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EvanM
30-08-2014, 03:29
Obviously non dwarf armies, since they cant run it except the anvil which isnt great.

I am saying can you run ANY army without any wizards/bound spells?

i think it should be somewhat competitve to run a list without magic, perhaps empire with a focus on guns (where the idea originates) or pretty much ANY army that has a way to be played without magic

Rudra34
30-08-2014, 04:07
Its an uphill battle, just ask anyone who has tried to play mono Khorne recently. Leaving out magic is skipping out on an entire phase of the game, and leaving yourself vulnerable to enemy spells. In low point games it doesn't matter as much, but in anything over 1200 or so you will be punished for not taking magic. The points you save on casters rarely, if ever, makes up for the lack of a magic phase.

EvanM
30-08-2014, 04:42
i have an idea about this. you COULD not take magic if taking wizards ONLY allowed offense, like if there was no dispel bonuses from wizard level then you would not need a lvl4 at all because without one you would have the same magical defense. (currently, without one, the enemy magic is at least TWICE as good PLUS you dont get to use spells at all either).

also, if winds of magic wasnt "constant" (only 2d6 + channel) but instead based on number of wizards( like 1 dice per wizard level or something) then you could both take 2 lvl4s or more or just not take any at all.

jackers
30-08-2014, 07:48
This is my main problem with 8th. If you want to be competitive you basically HAVE to take at least 1 lvl 4 or you are just handicapping yourself. (Especially now that magic resistance is such a poor ability.) I'm having the same problem with a chaos army that I'm trying to do because I really don't want to take sorcerers, but every time I try to make a list, I just realise that I am going to get destroyed in my opponents magic phase.

ewar
30-08-2014, 08:12
The magic phase is fundamental to warhammer and in many ways the designers put it forward as a defining aspect of the game. It's like the shooting phase in 40k - yes, you could run an army without a single gun in the 41st millenium, but don't be surprised when it gets shot off the table.

I don't think it necessarily follows that you should be able to exclude one entire (important) phase of the game and still hope to be as competitive.

Also, have you actually tried playing games with little to no magic? I think that would teach you more than asking on the net - I for one would be interested to hear how you get on. A level 1 scroll caddy is cheap and will protect you in that one key phase.

jackers
30-08-2014, 09:01
(Disclaimer: This is a rant about my frustration with WHFB, my local scene in particular.)

I understand that it is one if the defining things about WHFB, but I'm not sure I agree with the comparison to the shooting phase in 40k.
The shooting phase is so common in 40k because basically every single model has a gun, as standard, so actively choosing to not use something which every model in your army (Daemons excepted) has by default should have negative consequences, because it is stupid not to use them, lol. Also, Daemons do just fine in 40k with no guns. The issue with the magic phase in WHFB for me is that I don't always want my lord choice to be a lvl 4, or my hero choices to be a pair of lvl 2s.

The direct comparison would be the new 40k psychic phase, since it is a blatant copy paste of the magic phase anyway :p and as such, has exactly the same issue, but it is even worse for some armies, who have no way to improve their psychic defense without allies.

The problem I have is that, by placing so much emphasis on a single phase you homogenize the game. In my local scene, every single army (without exception) has a lvl 4 lord and at least one lvl 2 hero, and the dark elf players (and there are too many of them, lol) also have their 2 units of doomfire warlocks. It seems that from a cursory look over the net this is the gold standard for a start to a list.
Now, I have my Lizardman army, who have their Slann and skink priests, but it would be nice to be able to have an army that can go light on magic and not be at such a big disadvantage. (I'm not saying I think I should be able to ignore magic entirely, but a bit less reliance would be nice. I'm not a huge fan of the 'Go big or go home' thing the magic phase has going on.)
When I first started my Dark Elf army at the release of the new book I tried to just take a scroll caddy, but I got crushed every single game by other DElves and HElves, VCs, Lizards etc, who all used several wizards. Just about the only armies I could beat were other armies with little magic (empire etc), who I utterly crushed, lol. So I got myself some doomfire warlocks and a lvl 4 on steed and everything became much easier.

Grupax
30-08-2014, 09:35
I love my mediocre magic phases.

I make sure I have enough usefull spells to spend all my pd in each magic fase (be they good default or bound)
and 6dice the spells you really want to get through or try to cast all spells with fewer dice.

take a gamble wich of your opponents spells you can let trough...

