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EvanM
10-09-2014, 22:45
so in my mind I thought you couldnt fire missile weapons over any troops, yours or your enemies. But can you?

i think that if you shoot through an enemy unit they get hard cover, but do you still have to draw some line of sight even if its not with all the models?

also is it different if its a cannon or stone thrower, can it shoot over a unit of your own or your enemies men?

im sorry if this is an "obvious" question, maybe ive been thinking of it too literally.

aprilmanha
10-09-2014, 23:12
I usually go for it if the target is a big thing, like ogres, or bigger. Makes sense then.

theunwantedbeing
10-09-2014, 23:38
If a model can draw line of sight to part of an enemy model, he can shoot them (provided he's in range obviously).
If a model can't see more than 50% of the enemy due to other models (friend or foe) then he'll incur a hard cover penalty as a result.

Tall models can usually shoot over shorter models without suffering the penalty.(you don't need to be a large target or on a hill either, although this helps).
Short models can sometimes shoot through the gaps between models they can't see over and not suffer a penalty.

forseer of fates
11-09-2014, 00:08
In 8th edition you can pretty much fire through anything, suffering hard cover, only really a building blocks line of sight completely.

Montegue
11-09-2014, 00:09
Can you see it? Yes? You can shoot it. However.

If a unit is between you and it in a significant way, then it has hard cover.

So, let's say you're playing dwarfs, and you have an Organ Gun tucked behind your lines. You can shoot those ogres over there, and you'll probably have to take a -2 for hard cover. That Giant, however, isn't hardly covered at all. You can shoot him with no penalty.

Let's say that Organ gun is up on a hill. Well, he can see clear over the Quarrelers on the ground below, so no cover is provided. The harder part comes with non-BS using shooting. For example, a cannon has to trace line of sight to the point on the ground he wants to aim at. So, you better be able to see that point on the ground from the vantage of the Cannon. this is actually almost impossible to do from the eye level of the cannon itself, and is one more reason why Skull Cannons and Ironblasters are so amazing (they trace LOS from a high vantage point).

EvanM
11-09-2014, 02:33
so an empire cannon cant shoot through say, state troops if its deployed directly behind them? its weird. ive seen people do it before and ive seen people avoid doing it. TLOS is a weird weird system.

FatTrucker
11-09-2014, 04:39
Its the biggest thing that's wrong with TLOS. Nothing should be able to draw line of sight through any non skirmishing unit. Needs a rule that it or its target mist be elevated or large enough to see over or around it.

EvanM
11-09-2014, 05:27
Its the biggest thing that's wrong with TLOS. Nothing should be able to draw line of sight through any non skirmishing unit. Needs a rule that it or its target mist be elevated or large enough to see over or around it.

so technically right now you can nearly shoot through anything?

aprilmanha
11-09-2014, 07:32
so technically right now you can nearly shoot through anything?
Seems like it :O

theunwantedbeing
11-09-2014, 10:04
so an empire cannon cant shoot through say, state troops if its deployed directly behind them? its weird. ive seen people do it before and ive seen people avoid doing it. TLOS is a weird weird system.

So long as it's firing at a point it can see, then yes it can do that.

Smogg
11-09-2014, 10:43
Yes, and a strong laser pointer really will usually find those small gaps. :)

aprilmanha
11-09-2014, 11:20
I would not try to fire a cannon between the legs of a man :P

Narrow gaps between unit blocks would be fine though :)

T10
13-09-2014, 11:08
so technically right now you can nearly shoot through anything?

Well, as players we can objectively agree that a model will rarely, if ever, occupy the complete silhouette above his base. With overlapping silhoettes there's still a chance that there is less than 100% covarge. This is fairly generous of us.

As the shooting player you can take advantage of this generosity by claiming that "oh, each of those guys can totally see!"

As the player whose unit is being shot at, you can of course challenge this, but unless your opponent immediately caves and agrees to to resplve this with a roll-off (yay! A 4+ coversave) you're pretty sure to sour the mood by standing your ground and insisting he cannot draw line of sight at all.

Don't sign me up for any humanotarian awards or anything, but I have on at least one occasion passed up on the opportunity to shoot at a target because it was "too hard to see".

