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0604854
01-09-2014, 14:34
Hello all,

With a massive range of units to choose from I think we need a tactica to discuss the combo's and optimum choices for different roles.

Deamon78
01-09-2014, 17:35
The first thing I want to try is a Tomb King in a unit of Grave Guards.

daftpunkevo
01-09-2014, 17:54
i'll try 6 strong morgast unit :]

Eddiethehott
02-09-2014, 07:29
I just want necromancers in my TK army. Lore of vampires gives a good reason to run prince+skelly tarpits.

Dongilles
02-09-2014, 09:30
Normally I dont play special characters but I will defenatly will use Nagash, I already rebased my old Nagash model on a 100 x 150 base (love the model for sentimental reasons). But his awsome summoning rules will pay for his high price tags. With the Casket of Souls and a Hieropotant, Nagash will own all the magic phases and summon all kind of things.

0604854
02-09-2014, 10:17
Normally I dont play special characters but I will defenatly will use Nagash, I already rebased my old Nagash model on a 100 x 150 base (love the model for sentimental reasons). But his awsome summoning rules will pay for his high price tags. With the Casket of Souls and a Hieropotant, Nagash will own all the magic phases and summon all kind of things.

But 1000 Points, I have tried him in a game with new rules vs Nurgle Daemons, he did OK but I think 1000 points could be spent more wisely, you can easily get a great combat character and wizard(s) to dominate magic phase and still have points left over for the same price.

SteelTitan
02-09-2014, 17:06
What do you think of these new monstrous infantry units? The rules are out now (incl some photos on Facebook) and I was wondering how they compare to Crypt Ghouls and Vargeists.

Ahnarras
02-09-2014, 19:17
As a TK player, i find it is a great improvement. More powerful than an ushabti, more resilient, more swift... More everything.

But i guess that, for VC player, this new unit is pretty meh. They already have one of the most undercosted Mons Inf (yes, i'm looking at you, crypt horror), and the Vargeists are really strong, even more speedy, and cheaper.

So, in a comp and hard army, i'm not sure i would take them.
In my fluff and nice TK army? Hell yeah, choosen of Ptra reincarnate in skellies by Nagash, that's good!

EvanM
02-09-2014, 21:46
i think the most interesting combos will come from one army's unique spells and abilities being applied to the other's units. focus on getting good synergies from that.

-Totenkopf-
03-09-2014, 00:55
I am excited to field my Ushabti as other more viable units now. I have customs wings magnetized to try them as the new morgheist or no wings as crypt horrors.. The new units looks amazing so I will be picking some up.

I am also excited to play plain old TK with the new marching rules. That alone is huge! From there I will add some VC units to taste.. maybe some ethereal, I love black knights, I want a terrorgheist. I'll try running vampires instead of lvl2 lich priests so I can add some combat punch.. I am looking forward to add some speed and punch to my list. Seeing as how my whole army is themed off of Arkhan the black, I think I can make it all work without veering too far off from stock TK

EvanM
03-09-2014, 05:00
ushabti are the sadest unit...

Jim
03-09-2014, 05:36
So what sort of army list would you run to support Nagash in a typical 2,400 game?

I'm think he needs a few Necromancer support casters to heal back wounds and then lots of fast stuff (TK fast cavalry, Fell Bats, Terrorgheists, Vargheists, etc) to go after war machines and zombies to chaff up enemy Death Stars until units have been Summoned?

Thoughts?

Jim

Ramius4
03-09-2014, 07:14
He could just get the spells to summon Necromancers without having to buy them. That being said, in a 2400 point game, you'll be hard pressed to fit much else in. 1600 points are already used up with Nagash and Core units.

I don't think I'd buy any other characters, and just be very mindful of his spell selection. Probably just some Ethereal units, Casket of Souls, and Screaming Skull Catapults.

pinktaco
03-09-2014, 08:39
Going to make myself a Lahmia lead TK army and use crypt horrors as mummies.

0604854
03-09-2014, 10:47
Mannfred Von Carstein looks a bit of beast for he's cost, I always prefer making my own characters rather than special characters though....

Spiney Norman
03-09-2014, 20:28
So what sort of army list would you run to support Nagash in a typical 2,400 game?

I'm think he needs a few Necromancer support casters to heal back wounds and then lots of fast stuff (TK fast cavalry, Fell Bats, Terrorgheists, Vargheists, etc) to go after war machines and zombies to chaff up enemy Death Stars until units have been Summoned?

Thoughts?

Jim

Personally I would focus on the things are most difficult to raise, since Nagash's primary job in any army will be raising more troops.

Looking at the lore of undeath that would be monsters, warmachines and chariots, so probably a core of TK chariots, maybe some archers for early-game shooting (since you have to fill up the core section with something), then any warsphinxes or Terrorgheists, a casket of souls for certain and a hierotitan if you want to be really dirty.

Pretty much anything else is relatively easy for Nagash to raise, you can get 50 skeletons or up to 100 zombies for only 14+ (grave call), the same spell can give you 20 tomb/graveguard with Halberds or great weapons respectively while casting a 10+ (Basic harbinger) will give you any character up to and including a Tomb king while 16+ (Dark riders) could raise a unit of up to 6 Necropolis knights or 8 Blood knights.

The only spell I would be slightly reticent to attempt is the boosted version of harbinger which is the only way to summon a monster, chariot or warmachine because risking a 1000pt wizard on a 24+ to cast spell is not my idea of fun.

For my 2k nagash army I am thinking of

Nagash

6 Skeleton chariots w/full command and banner of swiftness
20 skeleton archers with full command

Warsphinx with fiery roar
Casket of souls
Screaming skull catapult

0604854
04-09-2014, 08:04
Yes Nagash can be good but personally I think that much points can be spent more effectively.

Mullitron
04-09-2014, 20:31
I don't think Nagash is 100% effective for his points, but with the ability to quite easily raise cavalry units of 450 + points or infantry units of 300+ points he could make up for the missing units after a few magic phases. I can see blood knights becoming a good unit to summon with him, his ability to raise triple the normal points of cavalry allowing for a reasonable sized unit (with the flag of blood keep banner if there are points spare and not enough models). That One spell suddenly adds a fast moving heavy hitting unit to you army that rewards no victory points if it's killed. The terrorgheist looks fun to summon but I agree with the earlier post that it's to risky for the 24+ casting requirement, shame really there isn't a 600 point monster in the army list that he could summon :)

Djekar
04-09-2014, 20:47
So outside of using the Big Man and his Mortarchs, would you use Lore of Undeath at all? I feel like Vamps or Nehekara have a lot better synergy with the normal army choices. Undeath seems fun and fluffy, but I'm not sure that it holds up as a solitary lore - I am seeing it in more of a back-up role.

logan054
04-09-2014, 20:55
The first thing I want to try is a Tomb King in a unit of Grave Guards.

This, that or a Tomb Prince, WS5/6 GG, erm? yes please! They would actually be worth taking!

malisteen
05-09-2014, 00:16
I've already got a Vlad, and can't afford the mortarchs for a bit after buying the campaign books, so I'll be trying vlad in a GW grave guard hoard with a tomb prince and the banner of barrows. Ws5, KB great weapons with +1 to hit, and -1 to be hit with either *melee or shooting? Sounds fun to me. Plus terror (vlad has terror, right? I forget), with -1 to enemy leadership, and you've got half a chance of procking fear, leaving your grave guard hitting on 2's and being hit on 6's in return.

Probably not good, mind. Even with his shiny new mortarch rule (one of the best in the bunch, imo), Vlad still looks way over priced at fully 500 points, but still, since I've already got the model, might as well take it out for a test drive, yeah? throw in a couple tar pits, a bunker with lore of nehek support caster, vamp lore on vlad, some spirit hosts & bats, maybe a terrorgheist or something? I don't know. Will have to think about it.

Jim
05-09-2014, 06:45
This, that or a Tomb Prince, WS5/6 GG, erm? yes please! They would actually be worth taking!

Forgive my ignorance - but why is this particularly appealing? Can't TK do this already with Tomb Guard? I always thought Grave Guard and Tomb Guard were practically identical?

I know I'm missing something obvious!!!

Jim

Spiney Norman
05-09-2014, 07:03
Forgive my ignorance - but why is this particularly appealing? Can't TK do this already with Tomb Guard? I always thought Grave Guard and Tomb Guard were practically identical?

I know I'm missing something obvious!!!

Jim

Tomb guard cannot have the banner of the barrows and inexplicably pay more for their Halberds than GG do for their great weapons.
When the VC book was written GG were basically designed to slightly 1up TG (like almost everything else in the VC book), the banner of the barrows is just icing.

logan054
05-09-2014, 09:43
As Spider and malisteen said. Imagine TG with great weapons, better armour and a banner that gives them +1 to hit. On top of that combine you TG++ unit with the lore of vampires and IoN, it's a pretty scary unit. I would also be tempted to take TK skeletons so I don't have to pay the LA tax.

malisteen
05-09-2014, 16:05
Here's a question: Can a vampire or vampire lord on a coven throne join a unit of Tomb Kings chariots?

JohnnyH5
05-09-2014, 22:29
Here's a question: Can a vampire or vampire lord on a coven throne join a unit of Tomb Kings chariots?

I don't play Vampire Counts (Wood Elves) but if the coven throne is a chariot then I believe it can join a unit of Tomb Kings chariots.

malisteen
06-09-2014, 01:36
It is indeed a chariot.

Djekar
06-09-2014, 02:50
Interesting question. The rule "And the Tomb Kings Rode to War..." specifies that characters in a Tomb King army can join units of chariots. Since I can't find anything that would override this in the Undead Legions list, I would say no. Sad times :(

Skywave
06-09-2014, 03:58
A character on Chariot can't join a unit (BRB p.105). As noted by Djekar, the rule "And the Tomb Kings Rod to War" is from the Skeletons Chariots units, allowing a TK or TP on chariot join them. But the normal rules still apply otherwise, and the Coven Throne can't join them.

Furthermore, the "And the Tomb Kings Rod to War" rule state: "Characters in a Tomb Kings army that have a chariot can join a unit of Skeleton Chariots.". The Undead Legion is not a Tomb Kings army, so strictly rule as written, you can't have a TK in Chariots either :eek:

-Totenkopf-
06-09-2014, 04:21
I still may run it that way in my local group.. The Vamp lord on coven throne and properly kit out is around 650 points... So I don't know how often you would see it..

malisteen
06-09-2014, 13:45
Interesting question. The rule "And the Tomb Kings Rode to War..." specifies that characters in a Tomb King army can join units of chariots. Since I can't find anything that would override this in the Undead Legions list, I would say no. Sad times :(

Note that this interpretation would also prevent Tomb Kings and Tomb Princes on chariots from joining units of skeleton chariots in Undead Legions armies. An interpretation of a rule that renders its obvious primary intent non-functional cannot, imo, be the correct default interpretation.


A character on Chariot can't join a unit (BRB p.105). As noted by Djekar, the rule "And the Tomb Kings Rod to War" is from the Skeletons Chariots units, allowing a TK or TP on chariot join them. But the normal rules still apply otherwise, and the Coven Throne can't join them.

That's not what the rule says. It says 'characters with chariots', not 'tomb kings and tomb princes with chariots'. There is no way to interpret the rule to prevent coven thrones from doing so that would not also prevent tomb kings and tomb princes on regular chariots from joining the same unit.


Furthermore, the "And the Tomb Kings Rod to War" rule state: "Characters in a Tomb Kings army that have a chariot can join a unit of Skeleton Chariots." The Undead Legion is not a Tomb Kings army, so strictly rule as written, you can't have a TK in Chariots either :eek:
That is exactly the problem with this interpretation.

From what I can tell, the spirit of the Undead Legion rules are to allow maximum possible overlap. 'My Will Be Done' and Necrotecht hatred is allowed to benefit vamp counts units. Vamp count spells are allowed to benefit nehekharan units and vice versa. Vamp casters can benefit from caskets and titans. In every other case, characters from one are allowed to join units of the other. Crazy combos of overlapping benefits isn't an unintended consequence of Undead Legion armies combining both factions, if anything it seems to be the primary point.

I am disinclined go use this combo myself, because I think the coven throne is way too big for a regular chariot base, and would put mine on a large monster base, making it very awkward to join any other unit, even if allowed. But I would absolutely allow my opponents to do so, barring some faq or errata clearly saying otherwise.

Again, interpreting rules in such a way that renders their clear intended use non-functional just to try and prevent people from playing a combo that seems strong in a list that is nothing but strong combos to me feels like the wrong default position to take. Note that a player doing this is probably not also fielding a grave guard death star of doom double buffed to the nine hells, or a hellmagic murderbuffsummon army of crazy powerful casters simultaneously buffed by engines, titans, and caskets. You're not avoiding abusive combos by refusing to play against it, you're just telling your opponents to play some more boring and less dynamic abusive combos instead.

I mean, sure, maybe in tournaments it might not be a good idea to allow it, but in tournaments it's probably not a good idea to allow Undead Legion lists to begin with.

RTB01
06-09-2014, 14:18
Anyone tries running arkhan? How have you got on?

Skywave
06-09-2014, 14:58
That's not what the rule says. It says 'characters with chariots', not 'tomb kings and tomb princes with chariots'. There is no way to interpret the rule to prevent coven thrones from doing so that would not also prevent tomb kings and tomb princes on regular chariots from joining the same unit.

Yeah I wrote it differently, but it's "characters from a Tomb Kings army", wich incidentally is a TK or a TP ;) And yes, there's a way to interpret the rules to prevent the Throne to join a unit. It's not a characters from the Tomb Kings army.




From what I can tell, the spirit of the Undead Legion rules are to allow maximum possible overlap. While I agree with you, the rules on this are clear without ambiguity, so interpretation and guts feel of what they wanted to do can't help anyone.


