PDA

View Full Version : End Times Question



untimention
11-09-2014, 08:54
Hi Warseer,

I haven't been on here in an age but I have a burning question and having spoken to various people I've heard allsorts of different answers.

I've even sent the question to GW and got the following response:

"Many thanks you for your email. Please note that we do not answer any rules queries by email or phone, however, you can email your questions or suggestions for future FAQs & Errata's to the email address below."


So here is the email I originally sent to them:

"Good afternoon,

I wanted to get some clarification with regards to the new End Times rules.

Is the book a supplement or expansion? Normally when a book of this nature is released it is clearly stated however in the case of this book it is very much unclear.

When the rule book came out I was told by 1 store that the rules in the book are official standard rules and so should be seen as if they were contained in the 8th edition rule book however having spoken with a different store they said the opponent has to agree to using the rules from the book (very much like Storm of Magic i.e. a supplement vs. an expansion of the current rulebook).

This has seemingly created a lot of confusion (and I don't appear to be alone in being confused) and my opponents seemingly being able to just say "no I don't want to play End Times" So I can't use the shiny new book, my shiny new undeath magic cards, my shiny Nagash model and my shiny Mortarch.

Are you able to confirm or link me through to something that confirms either way.

Thanks"


I'd be interested to hear your thoughts/ comments around this.

MasterSplinter
11-09-2014, 09:04
IŽd say youŽll have to make that clear with your opponent prior to the game. If youŽd like to play an endtimes game it should be known by every player, so they can write a list with 50% lords and maybe think of getting a wizard with Lore of Undeath.

I would consider the endtimes as an expansion everyone has to agree on. However iŽd guess that you could still play the Undead legion list in normal games (so youŽll have trouble to get Nagash in etc.)

Ramius4
11-09-2014, 09:48
IŽd say youŽll have to make that clear with your opponent prior to the game. If youŽd like to play an endtimes game it should be known by every player, so they can write a list with 50% lords and maybe think of getting a wizard with Lore of Undeath.

I would consider the endtimes as an expansion everyone has to agree on. However iŽd guess that you could still play the Undead legion list in normal games (so youŽll have trouble to get Nagash in etc.)

This.

PS. Employees in GW stores aren't on the design team. They're no better at knowing the rules than the people who buy stuff from them. ;)

untimention
11-09-2014, 11:52
Okay so:

- 50% characters / lore of undeath - need to be stated prior and agreed

- Using an undead legion list - doesn't need to be agreed

MasterSplinter
11-09-2014, 12:12
well in my environment one usually knows who to face with what army he plays. I donŽt know about yours, so you might even have to clear that up with your opponents.

I wouldnŽt see any impact if you just came uo with an undead legions list, as there is no inteference of the ruleset as a whole.
Well, maybe you will suffer some imba cries, but thats not justified imo.

ewar
11-09-2014, 12:34
The wording in the book itself is pretty clear - they are a revision to the core rules of the game regarding army selection. Of course, it takes two to tango, so you can't force your opponent to play a game.

But a cornerstone (seemingly) of the whole End Times release is to change the army selection rules, bring in a new summoning lore for everyone and allow the Undead Legions list.

So, to answer the OP, no you don't need permission (any more than you do for anything in a two player game).

Smogg
11-09-2014, 12:51
I think it's a valid question to ask GW since there has been a lot of debate around this.
Personally I think End Times is not an optional storyline or rule set. End times takes both story and rules forward and likely towards 9th edition. Of course you can still agree to play pre-end times or earlier editions of warhammer. Right now it's a really good idea just to agree beforehand no matter how you view it.

I don't think you can get GW to state that the official way to play warhammer is with or without end times, but I think they will be happy to state that Warhammer has changed with End Times.

I'm sure as GW publish more End Times, keep writing "Warhammer will never be the same" players buy and paint the miniatures then End Times will settle as the new valid rules within most communities. I think we may need at least one more End Times book as undead rules always seem to inspire extra fear and resistance!

thesoundofmusica
11-09-2014, 13:41
To have the best of times playing your game, make sure you talk with your opponent beforehand what kind of game you're both looking for and all will be fine.

Of course, this was always the case.

Tae
11-09-2014, 17:57
Firstly I'm not surprised by the response, they're keen to wash their hands of any responsibility.

Also, to quote myself from another thread:

The whole question of 'permission' is irrelevant. There are two types of WFB game (and any other table top war games for that matter): tournament and non-tournament.

Tournament games are governed by what the TO decides the rules are, so the only permission required is theirs, and they can do whatever they want regardless of what the rules may or may not say.

