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Dongilles
03-09-2014, 07:46
Hello all,

I have a question about the equipment the summoned units have using the Lore of Undeath. I don't have the book yet so I don't know if this is discribed in the rules.

With the lore of undeath you can summon a unit worth X points. Lets say I summon 10 Grave Guards standard equipment, but you can also summon 8 Grave Guards with great weapons. This is how I read it.

If this is true then the following is also possible. Nagash can summon a character worth 195 point (65 * 3).
So he could summon a Vampire with Red Fury or even better an extra scroll caddy a Necromancer with the Dispel Scroll. So with the new Lore you could potentially have a dispel scroll every turn.

Is this possible?

furrie
03-09-2014, 08:09
I think the summoned units still have to follow the normal rules, so only one of each magic item in your army. So an extra scroll each turn won't happen.

Dongilles
03-09-2014, 08:23
True but you can use it in your opponents turn and then in your own turn summon a new scroll caddy.

Spiney Norman
03-09-2014, 10:14
True but you can use it in your opponents turn and then in your own turn summon a new scroll caddy.

My view would be that no magic items can be repeated, including one-use items that have already been used.

thesoundofmusica
03-09-2014, 14:18
My view would be that no magic items can be repeated, including one-use items that have already been used.

This is correct.

(Edit: 65x3 is 195)

furrie
03-09-2014, 18:29
True but you can use it in your opponents turn and then in your own turn summon a new scroll caddy.
I can't find any rules about magic items disappearing when used(even for the one use only). If however your dispell scroll gets destroyed, you could summon a scroll cady.

Spiney Norman
03-09-2014, 18:44
I can't find any rules about magic items disappearing when used(even for the one use only). If however your dispell scroll gets destroyed, you could summon a scroll cady.

I'd be uncomfortable with that even, basically if an item appears on your army list you cannot summon another character with the same item, regardless of whether it has been used, destroyed or stuffed down a giant's pants.

FatTrucker
03-09-2014, 20:05
Rule is one of any given item per army. Raising new units doesn't change that in any way. If you've already allocated an item from the BRB or AB you can't then allocate another one to a summoned unit. Unless there's a specific exception in the Lore of Undeath that states you can ignore rules for magic items and duplicate as many of any magic item as you like when using summon spells.
An item being used or destroyed during a battle doesn't mean another one suddenly becomes available. One, per army, per game.

Dongilles
04-09-2014, 09:29
Thanks for clearing it up for me.

But it would be possible to equip an magic item that isnt in my armylist (for one time)

furrie
04-09-2014, 10:22
Thanks for clearing it up for me.

But it would be possible to equip an magic item that isnt in my armylist (for one time)

Unless the spells says otherwise, you can pick magic items.

Smogg
04-09-2014, 13:05
I don't know. It does not seem that straight forward to me.
Summoning new units seems to break several of the restrctions that apply during army creations:
- Max point value or army
- Percentage limits
- Max number of dublicate units.

I guess my point is, there is bound to be some discussions:
Player A:"Im summoning this hero with a dispel scroll"
Player B:"Rules say you may only include 1 dispel scroll in your army and you already used one"
Player A:"Rules say you may have max 3 units of black knights, but you just summoned a 4th unit last turn"
Player B:"But magic items are different..."

Don't get me wrong, I do feel you should only be able to ever use 1 dispel, im just pointing out that the rules are not very clear on if army build restrictions apply when summoning new units during the game.

thesoundofmusica
04-09-2014, 13:43
I don't know. It does not seem that straight forward to me.
Summoning new units seems to break several of the restrctions that apply during army creations:
- Max point value or army
- Percentage limits
- Max number of dublicate units.

I guess my point is, there is bound to be some discussions:
Player A:"Im summoning this hero with a dispel scroll"
Player B:"Rules say you may only include 1 dispel scroll in your army and you already used one"
Player A:"Rules say you may have max 3 units of black knights, but you just summoned a 4th unit last turn"
Player B:"But magic items are different..."

Don't get me wrong, I do feel you should only be able to ever use 1 dispel, im just pointing out that the rules are not very clear on if army build restrictions apply when summoning new units during the game.



But magic items ARE different. They are not the same as units.

Katastrophe
04-09-2014, 13:45
exceeding the normal limits has never been discouraged prior and you could always get around the original build restrictions through summoning. Now with the new spells allowing the summoning of characters, I can see where there may be real issues of summoning an additional spellcaster that can do additional summoning. Will be interesting to see how that all works out.

