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CountUlrich
05-09-2014, 03:36
I am having fun slowly painting up my warriors of chaos as my next army, and trying to find what is the right build for me. I love the demon prince model, and have had fun painting it, but I'm now toying with actually going with a build without the cannon target. There aren't many WoC players in my area, so I really appreciate any feedback on this list:

Chaos Lord on demonic mount with barding, MoTzeentch, third eye, soul feeder, flaming breath, armor of destiny, crown of command, sword of striking, shield

Sorcerer on Disc, MoTzeentch level 2 with chaos familiar, ToP, Charmed shield
Exalted Hero, BSB, on barded steed, MoTzeentch ToE, ironcurse icon, burning body, shield
Exalted Hero, Mark of Khorne, Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield

22 Warriors of Chaos, Mark of Khorne, muso + standard, Standard of Discipline (Ex Hero goes here)
5 warhounds
5 warhounds
Chariot of Nurgle

5 Chaos Knights, ensorcelled weapons, muso + standard, war banner (BSB here)
Chimera Regen + Flaming Breath

3 Skullcrushers, full command, ensorcelled weapons


There is also a second version of it, and I appreciate input not just on the overall list, but on which is better if possible ...

Chaos Lord on demonic mount with barding, MoTzeentch, third eye, soul feeder, flaming breath, armor of destiny, crown of command, sword of striking, shield

Sorcerer on Disc, MoTzeentch level 2 with chaos familiar, ToP, Charmed shield
Exalted Hero, BSB, on barded steed, MoTzeentch ToE, ironcurse icon, burning body, shield

24 Warriors of Chaos, Mark of Khorne, full command, Standard of Discipline (Ex Hero goes here)
5 warhounds
5 warhounds
Chariot of Khorne

6 Chaos Knights, ensorcelled weapons, muso + standard, war banner (BSB here)
Chimera Regen + Flaming Breath

4 Skullcrushers, full command, ensorcelled weapons

Skallagoose
05-09-2014, 13:15
i like this list, and have a similar list myself. You play a more hero-hammer list then i do, which works very well.

The biggest flaw in your army, that i can see, is you only have a lvl 2 sorc. I have taken only a lvl 2 several times and it never seems to work out for me. Too many high comp armies take lvl 4s and it just adds so much to magic attempts/dispels. If you don't have too many magic based armies around you, then your fine.

I like the second list more, but i think you will have better luck with the first (being more heroes). I also would imagine you place your lord in with the knights, which would mean 6 guys wouldn't get full attacks (might not already if enemy is 20mm x 5, as we are 25mm).

I like Tz lords and heroes, i think they get the job done and have the survivability needed to take it to the next level- and the builds on your heroes are solid, and proven. All of them have a pretty good ward save which is just plain awesome. Cannons and the like will def have problems against your force

CountUlrich
08-09-2014, 16:11
Thanks for the feedback ... anyone else with some input or constructive criticism?

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Josfer
08-09-2014, 20:20
I don't like the slowness of M4.
Splitting the warriors in two blocks would help with maneuverability and number of attacks. They have I5 WS5 T4 4+, they'll get to hitting back with the front row intact if you field 12. And the front row is where the damage is.
Or just reduce the numbers and bring some horsemen and maybe another chariot into play to have more and faster units.
Why don't your warriors have a weapon? And if you didn't just forget to list them do you have 25% core?
Why no MoT on the knights?

Skallagoose
08-09-2014, 20:37
Oh- one more thing, i'd always have a fully command on the warrior unit, especially if you put the bsb in there. This is in case your enemy smacks something you don't want to challenge into the group. A lot of people (if not everyone) knows of the warrior's compulsory challenges and will use this to kill heroes and bsbs. another strategy is to tie up monstrous characters or killy characters with challenges.

Two examples of this;
I faced a daemon prince of nurgle with my warriors of tz. I had a sorcerer, bsb, and champion in the unit. I used all three of them to keep the 600 point block of warriors alive and prevent them from fleeing from combat.

another example is i was facing ogres once. I thought my bsb could take their leader but wasn't sure. Rather then risk it i put my champion up against him, did a wound, and then the next turn my exalted hero went against him- with the wound already on him, it was a MUCH easier fight.