Non-tournament games are governed by the players playing - and that means both of them. So even if you 'may' use X, Y or Z that doesn't mean your opponent has to agree to it, they are free to say "actually I'd rather not play that, but thanks anyway" (or similar).

So what you 'May' or 'may not' do is more governed by your opponent than any publication, they merely provide a good starting point for discussion.

Doesn't quite fit exactly, but gets my point across re. 'forced' to accept playing W:ET games.

FatTrucker
12-09-2014, 15:50
I think this will be less of an issue when all the End Times books have been released and everyone has access to their own special rules, special armies and maybe special magic.
Currently, its a bit unfair to expect everyone to just allow an End Times game when only 1 army has been updated with new rules, characters and legions.
When opponents have similar options and special characters to choose from it will offer more balance.
Until then, I think the only sporting way to play End Times rules and lists is to get agreement from any opponent beforehand.

Brother Fenix
19-09-2014, 00:26
From the GW page:


Warhammer: Nagash Book 2 is a 96-page volume that contains new scenarios and rules based on the events in Warhammer: Nagash Book 1. It includes the full rules that will allow you to field Nagash and his loyal subjects - along with all-new rules for some of the most powerful heroes of the Old World, such as Valten and Vlad von Carstein - in your games of Warhammer.

Armies of the End Times can also field more Lords - up to 50% - and the brand new spell lore - The Lore of Undeath - allows every wizard, mage and sorcerer to wield the fell magic unleashed by Nagash. There are also army lists that allow you to create a unified army of Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts known as the Undead Legion.
The first words in the second paragraph seem to indicate to me that there are Warhammer armies, and "Armies of the End Times" which is a seperate set of rules, or rules specific to this event.

Blkc57
19-09-2014, 02:11
From the GW page:


The first words in the second paragraph seem to indicate to me that there are Warhammer armies, and "Armies of the End Times" which is a seperate set of rules, or rules specific to this event.

The Nagash book makes it clear, armies of the End Times is just the new army composition rules included in the book. it says specifically that these rules apply to all army books, so it isn't some new game. Basically you can either choose to use the page or not, just like you can choose to use mysterious terrain or not. But it's obvious the End Times books aren't some new game of Warhammer, it's all still normal Warhammer with a few rules updates, what you do with the new rules is up to each group or player.

Horus38
19-09-2014, 14:20
The book talks about giving players a toolbox to get the most out of their games and choosing what they'd like to use. Unlike what most people in this thread are saying the book does NOT indicate these are an update to the core rules.

Spiney Norman
19-09-2014, 16:13
I think this will be less of an issue when all the End Times books have been released and everyone has access to their own special rules, special armies and maybe special magic.


It will be no issue at all when you are playing against someone who wants an interesting, story-driven gaming experience rather than a two hour ego-massage. Unfortunately there aren't so many of those kind of gamers about.

aprilmanha
19-09-2014, 16:31
"Many thanks you for your email. Please note that we do not answer any rules queries by email or phone, however, you can email your questions or suggestions for future FAQs & Errata's to the email address below."


For convenience and good feelings for all, I put in my vote for agreeing with the opponent ahead of time to do a WET game.

The quoted bit has me worried though, when did GW stop offering clarifications on their rules over the phones and email?

FatTrucker
21-09-2014, 16:39
It will be no issue at all when you are playing against someone who wants an interesting, story-driven gaming experience rather than a two hour ego-massage. Unfortunately there aren't so many of those kind of gamers about.

You're playing with the wrong people mate. Tourney/competetive games tend to lean toward rules lawyering and specialised lists, but around here at least, most (not all) players, play fun, social, sporting games.

Lordcypress
21-09-2014, 21:03
Page 21 of the Nagash book is very clear. These are the new rules for Warhammer. Of course you don't have to follow them. You can still play 5th edition, 6th edition whatever you as a player want to play. But as far as two players showing up to gaming store and wanting to play an 8th edition game. You need expect that players could have an Undead Legion and that the %'s for Lords and Heroes will 50%. This is now the norm. You might as well photo copy page 21 of the Nagash book and insert it into your main Warhammer Fantasy rule book as well as the Lore of Undeath.

Brother Fenix
22-09-2014, 21:03
Page 21 of the Nagash book is very clear. These are the new rules for Warhammer.
I'm not disputing you, but for those who may wish to parse words, split hairs as it were, quote please?

Thanks,

SteveW
22-09-2014, 21:29
Page 21 of the Nagash book is very clear. These are the new rules for Warhammer..
You're kidding? Right? It says "these are the rules for playing a game of warhammer end times" in the same way Apocalypse books say it about apoc games. Now, I'm all for playing end times games but there's no "You have to play end times" anywhere in the book.

