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Dark_Mage99
29-08-2014, 21:14
Something came up in a game today. My opponent said a war machine can't pivot 360 degrees in the shooting phase - it can only pivot towards a target it has selected using the normal rules for shooting.

Ie:

1. Choose target within your line of sight

2. Pivot towards your target

Is this the rule?

I've always just played you can rotate to shoot anything...

Arthain
29-08-2014, 22:44
Basically yes, he's right. The rules tell you to pivot towards your target. Which requires a target to be had.

Then again, many WMs (not all) don't require front arc, and remember that True Line of Sight is not linked to nor limited by Front Arc, so you can theoretically see outside of your front arc, select it as target, and pivot towards it.

Kalandros
30-08-2014, 01:12
IIRC FAQ undoes this ruling and allows you to pivot and then target.

Arthain
31-08-2014, 15:28
Quote, sir?

theunwantedbeing
31-08-2014, 15:44
Check the FAQ (http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer/WARHAMMER-RULEBOOK-.pdf)
3rd page

Arthain
31-08-2014, 15:46
None of the referenced states otherwise as far as I ca tell

Page 109 – Shooting with War Machines.
Change “Unless specified otherwise, all war machine
weapons...” to “Unless specified otherwise, all weapons in this
section (and all other weapons mounted on war machines)...”

Page 112 – Cannons, Choosing a Target.
Change “[...]pivot in the Movement phase[...]” to “[...]pivot
in the Shooting phase[...]” in the last sentence of the first
paragraph.

Page 114 – Stone Throwers, Firing a Stone Thrower.
Change “[...]place it anywhere completely within the war
machine’s line of sight,[...]” to “[...]place it anywhere with the
central hole within the war machine’s line of sight,[...]” in the
first sentence.

Kalandros
31-08-2014, 16:18
What are you not reading the same thing as I am?


Page 112 – Cannons, Choosing a Target.
Change “[...]pivot in the Movement phase[...]” to “[...]pivot
in the Shooting phase[...]” in the last sentence of the first
paragraph.

Arthain
31-08-2014, 16:34
So?

Choose a Target
Nominate a point within the War Machine's line of sight and that it's not outside the cannon's maximum range. Your target does not have to be an enemy model, it can be a point in the ground if you wish. Remember that the War Machines are allowed to pivot in the Shooting phase, the better to bring your chosen target into the weapon's Line of Sight.

So that actually means what the OP states. That WMs pivot towards their target. In order to do this, you have to choose the target before you pivot. For cannons it's usually pointless, but Bolt Throwers require Front Arc as well as Line of Sight, so they cannot pivot and then fire at something which was outside its front arc before the pivot.

FatTrucker
31-08-2014, 17:06
The pivot has nothing to do with Line of site.
Previously you would pivot the cannon in the movement phase to face what it wanted to shoot at and put the target in its line of sight.
The FAQ has changed that so now you make that pivot to face your target in the shooting phase instead of the movement phase.

Arthain
31-08-2014, 17:10
The FAQ has changed that so now you make that pivot to face your target in the shooting phase instead of the movement phase

Exactly. Therefore, in oder to face your target, you must have had selected it already. Therefore, the correct sequence is:
- Choose target (LoS, range and/or front arc may apply depending on the kind of WM)
- Pivot towards target (to better bring the target into your LoS, according to my above quote)
- Carry out the shot (following the adequate rules for cannons/bolts/Stone Throwers...)

olderplayer
31-08-2014, 17:15
Just to clarify: War machines have no facing per the BRB. They have 360 degree line of sight as a result. The pivot is just to represent what the machine is shooting at. The only issue for line of sight is whether the WM can actually see the target or not due to intervening terrain and models.

Arthain
31-08-2014, 17:57
Just to clarify: War machines have no facing per the BRB. They have 360 degree line of sight as a result. The pivot is just to represent what the machine is shooting at. The only issue for line of sight is whether the WM can actually see the target or not due to intervening terrain and models.

Wrong. War Machines have no arcs for combat purposes. For other purposes, they are not exempt from arcs.

They do indeed have 360 Line of Sight, as Line of Sight is something totally unrelated to Front Arc.

Therefore a cannon (only needs LoS+range) can shoot out of his Front Arc, whereas a Bolt Thrower (follows all the rules for normal shooting, ie: Front Arc, LoS, Range) cannot.

olderplayer
01-09-2014, 04:08
Wrong. War Machines have no arcs for combat purposes. For other purposes, they are not exempt from arcs.

