PDA

View Full Version : Lore of fire council



EvanM
13-09-2014, 04:02
Kindleflame is a lore attribute that is barely used, but i have an idea for it.

1 lvl 4 wizard lore of fire, with 5 lore of fire wizards all lvl 1.

cast any magic missile or direct damage spell on a unit with your level 4, then all 5 wizards use 1 dice each to 1 dice to cast fireball on that unit, using kindleflame to gain a +d3 to their casting total. (interesting rule question here, does the d3 from kindleflame help when considering rolling a 1 or 2 unmodified casting total that automatically doesnt cast or not?)

could be interesting to try and use the lore attrib to actually get somewhere, and just imagining a line of wizards all shooting fireballs accross the field is a very interesting prospect :)

rolly_321
13-09-2014, 04:48
Rules as I understand them, and I could be wrong here, is that kindle flame only helps the wizard who cast the spell and not other fire wizards.

Anyway, Fire is one of my personal faves and highly underestimated IMO. In general, I think it works better on a L1 or L2 as back up than as your lord choice. Fireball is awesome due to its levels. Fairly straight forward to use, target a large unit and focus fireballs on it, first turn throw a few more dice than usual at it and your set. Alternatively, knock off regeneration when you need to.

If you want a lord, take earthing rod and something to add more omph. Throw nukes all day. For a laugh I'd like to try a Wood elf fire lore wizard lord in a forest for a potential +8 to cast... He'd be the most feared mage in Athel Loren.

EvanM
13-09-2014, 05:31
Rules as I understand them, and I could be wrong here, is that kindle flame only helps the wizard who cast the spell and not other fire wizards.


yeah no offense but thats wrong, it says any lore of fire MM or DD spell gets a +D3 to cast, not any spell from the same wizard. so as long as the other guys are also lore of fire you get a +d3 which is decent for multiplying out to 5 wizards.

what i was thinking was you cast fulminating flame cage on the enemy horde then proceed to cast 5 fireballs on them. they cant dispel all of them and thats a lot of hits.

this would be PERFECT for troll hordes.

thesoundofmusica
13-09-2014, 07:01
That's a good idea actually, you were due Evan ;)

In effect it would give you 5*d3 extra powerdice each magic phase.

Downsides would be the extra cost of 5 L1 wizards and it all depends on the L4 getting his spell off. And its just fireballs after all.

EvanM
13-09-2014, 07:09
the level 4 just has to get A SINGULAR SPELL off, which cant be hard, my favorite would be flame cage (also slows them down).

i was thinking of doiing this with empire because we have the cheapest wizards (that i know of) and 5 lvl1s + a lvl 4 costs about as much as a daemon prince or something equivalent.

yes, essentially 5d3 extra dice. hopefully 1 + d6 + d3 is enough to not be reliably dispelled on one dice, forcing the enemy to roll 2 dice if they want to stop it. or they have to throw everything at stopping flame cage.



basically i love the idea of councils, it seems fluffy and fun, and i wanted to throw this out there because i have literally never heard of anyone trying this.
oh i forgot! with empire you can get 2 more fireballs with the ruby ring and that other ring we get.

i came up with this idea as a response to horde units like witch elf horde or the troll horde in woc or ong. that or crypt horrors or anything else with regen.

thesoundofmusica
13-09-2014, 07:18
Round one scroll. After that it all depends how many dice you roll for winds... Remember 6 dice is the most you can roll to cast any one spell. Once your target hits combat Fireball is useless.

But I like it, sounds fun!

Edit: "not enough power" says a natural dice total of 1 or 2 means failure to cast despite bonuses from any source.

Wesser
13-09-2014, 08:08
Myeah

You still get broken concentration and even then D6 STR4 hits is only worth something on fast cavalry and lone wizards. A unit you want to chain-cast on really won't feel the pinch from that.

Indeed the idea of a coven of wizards throwing tonnes of fireballs have merits all by its own concept (I'd give it a whirl myself), but it's so far from being good as unlike light mages you have to expend dice for the synergy

liddan
13-09-2014, 08:11
the level 4 just has to get A SINGULAR SPELL off, which cant be hard, my favorite would be flame cage (also slows them down).

It has to be a direct damage or magic missile though so no plus from fulminating flame cage cause it's a hex.

I think you're just better off using a level 4 to cast spells. Every spell you cast with a level 1 is three less power than it could've been. I think most magic phases will end up with your opponent stopping your first one or two spells and then you're casting fireballs at 4+ and he dispels them easilly with a level 4. If your opponent is smart he will play around kindleflame when you invest 300+ points in level 1 wizards. Just like one would against little waaagh.