'My Will Be Done' and Necrotecht hatred is allowed to benefit vamp counts units. Vamp count spells are allowed to benefit nehekharan units and vice versa. Vamp casters can benefit from caskets and titans.
All of those had restriction that are now lifted from the Undead Legion rules, wich was mostly the Undead/Nehekharan Undead thing.

Other that that, they say you have to use the rules from the relevant book. The Chariots rules are pretty clear that it's only characters from a Tomb Kings Army that are allowed to join. Oversight of the design team? Maybe. But that doesn't change the rules right now. Personally I'd like to be able to have at least TK characters joint the Chariots as usual, but if I play a Undead Legion list, I'm not playing a Tomb Kings list, so I won't (not that I loose much from that anyway).

In these kind of "debate", I prefer to cheat myself with the rules than cheat my opponent. If they FAQs it to allow TK/characters to join Chariots, great for me, I gained more options, it they FAQs it so they still can't? Then I'm still fine and don't feel like I was taking advantage of some vague ruling.

malisteen
06-09-2014, 15:20
It is not 'characters from the Tomb Kings Army Book', but 'characters in a Tomb Kings army'. If an Undead Legions army is a Tomb Kings army, then Coven Thrones in an Undead Legions army can join skeleton chariots. If it is not, then Tomb Kings and Princes in an undead legions army may not.

Skywave
06-09-2014, 15:41
It is not 'characters from the Tomb Kings Army Book', but 'characters in a Tomb Kings army'.
And that's what I said :)

You can play a Tomb Kings army, a Vampire Counts army, or an Undead Legion army. All three are different with their own rules. The Chariots rule, so far, refer to a Tomb kings army only.

forseer of fates
06-09-2014, 17:14
For being nagashes first lieutenant, arkhans rules are meh, even nefetra are so so, Manfred's are great.

dragonelf
06-09-2014, 19:31
On the chariot front the vampire on the coven throne can't join the chariot unit. The only types of chariots that can form into units are those in the tomb kings book. A tomb king or tom prince rides the same chariot that forms into units as decribed in the core troop choice.

The coven throne is unit type chariot so follows all the generic rules for chariots and that includes that they can't be formed into units.

malisteen
06-09-2014, 21:43
On the chariot front the vampire on the coven throne can't join the chariot unit. The only types of chariots that can form into units are those in the tomb kings book. A tomb king or tom prince rides the same chariot that forms into units as decribed in the core troop choice.

The unit only allows characters with chariots to join them in 'a tomb kings army'. If you do not judge an Undead Legions army to be such, then tomb kings and princes on chariots cannot join the unit in an Undead Legions army, because there is no other rule allowing them to do so. If you do deem them to be such, then coven thrones can join as well, because the rule does not specify 'characters on skeleton chariots' or 'characters on a light chariot' or 'tomb kings characters with a chariot', only 'characters with a chariot', and vampires are characters and the coven throne is a chariot.

As written, the rule either works for coven thrones, or it doesn't work for Undead Legions at all.

-Totenkopf-
07-09-2014, 05:03
Arkhan gives you a fats mobile general capable of giving a fast, mobile force march moves all over the board.. Doubling lore of undeath is huge and because of his speed, those units will be popping up in very inconvenient places for you opponent. He can pick on most units to regain wounds, in addition to healing from lore of vampires. He is a lot of points but he can certainly be a game changer. Don't get me wrong though, I do wish he was given a ward save. At least he can be given a decent regen..

dragonelf
07-09-2014, 09:20
The unit only allows characters with chariots to join them in 'a tomb kings army'. If you do not judge an Undead Legions army to be such, then tomb kings and princes on chariots cannot join the unit in an Undead Legions army, because there is no other rule allowing them to do so. If you do deem them to be such, then coven thrones can join as well, because the rule does not specify 'characters on skeleton chariots' or 'characters on a light chariot' or 'tomb kings characters with a chariot', only 'characters with a chariot', and vampires are characters and the coven throne is a chariot.

As written, the rule either works for coven thrones, or it doesn't work for Undead Legions at all.


Sorry but this is utter rubbish. The Undead Legion is an army made up with units from the Tomb Kings army and VC army. The rules are very straightforward, if your characters are tomb kings characters in a chariot then they can join chariot units, if they are not from the Tomb Kings army then they can't.

You can't nitpick the wording in the original tomb kings army book written years ago because they writers didn't have the ability to predict at some point in the future that a new unified Undead Legion army would be conceived.

You might also use your common sense as well. Vampires are and never have been tomb kings characters so there is no way they would ever be able to join a chariot unit whereas it is plain idiotic to think that when a tomb king army joins a VC army to make a unified army, the tomb kings suddenly lose the ability to join chariot units.

Play the game.

malisteen
07-09-2014, 12:36
I played old undead, before there was a such thing as tomb kings and vamp counts as separate armies, so don't try and lecture me here. I'm not the one trying to go against the entire spirit of Undead Legions by keeping characters from one from joining units of the other, or preventing special rules from one (in this case the skeleton chariot rule allowing 'characters with chariots', which a vamp on a coven throne unquestionably is from joining said unit) from applying to units of the other.

My entire point is that arguing that the special rule of skeleton chariots doesn't apply to coven thrones because they aren't 'characters in a tomb kings army' is stupid and wrong because it breaks the rule from working at all, because no characters in an Undead Legion army are characters "in a tomb kings army". The correct reading should be the same as it is everywhere else in undead legions - that special rules do overlap, and that Coven Thrones can benefit from the skeleton chariot special rules every bit as much as grave guard can benefit from a tomb king's "my will be done".

dragonelf
07-09-2014, 14:29
Sorry, but I will lecture you if you are behaving like the worst kind of rules lawyer. I have been playing this game a very long time and I remember very clearly the broken army list that was the unified undead army book.

You cannot use the wording of the tomb king army book and apply it verbatim to the Undead Legion list when it was clearly written without the knowledge of a future joint list.

You are also wrong to say that no characters from the Undead legion list are tomb kings characters. There's a whole list of units in the nagash book with in brackets which army list they originate from. That tells you which list they come from. Therefore you can see perfectly clearly which characters are tomb king characters and which are vampire counts ones. You can also see clearly that the chariot that tomb king characters ride is exactly the same points and stats as the chariots in the tomb king book that can form into units.

As and experienced player you know perfectly well that the intention, spirit and reading of the rules is such that tomb king characters in the Undead Legion list can ride chariots and that they can form units with chariots also from the tomb king list.

Special rules do not overlap in the Undead Legion, the only ones that overlap are the ones stated in the nagash book. It is nothing like a tomb king character leading grave guard and as a seasoned player you should know better. Those are two separate units and one is a character who has never been prohibited from joining infantry units. A coven throne like all chariots follows the generic rules for chariots and has never been able to form units like all other chariots.

To try and do this is blatant rules exploitation or to stop this happening and claim that tomb kings/princes cant join chariots is similar rules lawyering, nit-picking, or gamesmanship based on word for word reading of one sentence written years before the End of Times was even conceived.

Please play the game, its only the game, you honestly cant want to win that badly. If you do, get a life.

forseer of fates
07-09-2014, 14:48
Pish posh, grave guard with tomb princes and necrotects ahoy! and ofc coven thrones can join chariot units, who cares if they do thou, the chariots arnt brilliant to start with and coven thrones with a vampire lord is not cheap and a very easy artillery kill. Tomb kings as their own army don't exist anymore lore wise.

dragonelf
07-09-2014, 15:13
to malisteen:

the VC book page regarding VC magic items, it says, I quote:
"On these pages are magic items available to Vampire Counts armies."

An identical passage appears in the Tomb Kings page on magic items.

Do you believe that no vampires counts characters can take their own magic items in an Undead Legion list? And similarly for the tomb kings characters?

Hmmm....?

zoltan
07-09-2014, 16:55
In the undead legions it states that vampire counts characters in the army have access to vampire counts items, and vice versa for tomb king characters, so that isnt in question.

Regarding chariots and characters i agree with mailsteen. Rules as written NO character in an undead legions list riding a chariot can join a unit of chariots, as the rule specifies characters i n a tomb kings army, NOT characters FROM the tomb kings book.

Although i seriously doubt that was the intention. I suspect the intention is for tomb king characters on chariots in an undead legions list to be able to join chariot units. It is just an example of gamesworkshops inability to write new rules clearly, and will need an faq.

However, its equally possible the intention is to synergise the rules as in other examples, and allow characters in chariots in an undead legions list to join units of chariots.

The actual intention is open to debate, as the rules in the existing army books werent written with the undead legions in mind, and the undead legions list isnt clear.

What ISNT open to debate is rules as written, undead legion rules trump brb, but undead legion rules dont mention chariots, so brb rule comes in to play. The tomb kings army book rules arent relevant as they arent used. Its just that the new 'army book' of undead legions references the book.

dragonelf
07-09-2014, 17:52
In the undead legions it states that vampire counts characters in the army have access to vampire counts items, and vice versa for tomb king characters, so that isnt in question.

Regarding chariots and characters i agree with mailsteen. Rules as written NO character in an undead legions list riding a chariot can join a unit of chariots, as the rule specifies characters i n a tomb kings army, NOT characters FROM the tomb kings book.

Although i seriously doubt that was the intention. I suspect the intention is for tomb king characters on chariots in an undead legions list to be able to join chariot units. It is just an example of gamesworkshops inability to write new rules clearly, and will need an faq.

However, its equally possible the intention is to synergise the rules as in other examples, and allow characters in chariots in an undead legions list to join units of chariots.

The actual intention is open to debate, as the rules in the existing army books werent written with the undead legions in mind, and the undead legions list isnt clear.

What ISNT open to debate is rules as written, undead legion rules trump brb, but undead legion rules dont mention chariots, so brb rule comes in to play. The tomb kings army book rules arent relevant as they arent used. Its just that the new 'army book' of undead legions references the book.

I do see this point, but you can't blame GW for not being clear and shouldn't we take into account that the tomb kings book was written years before the Undead Legion was conceived. Of course the tomb kings book is going to have wording about the tomb kings army, because there was no other undead army with units of chariots. How could it have been worded otherwise that didn't exclude Undying Legions. You also have to apply a degree of common sense. Why would they inflict this restriction on an army list that is supposed to be an amalgamation of two armies when no other such restrictions apply to any other characters.

zoltan
07-09-2014, 18:11
I agree that tomb kings characters on chariots in an undead legions book should be allowed to join chariot units, and that is almost certainly intent, but not if going by RAW. But as intent is always open to interpretation, and there is precedence for a melding of rules from the two books, then it may also be intended that characters on chariots in the vc book now be allowed to join chariot units.

It comes down to RAW vs RAI, RAW none can, RAI some certainly can some may be able to. It needs to be clear in the undead legions list, which as usual it isnt and we need an faq to make it so.

What we dont have are clear RAW that allow tomb king characters on chariots in an undead legions list to join chariot units and ALSO not allow vampire counts characters on chariots in an undead legions list joining chariot units.

Personally i dont much care as i have no intention of using corpse carts or coven thrones in an undead legions list, and mortis engines arent ridden by characters so cant join chariot units in any case.

Opial
07-09-2014, 18:44
General question: since Manfred von carsten on foot/hellsteed has loremaster death/vampire... and ANY wizard can take undeath... would a hellsteed mounted forego his loremaster abilities and just choose to generate undeath spells, would he get loremaster death/vamp in addition to his undeath generated spells... or am I supposed to generate his spells like he does in the new profile?

dragonelf
07-09-2014, 18:47
Yep agreed on all that. Being to the letter RAW I would probably agree. The only other way to read it is that a TK in an UL list is still a TK army character because TK army is one part of the UL list.

As a TK player I don't often put characters in units of chariots anyway and won't be using much in the vamp list. Maybe a necro to access the lore of the vampires but not riding anything. So I don't think this will really affect me.

JWH
07-09-2014, 19:09
For my money, I think Krell is great! He's only a bit more expensive than his old version, and for that he basically swaps Nagash for Kemmler for his HKB rule, +1 attack (which is a big deal, courtesy of his axe), +1 leadership and a great way to regain wounds without being a caster himself. Seems great to me for his points cost.

Mithrilherz
08-09-2014, 11:38
Personally I would focus on the things are most difficult to raise, since Nagash's primary job in any army will be raising more troops.

Looking at the lore of undeath that would be monsters, warmachines and chariots, so probably a core of TK chariots, maybe some archers for early-game shooting (since you have to fill up the core section with something), then any warsphinxes or Terrorgheists, a casket of souls for certain and a hierotitan if you want to be really dirty.

Pretty much anything else is relatively easy for Nagash to raise, you can get 50 skeletons or up to 100 zombies for only 14+ (grave call), the same spell can give you 20 tomb/graveguard with Halberds or great weapons respectively while casting a 10+ (Basic harbinger) will give you any character up to and including a Tomb king while 16+ (Dark riders) could raise a unit of up to 6 Necropolis knights or 8 Blood knights.

The only spell I would be slightly reticent to attempt is the boosted version of harbinger which is the only way to summon a monster, chariot or warmachine because risking a 1000pt wizard on a 24+ to cast spell is not my idea of fun.

For my 2k nagash army I am thinking of

Nagash

6 Skeleton chariots w/full command and banner of swiftness
20 skeleton archers with full command

Warsphinx with fiery roar
Casket of souls
Screaming skull catapult

I was thinking in a very similar way.

For a game in 2 weeks with my mates, I will use my old Nagash (which I like actually) and put it onto a 100 x 150 mm base with iron foil (all my modelsare magnetized).
I will probably loose, but this game will be really fun I reckon.

Nagashs main purpose is raising troops, exactly as Spiney Norman had described. Shooting for the early game, some units to disable war machines, magic support, chaff and anti chaff in core, 1 safe combar unit which does not need to be raised.