MOMUS
10-09-2014, 17:23
I like the second list, but I would drop a crusher for a couple extra knights :)

Mannfred
12-09-2014, 21:11
Hi, weird list you have there actually, and honestly I don't think uve realised but models of different marks can't be in the same unit...

So u got a tzeentch bsb that can't join any unit, u have iron curse but no tzeentch unit to benefit...it's a mess....you have a chaos lord...whose on a daemonic steed also MoT and u got Juggers and knights...u might as well get a Daemon Prince for those points...

Like I think you honestly need to start over sorry...

Pointers for u nxt list:

If u want chaos lord with MoT go for a Disk lord, with a 3+ ward, enchanted shield, crown of command and a 15point magic Sword + breath weapon :)

Level 4 is highly recommended...if u don't like the, take unmarked...and unmarked character can join a unit that has a mark of chaos...

Your bsb, should have scaled body, helm of many eyes, dawn stone with halberd or flail or gw.

Float the iron curse icon into a level two scroll caddy.

Tzeentch warriors with hand weapon and shield for defence, khorne Warriors with halberds for attack, and Nurgle warriors with great weapon or halberds for all rounders...pick one or two and place a character with the respective mark in each. So ideally tzeentch warriors with level 2 iron curse icon. Nurgle/khorne with Bsb.

Do not take knights...two knights are more pricey than a jugger...do that maths...if that can't convince u....take the points of a chaos warrior w shield off from the knight and realise how many points ur paying for that horse...

Juggers are fine, but no more than 4. Don't add a character here...a 300 point unit does not need baby sitting...that's why it's a 300pt unit.

Warhounds are a must.

Chariots must be used in pairs...

Chimera is a must...

Hell cannon is a very recommended...

Repost something soon :)

Of course if ur not aiming for smthing competitive don't take all these on board. Just the ones u like...

mostlyharmless
12-09-2014, 21:21
I respectfully disagree with Mannfred. I've used chaos knights to great effect on many occasions in every list. They simply serve a different purpose to the Skullcrushers. I would drop the warbanner on them and give them the Banner of Eternal Flame for monster and regen critter hunting. That's what I run, and it's very useful, particularly when you give them Mark of Khorne. Of course, this build isn't for everyone, and I invite you to use at your own peril, as there are some downsides.

Mannfred
13-09-2014, 00:40
.....? What different purpose?

Mannfred
13-09-2014, 00:54
I suppose people either under estimate or over estimate knights...and therefore react poorly...could get some wins with that...

Bigman
14-09-2014, 10:22
Knights are actually coming back in mainly because comps generally comp:-

Flying
Hellcannons
Chimeras
DP
Disc lords

I actually like the list a lot...the level two is not an issue for me personally, although a scroll would be useful in this case.


I have fielded plenty of armies with just a level 2...heck even a level 1 fire with scroll...

That is also something to consider...a level 1 with fire is really useful to warriors, because it's a simple strategy.

Roll magic phase.
Six dice medium or large fireball.
Profit.


He can with some luck wipe out double his points worth, plus it gives you a range attack to eliminate re-directors.

Given the mobile nature of your army, it could be critical.

Even better if you make him level 2, give him the ruby ring on that mount...two fireballs plus one other spell.

Fun time!

mostlyharmless
16-09-2014, 21:08
.....? What different purpose?

Having a smaller frontage with comparable attacks, taking up special points as opposed to rare, as I mentioned above (hunting regen critters), being more maneuverable than monstrous cav. I could go on. Points cost and stat lines aren't the only thing to consider when you're deciding on a unit. Compared to other knights, chaos knights are great. Chaos knights and skullcrushers aren't in the same class. They do different things.

Josfer
16-09-2014, 22:53
Do not take knights...two knights are more pricey than a jugger...do that maths...if that can't convince u....take the points of a chaos warrior w shield off from the knight and realise how many points ur paying for that horse...
Have to disagree on that too. While I wouldn't take MoK knights over SCs, MoN knights are a super strong anvil. Most stuff will hit on 5+ or even 6+ and face a 1+ AS so 18 to 36 attacks per wound, not even including to wound rolls (doubling the number again). No forced overrun, no frenzy baiting...as said, different purpose.