Not so sure that we can just categorically say that "magic items are different therefore you cannot summon more if that character can take them". Would I think that should be curbed, absolutely, but I cannot see where it is precluded in the rules.

olderplayer
04-09-2014, 16:01
Rules about repeating magic items are pretty clear, there can be only one in an army unless the magic item is an exception to the unique rule (even if previously used).

AS to the original question, I feel that the points value approach of the new summoning spells is interesting and prevents potentially the abuses that can occur when summoning or recovering wounds relates to wounds on models and not points values. In that context, it would seem logical that, as long as one summons a unit with no more than the number of points allowed per the spell plus Raise the Dead counters, one could spend those points as desired on the models summoned as long as allowed in the army book. Grave Guard can therefore be summoned with or without great weapons. Black knights can be summoned with or without barding or lances. Also, the Raise the Dead counters "increase the points worth of models summoned" and the summoning rules say explicitly "Summoned units can be upgraded to include any options listed in their army list entries, but must adhere to their minimum unit sizes as normal." Broadly read, since the option to take a magic banner or magic item is included in the options listed for a model or unit, then those options can be taken.

The minimum unit size restriction is not something I'vre seen previously mentioned. This means you cannot summon a unit of grave guard with the base signature spell (Ryze-The Grave Call) with only up to 50 points of models allowed or even with the boosted version of that spell to summon an infantry unit with only up to 100 points allowed given the 10 minimum model size of a grave guard unit unless one had and spent at least one Raise the Dead counter after successfully casting the spell to get to 110 points limit. Similarly, one cannot raise a unit of skeleton archers (TK) with the base signature spell unless one has a used at least one Raise the Dead counter after successfully casting the spell to create a unit of 10 archers. Another example of this is when casting the number 6 spell and intending (not sure it is a great idea but anyway) to place three skeleton chariots in a unit on the table one would have to have and spend two raise the dead counters to place the unit or would have to place a different unit given the base points cost of a skeleton chariot and the minimum unit size of 3+.

This suggests that someone playing this lore should plan ahead and calculate what units can and cannot be summoned reliably with the spells given and the Raise the Dead counters available. The base number 4 abyssal swarm spell, for example, is almost ideal for a unit of 3 carrion modelos, 2 bat swarms, or 4 fell bats, but unless one has a Raise the Dead counter does not allow for a minimum size unit of 2 Tomb Swarms. One can summon a single spirit host with the spell but leaves a lot of points out when casting the spell. The boosted signature spell to create monstrous infantry, for example, works well for 3 Ushtabi, 3 Vargheists, 3 Crypt horrors with one upgraded to a chempion or 4 Crypt Horrors if one has a single Raise to Dead counter.

As for restrictions on duplicating units summoned beyond the limits in the army list construction rules, doesn't that depend on how one regards summoned units? They technically are not in the army list at the beginning of the game, so they skirt the restriction, but I could see people house ruling it. I think about it this way: suppose one plays a 2500 point battle and brings exactly 2500 points of models in a VC list and then casts Raise Dead to place a new zombie unit on the table and then casts Invocation and raises a bunch of zombies to add to zombie units and perhaps some skeletons to add, with Master of the Dead, to skeleton units. At that moment, the army has more than 2500 points of models on the table but I don't think anyone would say that is illegal. It seems pretty clear that the army list construction rules apply to the army list at the start of the game and not thereafter; otherwise, under RAW, one would autolose if one lost the general of the army (which occurs in chess and some other war games, but not in WHFB).

Spiney Norman
05-09-2014, 07:06
I don't know. It does not seem that straight forward to me.
Summoning new units seems to break several of the restrctions that apply during army creations:
- Max point value or army
- Percentage limits
- Max number of dublicate units.

I guess my point is, there is bound to be some discussions:
Player A:"Im summoning this hero with a dispel scroll"
Player B:"Rules say you may only include 1 dispel scroll in your army and you already used one"
Player A:"Rules say you may have max 3 units of black knights, but you just summoned a 4th unit last turn"
Player B:"But magic items are different..."

Don't get me wrong, I do feel you should only be able to ever use 1 dispel, im just pointing out that the rules are not very clear on if army build restrictions apply when summoning new units during the game.