Spiney Norman
13-09-2014, 13:07
Well, as players we can objectively agree that a model will rarely, if ever, occupy the complete silhouette above his base. With overlapping silhoettes there's still a chance that there is less than 100% covarge. This is fairly generous of us.

As the shooting player you can take advantage of this generosity by claiming that "oh, each of those guys can totally see!"

As the player whose unit is being shot at, you can of course challenge this, but unless your opponent immediately caves and agrees to to resplve this with a roll-off (yay! A 4+ coversave) you're pretty sure to sour the mood by standing your ground and insisting he cannot draw line of sight at all.

Don't sign me up for any humanotarian awards or anything, but I have on at least one occasion passed up on the opportunity to shoot at a target because it was "too hard to see".

Its pretty much accepted at my local club that to be completely out of sight you pretty much have to be a behind a windowless building, its amazing how much care our players have taken to board up all the windows in their terrain pieces, the 40k ruins particularly look hilarious.

The amount of time players take messing around with 'models eye views' and laser pointers to make sure their unit really is completely concealed behind a building just makes the movement phases take forever. True LoS is unquestionably the worst rule in any wargame I have ever played, the amount of time it adds to games is staggering.

Montegue
15-09-2014, 03:21
Its pretty much accepted at my local club that to be completely out of sight you pretty much have to be a behind a windowless building, its amazing how much care our players have taken to board up all the windows in their terrain pieces, the 40k ruins particularly look hilarious.

The amount of time players take messing around with 'models eye views' and laser pointers to make sure their unit really is completely concealed behind a building just makes the movement phases take forever. True LoS is unquestionably the worst rule in any wargame I have ever played, the amount of time it adds to games is staggering.

I must live in crazy town. In three years of playing warhammer I have yet to take longer than a few moments determining if I can see a target or not. Either I can, or I can't. It's not hard. You get to eye level, you sight along the whatever, and if you can see it you can shoot it.

I've never witnessed anyone being a dink about TLOS.

Horus38
15-09-2014, 13:36
Its pretty much accepted at my local club that to be completely out of sight you pretty much have to be a behind a windowless building, its amazing how much care our players have taken to board up all the windows in their terrain pieces, the 40k ruins particularly look hilarious.

The amount of time players take messing around with 'models eye views' and laser pointers to make sure their unit really is completely concealed behind a building just makes the movement phases take forever. True LoS is unquestionably the worst rule in any wargame I have ever played, the amount of time it adds to games is staggering.

I'm with Montegue on this one. Anyone taking that much time to check this is being a putz. Our group loves this new rule and it has sped up that phase for us.

olderplayer
15-09-2014, 18:55
Monte is right. You either can or cannot. Since ballistic shooting is theoretically an arced shot anyway, firing over intervening units is not that difficult to justify or consider.

Hard cover is a bit more difficult. I tend to use the old 7th edition concept and look from the point of the firing weapon (in other words, I don't assume one can shoot under and through the legs of the intervening models. So, for hard cover, I generally look at the height and footprint (as though the individual models covered a rectangle) and try to use a hard edge of a rule or something.

theunwantedbeing
15-09-2014, 19:03
Hard cover is a bit more difficult. I tend to use the old 7th edition concept and look from the point of the firing weapon (in other words, I don't assume one can shoot under and through the legs of the intervening models. So, for hard cover, I generally look at the height and footprint (as though the individual models covered a rectangle) and try to use a hard edge of a rule or something.

Eh?

TloS uses straight lines to see the target.
Cover is based on whatever is stopping you seeing that target.(if anything)

At no point do you ever use an arc to decide whether you can or cannot hit something.

BorkBork
15-09-2014, 20:23
Eh?

TloS uses straight lines to see the target.
Cover is based on whatever is stopping you seeing that target.(if anything)

At no point do you ever use an arc to decide whether you can or cannot hit something.

He doesnt actually say that! And imho Olderplayer makes perfect sense. You will look straight ahead to determine the target, range etc. and indeed the bow shot will be an arc going over the heads of oposing troops. So the less you see the harder it is to determine proper target and range ect. GW should just never have called it hard cover, as that kind of implies you can shoot your own troops.

theunwantedbeing
15-09-2014, 20:44
He doesnt actually say that! And imho Olderplayer makes perfect sense. You will look straight ahead to determine the target, range etc. and indeed the bow shot will be an arc going over the heads of oposing troops. So the less you see the harder it is to determine proper target and range ect. GW should just never have called it hard cover, as that kind of implies you can shoot your own troops.