They do indeed have 360 Line of Sight, as Line of Sight is something totally unrelated to Front Arc.

Therefore a cannon (only needs LoS+range) can shoot out of his Front Arc, whereas a Bolt Thrower (follows all the rules for normal shooting, ie: Front Arc, LoS, Range) cannot.

Not a big deal, but, actually, all the rules say is that pivot does not count as moving, a war machine may pivot to bring a target into line of sight, and line of sight is measured and evaluated from the firing point. You are correct that bolt throwers follow the rules for normal shooting but what does that mean for a war machine that may pivot 360 degrees without consituting moving? Where does it say that war machines have a facing when they do not have a base and distance to a war machine is measured to the body of the war machine and not a base?

Arthain
01-09-2014, 07:05
All models have Front, Rear and Flank Arcs. General rulings. WMs are not geerally exempt from this. They only are for combat purposes. How to work out the WM's arcs is another matter entirely, but it's not that difficult to do with a little willing.

Blkc57
01-09-2014, 07:13
All models have Front, Rear and Flank Arcs. General rulings. WMs are not geerally exempt from this. They only are for combat purposes. How to work out the WM's arcs is another matter entirely, but it's not that difficult to do with a little willing.

Actually warmachines are exempt Arthain, just because you can't draw arcs on a model that has no base or on a round base with no corners. The Rules as written describe that arcs are drawn out from the corners of the units base at 45 degree angles, an impossibility for warmachines. If you are giving them arcs then go ahead, but thats really a house rule and not the way it actually tells you as well as demonstrates in the picture how to do it on page 5. Its also probably the reason why the book on page 110 tells you that warmachines have no flanks or rear for combat.

Arthain
01-09-2014, 07:29
It says that they do have arcs for combat tho, which implies that they have arcs for non-combat.

Also if they don't have arcs, then BTs can't shoot at all, since they cannot abide by the normal rule of shooting "target must lie, at least partially, within the shooter's front arc"

Blkc57
01-09-2014, 07:42
Edited for clarlity: Except all warmachines have their own rule which allows the pivot (which we are arguing about), so already warmachines have an exception to the "normal" rules of shooting.

Also I believe you mean that because it says they DON'T have the arcs for combat purposes, that must mean that they have them for non-combat purposes. But it doesn't say that all. It is equally as likely that they have them for no purposes for arcs and they only mention combat because the section concerns fighting in close combat. As it stands there is no way to actually draw arcs on a Warmachine.

Kalandros
01-09-2014, 17:01
Badly written rules everywhere as usual.

Arthain
01-09-2014, 19:00
Edited for clarlity: Except all warmachines have their own rule which allows the pivot (which we are arguing about), so already warmachines have an exception to the "normal" rules of shooting.

Also I believe you mean that because it says they DON'T have the arcs for combat purposes, that must mean that they have them for non-combat purposes. But it doesn't say that all. It is equally as likely that they have them for no purposes for arcs and they only mention combat because the section concerns fighting in close combat. As it stands there is no way to actually draw arcs on a Warmachine.

WMs can pivot, yes, but AFTER selecting target. BTs select target according to normal shooting rules. They don't work 100% like normal shooting, but they choose target like normal shooting. Therefore Front Arc. Or it cannot chose a target at all if it does't have a Front Arc, as you claim, since if it doesn't have a Front Arc, it is impossible for any potential target to be within the BTs Front Arc...:rolleyes:

Except that the general rules state that all models have arcs, no exceptions.

olderplayer
01-09-2014, 20:30
All models have Front, Rear and Flank Arcs. General rulings. WMs are not geerally exempt from this. They only are for combat purposes. How to work out the WM's arcs is another matter entirely, but it's not that difficult to do with a little willing.

There is nothing in the rules saying this given that we only have the statement that warmachines do not have a base and do not have a facing for combat purposes. WMs are an exception to the rule. Like I said, it is really not a big issue since WMs have 360 degree ability to pivot to shoot but the rules are pretty clear that WMs do not have a facing and without a square base there really is not the ability to strictly determine facing (using the special template to determine front arc and facing) like there is with other models.

Arthain
01-09-2014, 22:18
Point me to a section of the rules which states WM don't have arcs.
I can point you to a section which says that all models have.

Furthermore, and for the sake of the argument, assuming you were right and WMs don't have arcs. The BTs are required to choose its target according to normal shooting rules, which includes the target being in the front arc. If the BT does't have a Front Arc, how can it possibly choose a target?