SimaoSegunda
22-09-2014, 23:42
You're kidding? Right? It says "these are the rules for playing a game of warhammer end times" in the same way Apocalypse books say it about apoc games. Now, I'm all for playing end times games but there's no "You have to play end times" anywhere in the book.

No, it really doesn't. It says, and I quote: "This section updates the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer. Just as the Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard, all armies use these rules for choosing an army" (emphasis theirs). Furthermore, there is a section on page 3 that explicitly states "New Warhammer Rules: These are new rules you can use in any game of Warhammer..."

Maoriboy007
23-09-2014, 05:37
I'm not sure if its any more valid for someone to refuse to play against the Undead Legion, than it would for me to refuse to play against, say, the Dark Elf book and any rules therein, for example. You've paid your money, same as the other bloke, to use a valid set of rules as specified and laid out by games Workshop. Sure, there should be a certain amount of camaraderie and friendly agreement between two players as to how to have a good game, but I'd say its hard to say that the EoT book is invalid in some way, or that any of the rules within are more or less optional than any of the rules in any of the rulebooks.
An EoT question:
When summoning characters using the LoU, can they be equipped with magic items and vampiric powers? It states in the description that they can have any upgrades and options available.

Lordcypress
23-09-2014, 13:31
Sure but you are bound by the amount of points you summon. 65pts is the starting base character. Maybe through tokens you can jack him up a little bit more. This is where Nagash and Arkhan kick butt. Their points costs triple for Nagash and double for Arkhan. For example Nagash could summon a 195pt undead character.

Horus38
23-09-2014, 17:53
Furthermore, there is a section on page 3 that explicitly states "New Warhammer Rules: These are new rules you can use in any game of Warhammer..."

The book also talks about these new rules being tools in a tool box which players can pick and choose what they'd like to use in their game. There is no "THESE RULES UPDATE WARHAMMER 8TH EDITION CORE RULES" clause to be found.

Lordcypress
24-09-2014, 01:04
The book also talks about these new rules being tools in a tool box which players can pick and choose what they'd like to use in their game. There is no "THESE RULES UPDATE WARHAMMER 8TH EDITION CORE RULES" clause to be found.

This is the End Times. These are the new rules for Warhammer Fantasy. You can either except it or not. As a player you play whatever you want. I have the Book of Nagash and its clear what the new rules for Warhammer are. There is nothing hidden or misleading in the wording. The game is changing. Players need to be aware of the changes and adopt. 50% Lord and 50% Hero is now legal as is the Lore of Undeath. You can except it or not. The End Times is not a champagne. It is the new Warhammer Fantasy.

Horus38
24-09-2014, 04:46
This is the End Times. These are the new rules for Warhammer Fantasy. You can either except it or not. As a player you play whatever you want. I have the Book of Nagash and its clear what the new rules for Warhammer are. There is nothing hidden or misleading in the wording. The game is changing. Players need to be aware of the changes and adopt. 50% Lord and 50% Hero is now legal as is the Lore of Undeath. You can except it or not. The End Times is not a champagne. It is the new Warhammer Fantasy.

I accept exactly what is written by GW in their own book - tools for players to pick through to maximize their own games. As many have said it's a conversation between opponents. So no, it's not this bold declaration I keep seeing in this thread.

tneva82
24-09-2014, 07:16
I'm not sure if its any more valid for someone to refuse to play against the Undead Legion, than it would for me to refuse to play against, say, the Dark Elf book and any rules therein, for example. You've paid your money, same as the other bloke, to use a valid set of rules as specified and laid out by games Workshop.

So because I have paid for 40k apoc rulebook I'm free to use apoc formations and rules in normal 40k games?

Or in FB related because I have paid for storm of magic book I can use those unannounced? Nice. Free monster points and access to all sorts of monsters.

It's not as simple as "have you paid money or not".

tneva82
24-09-2014, 07:17
This is the End Times. These are the new rules for Warhammer Fantasy. You can either except it or not. As a player you play whatever you want. I have the Book of Nagash and its clear what the new rules for Warhammer are. There is nothing hidden or misleading in the wording. The game is changing. Players need to be aware of the changes and adopt. 50% Lord and 50% Hero is now legal as is the Lore of Undeath. You can except it or not. The End Times is not a champagne. It is the new Warhammer Fantasy.

Pity I don't have book myself but from all the quotes shown so far nothing indicates it's automatic update to core rules.

SimaoSegunda
24-09-2014, 15:50
So because I have paid for 40k apoc rulebook I'm free to use apoc formations and rules in normal 40k games?

Or in FB related because I have paid for storm of magic book I can use those unannounced? Nice. Free monster points and access to all sorts of monsters.