I may have slightly misread and got confused.

I agree calling it hard cover was daft.

olderplayer
18-09-2014, 16:50
Eh?

TloS uses straight lines to see the target.
Cover is based on whatever is stopping you seeing that target.(if anything)

At no point do you ever use an arc to decide whether you can or cannot hit something.

You completely missed what I said. I said conceptually a unit can shoot through an intervening unit because in the real worldshots arc. However, I made VERY CLEAR that under TLOS I used a straight line to the target and treat the intervening models as fully blocking view based on height and width for purposes of determining if a cover save is appropriate and, to make that determination more straightforward, I do not consider gaps under the legs or arms and on each side of the head of a model in the 50% covered determination. What this means is that a shooting unit may be able to trace a line of sight literally through an intervening unit because of gaps in the intervening models and between those models but for the 50% determination, I ignore those gaps and resolve my shots with a hard cover penalty, as do most people. (Oops, I guess someone already noted that, thanks.)

theunwantedbeing
18-09-2014, 17:06
What this means is that a shooting unit may be able to trace a line of sight literally through an intervening unit because of gaps in the intervening models and between those models but for the 50% determination, I ignore those gaps and resolve my shots with a hard cover penalty, as do most people. (Oops, I guess someone already noted that, thanks.)

That's not how TLoS works though.

olderplayer
18-09-2014, 17:40
That's not how TLoS works though.

If I can see it, I can shot it. I specifically said "I ignore" because hard cover is something where some people err on the side of not wanting to argue and fight over it and sitting there and counting space in the gaps to determine the 50% and argue about it in a tournament or timed event is a bit much and a waste. It is just easier to use a hard edge of a ruler over and on the sides of the unit to estimate what is or is not blocking LOS and not count the little gaps one can theoretically see through in the intervening models/units.

Andy p
18-09-2014, 18:45
So TK archers can just fire through units?

I've heard that before but been loath to try it.

theunwantedbeing
18-09-2014, 19:04
So TK archers can just fire through units?

I've heard that before but been loath to try it.

So long as each model can draw line of sight to part of the enemy, yes they can "just fire through units".
Any unit can do that, TK just get to ignore modifiers to hit so it's not a problem for them.

forseer of fates
18-09-2014, 19:17
Its not each model in the unit, its one model. Tomb kings archers can always fire through units hitting on 5's, 99% of the time anyway:)

theunwantedbeing
18-09-2014, 19:31
Its not each model in the unit, its one model. Tomb kings archers can always fire through units hitting on 5's, 99% of the time anyway:)

Page 39
Each model has to be able to see the target to shoot it, models that cannot see the target cannot shoot.

You only have to be able to see one model in the enemy unit to shoot that enemy unit though.

Andy p
18-09-2014, 19:45
So long as each model can draw line of sight to part of the enemy, yes they can "just fire through units".
Any unit can do that, TK just get to ignore modifiers to hit so it's not a problem for them.

Yes you're right, my phrasing was poor.

elthran
06-10-2014, 20:56
If I shoot a bolt thrower at a dragon, do I get a -2 to hit if there is a unit in between us? Even if it's easy to see because the dragon is so tall?

theunwantedbeing
06-10-2014, 21:04
If I shoot a bolt thrower at a dragon, do I get a -2 to hit if there is a unit in between us? Even if it's easy to see because the dragon is so tall?

The unit has to also block line of sight to the target unit by at least 50%, otherwise simply being between the firer and the target won't cause a penalty.

So no, chances are you don't suffer a -2 penalty to shoot the dragon with your bolt thrower when there is a unit between them as the dragon is so tall and easy to see.

SteveW
06-10-2014, 21:17
so technically right now you can nearly shoot through anything?

You have to draw line of sight to the body(not appendages or equipment) of another model. Knights with barding will usually block LoS to an infantry unit.

Stalfos
08-10-2014, 13:04
Since TLOS uses the body (not banners or appendages etc), would it be a bad idea to use basing that raises the height of a model?