Bad rules design I agree. Just like railroading a random mover and whatnot. But rules design or intention is not the point of this forum.

Figment187
02-09-2014, 04:54
You don't need to be pointed to a section about front arcs. You need to read on page 109 Shooting with War Machines. It tells you exactly how to fire and pick your target.

"Line of sight is always taken from the chosen firing point(i.e. its muzzle or crossbar,in the same way as for its range)-BEFORE YOU FIRE THE WAR MACHINE, PIVOT IT TO FACE YOUR CHOSEN TARGET(this doesn't count as moving). For war machine weapons that require Ballistic Skill, use the highest Ballistic Skill amongst the crew to resolve the shot."

So obviously you don't pick a target until AFTER you pivot, as per the rules. Not rocket science. I would love to see someone try and pull this nonsense at a tournement, tell someone that they can't pivot to fire at something that's not in a cannons front arc that it doesn't have.

Arthain
02-09-2014, 15:11
BEFORE YOU FIRE THE WAR MACHINE, PIVOT IT TO FACE YOUR CHOSEN TARGET

Sorry but you probably don't understand what you yourself have written. This sencente means exactly what the OP and me are stating:
1st Chose your target
2nd Pivot towards your target
3rd Fire the War Machine

Pivot it to face your chosen target. "chosen target"'s tense indicates that it is already done. So the target is chosen before you pivot the war machine. After both things are done, you actually fire it (usually in the form of dices and/or templates)

FatTrucker
02-09-2014, 15:12
The whole point of the pivot is to put a target into its front arc. Else why have a pivot if the target is already in its front arc?
I guess people can house rule it however they like, but the rule is pivot the cannon first, to put its chosen target point in its front arc.
State distance.
Fire.

When the pivot was in the movement phase are people saying that you were only allowed to pivot it toward something that was already in its front arc?
All that's changed is they moved it from movement phase to shooting phase, they changed absolutely nothing else about the process.

Arthain
02-09-2014, 15:16
Cannons don't need front arc to choose its target.

Bolt Throwers do. They can pivot towards its target, but cannot choose a target outside their front arc.

The pivot's purpose can be either:
a) None. It's a rule, don't try to argue interpretations, purposes, or what could be the rules' writer thinking.
b) Track a moving unit as it moves.
c) Opposite, allow one unit to "lure" the BT to face one flank of the table, while another unit moves by the opposite side and is left out of the BT's front arc and attencion.
d) Visual purpose, as it is much more cinematic if the BT's facing directly towards its target.

olderplayer
02-09-2014, 15:19
You don't need to be pointed to a section about front arcs. You need to read on page 109 Shooting with War Machines. It tells you exactly how to fire and pick your target.

"Line of sight is always taken from the chosen firing point(i.e. its muzzle or crossbar,in the same way as for its range)-BEFORE YOU FIRE THE WAR MACHINE, PIVOT IT TO FACE YOUR CHOSEN TARGET(this doesn't count as moving). For war machine weapons that require Ballistic Skill, use the highest Ballistic Skill amongst the crew to resolve the shot."

So obviously you don't pick a target until AFTER you pivot, as per the rules. Not rocket science. I would love to see someone try and pull this nonsense at a tournement, tell someone that they can't pivot to fire at something that's not in a cannons front arc that it doesn't have.

Yes, that is my point. The debate is a bit meaningless given the clear RAW that one can pivot to shoot with 360 degrees line of sight in the shooting phase per the rules and FAQ.

Arthain, you are correct that the rules do not clearly say that the war machine has no facing or forward arc (outside of combat, where the rules clearly say that the WM has no flanks or rear in combat on page 110). However, page 109 clearly says WM models "do not normally have bases". Without bases, forward arc measurement is a bit dicey at best. As noted on that page, because a war machine does not have a base, units [successfully] charging "a war machine do not have to 'close the door' to align-they just have to compete the charge in such a manner that they are touching the war machine's body." Range is measured from the "muzzle of the gun (...) or the crossbar (...)." In that sense, it just works a lot better to treat a war machine as though it has no facing, no forward arc, since one can pivot to ensure line of sight as others have noted. I guess one could argue that one could use the length of the barrell of the gun or arrow on the cross bow or body to determine the perpendicular angle and the forward arc, but it would just waste everyone's time in a game.

Arthain
02-09-2014, 15:45
Agree, that's sensible. That's what I do actually, both in my house-ruled games (Mainly ETC) as in my regular, pick-up games. Don't be a dick, fun's fun and all that. But it's not what the rules say. This is a forum about rules, not about sportmanship/gameflow/houserules/whatnot.