Hence 2500 List would look like this

Nagash

Nekrotrekt
Tomb Prince

Core
Archers (Shooting)
Chariots (Flank Charges, Anti Chaff)
Dire Wolfs (Chaff)

Special
Tomb Guard, here goes the Tomb Prince and Nekrotekt (Main Combat Unit)
2 Tomb Scorpions (Anti-Warmachine)

Rare
Casket of Souls (Magic Support)
Hierotian (Magic Support, Combar Support if needed)
Skull Catapult (Shooting, Anti War Machine)

Then raise units like hell, whatever spells I get through, to really wreck havoc:
Nekropolis Knights
Sphinxes
Blood Knights
Varghulf
Maybe even a blender Vampire

If nothing else is possible, then even zombies, skeletons, ushabti, whatever.

It will be a chaotic game, but definitely an interesting one.

Any thoughts on this would be very much appreciated.

0604854
08-09-2014, 11:57
I was thinking in a very similar way.

For a game in 2 weeks with my mates, I will use my old Nagash (which I like actually) and put it onto a 100 x 150 mm base with iron foil (all my modelsare magnetized).
I will probably loose, but this game will be really fun I reckon.

Nagashs main purpose is raising troops, exactly as Spiney Norman had described. Shooting for the early game, some units to disable war machines, magic support, chaff and anti chaff in core, 1 safe combar unit which does not need to be raised.

Hence 2500 List would look like this

Nagash

Nekrotrekt
Tomb Prince

Core
Archers (Shooting)
Chariots (Flank Charges, Anti Chaff)
Dire Wolfs (Chaff)

Special
Tomb Guard, here goes the Tomb Prince and Nekrotekt (Main Combat Unit)
2 Tomb Scorpions (Anti-Warmachine)

Rare
Casket of Souls (Magic Support)
Hierotian (Magic Support, Combar Support if needed)
Skull Catapult (Shooting, Anti War Machine)

Then raise units like hell, whatever spells I get through, to really wreck havoc:
Nekropolis Knights
Sphinxes
Blood Knights
Varghulf
Maybe even a blender Vampire

If nothing else is possible, then even zombies, skeletons, ushabti, whatever.

It will be a chaotic game, but definitely an interesting one.

Any thoughts on this would be very much appreciated.


Drop the tomb guard as grave guard are superior, Tomb Scorpions as well are too expensive for what they do, go for more dire wolves or skeleton horse archers.

0604854
08-09-2014, 12:04
I was thinking in a very similar way.

For a game in 2 weeks with my mates, I will use my old Nagash (which I like actually) and put it onto a 100 x 150 mm base with iron foil (all my modelsare magnetized).
I will probably loose, but this game will be really fun I reckon.

Nagashs main purpose is raising troops, exactly as Spiney Norman had described. Shooting for the early game, some units to disable war machines, magic support, chaff and anti chaff in core, 1 safe combar unit which does not need to be raised.

Hence 2500 List would look like this

Nagash

Nekrotrekt
Tomb Prince

Core
Archers (Shooting)
Chariots (Flank Charges, Anti Chaff)
Dire Wolfs (Chaff)

Special
Tomb Guard, here goes the Tomb Prince and Nekrotekt (Main Combat Unit)
2 Tomb Scorpions (Anti-Warmachine)

Rare
Casket of Souls (Magic Support)
Hierotian (Magic Support, Combar Support if needed)
Skull Catapult (Shooting, Anti War Machine)

Then raise units like hell, whatever spells I get through, to really wreck havoc:
Nekropolis Knights
Sphinxes
Blood Knights
Varghulf
Maybe even a blender Vampire

If nothing else is possible, then even zombies, skeletons, ushabti, whatever.

It will be a chaotic game, but definitely an interesting one.

Any thoughts on this would be very much appreciated.


Drop the tomb guard as grave guard are superior, Tomb Scorpions as well are too expensive for what they do, go for more dire wolves or skeleton horse archers.

ewar
08-09-2014, 12:37
Drop the tomb guard as grave guard are superior, Tomb Scorpions as well are too expensive for what they do, go for more dire wolves or skeleton horse archers.

Depends what you want out of them - I prefer Tomb Guard as they benefit from ASF where GG don't and S5 AP is just as effective. Also I get a lot of utility out of Tomb Scorpions, people didn't like them at first because they had to entomb, but since that got errata'd they are a great anti chaff unit. 14" march near the general is just icing on the cake now.

So base the choice on what you want to get out of the unit - horse archers/dire wolves play a very different role to Scorpions.

Mithrilherz
08-09-2014, 16:26
Thanks for your input so far. I will consider these choices thoroughly.
Once can also easily see that I come from the TK side, not the VC side. ;-)

RTB01
08-09-2014, 21:10
How do tomb guard have asf?

ewar
08-09-2014, 21:30
Spells. They don't necessarily need Birona's but Speed of Light has almost the same effect (takes away ASF re-rolls and makes the strike first against most non-Elven opponents).

I find with no armour they need to be hitting first and I run a Titan backed light council so can generally get the spells through I need.

Lord Zarkov
08-09-2014, 22:20
Corpse Cart as well in a UL Army


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

forseer of fates
09-09-2014, 02:53
Corpse cart, halberds for the tomb guard and necromancers could work, but i3 isn't great, grave guard with banner of the banners and a tomb prince is miles better, chuck a bsb with ap banner in there and even steam tanks will fear them.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
09-09-2014, 23:26
Corpse cart, halberds for the tomb guard and necromancers could work, but i3 isn't great, grave guard with banner of the banners and a tomb prince is miles better, chuck a bsb with ap banner in there and even steam tanks will fear them.

I3 isn't great...but it means striking before Ogres, saurus (and temple guard), skullcrushers mounts, chimeras, scar vets, most unkillable chaos heroes (unless they go with halberd), ogres, and other units with great weapons. That's a fairly decent list of enemy units.

Not to mention that ASF means that elves don't get rerolls against them, and striking before anything that goes at I. Pretty big deal.

Spiney Norman
10-09-2014, 00:11
I agree that tomb kings characters on chariots in an undead legions book should be allowed to join chariot units, and that is almost certainly intent, but not if going by RAW. But as intent is always open to interpretation, and there is precedence for a melding of rules from the two books, then it may also be intended that characters on chariots in the vc book now be allowed to join chariot units.

It comes down to RAW vs RAI, RAW none can, RAI some certainly can some may be able to. It needs to be clear in the undead legions list, which as usual it isnt and we need an faq to make it so.

What we dont have are clear RAW that allow tomb king characters on chariots in an undead legions list to join chariot units and ALSO not allow vampire counts characters on chariots in an undead legions list joining chariot units.

Personally i dont much care as i have no intention of using corpse carts or coven thrones in an undead legions list, and mortis engines arent ridden by characters so cant join chariot units in any case.

Basically you can't have you're cake and eat it, if you want the RAW interpretation its pretty clear that in a Legions of undeath army no chariot-mounted characters can join units of skeleton chariots because they are not "characters in a tomb king army".

Now clearly that interpretation is pretty ridiculous, of course tomb kings, princes and heralds on chariots should still be able to join their chariot units, the real question is whether vampires mounted on chariots can or not. Given how they have made such a concerted attempt to eradicate the difference between undead and Nehekharan undead to create a combined army I think there's a really good chance that coven thrones might be FAQ'd to join skeleton chariot units (and therein becoming rather less of a death-sentence for the vampire riding it), but it absolutely would require an faq entry or rather a lot of goodwill on the part of your opponent.


General question: since Manfred von carsten on foot/hellsteed has loremaster death/vampire... and ANY wizard can take undeath... would a hellsteed mounted forego his loremaster abilities and just choose to generate undeath spells, would he get loremaster death/vamp in addition to his undeath generated spells... or am I supposed to generate his spells like he does in the new profile?

Unless specifically stated a wizard can only take spells from one lore, just like you cannot take a Slann with the discipline of loremaster (high magic) and choose a battle magic lore as well. If (non-Mortarch) Mannfred chooses the lore of undeath, his loremaster vampires/death rules do nothing.

logan054
11-09-2014, 21:50
Spells. They don't necessarily need Birona's but Speed of Light has almost the same effect (takes away ASF re-rolls and makes the strike first against most non-Elven opponents).

I find with no armour they need to be hitting first and I run a Titan backed light council so can generally get the spells through I need.

I think I would still rather have a unit of GG with the banner of the barrows lead by a tomb prince or tomb king, hitting and wounding most things on a 2+ is pretty impressive.

Greyshadow
11-09-2014, 22:29
To weigh in to the good discussion about chariots, I think there is a good argument to allow Tomb King characters on chariots to joint Tomb King chariot units. You could argue that although the plain language is clear there is an issue of consistency between the Tomb Kings book and the Undead Legion book here. If you cut out the relevant army list entries from the two old undead books and printed them as a full Undead Legion book you would note that the rule being discussed is orphaned and inconsistent with the rest of the book. This argument is enough for Rules as Intended to be looked at to resolve the issue.

I'd be inclined to allow Tomb King characters on chariots to join Skeleton Chariots units when part of an Undead Legions army.

ewar
12-09-2014, 00:04
I think I would still rather have a unit of GG with the banner of the barrows lead by a tomb prince or tomb king, hitting and wounding most things on a 2+ is pretty impressive.

Maybe its because in my gaming group I have Dark Elves, High Elves and Wood Elves as frequent opponents that it makes a big difference. If you let a big block of Executioners swing first they can take out 20 models before you've rolled any dice and that can end the combat before it's even begun.

I agree there's not much in it. Plus, as a vanilla tomb king player I have the TK chip on my shoulder that VC got everything we did, but a little better and a little cheaper, so will continue to cut my nose off and use Tomb Guard :)

Hashulaman
12-09-2014, 21:45
I think I would still rather have a unit of GG with the banner of the barrows lead by a tomb prince or tomb king, hitting and wounding most things on a 2+ is pretty impressive.

I dont know much about Tomb kings, but why dont you give the Tomb king/Prince fencer's blades? WS10 GG.

Kahless
13-09-2014, 00:28
GW Errata:


Q: If a Tomb King has the Fencers Blades, does the My Will Be
Done special rule mean that he makes his unit Weapon Skill 10?
(p30).
A: No; use the Tomb King’s unmodified Weapon Skill of 6,
not his modified value of 10.


Kahless

ChrisRabbit
13-09-2014, 07:44
Quick question, I'm a VC player with a fairly ordinary 'bus' list. I'm tempted my the manfred on dread adysal thingy and making it a legion army. Is he worth fielding? Other than looking really pretty, is he for my cabinet or my gaming army? Everyone appears to have sold out of the book so I've not had a look.

Spiney Norman
13-09-2014, 11:19
Quick question, I'm a VC player with a fairly ordinary 'bus' list. I'm tempted my the manfred on dread adysal thingy and making it a legion army. Is he worth fielding? Other than looking really pretty, is he for my cabinet or my gaming army? Everyone appears to have sold out of the book so I've not had a look.

He's definitely the best of the three Mortarchs on abyssals, you wouldn't want to be using the lore of undeath with him though, if you take him with LotV I think he could be pretty good, the attack/PD conversion rule is pretty darn amazing.

Arkhan is pretty good too (he's essentially a mini-Nagash, and the only other character in the game that can really make decent use of the lore of undeath), I think Neferata is probably the weakest of the three (and consequently also the nicest model of the three).

Just be aware that he is 650pts, so unless your opponents are happy to let you use the end times changes to the Lord allowance, you will need to be playing games of at least 2600pts

ChrisRabbit
13-09-2014, 14:48
Are the abyssals good mounts, I would be tempted to just go legion and stick a blender on a dragon but not have him as the general instead. Keep my usual lord as general.

Must get a look at the book! Does feel like cheating though?!?!

RTB01
13-09-2014, 16:09
The abyssal profile is combined with the rider so you kill all of it, or none of it now.

Bigman
14-09-2014, 13:55
Having got the book, I think all the talk of GW "not writing clear rules" is a joke.

Not that they write clear ones, which they don't.

But it's clear to anyone with some sense that:-

TK characters continue to join chariots
VC can't as they never have been able too.

RAW - rules lawyering...just apply what you think makes the most sense, not which gives the most edge! That was GW's intention, indeed it is clear from any time you speak to a head type guy that they like sensible interpretations, not gamey ones.

Lordcypress
15-09-2014, 03:15
Actually I was kind of wondering if a Blender Vampire Lord could ride a War Sphinx? Probably pushing the limits though. The rules don't say you can or can't. One thing is for sure though. Page 21 of Nagash's book explains very clearly the rules for choosing an army have indeed changed. 50% Lord, 50% Hero, min. 25% Core, 50% Special and 25% Rare is the new rules for Warhammer Fantasy.

Page 21 Book of Nagash
CHOOSING AN ARMY

"This section updates the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer. Just as the Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard, all armies use these rules for choosing an army."

Of course amongst friends and tournaments these rules don't have to be used. But they are the new rules for warhammer.

Wesser
15-09-2014, 09:24
Actually I was kind of wondering if a Blender Vampire Lord could ride a War Sphinx? Probably pushing the limits though. The rules don't say you can or can't. One thing is for sure though. Page 21 of Nagash's book explains very clearly the rules for choosing an army have indeed changed. 50% Lord, 50% Hero, min. 25% Core, 50% Special and 25% Rare is the new rules for Warhammer Fantasy.

Page 21 Book of Nagash
CHOOSING AN ARMY

"This section updates the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer. Just as the Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard, all armies use these rules for choosing an army."

Of course amongst friends and tournaments these rules don't have to be used. But they are the new rules for warhammer.

Nah, cuz Vampires don't have a sphinx mount option... I'd always choose the dragon anyway... because..itsa Dragon!