And "how many points you're paying for that horse"..."that horse"...you can get S5 attacks or S6 attacks on the charge too (for more points, but whatever). So you should really compare marked knights with ensorcelled weapons with marked halberdiers, so it's 19 -> 45 = +26 pts for 4+AS -> 1+AS (which more than doubles the effectiveness of the model) M4 -> M7 Swiftstride...an invaluable (aka HUGE) advantage and +1S3 attack.
Just for the armor comparison a table for the strength and how many wounds you need to kill a model after the armor save:
S3 2 vs 6 (3 times as effective)
S4 1.5 vs 6 (4 times as effective)
S5 1.2 vs 3 (2.5 times as effective)
S6 1 vs 2 (2 times as effective)
S7 1 vs 1.5
S8 1 vs 1.2
S9+ 1 vs 1

I don't know how often your knights have to face S7+ attacks, but otherwise you get 19-57 pts from the armor alone. Even if you take a lower estimate of 19 pts (aka you face mainly S6 and about equally S3 and cannons and nearly never S4 or S5), you get +3M, Swiftstride and a S3 attack for 7 pts. THAT is a bargain.

BUT ... SCs are even more of a bargain, so as long as you can live with frenzy and have points left in rare and the models and they aren't comped, take SCs.


So u got a tzeentch bsb that can't join any unit, u have iron curse but no tzeentch unit to benefit
The BSB can join the knights as they are unmarked (and it's even written that he should go there) and you don't NEED a tzeentch unit to benefit from iron curse icon (although I agree that you should take MoT on the knights if you run them this way).


Chariots must be used in pairs...
Definitely not true. A single chariot can effectively hunt chaff, pin and kill small to medium combat units worth way more points, etc. And against large units two chariots aren't that good anyways. Only thing to look out for is static combat res as after the initial charge non MoK chariots (figuratively speaking) won't ever reach 2 ranks + banner static CR solo. MoK will probably not reach that too (reliably), so don't run it solo into a block that has 15+ models left after d6+1 s5 impact hits, 2S4 and 6S5 attacks.


Hell cannon is a very recommended...
Well one I'd not recommend (too unreliable as a shooter and too slow for a monster) and two are a totally different play style than SCs (which you suddenly can't field anymore).

Ossirian
17-09-2014, 06:17
You don't really need the demonic mount for The Lord look at the disc.
22 warriors could be cut for 17 3x6, not sure this hero is going to be effective. As the unit will most probably end fighting the "wrong" things.
IMO switch sorc unmarked rror+scroll put the fire into the warriors, makes them more rewarding to attack. Nobody wants to fight khorne warriors, even less with a hero in the front, redirected and fluffed all game will this m4 unit be.
Tbh I'd drop that khorne hero entirely. Top out your core with another chariot same mark as the other.
Increase the sc to 4, or 5 if you're feeling ballsy.
Use the chariots as bookends for the sc, the warriors will naturally cover 1 flank and your knights can cover the other or use table edge.
Just my 2cents


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CountUlrich
19-09-2014, 19:01
I've been busy painting, so haven't had a chance to play it yet, but I think this is what I'm taking to a single day tourney this weekend. I moved some points, and dropped my chaff which hopefully I won't regret, but I went with squeezing in a 2nd chariot. We'll see how it goes ...

Chaos Lord on demonic mount with barding, MoTzeentch, third eye, soul feeder, flaming breath, armor of destiny, crown of command, great weapon, shield

Sorcerer on Disc, MoTzeentch level 2 with chaos familiar, ToP, Charmed shield

Exalted Hero, BSB, on barded steed, MoTzeentch ToE, shield


21 Warriors of Chaos, Mark of Khorne, halberds, full command, Standard of swiftness

Chariot of Nurgle

Chariot of Slaanesh


6 Chaos Knights, mark of tzeentch, ensorcelled weapons, muso + standard, war banner (BSB here)

Chimera Regen + Flaming Breath


4 Skullcrushers, full command, ensorcelled weapons



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Josfer
19-09-2014, 22:19
I'd suggest switching shield for GW on the BSB, dropping 2 warriors for a unit of dogs and upgrading the slaanesh chariot to nurgle.