Lorcryst
06-09-2014, 12:38
d) Visual purpose, as it is much more cinematic if the BT's facing directly towards its target.

This, right there, is the correct answer. Several pages of the BRB and the FAQs state that Warmachines don't have bases (ergo, no clear way of determining arcs), need Line of Sight but have a 360 field of view, and don't actually *NEED* to pivot towards their chosen target to be able to fire ... it's just nicer and more pleasing to the eyes when they are aligned to their target.

Only exception to the "cosmetic" ruling that I could see is for cannons, because pivoting could shave half and inch from the distance between the muzzle of the cannon and they targeted unit/point ... and even then it's fiddly.

Montegue
06-09-2014, 16:19
The FAQ and the rules are clear. line of sight is measured from the barrel/bolt/cross bar. You can see 360 degrees for the purposes of tracing line of sight. You pick the target within 360 degrees, you pivot, you shoot. It's cosmetic. There are no arcs on a war machine (Which is why people can do the funny 90 degree turn into an optimal overrun direction when they charge a war machine. It has no front or flanks).

Arthain
06-09-2014, 16:24
There are no arcs on a war machine

Again. Where is the rules reference to back this up?

Yes you can see 360. Everyone can in 8th. Still you are limited by front arc for many actions, like charging, or BS shooting (which includes Bolt Throwers, although not cannons).

Look at p5 and p10. Look at the charge section. LoS and Front Arc are two completely separated and unrelated things.

Linking both together is a very old 7th ed hangover.

Lorcryst
06-09-2014, 18:04
Again. Where is the rules reference to back this up?

Yes you can see 360. Everyone can in 8th. Still you are limited by front arc for many actions, like charging, or BS shooting (which includes Bolt Throwers, although not cannons).

Look at p5 and p10. Look at the charge section. LoS and Front Arc are two completely separated and unrelated things.

Linking both together is a very old 7th ed hangover.

It's not a rule reference per se, it's the fact that Warmachine are said to be without bases and that you measure arcs from the base of a model.

And limiting a Bolt Thrower to a hard to discern front arc (unless you based it on a square/rectangular base, which you don't have to do, and which is not "GW tournament legal" since the models don't come with bases) for shooting purposes is silly, they can see 360 but not shoot ...

Also, ranked units DON'T have a 360 field of vision ... only lone models have that, when a model is in a ranked unit, he has a field of vision limited to the front arc of the unit.
Meaning a wizard hidden in a bunker CANNOT shoot his spells outside the front arc of the unit.

Arthain
06-09-2014, 21:59
It's not a rule reference per se, it's the fact that Warmachine are said to be without bases and that you measure arcs from the base of a model.

And limiting a Bolt Thrower to a hard to discern front arc (unless you based it on a square/rectangular base, which you don't have to do, and which is not "GW tournament legal" since the models don't come with bases) for shooting purposes is silly, they can see 360 but not shoot ...

Also, ranked units DON'T have a 360 field of vision ... only lone models have that, when a model is in a ranked unit, he has a field of vision limited to the front arc of the unit.
Meaning a wizard hidden in a bunker CANNOT shoot his spells outside the front arc of the unit.

By RAW, the existence of WM's arcs is, at best, unclear. There are however 2 places which indicate that they exists (where it says that all models have arcs, and where it says that WM's don't have arcs for the purposes of combat result), while there's none to indicate that it does't exist, apart from a difficulty to discern them (Which shouldn't be so difficult, as you can just measure 45 from the "straight ahead" facing as the BRB tells you to)

I fact, the BRBp5 Facing, where Arcs are explained, doesn't mention bases at all.

As a result, when you charge a WM, you have to contact it in the right facing. Just like a normal charge. Except that you don't close the door (as per BRB rules). This means that you can make a tactical wheel, but this wheel has certain limits (as long as you hit the WM from the right arc.

Again, do you have a rules reference to claim that ranked units don't have 360?

Lorcryst
07-09-2014, 09:55
I have to agree with the absence of a clearly defined section on arcs, you're right about that one.

But I cannot find anywhere, either on P5 describing facings, on P10 talking about Line of Sight, on P31 describing how a Wizard chooses a target or on P39 in the Shooting section under the heading "check that the shooter can see the target" a single reference about 360 field of vision, all those sections talk about "forward arc" ... same thing in the Warmachines section, P109 under "Shooting with War Machines", they specify from where the line of sight is taken (choosen firing point instead of the eyes of the models as per the normal Line of Sight rules on P10).