What I lacked in the VC book was

1. Crumble to be removed (because it's just dumb...rly rly dumb)
2. Skeleton Shooting troops (because I don't like losing a whole phase of the game.... screams just don't feel like it)
3. Hero vampires being able to ride Abyssal Terrors (so that I'd actually dare field one)
4. Actual Chariots


3 out of 4 seems pretty good.... My next project is bending spears on the skeleton kit to make them into bows :)

Dunno what I'm to do about them chariots to make them fit though...

logan054
17-09-2014, 21:02
I agree there's not much in it. Plus, as a vanilla tomb king player I have the TK chip on my shoulder that VC got everything we did, but a little better and a little cheaper, so will continue to cut my nose off and use Tomb Guard :)

lol! apart for shooting :p

I do Agree that your personnel meta will have an effect on which you choose, that all player stubbornness :p ;)

Spiney Norman
18-09-2014, 07:42
lol! apart for shooting :p

I do Agree that your personnel meta will have an effect on which you choose, that all player stubbornness :p ;)

You do realise that terrorgheist screams are vastly more powerful and points efficient than any shooting found in the TK book? TK archers themselves are massively overrated unless you combine them with Khalida.

Althwen
18-09-2014, 11:56
You do realise that terrorgheist screams are vastly more powerful and points efficient than any shooting found in the TK book? TK archers themselves are massively overrated unless you combine them with Khalida.
I keep making this exact same case to my friend who plays VC.
Yesterday I actually found out when I fielded spirit hosts in my TK army (I need my cheap chaff) that on top of everything else those terrorgheist shrieks are magical as well!
Cant catch a break with those things.

Wesser
18-09-2014, 12:39
You do realise that terrorgheist screams are vastly more powerful and points efficient than any shooting found in the TK book? TK archers themselves are massively overrated unless you combine them with Khalida.

Totally disagree

One of the most major pains for VC is skirmishers and fast Cavalry, most particularly the elven variety that Dire Wolves and Fell Bats don't stand a chance against.

TK Archers are the answer against the Waywatchers, Warlocks, Shades and other damnable stuff that the current VC list struggle to catch.

The Terrorgheist is neat, but it's primarily a monster/chariot hunter and the VC book offers other options for dealing with such. Right now Gaze of Nagash is pretty overburdened trying to catch enemy fast stuff...

Ravening Wh0re
18-09-2014, 15:21
Hexwraiths aren't too shabby against enemy fast cav. They can move through in the movement phase, do it again in the magic phase and the enemy cant touch them in combat

ROCKY
18-09-2014, 15:36
manfred no longer has lore master in the undead legion (or nagash book if u call it that). everything about him is changed. so if your using the undead legion rules you cannot have the loremaster manfred.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
18-09-2014, 16:08
Hexwraiths aren't too shabby against enemy fast cav. They can move through in the movement phase, do it again in the magic phase and the enemy cant touch them in combat
Chariots are godawful garbage in competitive Warhammer. Everyone takes magic missiles already for dealing with elves. They're free points.

As for terrorgheists, they're great contextually but hugely overrated. Against anyone with cannons or poison shooting they're a massive liability. Their range is also very small, and getting them in screaming distance means putting them at risk.

Spiney Norman
19-09-2014, 15:09
Chariots are godawful garbage in competitive Warhammer. Everyone takes magic missiles already for dealing with elves. They're free points.

As for terrorgheists, they're great contextually but hugely overrated. Against anyone with cannons or poison shooting they're a massive liability. Their range is also very small, and getting them in screaming distance means putting them at risk.

No-one is saying Terrorgheists are 'point-and-click', sure they require at least some thought to use them properly, they're also no more vulnerable to cannons than any of a whole host of monsters that see use, stegs, sphinxes, dragons etc, but they do have the crucial advantage of flying which allows them to take greater advantage of any available cover (walls, buildings etc). Terrorgheists are not supposed to be invulnerable, or able to dismantle armies by themselves, if you think it's overrated you're probably not using it right.

As for chariots, I'm not sure I agree that all chariots are garbage, my tomb king ones do pretty well

Althwen
19-09-2014, 15:35
Oh come. The argument: My unit X isn't overpowered because it can be killed by cannons and poisoned shooting is garbage. Not because it isn't true, but because that goes for everyone! The way artillery currently works sucks, but everytime a terrorgheist bears the brunt of such an attack, I feel nothing but justice. The Terrorgheist entry is stupidly written to worm its way through every loophole in the book. If it had a powerful attack that followed normal rules outlined in the BRB, nobody would have a problem with it (well, not more than every currently has a problem with cannons anyway) But the meandering string of exceptional wordings is what makes that thing get on my nerves.

Anyway, I played a game with TK's version of Undead legion where I included only 2 spirit hosts for chaff, exchanged Tomb guard for GG and got a level 4 Necro instead of a liche priest. These things in addition to the march bubble gave me so much more freedom and, I might add, so much more FUN! This is exactly what I've been waiting for. With a few minor changes TK's just got fun to play. Good job GW.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
19-09-2014, 16:53
No-one is saying Terrorgheists are 'point-and-click', sure they require at least some thought to use them properly, they're also no more vulnerable to cannons than any of a whole host of monsters that see use, stegs, sphinxes, dragons etc, but they do have the crucial advantage of flying which allows them to take greater advantage of any available cover (walls, buildings etc). Terrorgheists are not supposed to be invulnerable, or able to dismantle armies by themselves, if you think it's overrated you're probably not using it right.

As for chariots, I'm not sure I agree that all chariots are garbage, my tomb king ones do pretty well
I meant hex wraiths are garbage. Not sure why I said chariots.

As for terrorgheists, they are certainly very powerful against certain armies. But they're so vulnerable against so many armies that they're really not as powerful as people say they are. There are a lot of armies where you'll be lucky to get your points back before the TG gets toasted.

Both units CAN be powerful, but they're so easily countered that they're not nearly as strong a choice as everyone seems to think.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
19-09-2014, 17:03
Oh come. The argument: My unit X isn't overpowered because it can be killed by cannons and poisoned shooting is garbage. Not because it isn't true, but because that goes for everyone! The way artillery currently works sucks, but everytime a terrorgheist bears the brunt of such an attack, I feel nothing but justice. The Terrorgheist entry is stupidly written to worm its way through every loophole in the book. If it had a powerful attack that followed normal rules outlined in the BRB, nobody would have a problem with it (well, not more than every currently has a problem with cannons anyway) But the meandering string of exceptional wordings is what makes that thing get on my nerves.

Anyway, I played a game with TK's version of Undead legion where I included only 2 spirit hosts for chaff, exchanged Tomb guard for GG and got a level 4 Necro instead of a liche priest. These things in addition to the march bubble gave me so much more freedom and, I might add, so much more FUN! This is exactly what I've been waiting for. With a few minor changes TK's just got fun to play. Good job GW.

I really don't get your problem with them. So they can scream into combat? So can every ranged attack in the VC book.

TGs also get worse the moment they start taking wounds, to the point where they're quite useless at 3 wounds and below. Magic can heal them back up but that takes resources and can be stopped.

I just don't get why people complain about them so much. I've fought both with and against them plenty and I'm fully aware of how easy it is to deal with them. Ignore them at your peril, but I assume none of us are dumb enough to do that here.

Astraeos
20-09-2014, 11:25
Can we be done with the bickering and get back to tactics discussions?

logan054
20-09-2014, 20:17
You do realise that terrorgheist screams are vastly more powerful and points efficient than any shooting found in the TK book? TK archers themselves are massively overrated unless you combine them with Khalida.

I read your point and just started rolling my eyes saying "really" in an incredibly sarcastic tone. Are you saying that with a couple of expensive monsters that are rare constitutes a better shooting phase than what TK have to offer?

Spiney Norman
20-09-2014, 21:59
I read your point and just started rolling my eyes saying "really" in an incredibly sarcastic tone. Are you saying that with a couple of expensive monsters that are rare constitutes a better shooting phase than what TK have to offer?

That probably depends on what you think a strong tomb kings shooting phase is. Do I think a couple of TGs can outshoot three hordes of skeleton archers with khalida, a smattering of horse archers and a brace of catapults? No of course not.

Do I think a terrorgheist can radically outperform it's own points cost in skeleton archers/bowshabti/catapults? Hell yes!

Tomb kings can build a (fairly inefficient) bow-line, VC can't, so directly comparing a 'ranged army' from the two books doesn't really work.

The thing is, the TK bow-list isn't really that good, the only reason it is popular is that there are so few alternative tactical options out there for the kings. I'm interested to see how the dominance of ranged TK diminishes as the undead legion list gives them access to marching and makes more aggressive tactics viable.

zoltan
20-09-2014, 22:11
The thing is, the TK bow-list isn't really that good, the only reason it is popular is that there are so few alternative tactical options out there for the kings. I'm interested to see how the dominance of ranged TK diminishes as the undead legion list gives them access to marching and makes more aggressive tactics viable.

Except that a TK khalida ranged list has won at least 1 major tournament

Wesser
21-09-2014, 08:35
That probably depends on what you think a strong tomb kings shooting phase is. Do I think a couple of TGs can outshoot three hordes of skeleton archers with khalida, a smattering of horse archers and a brace of catapults? No of course not.

Do I think a terrorgheist can radically outperform it's own points cost in skeleton archers/bowshabti/catapults? Hell yes!

Tomb kings can build a (fairly inefficient) bow-line, VC can't, so directly comparing a 'ranged army' from the two books doesn't really work.

The thing is, the TK bow-list isn't really that good, the only reason it is popular is that there are so few alternative tactical options out there for the kings. I'm interested to see how the dominance of ranged TK diminishes as the undead legion list gives them access to marching and makes more aggressive tactics viable.

Terrorgheists have a lot of shortcomings, īchief of which is how a bad roll against their intended target usually seems them dead in return (and they aren't cheap). Only did 2 wounds on that Doomwheel? Bye-bye Terrorgheist

TK shooting is super efficient - as long as you don't build Khalida-less bowlines - because it's super reliable. A unit of 12 Bowmen doesn't cost much and is pretty much the bane of skirmishers and fast Cavalry which VC struggle with.

At the end of the day there's very few Things a Terrorgheist do that I couldnt get out of a Vampire on Helsteed or a small unit of Blood Knights, so it's more of an issue that the Terrorgheist doesnt add too much to the army.

Would I trade the Terrorgheists option for Archers & Catapults with Tomb Kings? Yeeeep...any day

pinktaco
21-09-2014, 09:26
Meh.. I'm currently making what is quite a cheap army money wise since I have to start up from the ground.

2 battalions from TK, 8 crypt horrors, 10 black knights, 2 boxes of spirit hosts, a varghulf and mortis engine.

I can get half the Knights and the varghulf used for cheap money. The battalions, other half of knights and crypt horrors I can buy from a Danish store that sells them with roughly a 40% discount.

The battalion is going to result in 40 archers and sword/board skellies, 6 chariots and 16 archers horsies.

With this I'm able to make 2500pts cavalry based army. I have no clue how efficient it's going to be, but I'm looking forward to try it out. I already have the first half so things are moving forward.

What would be the best configuration for 40 Archers? 1 x 20 and 2 x 10? they're mostly there to shoot chaff for my cavalry to get into play. The thing I kinda worry about though is not getting enough hard hitting power in the army. Chariots are fine, but acts as bullets, knights rely on the charge (going to put vlord and Wight king into it), but after the initial charge they're sort of "useless". Running a varghulf wasn't my original plan, but since I got it for half the original price it'll be tried out a few times. It appears to be alright with WS5 and hatred, but a cannon can wreck it's face easily.
Great thing is though that I'm not playing tournaments, just friendly games that sometimes will end up with power builds and other times the more fluffy ones.

Oh and I bought a couple of mounted lahmia vamps and one one foot. I also got a mounted necrarch vamp (the one without the silly hat thing) and have cut off the teeth to make it look like a necromancer instead. I'll also be getting a couple of necromancers on foot from a friend. Overall I'm going for a Lahmia fast hitting army =)

Spiney Norman
21-09-2014, 22:36
Terrorgheists have a lot of shortcomings, īchief of which is how a bad roll against their intended target usually seems them dead in return (and they aren't cheap). Only did 2 wounds on that Doomwheel? Bye-bye Terrorgheist

TK shooting is super efficient - as long as you don't build Khalida-less bowlines - because it's super reliable. A unit of 12 Bowmen doesn't cost much and is pretty much the bane of skirmishers and fast Cavalry which VC struggle with.

At the end of the day there's very few Things a Terrorgheist do that I couldnt get out of a Vampire on Helsteed or a small unit of Blood Knights, so it's more of an issue that the Terrorgheist doesnt add too much to the army.

Would I trade the Terrorgheists option for Archers & Catapults with Tomb Kings? Yeeeep...any day

If you insist on buying a 360pt special character to make your shooting acceptable I guess that's up to you, massed shooting does not work for TK unless you bring Khalida and not everyone wants to base their army around a special character, trust me, I've tried it. In my TK army, archers make a handy priest bunker and anti-chaff deterrent and do a handsome job of helping to fill my minimum core allowance.

Maoriboy007
22-09-2014, 01:15
As someone who plays both armies , I reckon you both have a point. Yes the terrorghiest is overrated, and so is TK shooting. TK shooting may be more efficient, but that doesn't equate to anything like good. A Terrorghiest has a load of limiting factors so that an opponent that pays attention can counter it pretty effectively. Both tend to require a boatload of point investment to get decent returns.

As it is Im looking forward to trying a plain TK list without the gimping restrictions , although I'll miss playing my settra list. Ive already Played a 4K Nagash list vs a Chaos DE alliance, I think I'll reserve judgement until I play a smaller sized battle with him as he pretty much sat in the backround raising fodder to distract witchelves and attracting hellcannon Fire and Gateways, with a bit more luck on my opponants side I would have lost him early, so hes not as unkillable as might be thought, but he was tough enough to take the heat of the other 3K of my army so points well spent.