Ossirian
20-09-2014, 09:04
I'd suggest switching shield for GW on the BSB, dropping 2 warriors for a unit of dogs and upgrading the slaanesh chariot to nurgle.
Agreeing with the above btw.

Is get blasted standRd for knights instead.

Drop champion and standard from sc. standards die if they flee and champions are a lot of attacks to lose in a challenge.

Also swap your disc and daemonic mounts about, the dm will give the sorc t5 and do nothing for The Lord. The disc makes your lord unchaffable.

Also allows the sorc to tag onto the knights. Which makes him very safe.

Also, a cheeky ironcurse icon on the hero would be nice

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Josfer
20-09-2014, 15:08
Stay with the standard bearer on SCs and give them razor banner. They won`t flee. Period.

Ossirian
21-09-2014, 10:13
Stay with the standard bearer on SCs and give them razor banner. They won`t flee. Period.

IMO not worth it, as for 20 odd more points he can get another sc. ofc that's the beauty, personal preference.

The net cr you're gonna receive for that 55 pts is gonna be little if any over 1. And you can get that 1 for 10 pts.


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Josfer
21-09-2014, 13:56
You get 50% more damage against 1+ AS enemies, which in my opinion are the biggest problem for SCs. If you hit on 3+ and wound on 2+ you get slightly over two wounds more. Another SC will be in the second rank and only increase your damage by 1/8 to 1/7, which is less than razor banner gives against 4+ AS.

So that`s 3CR more vs half a CR (or 1.5 if you lose enough SCs to get below 3).

But it depends on your Meta

Ossirian
22-09-2014, 06:14
You get 50% more damage against 1+ AS enemies, which in my opinion are the biggest problem for SCs. If you hit on 3+ and wound on 2+ you get slightly over two wounds more. Another SC will be in the second rank and only increase your damage by 1/8 to 1/7, which is less than razor banner gives against 4+ AS.

So that`s 3CR more vs half a CR (or 1.5 if you lose enough SCs to get below 3).

But it depends on your Meta

Granted it works out well vs that armor, but that armor more than likely isn't gonna come close to cr without a lance charge and even then your attacks per frontage will counter balance the str. The effect of the banner diminishes the worse armour you're against. It's 1/6 more wounds through armour than you'd be getting anyhow and it only has any effect after 4+ armour, it's not a bad banner at all but it's cost is half a chariot.
And if you're talking about a 6 frontage knight unit, 5 frontage sc all get in. Also when you line up 5 sc the other guys battle plans change. That is a unit with fear!


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Josfer
22-09-2014, 06:51
5 SCs will be redirected and never face anything, so are a total waste of points. Do you really want to field a unit for 400 pts that does nothing but kill 100 pts of chaff through the game?

And sure 5 SCs in would fit against 6 wide knights, but are you sure you`ll even get into CC with them? On full contact? Will you field your SCs five wide for that chance? What about 5 wide 20mm anvils with 4+ or even 3+ (dwarves...or anything supported by magic)?

Bigman
22-09-2014, 18:44
I've tried 5 SC...too wide to manoeuvre. 3 / 4 max for me now.

Patrunkenphat7
23-09-2014, 03:29
Yeah three Skullcrushers wreck almost anything in the game if they can get into the right combat. Their greatest weakness is frenzy, and increasing their numbers doesn't fix that problem. When I play against Skullcrushers I fear 2 units of 3 because they are usually too much for me to redirect with my chaff, but I am ecstatic if I see a unit of 5+ because I am confident I can make that unit do nothing the entire game if I don't have another one coming at me on my other flank.

Ossirian
23-09-2014, 06:31
5 SCs will be redirected and never face anything, so are a total waste of points. Do you really want to field a unit for 400 pts that does nothing but kill 100 pts of chaff through the game?

And sure 5 SCs in would fit against 6 wide knights, but are you sure you`ll even get into CC with them? On full contact? Will you field your SCs five wide for that chance? What about 5 wide 20mm anvils with 4+ or even 3+ (dwarves...or anything supported by magic)?

I wasn't advocating it I was simply pointing it out. 4 is a lot tbh. The banner makes them 3o points less than 5 and they will still get redirected.
I'd rather include 2 more packs of dogs.


