So I think you'll always be better off with other lores, preferably shadow, but anything is better than life.

inquisitorsz
09-10-2014, 06:32
My biggest problems with the treeman ancient are as follows:

Can't take magic items. So he has a 3+/6++ and flammable.
Limited to a single lore (life). It's not bad but it's not as good as most other ones (shadow and high are my favorites)
When upgraded to Lvl4 he's 140 points more than a Lvl4 Spellweaver. That's 100pts of items the elf can take, or another level 2 mage (140 with a dispel scroll).
In anything under 2500pts he'll be your general and won't be able to hide in units (or behind anything that isn't a tower). Yes it can probably heal itself a bit, and reduce the risks of miscasts but you're paying a lot of points for less choice and a slightly more fighty mage which is arguably easier to kill than a normal one hiding in a unit.

I just don't think the extra points are worth it for a character that's significantly weaker than a normal treeman. The ancient takes up 360pts of lord choice (which means he'll be your only lord in 2000pts). If he was the same stats as a normal treeman + the wizard levels.... then I'd consider it. Then, the points make more sense. he's about 135 more than the normal treeman so if you only got lvl 2 lore of life and a lord choice instead of rare... then you could put more points into waywatchers and still take a nice treeman.
As it stands, just not worth the high points cost.

Spiney Norman
09-10-2014, 07:11
B) People seem to think the only way to play WE is by packing as much shooting into their army as possible (i.e. a gunline). For further evidence of this, stop into the WE tactics forum sometime. It's almost depressing seeing 80% or more of the lists people post are just variations on shooting units, with Wild Riders to clean up the mess. Try pointing it out to people and the response is usually something like "what?! It's not a gunline because _______".

The thing is that shooty avoidance is really the only competitive trick the current wood elf book has up its sleeve (which I get, makes it really annoying). Its never going to win prizes as a close combat army. Complaining about the dominating playstyle of an army when the book was specifically designed that way doesn't make a whole lot of sense.


Or maybe it's because Wood Elf Archers are so ******* iconic and the Glade Guard models (despite being older) still blows the new Eternal Guard kit away?

As for the Ancient we've been stuck with Life/Beasts for a while and most us are tired of what's simply not a very awesome lore.....

Well we can agree to disagree on that, I think the wild wood rangers are some of the best models GW has produced this year taking into account the price point and the model quality, they are definitely a step up from the glade guard models which are still somewhat awkward to pose and rank up IMHO. Then again I suppose they should be since they represent nearly a decade of development in making models.

DocDropPod
11-10-2014, 07:13
Could you not just hide your TMA in or behind a forest to avoid cannon fire? Thusly allowing your TMA to boost your army from relative safety?


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Rudra34
12-10-2014, 19:37
Not with todays laser cannons that can shoot right through a forest.