Wesser
22-09-2014, 05:50
If you insist on buying a 360pt special character to make your shooting acceptable I guess that's up to you, massed shooting does not work for TK unless you bring Khalida and not everyone wants to base their army around a special character, trust me, I've tried it. In my TK army, archers make a handy priest bunker and anti-chaff deterrent and do a handsome job of helping to fill my minimum core allowance.

Who was talking massed shooting? A few Skull Catapults can do as well as Terrorgheist screams and a few small archer units are great for chaff duty.

It doesn't have to be about her you know...

Spiney Norman
22-09-2014, 07:52
As someone who plays both armies , I reckon you both have a point. Yes the terrorghiest is overrated, and so is TK shooting. TK shooting may be more efficient, but that doesn't equate to anything like good. A Terrorghiest has a load of limiting factors so that an opponent that pays attention can counter it pretty effectively. Both tend to require a boatload of point investment to get decent returns.

As it is Im looking forward to trying a plain TK list without the gimping restrictions , although I'll miss playing my settra list. Ive already Played a 4K Nagash list vs a Chaos DE alliance, I think I'll reserve judgement until I play a smaller sized battle with him as he pretty much sat in the backround raising fodder to distract witchelves and attracting hellcannon Fire and Gateways, with a bit more luck on my opponants side I would have lost him early, so hes not as unkillable as might be thought, but he was tough enough to take the heat of the other 3K of my army so points well spent.

How did your Nagash game go, I'm literally just finishing the paint job on mine, and hoping to get him to the table in the next week or so.

Maoriboy007
23-09-2014, 00:33
How did your Nagash game go, I'm literally just finishing the paint job on mine, and hoping to get him to the table in the next week or so.It was pretty much a slaughter for the Nagash side, part of it was simply because my opponents were magic light in comparison and Nagash managed to absorb everything thrown at him thanks to the Lore of Vampires attribute. It can also be difficult to coordinate two different armies, despite facing Archaon a Hellcannon and two DE Dragon Lords, the Hellcannon was by far the greatest threat and the most difficult to deal with. Archaon was mostly dangerous thanks to gateway, Vilitch could have done better.
Thanks to the 4K points I could afford Khalida and some archers (who shot off some rather annoying mobile DE units, including Warlocks) and a Red Fury Vamp Lord and some Black Knights , who basically used his Lore to give Nagash wounds and made the Chaos army hesitate. I summoned/chaffed the opposing army to buy time ( especially being able to redirect some witch elves) while Khalida shot up the Dark elves and Nagash finally started to summon some nasty units.
Luck played its part on both sides, I lost a Necrosphinx early to a gateway, and nearly lost Nagash to several direct hits from a Hellcannon, if he hadn't rolled a one to wound...
I also managed to kill his DE General with the Casket (the casket has only ever done anything significant twice, both times it has been against the DE general on a dragon) and have his other dragon fail a charge, WoC was also playing magic roulette with gateway, going for the double 6s and eventually losing Archaons magic Levels to a miscast, so after killing the DE Warlock Unit with Khalida Nagash largely had carte blanche. Its hard to say whether Nagash was simply too good, or whether luck was a deciding factor , or my opponants (who were facing the Nagash and the legion for the first time mind) didn't have the right tools for the job.
Probably a combination of all three in the end, so I'm not sure if I'm sold on Nagash and the Lore of Undeath (which seems overpowering with Nagash and near worthless without him) , but I kind of like being able to mix and match the Vampire and TK armies. The VC Lore is so much better from a utility point of view, and being able to march makes cavalry and flying TK units worth something now.

Tarrell
23-09-2014, 02:21
While Nagash could raise 450+ of Blood Knights, or 300+ of tombguard, skeleies etc, the summoning rules don't indicate you can assign the raise points to magic standards, or even include command. Just says 300pts of Infantry. Think a bit of interpretation could be used but that would need to be agreed before a game begins.
Raising a new unit is one thing, but including magic items on them is a whole different kettle of fish.

Skywave
23-09-2014, 03:13
While Nagash could raise 450+ of Blood Knights, or 300+ of tombguard, skeleies etc, the summoning rules don't indicate you can assign the raise points to magic standards, or even include command. Just says 300pts of Infantry. Think a bit of interpretation could be used but that would need to be agreed before a game begins.
Raising a new unit is one thing, but including magic items on them is a whole different kettle of fish.

Yes they do specify what you can do.


Summoned units can be upgraded to include any options listed in their army list entries, but must adhere to their minimum unit sizes as normal.

Tarrell
23-09-2014, 03:17
Yes they do specify what you can do.

Thanks I wasn't sure on that.

Enigmatik1
23-09-2014, 13:02
Probably a combination of all three in the end, so I'm not sure if I'm sold on Nagash and the Lore of Undeath (which seems overpowering with Nagash and near worthless without him) , but I kind of like being able to mix and match the Vampire and TK armies. The VC Lore is so much better from a utility point of view, and being able to march makes cavalry and flying TK units worth something now.

Other than liking the model or the extremely low starting model count of a Nagoon-based army, I can't help but think Arkhan might be a better all-around compromise if you want to tool around with lists predicated on Summoning. I could be wrong, though...

I think I've personally settled on the only thing I can put in my lists are Black Knights and/or a Vampire Lord built to try and abuse the bevvy of Leadership shenanigans available to one riding a Coven Throne (because I love me some Leadership shenanigans...lol).

Maoriboy007
24-09-2014, 00:11
Other than liking the model or the extremely low starting model count of a Nagoon-based army, I can't help but think Arkhan might be a better all-around compromise if you want to tool around with lists predicated on Summoning. I could be wrong, though...After looking at a speculative 2.5K Nagash list I found the low initial model count very disturbing. A bad magic phase or two could set you back quite a bit.


I think I've personally settled on the only thing I can put in my lists are Black Knights and/or a Vampire Lord built to try and abuse the bevvy of Leadership shenanigans available to one riding a Coven Throne (because I love me some Leadership shenanigans...lol). Sound interesting, let me know how it works out. You might get some value with the -1 Ld power and casket Light of Death combo.

Enigmatik1
24-09-2014, 15:40
Low model count doesn't bother me. In fact, I personally favor low model count armies (my Beastmen force being the lone exception due to running both Ungor and Gor). I definitely think you're right though, hence why I suggested Arkhan as I feel like he gives you a little more of a buffer to make it through those lackluster phases where nothing goes according to plan.

Well, I definitely think the potential is there for the LD tomfoolery. I am still trying to get a full grip of the VC book so I might be off on a few things, but I might be PMing you over the next couple of days to look over a couple of Vampire Lord builds I'm mucking with for your take.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
24-09-2014, 22:06
Arkhan/Nagash is an interesting gimmick, but I think that using none of the new UL units is the best way towards building a balanced list with all the tools you need to build a really competitive force.

Casket+Periapt gives you the tools to run a truly overwhelming dice advantage. Marching warsphinxes accompanying a BK bus are pretty lethal as well, and far outstrip the stopping-power of crypt horrors on an point-for-point basis.

In addition I really like the interplay between the lores, especially when combined with units from the other side. Killing blow vargheists. RF vampires with extra attacks. Rerolls to wound on the abundant killing blow in TK. Lore of Vampires is also a tool custom-made for grinding armies, and combined with TK models were all the better for it. Combine that with all the VC tools for throwing hurt into units locked into combat, with screams and mortis engines or curse of years, there's a huge amount of potential there.

Maoriboy007
26-09-2014, 11:38
Low model count doesn't bother me. In fact, I personally favor low model count armies (my Beastmen force being the lone exception due to running both Ungor and Gor). I definitely think you're right though, hence why I suggested Arkhan as I feel like he gives you a little more of a buffer to make it through those lackluster phases where nothing goes according to plan.

Well, I definitely think the potential is there for the LD tomfoolery. I am still trying to get a full grip of the VC book so I might be off on a few things, but I might be PMing you over the next couple of days to look over a couple of Vampire Lord builds I'm mucking with for your take.the Lord build I use the most is

Mounted on Barded Steed
Heavy Armour
Nightshroud
Great weapon
Talisman 4+ ward
Other tricksters shard
Quickblood
Beguile
+ magic levels

He has a 2+ armour save and negates weapon strength bonus and a 4+ ward and a lucky beguile has them re-rolling successful hits. opponents are also inflicted with ASL (f@$k elves and their stupidrerolls) so his initiative allows him to strike before most opponents at str 7 forcing them to reroll wards, so solid defence and a decent offence, but if you leave out Red Fury and The ASF re-rolls I consider him tough but fair, especially since he's carrying the army on his back.
For Demon princes , Elves and the like throwing in Red Fury and Vanhels (to regain the re-rolls) is fair game as it's normally an even matchup.

Wesser
26-09-2014, 12:19
the Lord build I use the most is

He has a 2+ armour save and negates weapon strength bonus and a 4+ ward and a lucky beguile has them re-rolling successful hits. opponents are also inflicted with ASL (f@$k elves and their stupidrerolls) so his initiative allows him to strike before most opponents at str 7 forcing them to reroll wards, so solid defence and a decent offence, but if you leave out Red Fury and The ASF re-rolls I consider him tough but fair, especially since he's carrying the army on his back.
For Demon princes , Elves and the like throwing in Red Fury and Vanhels (to regain the re-rolls) is fair game as it's normally an even matchup.

Any build without Red Fury is fair.

In fact a Vampire Lord is arguably a pretty inefficient use of points without it(which is perhaps the biggest flaw in the book)

Lord Zarkov
26-09-2014, 20:27
When the current VC book dropped I tried builds for my Vampire Lord that were built around survivability rather than Red Fury - every single game she died to combat resolution.

Then I gave in to making her a blenderlord and she rarely dies and murderizes most things put in front of her.

Enigmatik1
29-09-2014, 21:00
When the current VC book dropped I tried builds for my Vampire Lord that were built around survivability rather than Red Fury - every single game she died to combat resolution.

Then I gave in to making her a blenderlord and she rarely dies and murderizes most things put in front of her.

Combat resolution is the bane of most Undead combat characters, honestly. When I look back on all the Tomb Kings and Princes I've lost since picking up the army, roughly 75% of them have been due to the Unstable rule. I rarely have anyone or anything just walk up to and beat the crap out of a King or Prince I field. The best I can do is give my Kings the Sword of Bloodshed if I'm really afraid of getting screwed by the [crappy] Unstable rule and hope for the best. Which brings up a related question...how are Vampire Lords with Red Fury AND the Sword of Bloodshed viewed?

forseer of fates
29-09-2014, 22:49
Hate the mortarchs having no foot versions, other week, mannfred trying to help out some crypt horrors, went badly and lost by 11, ofc he went poof.

Wesser
30-09-2014, 06:45
how are Vampire Lords with Red Fury AND the Sword of Bloodshed viewed?

Elves don't tend to be fans

Risktakers who feel too awesome for ward saves combines with either Nightshroud or Enchanted Shield/Potion of Strength



The combo can be very powerful, but it's not compatible with ward saves and if your opponent brings a lot of 1+ saves you'd do well to have Terrorgheists or Blood Knights handy

the_picto
30-09-2014, 09:17
So I'm thinking of taking a tomb prince to put in my grave guard unit for the WS5. Is it worth paying the extra 70pts for a tomb king? Unless there's a really awesome magic item combo that you need 100pts for, I think WS5 will do just fine.

ewar
30-09-2014, 11:44
Personally I find it is, though I think most TK players would say not. I run a Tomb King with great weapon, tricksters helm, talisman of preservation and potion of foolhardiness and he does great for me. Just last weekend he killed a HE Prince on steed with ogre blade and re-rollable 1+ armour who also had Savage beast cast on him (!).

Forcing opponents to re-roll successful wounds is pretty great (unless they have killing blow, in which case you're in trouble, though mine is usually mounted on a chariot for immunity). I would recommend trying him out anyway, the additional 4 S7 attacks can tip combats against 1+ saves.

Enigmatik1
30-09-2014, 13:00
Personally I find it is, though I think most TK players would say not. I run a Tomb King with great weapon, tricksters helm, talisman of preservation and potion of foolhardiness and he does great for me. Just last weekend he killed a HE Prince on steed with ogre blade and re-rollable 1+ armour who also had Savage beast cast on him (!).

Forcing opponents to re-roll successful wounds is pretty great (unless they have killing blow, in which case you're in trouble, though mine is usually mounted on a chariot for immunity). I would recommend trying him out anyway, the additional 4 S7 attacks can tip combats against 1+ saves.


I can co-sign this somewhat. When the new book first came out, I ran an oddball combo of the Trickster's Helm and the Blade of Antarhak. It irritated me that we had no way to restore wounds to our characters, while pretty much everyone else could with the Lore of Life. It generally worked fairly well, once again, save when facing a lot of KB. The good thing here is that our army IS the Killing Blow army so I rarely saw much of it fielded outside of within my own forces. Flaming negating the potential Regen of the Blade kinda sucked too since Kings are Flammable, but surprisingly it has almost never came up (I ran Dragonbane/Dragonhelm a LOT around this combo...so it was generally assumed I had it).

Folomo
30-09-2014, 13:18
My experience is that WS5 is more than enough against 90% of your opponents and against the other 10% is wouldn't have made a difference, unless you are building the deathstarishest deathstart in the block.
So if WS6 is the only reason you are going for a King, don't.
100 points gear (so, items that cost 51+ or super geared character) and ld 10 are the real reasons you should be taking a King IMO. Else, multiple prince with GW tend to do the same work for less points.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
01-10-2014, 06:43
My experience is that WS5 is more than enough against 90% of your opponents and against the other 10% is wouldn't have made a difference, unless you are building the deathstarishest deathstart in the block.
So if WS6 is the only reason you are going for a King, don't.
100 points gear (so, items that cost 51+ or super geared character) and ld 10 are the real reasons you should be taking a King IMO. Else, multiple prince with GW tend to do the same work for less points.
This right here. If you want a King it should be for a reason other than +1 WS. Golden deathmask, LD 10 for death snipes, HKB, points denial. WS6 on its own just isn't worth it.