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Josfer
23-09-2014, 11:22
The banner makes them 3o points less than 5 and they will still get redirected.
Not from my experience (besides the usual chaffing any main combat unit faces). People tend to underestimate or not care about the banner.
But I agree that he can easily drop a SC. 3 are amazing anyways and IF the enemy redirects them around less points are bound.

Ossirian
24-09-2014, 08:08
Not from my experience (besides the usual chaffing any main combat unit faces). People tend to underestimate or not care about the banner.
But I agree that he can easily drop a SC. 3 are amazing anyways and IF the enemy redirects them around less points are bound.
But then with my experience of using 5 the enemy usually puts everything into redirecting them and as such it's easy to counter, just take out the chaff, prevent the overrun and accept the free vp. Requires building an army around the unit but if you take a couple of chaff killer units from core you'll notice the scramble, and the enemies panic when he realises he has no more units to redirect with, it's pretty priceless.
Half the fun of chaos is getting the "oh my..." Response when you drop a unit isn't it?




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Josfer
24-09-2014, 09:49
With the lore of undeath and infinite blocks of 10 skeletons and your chaff killers blocking the way of the SCs while/after killing the chaff and WoCs inability to shoot chaff off the board you seem to face enemies who take chaff very sparsely.

AND you invest 650+ points into that tactic to get some 20-100 pts per one to two turns. Not even speaking of losing 250+ pts because he waits for your chaff killers to overrun (so they're not in the way of your SCs) to countercharge and kill them, while the next chaff keeps the SCs busy. ...or he just shoots them off the board with WMs and stuff.

Bigman
24-09-2014, 17:41
I'm an advocate of 2 units of 3, one with musician and one with banner lol.

Just cause I have those built.

Honesty though, 2 x 3 are quite terrifying for an opponent, especially if you then drop a chimera and a disc lord or a DP... It's too many targets to deal with.

I would advocate a lvl 1 fire as well. They are EPIC at removing chaff and small units. Plus they're not too shabby in a fight.

Unmarked with enchanted shield, dispel scroll is 140 points...they really do work well.

Ossirian
26-09-2014, 06:31
With the lore of undeath and infinite blocks of 10 skeletons and your chaff killers blocking the way of the SCs while/after killing the chaff and WoCs inability to shoot chaff off the board you seem to face enemies who take chaff very sparsely.

AND you invest 650+ points into that tactic to get some 20-100 pts per one to two turns. Not even speaking of losing 250+ pts because he waits for your chaff killers to overrun (so they're not in the way of your SCs) to countercharge and kill them, while the next chaff keeps the SCs busy. ...or he just shoots them off the board with WMs and stuff.
You're talking about a nagash game, with that game I'm allowed 50% characters and I'd take a very different list.
And in your prologue to the game above you forgot to mention what the remaining 75% of my army was killing.
It's an insanely strong unit which as you agree nobody will want to fight, and it's not that many points considering. Although being about to control where the enemy will focus is significant tactical advantage.
Units can be useful without killing millions of models.
And I'm not advocating it over two units of 3 just putting forward an alternative.
FYI I've used a unit of 8 led by my bsb and lord before 2x5, if we all ran cookie cutter builds the game would be boring.



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Josfer
26-09-2014, 07:49
I didn`t forget to mention what your remaining 75% was killing, I intendedly didn`t mention it, because otherwise I`d have to mention the enemies remaining stuff of 90% of his army after a warmachine or two or some shooters or a mage less (which obviously don`t make up for the difference in points between 650+ points including most of your rare and 60-300 pts mostly from core) too.
And no, I don`t only talk about nagash games, the chaff killers blocking the SCs is a problem without WET.

Ossirian
29-09-2014, 06:18
I didn`t forget to mention what your remaining 75% was killing, I intendedly didn`t mention it, because otherwise I`d have to mention the enemies remaining stuff of 90% of his army after a warmachine or two or some shooters or a mage less (which obviously don`t make up for the difference in points between 650+ points including most of your rare and 60-300 pts mostly from core) too.
And no, I don`t only talk about nagash games, the chaff killers blocking the SCs is a problem without WET.

Wow defensive much. Err ok you're right.


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