I only very rarely use a lvl 4 and I really don't think it's that much of a disadvantage. Just spend the points you save wisely and try and kill the opponents casters fast :D
-- and yes sometimes magic superiority and good winds will best you -> but bad rolling on the winds of magic will mess up your opponents plans just the same.

Lord Solar Plexus
30-08-2014, 11:19
In our current season's League I ran "magic light" in 3 out of 5 games. That essentially means no L4. The main reason for doing that was the claim that an L4 is essential.

However, I admit that "magic light" might be a bit deceiving. I had an L2 with the Staff of Sorcery (two games)/Frog Scroll (one game), an L1 w/ Dispel Scroll, a Lumi (1 DD, one bound) and a Hurri (1 PD, one bound), and in one game a Warrior Priest (1 channel, 3 bounds).

I also took a similar non-L4 list to at least three tournaments. Never made it to first place but at the same time I never felt that was due to not having an L4.

In games of 1k or less, I often leave out magic completely. An L4 I find too expensive at this level and an L2 usually runs into the problem of having a spell for the early (magic missile) and one for the late-game (hex/buff), which just leads to six-dicing and throwing all DD into dispelling - not much of a phase. Of course having a WP and then trying to cast all bounds in CC is another matter.

rolly_321
30-08-2014, 11:44
It's not impossible, dwarfs do it just fine.

I think any army can do it really, some better than others though. The important thing is you're going have to tailor the list around not having a magic phase.
This really limits a lot of the options, IMO the basically fall into these categories:
- Lots of artillery.
- Deathstar with gimmicks (eg: World Dragon banner)
- Character assassination and avoidance. (eg: msu wood elves with lots of Waystalers, eagles and warhawk riders).

In general, you can still have a fun game without magic, however, I'd avoid it in the tournament scene.

EvanM
30-08-2014, 12:33
see thats the other thing, in a small game magic SUCKS. you get 2d6 dice for you lvl 2 to try and cast 1 spell.... so of course you HAVE to 6 dice it because your opponent has 5 dispel dice to use and thats just stupid. Also the fact that the lvl 4 gives you +4 to dispel really no me likey.
THATs the rule that takes the cake for making a lvl 4 essential.

See i devised a (before i post this, just so you know, I KNOW no one is going to like this idea, but it shows a system where magic scales with the size of the battle and you dont actually have to take magic at all if you dont want too) different ruleset for magic.......

Thesis: Magic is the most destructive and unreliable force in warhammer, which it should be. However magic is complicated, it takes an extremely long time to play the magic phase, and magic is so powerful that it requires a significant investment to defend against.


Changes:
⦁ no winds of magic
⦁ no channel
⦁ no dispelling*
⦁ no loss of focus
⦁ wizard level = # of dice they have to use (no sharing)
⦁ miscast on 2 6's, different chart for it
⦁ get to pick your spells, still 1 spell per level


The magic phase becomes an individual effort by several wizards. There are no fickle winds to answer to, and there is no dispelling (with some exceptions). There is no bonus to cast from wizard level either, so dispelling is less important as spells will be failed to cast much more often.


Miscast chart: this chart is based on the casting total when you miscast, it starts at 12 for 2 6's and goes up to 24 (maximum 4 dice that are all 6's).


12-14 - the spell fails to cast correctly and everyone in the target unit becomes quesy
15-17 - wizard and every model in base contact takes 1 S10 hit
18-21 - wizard loses 1 wizard level and the spell he just cast
22-23 - spell is also "cast" as if by the other player on a valid unit of his choosing
24+ - the wizard's entire unit takes 1 S10 hit for every wound they have


******ANYWAY i know you wont like this idea but what it suggests is a world where you dont have to spend endless hours thinking about what spell to cast, you dont need a lvl 4 for magic defense because he isnt useful for it at all, and the system scales completely for different points levels. you can take just a lvl1 or 3 lvl4's.

I know its rough and i wasnt even gonna post this but it shows my point well, i suppose

N00B
30-08-2014, 13:04
Woodelves can just about manage it. Enough units that hexes and buffs don't hit too many models, enough avoidance that close combat spells are less likely to be used and enough utility/versatility outside magic to get some of these things done.

Saldiven
30-08-2014, 17:19
I've been running mono-Khorne DOC for several years now. No wizards of any level. The list does all right. I just have to prioritize which spell I really don't want to go off and save all my dispel dice for that one.

MOMUS
30-08-2014, 22:50
I rember a chap running a skaven at with no magic just loads and loads of rats, he did ok with it.