It's not as simple as "have you paid money or not".

That's not true though. Apoc specifically states it being a different type of game. Storm of Magic has scenarios that specifically state which SoM rules they are using, and that SoM is an expansion. As, incidentally, does Triumph and Treachery.

Nagash, on the other hand, states, and I quote: "This section updates (emphasis mine) the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer (again, emphasis mine)"

SteveW
24-09-2014, 19:44
Just like warhammer nagash says these are the rules for playing a game in the end times.

SimaoSegunda
24-09-2014, 23:27
Just like warhammer nagash says these are the rules for playing a game in the end times.

You've said that before. Doesn't make you any less wrong.

SteveW
25-09-2014, 00:19
You've said that before. Doesn't make you any less wrong.


It has it in the book and on the website.

Lordcypress
25-09-2014, 00:37
Well I have nothing else to say on the matter. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Horus38
25-09-2014, 02:19
Nagash, on the other hand, states, and I quote: "This section updates (emphasis mine) the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer (again, emphasis mine)"

Wow, what a joke. Allow me to post the full quote for you: "New Warhammer Rules: These are new rules you can use in any game of Warhammer that allow you to recreate haunted landscapes and underground battles. This section also includes the Lore of Undeath, a new spell lore that allows yours wizards to wield the fell magics unleashed by Nagash."
The rules in question specifically pertain to the scenarios laid out in chapter 1.

And on the next page: "As you can see, this book represents much more that just a selection of scenarios and the special rules to go with them. Instead you should think of it as a toolbox, from which you can pick and choose what to use in any games of Warhammer that you play."

I will grant you that the "Choosing an Army" clause on page 21 does state this is an update of army composition rules, and should be taken hand in hand with the 2nd quote above.

olderplayer
25-09-2014, 03:26
Horus38 is right. Read the whole context, not just a few phrases out of context. There is nothing clear in the Undead Legions book rules saying that they explicitly over-ride the standard BRB rules and there is enough wiggle language to make it VERY clear that the rules are optional. "can" and "may" are not absolutes. At official, non-GW sponsored events, the UL rules are not used or are severely modified to limit potentially broken and unfun options. Those rules are for playing scenarios in that book according to some, specific only to UL armies according to others, and optional alternative rules according to certain language clearly in the book. "Instead you should think of it as a toolbox, from which you can pick and choose what to use in any games of Warhammer that you play." does not say these are mandatory rules and that they over-ride the BRB.

The bottom line is this: The top players and guys running tournaments say: 50% heroes and 50% lords is an issue; triple and double summons points is an issue; allowing special characters to generate additional PD and DD is an issue; and especiallly allowing one to mix and match and cherry-pick the best units in TK and VC army books is an issue when VC are already a competitive army. If you showed up with Nagash, Arkhan, or Mannfred with an optimized mix and match VC and TK army or with an optimized mix and match VC and TK army, it will not be a fun or fair game for many common armies, tournament or casual.

SimaoSegunda
25-09-2014, 11:13
Wow, what a joke. Allow me to post the full quote for you: "New Warhammer Rules: These are new rules you can use in any game of Warhammer that allow you to recreate haunted landscapes and underground battles. This section also includes the Lore of Undeath, a new spell lore that allows yours wizards to wield the fell magics unleashed by Nagash."
The rules in question specifically pertain to the scenarios laid out in chapter 1.

And on the next page: "As you can see, this book represents much more that just a selection of scenarios and the special rules to go with them. Instead you should think of it as a toolbox, from which you can pick and choose what to use in any games of Warhammer that you play."

I will grant you that the "Choosing an Army" clause on page 21 does state this is an update of army composition rules, and should be taken hand in hand with the 2nd quote above.

That section you just quoted is not "the full quote", it's a totally different section of text on a totally different page. What I wrote, what you requoted from me, is the section on page 21, not page 3. I don't see how you fail to understand the meaning of "this section updates the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer". Not "Warhammer: End Times", or "Warhammer: Nagash", just Warhammer. "All armies use these rules for choosing an army". I don't really know how much clearer they could make it, it's there in black and white.