I think a prince in with GG is fine. Outside of the unit, champion just inside to protect with challenge shenanigans. Give him glittering scales and a DBG with a GW and you're golden. At T5 -1 to hit most things are hitting on 5s wounding on 4 or worse. Outside of the unit he won't take enough attacks to be dragged down before the unit mulches whatever its up against.

the_picto
01-10-2014, 11:40
Thanks for the suggestions. I kinda assumed that 70pts was too much just for the extra pip of WS. I might try a tooled king at some point; the trickster helm and talisman of preservation perhaps, but will mostly stick to a tooled prince and spend my lord points on lvl4 necromancers/liche priests and vampire lords.

Mallory
24-12-2014, 16:55
I am going to run a new unit next game. Grave Guard, with a Tomb Prince wearing the Glittering Scales and Mortarch Vlad. Really Hard to hit and pretty hard-hitting itself.

Best,

Mallory

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
24-12-2014, 17:07
I am going to run a new unit next game. Grave Guard, with a Tomb Prince wearing the Glittering Scales and Mortarch Vlad. Really Hard to hit and pretty hard-hitting itself.

Best,

Mallory

So 1,200 points of M4. A good opponent will never let that unit see combat. If you're going to do it I say make it a huge brick of core skeletons and rely on Vlad/TP/SCR to win combats instead.

I made a silly list the other day with Vlad+prince+'tect in 80 skeleton archers, flanked by 8 crypt horrors on one side, 8 greatshabti on the other, and two mortis engines in behind, plus dogs. WS5 -1 to hit skeletons with Regen 5+ and hatred, Ushabti/Crypt Horrors with Regen 4+, and no easy points anywhere in the list.

Mallory
24-12-2014, 21:29
So 1,200 points of M4. A good opponent will never let that unit see combat. If you're going to do it I say make it a huge brick of core skeletons and rely on Vlad/TP/SCR to win combats instead.

I made a silly list the other day with Vlad+prince+'tect in 80 skeleton archers, flanked by 8 crypt horrors on one side, 8 greatshabti on the other, and two mortis engines in behind, plus dogs. WS5 -1 to hit skeletons with Regen 5+ and hatred, Ushabti/Crypt Horrors with Regen 4+, and no easy points anywhere in the list.


A really good point... I just wanted to try the stacked benefits that those units can provide. With Vlad 'Dansing' his way up the field they might get in with something; perhaps another relatively immobile block i.e. Chaos Warriors, Halberdiers etc.

Just something I wanted to try. Ultimately, I think the problem with Deathstar units in general is that a skilled opponent can always avoid them for what are actually fairly short games at only 5 turns.

Best,

Mallory

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
24-12-2014, 22:50
A really good point... I just wanted to try the stacked benefits that those units can provide. With Vlad 'Dansing' his way up the field they might get in with something; perhaps another relatively immobile block i.e. Chaos Warriors, Halberdiers etc.

Just something I wanted to try. Ultimately, I think the problem with Deathstar units in general is that a skilled opponent can always avoid them for what are actually fairly short games at only 5 turns.

Best,

Mallory

Vanhels doesn't help them deal with being chaffed. Nor does it help with them dispelling Vanhels.

Really depends in what your field looks like though. If your opponents are the sort who build big combat bricks and grind them into each other while drinking beer and rolling dice then this would be awesome. If you're playing against players with nimble little tournament lists, avoidance armies, or things like skink clouds, then you're gunna have a bad time.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Heirube
03-01-2015, 04:26
My stock build usually includes Necro Knights x4 or 5 in front with archers, lvl 4, and Ramhotep behind. Mortis engine nearby. That gives the NK a rerollable 3+ armor and a 5+ regen, they are naturally WS4 and T4 so they tend to be a great anvil unit that can heal 6 wounds with the Vampire Lore signature spell. Add a 2nd Mortis Engine for funzies and 4+ regen?

My other favorite currently is a brick or 2 of Crypt Horrors backed up by a Mortis Engine, they don't put out a ton of damage but they sure are hard to kill off and easy to heal back.

Usually run 2 blocks of 6 chariots, one on each flank or both together backed up by a lvl 4 on a Corpse Cart.

Oh and Lore of Nehekhara is officially dead to me. Vampires all the way but I tactfully call it "Lore of Mummies" and keep all my units TK themed :)

Zinch
04-01-2015, 13:19
My stock build usually includes Necro Knights x4 or 5 in front with archers, lvl 4, and Ramhotep behind. Mortis engine nearby. That gives the NK a rerollable 3+ armor and a 5+ regen, they are naturally WS4 and T4 so they tend to be a great anvil unit that can heal 6 wounds with the Vampire Lore signature spell. Add a 2nd Mortis Engine for funzies and 4+ regen?

My other favorite currently is a brick or 2 of Crypt Horrors backed up by a Mortis Engine, they don't put out a ton of damage but they sure are hard to kill off and easy to heal back.

Usually run 2 blocks of 6 chariots, one on each flank or both together backed up by a lvl 4 on a Corpse Cart.

Oh and Lore of Nehekhara is officially dead to me. Vampires all the way but I tactfully call it "Lore of Mummies" and keep all my units TK themed :)

You can only heal one wound per casting of your Necropolis Knights because they are Animated Constructs

Edit: AND more important: you cannot use Ramhotep in an Undead's Legion Army

Spiney Norman
05-01-2015, 07:52
So I'm thinking of taking a tomb prince to put in my grave guard unit for the WS5. Is it worth paying the extra 70pts for a tomb king? Unless there's a really awesome magic item combo that you need 100pts for, I think WS5 will do just fine.

The temptation is to think that Kings and princes fulfill the same role, they don't.
Tomb princes are a unit buff, nothing more, Kings couple that buff with a powerful and survivable General character, both are good, but it does depend what you are after. If you just want someone to buff the performance of your combat block then you want a prince, if you want a robust Ld10 General that buffs his unit, choose the king.

The Irish Commissar
05-01-2015, 18:24
Aa anyone ever tried throwing in the tomb kings banner which let's you bring back d6 + 2, but that with spells and you could be bringing back 10+ models back every turn. Is it a bit much though.

kikibobo
05-01-2015, 21:01
Aa anyone ever tried throwing in the tomb kings banner which let's you bring back d6 + 2, but that with spells and you could be bringing back 10+ models back every turn. Is it a bit much though.

I think necros and vamps do a good enough job of healing everything up without it. I guess if you were set on not including those two and just using liche priests, it could be helpful

Mallory
09-01-2015, 23:15
The availability of the Casket of Souls, Archers and Screaming Skull Catapults for Undead Legions allows for a very defensive, magic-orientated and really quite potent force. What more defensive units might be included to support these ranged elements?

I have been using Mannfred and the CoS, 40 Archers and 2 Catapults, alongside a Master Necromancer and some Tomb Kings Chariots for Core (used mostly as a bullet for an expensive enemy unit)

Which other units have synergy with the long-range defensive nature of this list?

Best,

Mallory

Spiney Norman
10-01-2015, 00:01
So guys I'm after some tips, I have a game on Tuesday night, Glotkins chaos legion vs Nagash's undead legion (I'm playing Nagash), aside from 40 Mantic zombies I picked up for Christmas my collection is entirely tomb king based. I'm thinking of the following for my starting list

Nagash (6 spells on LoU, 2 on LoV)
Liche priest L2 (Nehekhara) with a scroll

30 skeleton archers
6 chariots
10 Horsemen

Warsphinx
Hierotitan
Catapult
Casket of souls

My philosophy was to start with the units that are hardest to summon (like monsters, chariots and warmachines) on the table and leave my infantry units as summonable assets for the game. I don't have any crypt horrors so don't even go there ;)

Summonable assets I have
50 skeletons
40 zombies
25 Tomb Guard
6 Ushabti
6 Necropolis Knights
6 Carrion
Plenty of tomb kings/princes to sprinkle among the army and even Khalida if I manage to accrue enough tokens

Mallory
13-01-2015, 00:56
So guys I'm after some tips, I have a game on Tuesday night, Glotkins chaos legion vs Nagash's undead legion (I'm playing Nagash), aside from 40 Mantic zombies I picked up for Christmas my collection is entirely tomb king based. I'm thinking of the following for my starting list

Nagash (6 spells on LoU, 2 on LoV)
Liche priest L2 (Nehekhara) with a scroll

30 skeleton archers
6 chariots
10 Horsemen

Warsphinx
Hierotitan
Catapult
Casket of souls

My philosophy was to start with the units that are hardest to summon (like monsters, chariots and warmachines) on the table and leave my infantry units as summonable assets for the game. I don't have any crypt horrors so don't even go there ;)

Summonable assets I have
50 skeletons
40 zombies
25 Tomb Guard
6 Ushabti
6 Necropolis Knights
6 Carrion
Plenty of tomb kings/princes to sprinkle among the army and even Khalida if I manage to accrue enough tokens

What is your question?

Best,

Mallory

Maoriboy007
13-01-2015, 01:55
Nagash could probably summon that Dispel Scroll Necromancer without too much difficulty, usually just in front of an enemy unit to die , redirect and be re-summoned later.

Mallory
13-01-2015, 19:05
Of course each unit is situational.

I would prioritise the Carrion and the Necropolis Knights.

Summon the Carrion on the fringes of your force early in the game as they will not be able to march into position.

Summon the Knights in the Mid-game to crush an enemy unit, or hold a killy enemy unit in place. Remember you cannot give up VP's for the loss of a summoned unit; so you can be more liberal with the combats you send them into.

Hope this helps.

Best,

Mallory

Mallory
13-01-2015, 19:19
Of course each unit is situational.

I would prioritise the Carrion and the Necropolis Knights.

Summon the Carrion on the fringes of your force early in the game as they will not be able to march into position.

Summon the Knights in the Mid-game to crush an enemy unit, or hold a killy enemy unit in place. Remember you cannot give up VP's for the loss of a summoned unit; so you can be more liberal with the combats you send them into.

Hope this helps.

Best,

Mallory

Also, Nagash is a very potent summoner. You shouldn't have a problem summoning all of the assets you listed; it's about the order and position in which you summon them.

Best,

Mallory

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
15-01-2015, 20:03
Why summon carrion when the same spell can be used to summon spirit hosts? Why summon necroknights when the same spell can buy hex wraiths and blood knights? Unless you have some buff magic to make those necroknights good, both hexxies and blood knights have a lot more utility on their own.

Something I will also suggest picking up, though, is vargheists. Nagash can raise...9? I think? A massive whack of them in the very least. Unlike any of the above units you can put a big brick of vargheists in someone's face and they'll tear a chunk out of them before they can do anything. If you have range to put them behind then...yikes. Watch out!

DocDropPod
16-01-2015, 06:52
I know the general consensus of BSB's in Undead armies (Tomb Herald, Wraith -I think)... They're rubbish, useless- the list goes on.
But has anybody considered what BSB's can actually do for Undead armies?
Let's look at this example
Imagine your large block of Undead (whether it be elite skeletons or a construct) loses combat or has its General/Hierophant die and needs to take a crumble test with a BSB within 12"
These units take a Ld test(usually 8), re-rollable due to the BSB and takes one less with the BSB close-by and one more less if the units a construct.
Thus lowering the odds of losing more wounds because of crumbling.
I don't know about everyone else but it doesn't seem a too bad a way to spend 85pts

Thoughts?


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the_picto
16-01-2015, 12:39
In the undead legion you no longer take crumble tests when the general dies, so you don't need a bsb for that.

If you are taking a wight king anyway, then the extra 25pts for more combat res isn't bad, plus reducing crumble for nearby units by one.

On the subject of generals, could I just get confirmation on who is the general? Used to be my wizard with the highest LD, so normally my vampire, but is it now just the model with the higher LD without the requirement of being a wizard? I played a game recently with a hero vampire, a tomb prince and a lich priest. I was used to the vampire being in charge, but thought that these days it had to be the prince as he is LD 9. Was that correct?

Mallory
16-01-2015, 17:02
Why summon carrion when the same spell can be used to summon spirit hosts? Why summon necroknights when the same spell can buy hex wraiths and blood knights? Unless you have some buff magic to make those necroknights good, both hexxies and blood knights have a lot more utility on their own.

Something I will also suggest picking up, though, is vargheists. Nagash can raise...9? I think? A massive whack of them in the very least. Unlike any of the above units you can put a big brick of vargheists in someone's face and they'll tear a chunk out of them before they can do anything. If you have range to put them behind then...yikes. Watch out!

Because none of the units you mention are listed in the Summonable Assests Spiney Norman posted.

Best,

Mallory

Mallory
16-01-2015, 17:05
Because none of the units you mention are listed in the Summonable Assests Spiney Norman posted.

Best,

Mallory

Also, the rulebook clearly states that you must have the models that represent your summoned unit in order to place it on the battlefield.

Best,

Mallory

Lord Shadowheart
20-01-2015, 00:44
has anyone tried out Neferata yet? I like the model, but her rules just seem poor for her points cost.

Mallory
24-01-2015, 16:20
has anyone tried out Neferata yet? I like the model, but her rules just seem poor for her points cost.

I think she is the weakest of the three Mortarch, as her magic potential is far less. That being said she very dangerous in combat. Perhaps so than any other character in the game. This is because of her high initiative, combined with ASF, which as her and her Terror have a combined profile, means she can make an I9 Thunderstomp.

I'm confident she would murder almost any other character in a challenge up to her own points cost (and then turn them into a Vampire!)

As for points; I feel that Mannfred is slightly undercosted in the grand-scheme of End Times monstrous characters, so perhaps Neferata is priced right... She is very situational, but very potent.