Lord Solar Plexus
31-08-2014, 00:16
Actually, "Dwarfs do it" is misleading, as is the question. "Without magic" also means "without magic defense", and Dwarfs don't do that (usually). If they would usually run without any bounds, spellbreaker runes and whatnot, they could be a prototype but as things stand, they're not without any defense.

EvanM
31-08-2014, 00:20
Yeah you are right. magic defense is different.

does anyone think that theres something wrong with the fact that its almost suicide to run a list without magic? (or magic defense but with 14/15 armies you have almost NO way to get +4 to dispel spells without bringing a lvl 4 to do it)

I think it shouldnt be rediculous to ponder not having magic about as much as not having shooting, but i just do not think theres any way to successfully do it unless if magic gets entirely rewritten in 9th to be more like shooting (taking wizards lets you cast spells but doesnt help you dispel, or have no dispelling at all for anyone)

Acephale
31-08-2014, 14:17
I run my Empire army without magic and it's an uphill battle for sure. I go artillery heavy and focus on shooting, but if you're not favored by the artillery dice gods it can really go to hell pretty fast.

Played an 1800p match against TK yesterday and it was tough, I managed to cannon-snipe his lvl4 in round 3 but by then he had already demolished my greatswords with direct damage spells and buffed his own monstrous cav so that it ate my knights (and my grand master). Then my hellblaster misfired and I could only watch as his deathstar consumed the remnants of my infantry. My master engineer managed to snipe one more of his characters before he fled though, that was a hilarious "last stand".

I do agree that 8th is way too focused on magic - it's just one of the phases after all and it shouldn't be mandatory to take a lvl 4.

sandstorm
31-08-2014, 16:09
Yes.

Prince on Star Dragon, Heavy Armour, Star Lance, Charmed Shield, Golden Crown, OTS

Caradryan on Ashtari
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Lance, Dragon Armour, Shield, BotWD

15 Silver Helms, Full Command
5 Reavers, bows
5 Reavers, bows
5 Reavers, spears

Frostheart Phoenix
Frostheart Phoenix
Great Eagle
Great Eagle

2400

EvanM
31-08-2014, 16:33
Yes.

Prince on Star Dragon, Heavy Armour, Star Lance, Charmed Shield, Golden Crown, OTS

Caradryan on Ashtari
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Lance, Dragon Armour, Shield, BotWD

15 Silver Helms, Full Command
5 Reavers, bows
5 Reavers, bows
5 Reavers, spears

Frostheart Phoenix
Frostheart Phoenix
Great Eagle
Great Eagle

2400

ummm well... you see yes technically you have no magic except OH WAIT everything has a ward save OR BOTWD OR is chaff.

that i suppose is literally the only way to not run magic and its kind of rediculous the list you have to take.

russellmoo
01-09-2014, 03:54
Any list without magic has to compensate for it with a very specialized build. Looking at dwarfs we can put together what a list needs to compete without magic.

1) It needs to have very durable units, meaning units that are tough to kill, and hardly ever run away.
2) It needs to have a way to tale out characters at range. Dwarfs do this with cannons and stone throwers.
3) It needs to be able to neutralize large horde units.
4) It needs to be able to control board space, dwarfs do this through excellent range units, vanguard, or scouts.

These 4 things are done magic in other lists, sometimes supported ny magic and at other times magic is used to augment the armies ability to do these four things.

The above high elf list can do all of the above, so can some mono khorne armies. Skaven can also run an army without magic, but skaven magic is so wonderfully destructive that skaven players hardly ever want to.

EvanM
01-09-2014, 06:17
high elves monster mashing isnt exactly any better, its saying sure you can not take magic as long as you take 4 monsters and a silver helm deathstar with BOTWD.

Wesser
01-09-2014, 06:52
It depends

My main army is Vampires and being a fan of the actual vampires....really wish they didn't have to be wizards though

I commonly only run my army with just a lvl 2 though. This is purely because I don't wanna skip entire phases of the game (boo-Mono Khorne that skips two!). For the same reason even my Vamp army always include either a Terrorgheist or a Banshee

It's pretty rare magic wins games in my environment, so not fielding a lvl 4 isn't necessarily a handicap. personally I just think the Lvl 2 and Lvl 4 upgrades should be more expensive....

Sanai
01-09-2014, 07:01
The new Undead Legions list lets VC & TK go without wizards- making a Barrow Kings style army really feasible.