SexualPanda
25-09-2014, 15:51
What concerns me about this thread is how willing people are to accept all the new end times rules, without seeing what precedent they will be setting for whfb as a whole. The book
1. Makes tomb kings competitive again ( which is a good thing and perhaps is one of the main reasons why people advocate these new rules so highly)
but what it does to the game is
2. Lessens army diversity. If everyone's gets to pick and choose between books we are going to find ourselves with only a couple lists to choose from (chaos legions elf legions etc) and as a whole the fluffiness and diversity of the game is going to take a hit.
3. Hero hammer makes the game less tactical and enjoyable. (I've played a couple games with the 50% 50%, if I wanted this type of game style I would play 40k apocalypse.
4. While legions of the undead combines a mid tier and low tier army, by saying that undead legions is legal you also are saying the upcoming chaos legions will be legal too. (If you've ever played as or against warriors and daemons of chaos the absolute LAST thing they need is a buff. WOC daemon princes combined with beasts of burgle, skull cannons etc. of course this does only apply to tournament settings where people will be attempting to run only the best.
I really don't think the positives outweigh the negatives and as such we should use this book as an optional addition, and should be accepted in every casual game! (Why not). But in the sense of a tournament setting should be banned entirely, just to set a precedent for what could come.

aprilmanha
25-09-2014, 16:05
beasts of burgle,
They are here to steal your bonios!


and should be accepted in every casual game! (Why not). But in the sense of a tournament setting should be banned entirely, just to set a precedent for what could come.
I feel they should be used in the same way as 40K Apocalypse as you say, after all big game after big game is a bit monotonous, and world ending elements on one side are not a good idea in smaller games if you want everyone to have fun.

Horus38
25-09-2014, 18:54
That section you just quoted is not "the full quote", it's a totally different section of text on a totally different page. What I wrote, what you requoted from me, is the section on page 21, not page 3. I don't see how you fail to understand the meaning of "this section updates the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer". Not "Warhammer: End Times", or "Warhammer: Nagash", just Warhammer. "All armies use these rules for choosing an army". I don't really know how much clearer they could make it, it's there in black and white.

My apologies on the misquote, I noticed that just now upon re-reading it. But I stand by my point that the designers have intended this book to be a toolbox for players to utilize at their discretion, not a re-write of the 8th edition book.

SimaoSegunda
25-09-2014, 22:49
My apologies on the misquote, I noticed that just now upon re-reading it. But I stand by my point that the designers have intended this book to be a toolbox for players to utilize at their discretion, not a re-write of the 8th edition book.

Apology accepted, I'm sorry if I came across as snippy. It's hard to know exactly what the designers intended, and either of our opinions could be correct. I certainly agree, there are parts of the rules that clearly are intended as "here's a rule for XYZ, use it if you want". In my opinion, that doesn't include the army selection rules, but in your opinion it does. That's fair enough, I disagree, but I can see why you believe it.

At the end of the day, tournaments will make their own decisions, and non-tournament games are usually either friendly, in which case discuss it beforehand, or pick-up games.

Horus38
26-09-2014, 13:32
In my opinion, that doesn't include the army selection rules, but in your opinion it does.

Of everything in the book the army selection update does come across as the most "official" rules update. What I'm trying to stress though is that if my opponent was like "Nah man, THESE are the new rules that we have to play by!" then it's going to be a shorter conversation then "What type of game of WHFB should we play?"

zoltan
26-09-2014, 13:50
At the end of the day arguing wether the rules are an always use update or somethign to agree on makes no difference.

If its a tournament the TO will decide what they want to use anyway.
If its a friendly/pickup the ENTIRE game is optional, if someone says i dont want to play against a high elf army, which isnt optional, you have exactly the same options as you do if someone says im using 50% lords and undead legions. You both have to agree what you are both going to play or you dont get to play at all.

You can even use a different rules edition entirely etc...

Eldred91
27-09-2014, 15:45
No, it really doesn't. It says, and I quote: "This section updates the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer. Just as the Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard, all armies use these rules for choosing an army" (emphasis theirs). Furthermore, there is a section on page 3 that explicitly states "New Warhammer Rules: These are new rules you can use in any game of Warhammer..."

Note the use of the word "can" suggesting very much that it is an option.

CrystalSphere
27-09-2014, 21:54
I think they are official rules, something like 8.5 edition, so if yu want to play WHFB following GW latest rulebook, then right now that is the end times books. When 9th edition comes out, i expect undead to be merged and other changes in line with this 8.5 edition (ex. mount/rider combined profiles).

Players can choose to play 8th edition or older ones, or play 8.5, or wait until 9th edition comes out and refuse to play 8.5. However GW clearly wants you to buy and play with their end times stuff, which is their equivalent to an 8.5 edition. So if we assume the default agreement is "we play by latest rules no matter what they are", then by default you should be playing 8.5 "end times".

SimaoSegunda
27-09-2014, 22:08
Note the use of the word "can" suggesting very much that it is an option.

Hence the point I was (probably not very clearly) making, that some of the rules given in the book are obviously optional, the new Army Building rules seem to be far less so, with no such ambivalence.