Best,

Mallory

kikibobo
12-02-2015, 19:05
So I am in the process of trying out a friend's VC army which I plan to purchase and "convert" to undead legions. As a general note, we typically play 2k games. I am playing around with army builds and I have too much to work with for just jumping into this, so I had a few questions. I really have too many lists I am theorycrafting, so I am looking more for general advice than hard and fast choices.

A couple of the armies I put together use crypt horrors as my anvil, but I am trying to squeak out the 6-7 I can manage in those lists into more like 9+. When using crypt horrors as an anvil, how big would they need to be effective, generally? I would try to keep my necro/liche close by for buffs and healing. I feel like 6 is too few, even if I take a block or two of skelies or zombies to assist, but I have heard 12 thrown out before and think that is a little too much.

So once I have my crypt horror block or some skelies/zombies as my anvil, I am trying to decide how to take a unit of black knights. I have been putting 1-2 vampire lords with the unit, standard and champ, and banner of barrows, and running 13-14, but if I drop that down to 8-9, will they lose too much viability as a hammer. Most of the time, the vamp(s) is/are lvl 2 which means they have 3 wounds coming back if I pull off an invoc.

Finally, the list I am trying tonight has the GG bus going on with necrotech, tomb prince, and vampire blender lord (lvl 2 atm). In core, I have 20 skelie archers with flaming banner, 4 chariots, and 3x5 dire wolves (A core combo I am playing with). In rare, I am either going to take CoS + SSC or a terrorgeist. And I have a lvl 4 necro/liche (allotted 10 extra points for whichever I want to take). This list currently has 31 GG, so I have three questions: 1. As I lack any other sort of an anvil aside from the GG, am I screwing myself over or can they be a very grindy anvil? I have yet to use them and my buddy never really used tehm when he used to play. 2. Due to them being an anvil/hammer, should I rank them up in 5-6 wide or maximize damage with a horde formation? 3. Do I need to drop stuff to make this anvil/hammer bigger (closer to 40 I would guess). This would probably entail dropping a wizard lvl and maybe the necrotech. The dudes are already hitting on 2/3's for most stuff, but that reroll could make for a nice first round of punishment.

Thank you for any and all advice!

Nicreap
12-02-2015, 19:28
How do you have the flaming banner on the skeleton archers? They can't take magical standards, and buying a bsb just to give them isn't the best use of points. Put the flaming on the chariots, because they can take a standard, then you get 8 flaming bow shots, and flamign impact hits.

For the graveguard, if they are an anvil with Handweapon and shield take them 5 wide, if they have Greatweapons and are meant to be more of a hammer, I believe the concensus is take them 7 wide, then if you are in a combat where you won't get steam rolled you reform to 10 wide. That way if for some reason a unit that absolutely obliterates Tomb guard shows up you are reducing the frontage presented.

kikibobo
12-02-2015, 19:37
How do you have the flaming banner on the skeleton archers? They can't take magical standards, and buying a bsb just to give them isn't the best use of points. Put the flaming on the chariots, because they can take a standard, then you get 8 flaming bow shots, and flamign impact hits.

For the graveguard, if they are an anvil with Handweapon and shield take them 5 wide, if they have Greatweapons and are meant to be more of a hammer, I believe the concensus is take them 7 wide, then if you are in a combat where you won't get steam rolled you reform to 10 wide. That way if for some reason a unit that absolutely obliterates Tomb guard shows up you are reducing the frontage presented.

Opps! good call. I am coming from Daemons where pretty much everything seems to be able to take magic banners (although they have none of their own lol). Ok that is an easy fix and makes more sense.

Thanks for the grave guard advice. That makes a lot of sense. Horde formation seemed very risky to me in general with these guys, even with rez ability, so 5 for anvil and 7 for hammer (unless there is an easy mark) makes sense

Thanks!

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
13-02-2015, 23:59
When using crypt horrors as an anvil, how big would they need to be effective, generally? I would try to keep my necro/liche close by for buffs and healing. I feel like 6 is too few, even if I take a block or two of skelies or zombies to assist, but I have heard 12 thrown out before and think that is a little too much.

Really depends on how many IoNs you're hitting them with. I would say 8 is minimum size. I've run 6 and it wasn't very useful save for catching cannonballs and occasionally eating a charge.


So once I have my crypt horror block or some skelies/zombies as my anvil, I am trying to decide how to take a unit of black knights. I have been putting 1-2 vampire lords with the unit, standard and champ, and banner of barrows, and running 13-14, but if I drop that down to 8-9, will they lose too much viability as a hammer. Most of the time, the vamp(s) is/are lvl 2 which means they have 3 wounds coming back if I pull off an invoc.

If you're trying to fit in BK then use skeleton warriors as your block. Two units of 40 with FC plus 4 units of direwolves is my ideal core.

Unit needs a WK with the nightshroud in it as well to knock strength bonuses off of anything hitting them.


Finally, the list I am trying tonight has the GG bus going on with necrotech, tomb prince, and vampire blender lord (lvl 2 atm). In core, I have 20 skelie archers with flaming banner, 4 chariots, and 3x5 dire wolves (A core combo I am playing with). In rare, I am either going to take CoS + SSC or a terrorgeist. And I have a lvl 4 necro/liche (allotted 10 extra points for whichever I want to take). This list currently has 31 GG, so I have three questions: 1. As I lack any other sort of an anvil aside from the GG, am I screwing myself over or can they be a very grindy anvil? I have yet to use them and my buddy never really used tehm when he used to play. 2. Due to them being an anvil/hammer, should I rank them up in 5-6 wide or maximize damage with a horde formation? 3. Do I need to drop stuff to make this anvil/hammer bigger (closer to 40 I would guess). This would probably entail dropping a wizard lvl and maybe the necrotech. The dudes are already hitting on 2/3's for most stuff, but that reroll could make for a nice first round of punishment.

Thank you for any and all advice!

Take a casket, as you'll need some reach with that M4 grave guard brick.

31 GG is too small. I feel anemic below 32-34. Run them 7-wide with a WK with Nightshroud in the front, and great weapons. Skeletons work fine as an anvil for the GG, though they pair well with crypt horrors. Necrotect is a lot of points for one round of hatred, and you can get rerolls by having the VL cast Vanhels.

I'd also say drop the level 4 and put it on the vampire lord. Yeah it's a lot of eggs in one basket, but it saves you 100 points. Then run a level 1-2 scroll caddy in a little 10-man TK skittle bunker with a champ and call it a day.

malisteen
14-02-2015, 13:57
Don't put banner of the barrows on black knights. They don't have enough attacks to make it worthwhile, especially if you're eating a couple slots of the front rank for vampire characters who don't benefit. Banner of swiftness is the better option there. Or razor standard.

-----------------

Local store's End Times themed Escalation League is about to hit 2k points, and I've just gotta run Nagash. Problem is, at 2k I can only take two of the following three essential Nagash support options:

- Casket
- Heirotitan
- Crypt Horrors

Since the most threatening opponents are Skaven at the moment, and their cannons don't really do the bounce thing anyway, I'm inclined to drop the crypt horrors from the starting list (and just try to summon them in game), but I'm not sure. Current list looks like:

Nagash
Level 2 Necro (no items)

20 TK archers w/ full command
2x 40 zombies w/ banner
2x 5 wolves w/ champ

2x 1 spirit host
Heirotitan
Casket


Available to Summon:
40 skeleton warriors, spears & cmd
28 Great Weapon Grave Guard w/ cmd
28 ghouls w/ champ
4 wraiths plus a banshee
8 crypt horrors with champ
10 black knights, full command
4 morghast archai
1 Terrorgheist
1 Mortis Engine
assorted characters on foot (necros, wight kings, vampires, king/prince, krell)


Should I drop the support necro and either the casket or titan in order to fit some crypt horror cannonball catchers? Any other changes you would recommend for a min size nagash army? Given my summoning pool is decent, but not optimal, how should I split up the spells on Nagash?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
14-02-2015, 22:02
Don't put banner of the barrows on black knights. They don't have enough attacks to make it worthwhile, especially if you're eating a couple slots of the front rank for vampire characters who don't benefit. Banner of swiftness is the better option there. Or razor standard.

-----------------

Local store's End Times themed Escalation League is about to hit 2k points, and I've just gotta run Nagash. Problem is, at 2k I can only take two of the following three essential Nagash support options:

- Casket
- Heirotitan
- Crypt Horrors

Since the most threatening opponents are Skaven at the moment, and their cannons don't really do the bounce thing anyway, I'm inclined to drop the crypt horrors from the starting list (and just try to summon them in game), but I'm not sure. Current list looks like:

Nagash
Level 2 Necro (no items)

20 TK archers w/ full command
2x 40 zombies w/ banner
2x 5 wolves w/ champ

2x 1 spirit host
Heirotitan
Casket


Available to Summon:
40 skeleton warriors, spears & cmd
28 Great Weapon Grave Guard w/ cmd
28 ghouls w/ champ
4 wraiths plus a banshee
8 crypt horrors with champ
10 black knights, full command
4 morghast archai
1 Terrorgheist
1 Mortis Engine
assorted characters on foot (necros, wight kings, vampires, king/prince, krell)


Should I drop the support necro and either the casket or titan in order to fit some crypt horror cannonball catchers? Any other changes you would recommend for a min size nagash army? Given my summoning pool is decent, but not optimal, how should I split up the spells on Nagash?

Drop the level 2 to a level 1 with a scroll or the forbidden rod. I'd try and squeeze some more points for another unit of dogs as well.

Rare is fine. You went nagash casting spells more than you need something catching cannons. If you want crypt horrors then make it your first cast

malisteen
15-02-2015, 01:00
how about:

Nagash
Necro lv1 w/ scroll

13 archers w/ banner & musician
2x 40 zombies w/ banner
4x 5 wolves w/ nothing

2x 1 spirit host
Heirotitan
Casket

Also, suggestions on spell split on nagash? I was leaning 6 undeath 2 vamps, or maybe 4 and 4, but death is tempting too...

Nicreap
15-02-2015, 03:09
I'd say that is a good way to go, the vampires is there to heal you, and the undeath is so nagash can do his thing. You don't really need Death, if you are facing skaven or any other army who death is especially effective against you can summon a level 4 necromancer to pick up death. With Nagash you WANT him to be summoning, and not dying, undeath speaks for itself, and Vampires gives you the two heals.

kikibobo
16-02-2015, 15:24
Really depends on how many IoNs you're hitting them with. I would say 8 is minimum size. I've run 6 and it wasn't very useful save for catching cannonballs and occasionally eating a charge.



If you're trying to fit in BK then use skeleton warriors as your block. Two units of 40 with FC plus 4 units of direwolves is my ideal core.

Unit needs a WK with the nightshroud in it as well to knock strength bonuses off of anything hitting them.



Take a casket, as you'll need some reach with that M4 grave guard brick.

31 GG is too small. I feel anemic below 32-34. Run them 7-wide with a WK with Nightshroud in the front, and great weapons. Skeletons work fine as an anvil for the GG, though they pair well with crypt horrors. Necrotect is a lot of points for one round of hatred, and you can get rerolls by having the VL cast Vanhels.

I'd also say drop the level 4 and put it on the vampire lord. Yeah it's a lot of eggs in one basket, but it saves you 100 points. Then run a level 1-2 scroll caddy in a little 10-man TK skittle bunker with a champ and call it a day.

I got your advice a smidgeon too late, but I will use it for my next game.

I ran out of time to rework the GG into a larger unit and/or reform it into more of a bus. The unit turned into a glass cannon that got destroyed by a lucky charge round from my opponent. I formed in a way that was going to sandwich his witch elf horde between the GG and my chariots on my turn, but he got a unit of wild riders in combat by like literally a millimeter as I had some zombies that I raised blocking the path. This forced me to close the gap which brought my too long horde into the path of his witch elves after they overran my direwolves which were going to redirect them so I had flanks on his elves, so I got charged by both as well as an improbable combat win and overrun from a frost phoenix... yay I dont think there is much that can take a triple charge like that. It was a bit of luck on his part but oh well.

I took a terrorgheist instead of the CoS and SSC. I have not tried a terrogheist and wanted to see him in action, but unfortunately he performed less than adequate. He screamed an injured frost phoenix but rolled well below average and only caused a single wound. The next turn, he got one shoted... lame. For future games, I think having my vamp as the lvl 4 and just taking a scroll caddy would be best and save me some points to buff up the GG to nearly 40. I might also go with the CoS + SSC combo instead of the terrorgheist for more deployment leverage and ranged pressure while the chariots, dire wolves, and GG setup for combat

I also agree that for my grave horror lists, 8-9 is probably best

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
17-02-2015, 02:51
I got your advice a smidgeon too late, but I will use it for my next game.

I ran out of time to rework the GG into a larger unit and/or reform it into more of a bus. The unit turned into a glass cannon that got destroyed by a lucky charge round from my opponent. I formed in a way that was going to sandwich his witch elf horde between the GG and my chariots on my turn, but he got a unit of wild riders in combat by like literally a millimeter as I had some zombies that I raised blocking the path. This forced me to close the gap which brought my too long horde into the path of his witch elves after they overran my direwolves which were going to redirect them so I had flanks on his elves, so I got charged by both as well as an improbable combat win and overrun from a frost phoenix... yay I dont think there is much that can take a triple charge like that. It was a bit of luck on his part but oh well.

I took a terrorgheist instead of the CoS and SSC. I have not tried a terrogheist and wanted to see him in action, but unfortunately he performed less than adequate. He screamed an injured frost phoenix but rolled well below average and only caused a single wound. The next turn, he got one shoted... lame. For future games, I think having my vamp as the lvl 4 and just taking a scroll caddy would be best and save me some points to buff up the GG to nearly 40. I might also go with the CoS + SSC combo instead of the terrorgheist for more deployment leverage and ranged pressure while the chariots, dire wolves, and GG setup for combat

I also agree that for my grave horror lists, 8-9 is probably best

Sounds about right. VC is a finesse army, unlike most other horde armies. Unstable makes us very fragile against certain kinds of pressure, and you need to be intimately aware with what each of your units can or cannot do as a bad matchup can blow your expensive bricks up in a round if you're not careful.