If I wanted to go zero magic, it would look something like this;

Lords: "Barrow King" (Tomb King, insert UL magic items here)
Heroes: Wight Kings, Tomb Banshees, Necrotects, "Barrow Princes" (Tomb Prince)
Core: Skeleton Warriors, Skeleton Archers
Special: Grave Guard, Black Knights, Spirit Hosts, Hexwraiths, Warsphinx (Converted from Mortarch Abyssal)
Rare: Cairn Wraiths, Necrolith Colossus, Screaming Skull Catapult

With hatred & high WS being conferred on the already formidable VC Grave Guard, it should be pretty capable in combat. The main loss of course is the lack of IoN & Vanhels for healing and mobility, and the lack of the Mortis Engine & Terrorgheist.

ewar
01-09-2014, 11:59
high elves monster mashing isnt exactly any better, its saying sure you can not take magic as long as you take 4 monsters and a silver helm deathstar with BOTWD.

Now you're confusing me - you want to skip an entire phase of the game, and not use those points to boost your other phases by taking good combat units? You can't have it both ways, otherwise magic would have to be so weak that missing out on it had no consequences for your army selection.

I haven't tried it yet, but I've often thought a LM monster mash with 2 lvl 1 skink priests with scroll and cube would be fine for magic defence.

sandstorm
01-09-2014, 14:18
Double Yes.

Epidemius
Herald of Nurgle, BSB

23 Plaguebearers, Standard
22 Plaguebearers, Standard

6 Beasts of Nurgle
6 Beasts of Nurgle
6 Beasts of Nurgle
5 Furies
5 Furies

Skullcannon
Skullcannon

Sanai
01-09-2014, 14:23
Thats a lot of beasts of Nurgle! You'd really have to get your converting on (or use Plague Toads)

EvanM
01-09-2014, 15:35
Now you're confusing me - you want to skip an entire phase of the game, and not use those points to boost your other phases by taking good combat units? You can't have it both ways, otherwise magic would have to be so weak that missing out on it had no consequences for your army selection.

I haven't tried it yet, but I've often thought a LM monster mash with 2 lvl 1 skink priests with scroll and cube would be fine for magic defence.


I want essentially for it to be possible to take say an empire army and trade in the wizards and warrior priests for knights and artillery and have that actually work.

saying i should use a rediculous amount of monsters and an OP magic item is not what im looking for

bobhope99
01-09-2014, 16:09
I have many times played zero magic lizardmen armies in competitive environments and done quite well. You get the extra points saved from not taking a mage and you make your opponent waste any points they spent on magic defense. Just focus you dispel attempts on buffs and hexes, let the direct damage spells go and absorb the damage with your extra bodies.

EvanM
01-09-2014, 17:13
interesting.

because direct damage does linear damage, but hex/buffs multiply the enemy's power against you.

i wonder.....

would another strategy be to take a lvl2 just for the +2 and dispel scroll? thats not a massive investment.

i was thinking perhaps you could go lvl2 fire wizard (for fireball mostly) then a warrior priest so you can use 6 dice on bound spells. you get a +2 and you get 2 channels, it could be worse. its not without magic but its pretty light on magic. comparing that to a light council + war altar and it saves you 300+ points for other stuff.

Josfer
02-09-2014, 05:46
Magic light with only a lvl 2 +scroll is definitely an option for most games.

And one other thing to look at if you don't take magic: Every point not invested in magic can go right to rare+special (if your wizard wasn't your general).

EvanM
02-09-2014, 06:44
Yeah just a lvl 2 + DS would save you about 100 pts, sometimes more.

you have to make those 100 pts worth it to go from +4 to +2 to dispel

I think you could do empire with warrior priest bound spells and just a lvl2 fire with DS. but thats still not NO magic

ewar
02-09-2014, 10:16
Why have the extra level though? You should either run double level 2s or if just going for basic magic defence a level 1 with scroll. The additional +1 to dispel will rarely come into play and you're still left with only 2 spells, one of which you're 6 dicing each turn. The 35pts isn't worth it to me, you're better off committing to it or going as bare bones as possible.

EvanM
02-09-2014, 13:55
Why have the extra level though? You should either run double level 2s or if just going for basic magic defence a level 1 with scroll. The additional +1 to dispel will rarely come into play and you're still left with only 2 spells, one of which you're 6 dicing each turn. The 35pts isn't worth it to me, you're better off committing to it or going as bare bones as possible.