EvanM
13-09-2014, 17:13
Round one scroll. After that it all depends how many dice you roll for winds... Remember 6 dice is the most you can roll to cast any one spell. Once your target hits combat Fireball is useless.

But I like it, sounds fun!

Edit: "not enough power" says a natural dice total of 1 or 2 means failure to cast despite bonuses from any source.

yes but you get a DICE bonus of d3, though, so its confusing right? obviously wizard level doesnt count.

oh and the number of wizards doesnt matter, i am revising this: how about 1 lvl4 and 2 lvl 2s, then you get a little more bonuses to cast.

see this would work a lot better if kindleflame gave you +d3 per each spell cast on the target (so then chaining would end up giving you like 5d3 on a single casting total)

liddan
13-09-2014, 18:13
What I meant was that to activate kindleflame the original spell has to be a direct damage or magic missile so you won't get +D3 casting total on a fireball after having cast fulminating flame cage.

Still dangerous to one-dice spells since a 1 or 2 is always a fail even if you have level 2 and +D3 from kindleflame.

Having said that I do think lore of fire is underestimated but more for level 3 fireballs, flame cage and flaming sword of rhuin. Not so much for kindleflame :)

EvanM
13-09-2014, 18:29
yeah i didnt realize it, but i do love lore of fire.

but you could still make advantage of kindleflame if you are trying to shoot a few boosted fireballs at the enemy deathstar first turn.

it would still be interesting, though, because i dont think anyone would expect it

Djekar
13-09-2014, 22:05
Lore of fire is an especially good lore as avoidance type lists become more prevalent. And fireball is always in style anyways. I think that this idea will work fine, but you'll be lacking some good combat support, so you'll have to make up for that in other parts of your list.

EvanM
13-09-2014, 23:25
against wood elves, fireball spam could be awesome. you wouldnt need combat support because they wont attack you in close combat. flame cage to keep the teleporting unit from moving would work.

decker_cky
14-09-2014, 00:27
against wood elves, fireball spam could be awesome. you wouldnt need combat support because they wont attack you in close combat. flame cage to keep the teleporting unit from moving would work.

The issue is that 2d6 S4 hits will kill an awful lot of wood elf units outright (waywatchers, wild riders or eagles). That means kindleflame really doesn't benefit you.

EvanM
14-09-2014, 00:56
The issue is that 2d6 S4 hits will kill an awful lot of wood elf units outright (waywatchers, wild riders or eagles). That means kindleflame really doesn't benefit you.

against wood elves: divide fire between tiny units, kills em off

against everyone else: just blast the crap out of deathstar unit with tons of fireballs and use flame cage to slow em down. kindleflame can help you get a lot more spells off and either you get several fireballs off (they save their dice for flame cage) or flame cage (they dispel you fireballs)

Cynigher
14-09-2014, 01:01
Wouldn't the D3 only be useful to a certain extent because if they have a level 4 they're getting +4 anyway and the max bonus you get is 4 on d3+1. So it's essentially just who roles higher on one dice? obviously less dispel dice than power but for some of them a level 4 can dispel on one anyway

EvanM
14-09-2014, 01:16
Wouldn't the D3 only be useful to a certain extent because if they have a level 4 they're getting +4 anyway and the max bonus you get is 4 on d3+1. So it's essentially just who roles higher on one dice? obviously less dispel dice than power but for some of them a level 4 can dispel on one anyway

point is, otherwise youd need to roll 2 dice to cast a spell that otherwise the opponent could dispel reliably on 1 dice, but now it helps you draw more dispel dice.

idk it could be helpful

Sexiest_hero
14-09-2014, 02:58
You know when you're not saying something sucks, it seems you can come up with great Ideas.......

EvanM
14-09-2014, 03:17
You know when you're not saying something sucks, it seems you can come up with great Ideas.......

is that supposed to be a complement? lol.

im just pointing out a synergy that exists thats often ignored. i bet sometimes people forget to even use kindleflame because it rarely comes into play.

Bigman
14-09-2014, 12:02
is that supposed to be a complement? lol.

im just pointing out a synergy that exists thats often ignored. i bet sometimes people forget to even use kindleflame because it rarely comes into play.

I have thought of this before...but your idea is tempting me to try it.

Mainly with empire as they have cheap wizards to cast it on...but even HE would work.