Re: terrorgheists, they fall into roughly the same category in the casket, in that their bark is far nastier than their bite. Yeah you'll roll boxcars sometimes and scream an entire unit of chaos knights plus lord off the board in a single turn. But then he'll go a whole game where he does nothing. However pretty much everyone has a horror story about a TG getting behind their lines and screaming their entire army off the board, so people tend to fixate on them. If you're clever you can use that to influence how your opponent behaves during the game.

For instance, I played against a Dwarf player who had my vargheists barrelling down on him. They had an easy charge into one machine, an overrun into another, then were poisoned to hit a unit in the back at roughly the same time as my VL and his GG brick would cut themselves free from the combat they were facing.

What he SHOULD have done was put both the cannon and the organ gun into my vargheists and whittled them down to where his T4 stubborn warmachine crew would stall them. Instead he shot both at the terrorgheist, knocking it from 5 wounds to 1. Vargheists performed as anticipated, and I ended up beating him 20-0.

The biggest trick to using them is to be conservative. People will say "you need them screaming at things to earn back their points," but it's much more important to keep them ALIVE long enough to actually do that. This means they need to be protected behind your army until such time as they can fly up out of charge arcs. If that means they eat another round of shooting then they eat another round of shooting.


Sounds like you're on the right track, though. Good luck! VC can be a cruel mistress at times, but when the army works as intended it's a very satisfying experience.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
17-02-2015, 21:48
how about:

Nagash
Necro lv1 w/ scroll

13 archers w/ banner & musician
2x 40 zombies w/ banner
4x 5 wolves w/ nothing

2x 1 spirit host
Heirotitan
Casket

Also, suggestions on spell split on nagash? I was leaning 6 undeath 2 vamps, or maybe 4 and 4, but death is tempting too...

Hmmm. In retrospect I'm thinking that dropping those 4 units of dogs for 2 units of horse archers might be better. More expensive, but blocks vanguards and doesn't count for drops. You want to be going first with Nagash, so that gives you a bit of an edge. More chaff is always nice, though. You'd have to test it out.

Otherwise looking good. Very solid list.

Re: the spell split, I'd probably go 4-5 on undeath, 2-4 on Vampires, and 1-2 on Light/Shadow/Death depending on my opponent. You need spells on Undeath for Nagash to earn his points back raising stuff up (a good 400 points minimum of his cost is that 3x raising ability). However Vampires has great synergy with the army generally, and is necessary to keep the big guy at full wounds against armies with lots of ranged potential.

The other lores are more situational. Death spells are great against someone like OnG/Skaven/Ogres with big dependence on characters and low LD/defenses. Snipe out a skaven BSB or fellblade character and you're doing good. Miasma is great against all sorts of armies, and can really slow down something like a big witch elf block that you don't want advancing at your lines 10" a turn. Light is great against elves, who you want as many magic missiles against as possible.

malisteen
20-02-2015, 04:15
Horse archers are one unit I do not have access to, as I have not yet come up with an acceptable method for modeling them yet. I don't like tk skittle/guard proportions, and have been avoiding those models (my archers are vc hand wep skittles w/ high elf sea guard mow & quivver bits glued to their backs.

I am interested in running the horse archers, any modeling suggestions to make more aesthetically palatable alternatives would be appreciated.

Ahnarras
20-02-2015, 05:58
Maybe a base of hexwraith, and keep using bow from sea guard to keep the aesthetic with foot archers?

malisteen
20-02-2015, 10:35
That's kind of what I've been thinking, although it would require cutting off arms and re-sculpting sleeves around the skeleton hand weapon arm replacements, something I can certainly do, but have not had the motivation for yet.

And of course, you're right, I do want to go first with Nagash. I'm too used to regular VC strategy, where seeing your opponent's deployment before committing is a bigger deal, and a turn two start less of a disadvantage - heck it can even be preferable sometimes - so it hadn't even occurred to me that with Nagash I had a real stake in going first. Actually, considering that, I'm starting to rethink even the spirit hosts. They're probably good enough to be worth the drops, though.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
20-02-2015, 17:08
Horse archers are one unit I do not have access to, as I have not yet come up with an acceptable method for modeling them yet. I don't like tk skittle/guard proportions, and have been avoiding those models (my archers are vc hand wep skittles w/ high elf sea guard mow & quivver bits glued to their backs.

I am interested in running the horse archers, any modeling suggestions to make more aesthetically palatable alternatives would be appreciated.
Based on a conversion I saw on Khemri, I turned mine into skeleton centaur archers. The proportions look a lot better that way.

If you're into conversions though you could probably convert VC skeletons into horse riders. I did it with tomb guard and it looks wicked.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
20-02-2015, 17:11
That's kind of what I've been thinking, although it would require cutting off arms and re-sculpting sleeves around the skeleton hand weapon arm replacements, something I can certainly do, but have not had the motivation for yet.

And of course, you're right, I do want to go first with Nagash. I'm too used to regular VC strategy, where seeing your opponent's deployment before committing is a bigger deal, and a turn two start less of a disadvantage - heck it can even be preferable sometimes - so it hadn't even occurred to me that with Nagash I had a real stake in going first. Actually, considering that, I'm starting to rethink even the spirit hosts. They're probably good enough to be worth the drops, though.
Id still put a host or two on the table. You definitely want a whack of them for raising though.

I'm wondering how good a Nagash light council would be. Has anyone tried it?

Ahnarras
20-02-2015, 17:38
I'm not sure what would Nagash bring to a light council that a standard lvl 4 wouldn't do for a couple hundred few point. If you want good chance to have a banishment, you will either have to invest lot of spell in Light (and you pay 1k for Nagash because he is good with Undeath, not light), or to pay the light council. With Nagash, that's a lot of point in caster and leave little for units. You will really have to pass a lot of summoning spell early to compensate.
I don't say it's not possible, it just seems risky.

malisteen
21-02-2015, 12:00
Yeah, nagash needs lou investment to justify his points, and lov to stay awake. Unless you're playing end times magic, I just don't see him having enough spells after that to invest heavily in death, light, or nehek, beyond maybe a sig or two. And if you are playing end times magic, naggy's just one undispelled unmaking or nickit away from not knowing any spells at all.

For a light council, I just don't see any way for nagash to out-perform a pair of level fours, or even one lv4 and a couple lv 2s.

White_13oy
06-03-2015, 15:22
Hey, quick question. With undead legions, can TK characters heal with LoV?

malisteen
07-03-2015, 11:44
With the lore attribute? Yes. Not with the regular spell effect of invocation, though, just the one extra wound from the attribute.

malisteen
14-03-2015, 13:36
So... any thoughts on the Host of Death battle scroll?

Nagash
Arkhan
Krell

1x Morghast Archai
1x Morghasts (doesn't specify, but implied Harbingers)
1x Grave Guard
1x Black Knights

Arkhan gains +3 to cast as long as Nagash is alive
The Grave Guard and Black Knights are WS5 and -2 crumble, which stacks with other mods.


Positives:
- Arkhan's bonus does much to overcome the natural antisynergy of fielding him with Nagash (after all, every summuning spell you cast at x2 with arkhan you didn't cast at x3 with naggy)

- The Guard and Knights, with a little invo support, are actually quite hard, thanks to the WS and crumble buffs. Keep them near Nagash and at least one of the Morghast units, and they're -5 to crumble, and still keep their speedy invo recovery.

Negatives:
- Krell is dead weight. I always wanted a reason to field him, but was hoping for more of a reason than as a tax.

- Nagash and Arkhan is a lot of points in two big characters that even with the boost to Arkhan's casting value are still somewhat redundant when fielded in the same list.

- The units, while not bad, are not exactly points efficient.

- Seriously, this is an expensive formation. Rough guestimate puts them above 2300 points even with minimum unit sizes and no upgrades on the units included, and it lacks all sorts of supporting units that the formation wants (mounted characters to add hitting power to the black knights, standard titan, casket, and horror wall for nagash, etc). Altogether, you probably won't even be able to really think about fielding the Host of Death below 3000 points.

______________________________________________

Overall, I kind of like it, though it's not nearly as impressive as some of the other formations in the book, and certainly not as powerful as just building the usual Nagash list (Nagash, titan, casket, horror wall, horse archers, maybe some flanking tarpits and an infantry archer bunker w/ support casters if you've got spare points). So yeah, I wouldn't really call the Host of Death good in a competitive sense, but I've been looking for an excuse to field Nagash and Arkhan together, and to field Krell at all, so I'll definitely be giving it a try.

Anyone else have some thoughts on it?

Mallory
12-04-2015, 15:22
I've had a lot of success recently with this list;


Mannfred, Mortarch of Night

Necromancer carrying the Dispel Scroll

Hierotitan

Casket of Souls

Black Coach

20 Skeleton Archers

20 Skeleton Archers

6 Skeleton Chariots

5 Skeleton Horse Archers

2 Screaming Skull Catapults

5 Hexwraiths with a Hellwraith.

~2 500

The army depends upon massive magic phases; which are relatively easy to achieve with Mannfred, the Casket and the Hierotitan; and is much more effective when used under the Khaine rules.

The Black Coach reaches full upgrades in Turn 1 or 2 as the average power dice generation with the list has been 18-25 dice when Mannfred is unengaged.

Combat often hinges on charging with the full chariot unit into a high priority enemy unit, and coordinating support from the Coach or the Hexwraiths.

I have many units to summon with Undeath; including 15 more Hexwraiths. Ordinarily when I am able to bring on the pair of Morghast Archai behind the enemy the game is won.

The sole weakness of this list is the lack of anchoring infantry units to act as 'tarpits'. These can be summoned; but often I prefer to call in units that are capable of destroying the enemy; using the mobility of the army's central units to compensate for the lack of chaff and 'tarpits' and get favourable combats.

Mannfred is incredibly powerful and easily positioned out of harms way. The issue I have encountered with this list that has held it back from 2-4 turn victories and often meant that the enemy is not completely destroyed by the end of the game is it's difficulty in taking on 'Deathstar' lists.

Although I can outmaneuver such units, and destroy the rest of the army around it; tackling large, character laden units has been difficult.


I am 6-1 in games played; against Orcs and Goblins (w), Lizardmen (w), Another Undead Legions Force (l), Dark Elves (w), Warriors of Chaos (w), Dwarves (w), Dwarves (w).

I'm interested in hearing comments on similar approaches, using Mannfred etc.


Best,

Mallory

swordofglass
15-04-2015, 16:54
Sounds good, just wanted to comment that I find it strange that people are squaring off against normal armies with UL (and LoC and HotEK). I mean, I wouldn't expect to use Dwarfs and High Elves together vs a normal list, and if I did I wouldn't consider it very tactically appealing. Two armies together without needing to be two 'allied armies' is so obviously much more powerful than a single army that I can't see the appeal beyond 'narrative battles' or the occasional blowout (planning to do a huge Dwarfs vs LoC sometime just for the hell of it).
Anyway if you and/or opponents think otherwise then far be it from me to tell you you're wrong! Just strikes me as odd that's all.

malisteen
17-04-2015, 11:27
Narrative and end times games are all many of us play. In tournament scenes it's up to the organizer, and there happen to be many tournaments that allow it - though I agree with you that they shouldn't, especially in light of subsequent, far more abusive/abuseable end times lists - apart from Nagash himself the undead legions can be argued as closer to High Elves, Dark Elves, or Chaos Mortals in power than it is to HotEK or LotEC. Still, many tournaments do allow end times lists, so tactical discussions of them still seem relevant enough to justify a thread on the subject. At least until 9e's release.

As for Mannfred, he does look pretty boss. His flexibility in terms of magic dice generation or melee ability round to round in particular is impressive. I have not picked him up yet, but only because I don't yet have any vargheists. I feel having at least a couple units of three gheists spare for summoning is pretty key to getting the most out of him, as they're his best summoning option by a pretty wide margin and he definitely has the dice to push it, even if it's only the signature spell.

Mallory
22-04-2015, 12:10
Sounds good, just wanted to comment that I find it strange that people are squaring off against normal armies with UL (and LoC and HotEK). I mean, I wouldn't expect to use Dwarfs and High Elves together vs a normal list, and if I did I wouldn't consider it very tactically appealing. Two armies together without needing to be two 'allied armies' is so obviously much more powerful than a single army that I can't see the appeal beyond 'narrative battles' or the occasional blowout (planning to do a huge Dwarfs vs LoC sometime just for the hell of it).
Anyway if you and/or opponents think otherwise then far be it from me to tell you you're wrong! Just strikes me as odd that's all.

In my local store/meta people have really enjoyed seeing the new opportunities offered by the mixed lists in End Times; from both sides of the table.

I think the power of the End Times lists and characters is really secondary to the excitement most people have at new stuff and new ways of playing the same game.

My post was one for an UL Tactica; concerned with playing and winning games. But of course this sort of thing comes down to what your regular opponents are happy to face. I don't think the UL vs Generic Lists is inherently unbalanced; it just requires some different methods and ways of making decisions.

Best,

Mallory

malisteen
23-04-2015, 14:54
It really is a shame that we never got official human/human/dwarf or orc/ogre(/lizard?) end times lists.

Mallory
23-04-2015, 18:29
It really is a shame that we never got official human/human/dwarf or orc/ogre(/lizard?) end times lists.

It would have been great to see a supplement like that. The rules relating to marrying two or three armies together turned out to be pretty simple; even with Chaos. It's a shame they didn't go for it.

Mallory
23-04-2015, 18:31
An Undead Legions list might be in trouble up against Dwarves with Empire Light magic though.

Best,

Mallory