I see. Well the only reason In my mind would be to get the +2 for that one time you need it, to get 2 spells, hopefully you cast a few minor ones then mid game (after using the scroll) just move him away from people and suicide cast something with 6 dice.
Also i need 2 spells to help actually use the power dice because i'll still give some to my warrior priests. Cool thing about them is that you can both throw 1 dice at all thier spells or just 6 dice and nothing bad happens at all.
also i could have 2 wagons (luminark + Hurricanum) both with bound spells to spam.


as empire you can definitely have a magic phase without a lvl 4, although i do get that if you wanted you could go lvl 1 dispel scroll thats it.

with empire you probably cant with with just that because we rely on our own magic too much. some armies could (ones that do not need buffing spells and just use magic missiles or nukes)

sandstorm
02-09-2014, 14:05
I want essentially for it to be possible to take say an empire army and trade in the wizards and warrior priests for knights and artillery and have that actually work.

saying i should use a rediculous amount of monsters and an OP magic item is not what im looking for

Triple yes?

Karl Franz, Barded Warhorse, Ghal Maraz

Captain BSB on Warhorse, 1+ rerollable armour save

13 Inner Circle Knights, Full Command, Gleaming Pennant
5 Knights, Muso
5 Knights, Muso

5 Demis, Muso
4 Demis, Muso
Great Cannon
Great Cannon

Steam Tank
Steam Tank

EvanM
02-09-2014, 16:50
Triple yes?

Karl Franz, Barded Warhorse, Ghal Maraz

Captain BSB on Warhorse, 1+ rerollable armour save

13 Inner Circle Knights, Full Command, Gleaming Pennant
5 Knights, Muso
5 Knights, Muso

5 Demis, Muso
4 Demis, Muso
Great Cannon
Great Cannon

Steam Tank
Steam Tank

yeah the key here is the essentially 4 cannons. if i was you id still take lvl 1 lore of beasts with dispell scroll. simply to 6 dice wildform one time suicidally and get the scroll.

also id love to try this list but remember it still uses 2 units that are undercosted (demis), 1 unit that is questionable whether it should be core (ICK), no infantry at all (again its not fair because infantry is overcosted in empire)

and i love karl franz so i have nothing bad to say about that.

just a BTW question, do you like karl on deathclaw? i was thinking of buying him for the Nagash rules coming soon

sandstorm
02-09-2014, 16:57
You keep saying is it viable to run a no magic list, then when I present them to you all of a sudden there are loopholes regarding the strong choices I have made. Do you want to run a no magic list or don't you? Yes, I like Karl Franz on Deathclaw, especially in a double Steam Tank list that can screen him, making him immune to cannonballs. Just remember to put Deathclaw behind the Steam Tanks far enough away so that it doesn't negatively affect the random movement next turn. Bloodroar terror test chain panic can be hilarious if you can pull it off.

EvanM
02-09-2014, 17:01
Karl behind steam tanks... interesting.


OKAY FINE you have me there, i am shooting down every actual playable idea. im sorry for that. its just my leftover frustration at the near auto include of magic. it may as well be 1. you must have a general 2. you must have a lvl 4 with a dispel scroll.... you must have 25% core and so on. :p

but yeah i actually would think its pretty fair to have karl franz + deathclaw, 2 cannons 2 steam tanks and demis because you still have absolutely no magic whatsoever.

HelloKitty
02-09-2014, 17:09
Most of my lists are simply a single level 2. Against people you don't know you will get raised eyebrows because this defies conventional wisdom but I do ok without relying on a level 4 in every game. It is a little bit harder but I like that.

EvanM
02-09-2014, 17:43
Most of my lists are simply a single level 2. Against people you don't know you will get raised eyebrows because this defies conventional wisdom but I do ok without relying on a level 4 in every game. It is a little bit harder but I like that.

what armies do you play with just a lvl 2? i think itd work as long as you arent undead, or... well you get my point

tanka
03-09-2014, 21:24
I've gone very magic light in my last 10 games now, 5 of them being at a tournament I placed well in, it is MSU ogres so there aren't too many spells that are game breakers for the type of list and have a hellheart, found it hasn't actually been used too often to do damage, just used it to prevent wizards being able to move around as much, and for some of the shorter range lores and/or forcing the boosted version means less spells each turn.

I think it does also depend on play style and race, elf armies typically go big on magic due to the increased price of their units, one big spell can cripple more points than horde armies for example, the other big thing is the rise of the deathstar, if you have an uber killy unit then you are almost required to bring along some type of magical protection for it to save it from too much damage rendering it useless.

EvanM
03-09-2014, 22:35
so MSU can go magic light. interesting. i like that.

yeah i guess as orcs n gobs or as skaven you dont need magic, really, you could just spam units and try to win by not letting magic do enough damage to you