That's fairly easy, unit duplication limits are tied to the army construction process so they only apply when writing your list. The 'unique' rule for magic items applies throughout the game.

Smogg
05-09-2014, 07:59
Rules concerning dublicate special and rare units, dublicate spell and dublicate items has only ever been relevant during army creation so far, and none of these were written at a point where more units, spells or items would suddenly pop up during the battle. Prior to Nagash these rules were only used during amy creation therefore no one has given them more thought.
With Nagash these rules are suddenly challenged during the game. It should be simple to realize that there will be different interpritations on how this should be handled irrespective of which rule section you can find each restriction.

Some might feel this is clearly covered in the rules, leaving no room for discussion. (and we all love a good RAW discussion)

In my opinion the summoning rules should have adressed this issue in the first place.

olderplayer
05-09-2014, 14:37
Because the units summoned must be legal min number of models and yet still fit within the points limit, units summoned using the base signature spell are largely limited to zombies and skeleton warriors and, if one has a few Raise the Dead counters, skeleton archers unless one has a lot of Raise the Dead counters to spell. There is no limit on the number of units in an army from core.

One has long had the ability with Summon Creatures of the Night or Master of the Dead on a VC caster or with zombies to increase the sizes of certain units beyond the starting points values with Invocation of Nehek (both in the current and prior VC army book) and violate the army points limit in the BRB. [I can't find the old FAQs that address this and the newest FAQ of VC does not discuss this issue.] With the VC Lore spell Raise Dead (create a new unit of zombies or skeletons) one has also long (both in the currrent and in the prior VC army book) had the ability to summon a unit beyond the army points limit. In the prior VC army book, the spell Summon Undead Horde was ability to create a unit of 5D6 zombies (following the Raise Dead spell rules). Similarly, in the prior VC army book (7th edition), one could raise a number of Spirit Hosts with wounds equal to the wounds caused by the Wind of Undeath spell. No one ever raised these as issues that I can remember, and this issue has long been settled. Thus, long standing precedent and practice in the VC army books clearly suggests that the army size limit can be violated once the game begins.

You also have other examples like Dreaded 13th converting an opposing unit of infantry (smaller in size) into a Skaven Clanrat unit if the entire unit is destroyed or the ability of a Warriors of Chaos model with Eye of the Gods to upgraded to and become a Daemon Prince (which could cause the army to violate the Lord points allotment and the overall army points limits) or the new Daemons of Chaos book to summon a new core unit of 2D6+3 models upon a Winds of Magic roll of 12 or to convert an enemy wizard into a Herald upon a Winds of Magic roll of 11 and a failed LD test.

However, the "unique" rule for named characters and magic items (p. 500 of the BRB) is less clear on this issue. Can one use a summon spell and spend three Raise the Undead counters to raise a Lvl 1 Necromancer with a dispel scroll when casting successfully Kandorak-The Harbinger? The answer seems to be clearly yes if the army has not had and does not have a dispel scroll (even if used). The answer seems to be clearly no for the dispel scroll if a friendly model still is in play with a dispel scroll even if the scroll has been used. The answer is less clear if the characters with the dispel scroll or the dispel scroll has been removed from play at the time of the successful cast of the summoning spell.

FatTrucker
07-09-2014, 09:06
Magic items are deemed to be unique, so unless otherwise specified if one has already been bought, then you cannot raise another one.
Unless there is an FAQ that overrules the BRB, then the standard rules should apply meaning you cannot raise a duplicate magic item that's already in your army list, regardless of the status of the item or character that wields it.

Josfer
08-09-2014, 12:49
When you summon a character or a unit the normal equipment rules apply, don't they? If the normal equipment rules apply, you can't take a dispell scroll if one is already present in your army.
You can't equip your skeleton warriors with GWs all of a sudden, because the normal equipment rules apply and thus you can't duplicate magic items.

syrme
10-09-2014, 06:37
could Nagash raise a special chr? Presuming he has a couple of tokens of course.

furrie
10-09-2014, 07:16
could Nagash raise a special chr? Presuming he has a couple of tokens of course.
As long as the chr has the right unit type and isn't alreay in your army, why not

forseer of fates
10-09-2014, 10:55
Can you say summon Isabella from the vcs book thou?

furrie
10-09-2014, 12:06
Can you say summon Isabella from the vcs book thou?
she isn't part of the undead legion, so no