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Spiney Norman
02-09-2014, 15:50
Can high level Kandorak the harbinger be used to summon characters that have the monster troop type, or the chariot troop type?

I'm specifically thinking of whether Nagash can use the spell to summon a Mortarch (would require two tokens to reach the necessary points value).

Ahnarras
02-09-2014, 19:03
I would say no. They are character in the first place, who happens to also be of the monster troup type.

It could be weird said like that, but thinks about the signature spell: most character are of the infantry troup type. Wouldn't you think something is wrong if your opponent use the signature spell to summon a character?

Ramius4
03-09-2014, 03:08
I think the problem here comes down to the usual lack of thorough proof-reading by GW. So once again we have a RAI vs. RAW situation.

I know that my group would take the more likely route and play RAI on this one. It's fairly clear that the intent was to allow you to summon Infantry units with the one spell, while the other allows characters (which could be any troop type really). Otherwise, why bother to differentiate the spells in the first place?

decker_cky
03-09-2014, 03:43
It's very clear. Being a character doesn't take away your unit type. The signature spell can also be used to summon infantry characters.

furrie
03-09-2014, 05:23
RAW there is nothing stopping you. The only restriction listed by the summoning spells is that they have to have troop type X, nowhere does it say they can't have any other type.

Ramius4
03-09-2014, 06:18
It's very clear. Being a character doesn't take away your unit type. The signature spell can also be used to summon infantry characters.


RAW there is nothing stopping you. The only restriction listed by the summoning spells is that they have to have troop type X, nowhere does it say they can't have any other type.

Like I said, RAW is clear. But common sense (RAI) says otherwise (and it's hardly the first time GW neglected to think a bit harder before writing a rule). Obviously, that's not clear, but hey don't let your conscience stop you.

Spiney Norman
03-09-2014, 06:49
Like I said, RAW is clear. But common sense (RAI) says otherwise (and it's hardly the first time GW neglected to think a bit harder before writing a rule). Obviously, that's not clear, but hey don't let your conscience stop you.

I'm not so sure RAI does say otherwise, consider that Nagash has a 600pt allowance for summoning units from High level Kandorak, unless characters of that type are included there are no warmachines monsters or single chariots even in the same ball-park as that point total so giving such a high allowance would be completely pointless.

Ramius4
03-09-2014, 06:54
I'm not so sure RAI does say otherwise, consider that Nagash has a 600pt allowance for summoning units from High level Kandorak, unless characters of that type are included there are no warmachines monsters or single chariots even in the same ball-park as that point total so giving such a high allowance would be completely pointless.

Which spell are we discussing? And what does it say you can summon? Sorry, I'm only vaguely familiar with them at this point, having only read them once.

I was under the impression that you were asking if the one that specifies Infantry as the summoned unit, could summon a character. While the point I was getting at is the other spell (name?) already allows you to summon characters, and does not specify what unit type the character has to be.

I took it to mean that the one able to summon characters, could be a character of any troop type. While the Infantry spell, could just be units of rank and file infantry.

Mr_Rose
03-09-2014, 09:09
@Ramius4 Kandorak – The Harbinger summons a 65 point character, no other type specified.

Spiney Norman
03-09-2014, 09:55
Which spell are we discussing? And what does it say you can summon? Sorry, I'm only vaguely familiar with them at this point, having only read them once.

I was under the impression that you were asking if the one that specifies Infantry as the summoned unit, could summon a character. While the point I was getting at is the other spell (name?) already allows you to summon characters, and does not specify what unit type the character has to be.

I took it to mean that the one able to summon characters, could be a character of any troop type. While the Infantry spell, could just be units of rank and file infantry.

Kandorak: The Harbinger spell has two power levels

At the basic level it summons a character of up to 65pts
At the boosted level it summons a monster, warmachine or single chariot of up to 200pts

My question was, can the boosted version be used to summon a monster who is also a character (e.g. A Mortarch on dread abyssal). I think it was Decker who mentioned Ryze: the grave call.

Clearly using the basic version of the spell to summon a Mortarch on dread abyssal is not really an option, even Nagash would require 16 tokens to reach the required points limit.

Ramius4
03-09-2014, 20:37
Kandorak: The Harbinger spell has two power levels

At the basic level it summons a character of up to 65pts
At the boosted level it summons a monster, warmachine or single chariot of up to 200pts

My question was, can the boosted version be used to summon a monster who is also a character (e.g. A Mortarch on dread abyssal). I think it was Decker who mentioned Ryze: the grave call.

Clearly using the basic version of the spell to summon a Mortarch on dread abyssal is not really an option, even Nagash would require 16 tokens to reach the required points limit.

Ah, I see. I had misunderstood the question.

I think the better question is this. Is 'character' a troop type? Because I don't believe it is. I think it's more of a sub-type that can be applied to any troop type. (IIRC the character rules aren't even in the troop type section)

And if that's true, the basic version could summon any character, or any type. And the boosted version should be able to summon any of those troop types, which may also be a character.

Didn't the White Dwarf battle report have Nagash summoning a Mortarch?

Spiney Norman
03-09-2014, 21:53
Didn't the White Dwarf battle report have Nagash summoning a Mortarch?

Yes, but I think that was Krell, which Nagash could achieve with basic harbinger and two tokens.

Besides that batrep was a white dwarf classic, they don't burden themselves with anything so mundane as the rules of the game when playing them. For instance the tomb king army apparently featured a tomb prince with the army battle standard, which unfortunately is as legal as a tomb prince on a Necroserpent...

Blkc57
04-09-2014, 06:43
Besides that batrep was a white dwarf classic, they don't burden themselves with anything so mundane as the rules of the game when playing them. For instance the tomb king army apparently featured a tomb prince with the army battle standard, which unfortunately is as legal as a tomb prince on a Necroserpent...

This is why I love them White Dwarfs, always good for some comedy gold.

Immortus
05-09-2014, 14:09
Can high level Kandorak the harbinger be used to summon characters that have the monster troop type, or the chariot troop type?

I'm specifically thinking of whether Nagash can use the spell to summon a Mortarch (would require two tokens to reach the necessary points value).


I would say yes, even though that means he could summon Arkhan, another powerful summoner. I have the book in front of me, he is a "monster (special character)". The spell quotes troop type, so you summon that troop type.

To those hung up on the "character" part of Kandorak and extrapolating to Ryze (signature spell for summoning infantry) and what ryze can achieve.
The way i see it Kandorak and Ryze could both summon a vampire or Tomb Prince. Ryze however would be harder to do and result in a less point value vampire/tomb prince however you opponent doesn't then know you plan on summoning character infantry. i.e. more likely to let it pass if they think only zombies are coming.

However only Kandorak (realistically) is going to summon a pimped out Vampire/tomb prince, maybe even with a mount/chariot. The roll is easier, the point allowance is higher but you're using "that spell" and your opponent will think twice about letting it through if he thinks a tomb prince is about to be raised and join a unit of tomb guard and up their WS.

just my two cent, I'm sure GW will confirm things eventually


edit: All VC and TK "Characters" are infantry so there is obvious overlap on these spells i think it was intentional balancing =]

zoltan
11-09-2014, 03:04
except if you say the (character) part is meaningless so is the character summon part of the character/monster summon.

Ryze allows infantry of 50 or 100, so allows characters of higher points value than the specific character summoning spell.

Further since there is nothing that lists character as anything other than type (character) then the character summon spell can actually summon nothing even if you wanted to, as nothing has the type character using your arguments.