I've checked the FAQs too, no mention anywhere of 360 field of vision, just "forward arc" and "must see at least 50% of the model, not counting wings, tails, banners and big weapons" ...

So, once more, I have to admit that I was wrong ... Warmachines have arcs (albeit a bit harder to determine since they don't usually have bases, but nothing impossible) and must choose their targets in Line of Sight ... but apparently Line of Sight is not a 360 field of vision but somewhere within the forward arc and not obscured by terrain, other models etc.
They can pivot in the shooting phase according to the FAQ, but must still be able to see their target before the pivot.

I'm now wondering from where the 360 field of vision comes, because I cannot find a single reference to that ...

Ossirian
07-09-2014, 10:11
Nobody has 360 vision. Targets are chosen in the front 90. War machines can pivot in the shooting phase which only has a gameplay point if it is to face a chosen target.
This doesn't include cannon mounted chariots or war machine like monsters. Pivoting these counts as moving like everything else. A hellcannon that pivots cannot shoot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Arthain
07-09-2014, 12:21
360 comes from p10. Where it explains Line of Sight. In that explanation, Line of Sight is not limited by front arc. Only that the model can see what it can actually see (commonly called True Line of Sight). So if the model is high enough, it might be able to see over a hill or an impassable. And the vision of the model, is not limited to a tunnel vision of just 90 forwards. Just like any other person, who has a True arc of sight much wider than 90 (Without even moving your neck or your eyes, you can see barely over 180. Once you start moving your eyes and your neck you can see 360 without even needing to move your chest, hips or feet)

As I said before Front Arc and Line of Sight are two completely independent and unrelated rules mechanisms.

Lorcryst
07-09-2014, 12:50
Hmmm ...

I still can't find any explicit mention of a 360 field of vision, and since you can only charge/shooting/magic things in your front arc (on top of having LoS to your target), I fail to see how the two (LoS and Front Arc) are independent and unrelated ... even more so when you have things like "in the front arc AND in line of sight" ...

Anyway, I might be confusing things with previous editions where ranked unit had a limited field of vision tied to their front arc.

On a side note : human vision is limited to roughly 120, with a "conscious focus" on the 80 in front of your eyes (your brain can percieve more than the 80, but you need to move your eyes towards items in that "corner of the eye" field to focus on them, and it's totally unconscious and an ingrained reflex), and you cannot see directly behing you without turning your head, shoulders and eyes, unless your cervical vertebrae are totally worn, allowing your head to turn farther than a "normal" human.

That's why spectacle-wearers like me have lenses that don't cover half our faces, the focal zone is rather limited.

Arthain
07-09-2014, 13:05
Exactly, you said it yourself:
in the front arc AND in line of sight
This implies that both things are different things and you need to have both in order to shoot/charge/Magic Missile. If LoS implies Front Arc, then no need to state that you need FA AND LoS. Note however that Direct Damage only needs Front Arc while not needing LoS. Just like Cannon only needs LoS and no Front Arc.

Often both are needed. But still they are two independent things. Just like to shoot/Magic Missile/Charge something you need LoS and Range. But you wouldn't claim that LoS is only limited to your Range, would you? Both are similarly independent.

Lorcryst
07-09-2014, 13:17
Ah yes, I see that now ... not being a native english speaker and doing too many things at once crossed some neurons in my brain, and I was confuzzled :p

Dark_Mage99
08-09-2014, 00:15
There is no such thing as 360 vision. A model can see what it can see. So how do war machines get 360 sight?

Line of sight is taken from the muzzle of the cannon, therefore it essentially does have a "forward arc" because it can only see what lies in front of it.

Of the enemies in its line of sight, it has to choose a target and can pivot to face it.

It cannot pivot before it has a target, because it must pivot towards its target - and, crucially, it can only have a target that's within sight of its muzzle.

Arthain
08-09-2014, 07:25
Why would the muzzle have only and exactly a 360 LoS?

I can understand and argument stating that it's not 360. But I find it very hard to defend exactly 90. Also it should surely vary from one model to another, shouldn't it?

Lorcryst
08-09-2014, 09:45
Actually you can pivot in the movement phase.
Pg.112, Choose target part, "Remember that war machines are allowed to pivot in the movement phase, the better to bring your chosen target into the weapon's line of sight"

That was changed by the FAQ to pivot during the shooting phase (exact reference higher in this thread).

Malagor
08-09-2014, 09:45
That was changed by the FAQ to pivot during the shooting phase (exact reference higher in this thread).
Forgot about that hence I deleted my post :p

Dark_Mage99
08-09-2014, 11:17
Why would the muzzle have only and exactly a 360 LoS?

I can understand and argument stating that it's not 360. But I find it very hard to defend exactly 90. Also it should surely vary from one model to another, shouldn't it?

I didn't say it would have 360 degree LoS, I said it wouldn't. How can it?

I'm not sure how it would vary too much...

Each weapon has LoS from its firing point. Whether that is an arrow head or a cannon muzzle, it's essentially the same thing.

Arthain
08-09-2014, 13:05
How would you work out a war machine's firing Line of Sight arc? (NOT Front Arc)

Dark_Mage99
08-09-2014, 14:02
How would you work out a war machine's firing Line of Sight arc? (NOT Front Arc)

There are rules for this on page 109:

Measure from the body of the weapon (except cannons use muzzle of the gun).

I would therefore use a LoS cone from the cannon's muzzle, as if the corners of the cannon muzzle were the corners of its "base".

Arthain
08-09-2014, 14:23
Where does it say that Line of Sight has anything to do with any corner's base at all?

Again, you are linking LoS and Front Arc together, when they are independent rules. Just like Range and LoS are two separated things (both of which you often need in order to shoot at something). Similarly, LoS and Front Arc are two separated things, which you often (but not always) need in order to shoot at something.

Dark_Mage99
08-09-2014, 14:59
Where does it say that Line of Sight has anything to do with any corner's base at all?

Again, you are linking LoS and Front Arc together, when they are independent rules. Just like Range and LoS are two separated things (both of which you often need in order to shoot at something). Similarly, LoS and Front Arc are two separated things, which you often (but not always) need in order to shoot at something.


No I'm not.

I simply said where I would measure LoS from, following the rules in the book.

A cannon can only see what it can see from the muzzle. Get down to eye level at the muzzle and pick a target. It can then pivot to face that target.

Arthain
08-09-2014, 15:10
How wide an arc would that make?

Lorcryst
08-09-2014, 15:39
90 as all the arcs are ?

Dunno really, it could also be a straight line as wide as the barrel ...

Arthain
08-09-2014, 15:41
Are all arcs 90?

AFAIK only Front Arc, Rear Arc, and Flank Arc are 90.

The Line of Sight arc is not limited to 90 anywhere in the rules. Therefore my question.

Dark_Mage99
08-09-2014, 16:15
Line of sight is line of sight. You can see what you can see.

We can roughly see 90 degrees, although things can be blurry up to almost 180 degrees. We cannot see any further than that.

If you wanted to argue that your cannon can see 180 degrees I probably wouldn't have a problem with it, but otherwise I would just use 90 degrees as that's typically what all line of sight is.

That's why front arc is 90 degrees from each edge, because the model on the left can see 90, and the model on the right can see 90. And if it's a single model, well, it can see 90.

Either way, 360 degree behind you shots are out of the question.

Arthain
08-09-2014, 16:24
I don't have any cannon, but yes, that's the deal.

Except Bolt Throwers and Hellblaster, which need Front Arc as well as Line of Sight, other WMs (Cannons and Stone Throwers) are not constrained by Front Arc

chrisstokes
23-03-2015, 00:36
Guys i realise im really late to the game but can anyone actually quote a brb or faq pg ref for where it says warmachines shoot in or even have front arcs? I cant see any. Seems crystal clear to be from brb that you pivot to make sure u can shoot what you intend to shoot. Point ur warmachine directly at it and dont misfire. Shooting arcs are only mentioned in relation to ranked up skirmish shooting. Where they have bases and front arcs. I had a discussiin with a TO at an event today about skull cannons and such. Why would they give you a pivot (wm) or a chance to move (IB /Skulcannon) to point at ur target if they then go " dont worry youve still got 90 degrees to shoot in". It seems moronic and i dont understand the logic of people playing that way.

Anyone had any resolution after this post fizzled out?

FatTrucker
24-03-2015, 16:06
If what you want to shoot is already in LoS then the pivot would be unnecessary. The whole point of making a pivot is to put a target into the weapons LoS.
When the pivot was in the movement phase the point was moot, all they've done is move it to the shooting phase, probably to allow artillery to react to changes that might occur during the magic phase. Nothing else has changed