I love a boosted fireball.

To those who think it's only str 4... It's auto hits.

Level 4 casts easy spell (b.head...does say 2/3 hits)

Rest of wizards, 3 x d6 (say two get stopped).

Looking at 8-10 ands that's not boosting at all.

Against average infantry that's about 6/7 wounds.

Against a tgh 6 monster that's probably a wound or two on a good round.

It's enough. It's the psych of it that works (oh I'm taking wounds, I need to move forward)


I like it :-), although id go for a few less wizards, a power stone, forbidden rod and start boosting turn one...

That would allow for 3/4 max level fireballs in a round...9 / 12 d6 str 4 hits!

rolly_321
14-09-2014, 14:25
IMO a council is going to be over kill. Remember kindle flame is dictated by tagging the unit you're firing at not by the number of wizards. That means you have to focus fire, unless the unit is ridiculous like 200 skaven slaves or something, the fire council will have to swap targets and start again.

I think a Level 4 and Level 2 would hold their own pretty well, since you basically have two level fours. It also leaves room for say a BSB. Give your level four a power stone and use all bar one or two dice round one casting a tier 3 fireball or boosted flame storm. You either get rid of an early dispell or you're now set to dominate the next magic phase.

King Arthur
15-09-2014, 18:21
You could also use ruby ring of ruin to help

Tuttivillus
15-09-2014, 20:13
Kindleflame is a lore attribute that is barely used, but i have an idea for it.

1 lvl 4 wizard lore of fire, with 5 lore of fire wizards all lvl 1.

cast any magic missile or direct damage spell on a unit with your level 4, then all 5 wizards use 1 dice each to 1 dice to cast fireball on that unit, using kindleflame to gain a +d3 to their casting total. (interesting rule question here, does the d3 from kindleflame help when considering rolling a 1 or 2 unmodified casting total that automatically doesnt cast or not?)

could be interesting to try and use the lore attrib to actually get somewhere, and just imagining a line of wizards all shooting fireballs accross the field is a very interesting prospect :)

Or minimalistic version Lvl2 Fire with dispell scroll and Ruby Ring.

rolly_321
16-09-2014, 11:57
For minimum version (with my empire) I like a L1 with a powerstone. Then a level 4 with shadow. These two lores work perfectly together I find because Shadow is more of late game lore (buffing/debuffing troops generally work only once they're in combat), also withering can make up for fires abundance strength 4.

With a powerstone you can easily throw out a maxed out fireball turn 1 and I've never seen a game without a viable target. Generally a large unit or a monster. So far he has ALWAYS made his points back.

Josfer
16-09-2014, 17:58
3.5 S4 hits are 2.4 wounds on T3 without armor or with 6+ AS. Any unit of 10 can easily eat at least two, if they don't panic (quite probable) they can eat nearly the full council (given something gets dispelled). With a 2+ AS or T5 the unit only has to be 5 big/W5 to need the full council for being completely wiped out statistically.
Always remember, that you can cast a fireball, roll 1 hit and even botch the wound quite likely.
It's huge in the chaff war (distribute evenly between two units of fast cav) and even knight units, tough chariots or smaller monsters are good targets.
And it's mainly only 5-6 power dice (depending on if you use ruby ring) and not a HUGE points investment (besides the lvl 4 you want anyways) AND you can get all the nice smaller arcane items like dispell scroll, staff of channeling, etc.

Mech87
19-09-2014, 09:03
I believe with the current +lvl to cast having two lvl 4 wizards would be better than a single lvl4 and several lvl 1's. Use flaming head to sneak in a hit on a unit, if your oppenet waste dispell dice on it, nice you got several far more powerfull spells +2 Fireballs. If he don't you just got +1d3 when casting on that unit. :)

rolly_321
26-09-2014, 02:26
Yes, 3.5 hits isn't all that.. but why would you only cast the smallest fireball unless you are specifically aiming at chaff? The effectiveness of an average of 7 or 10.5 hits can reduce a decent sized unit of troops rapidly.

After you get at least one spell off against that unit, those buffed versions are by far the cheapest ranged magic missiles of all the magic lores.

This weekend I'm having another play with my woodelves and I'm taking my Spellweaver with fire, he'll sit in a unit of 30 Hagbane Guard in a poison forest. Stating with +5 to cast then adding D3 he always starts with off throwing around the second biggest or largest fireballs. Glade guard with flaming sword is also just crazy if you get that spell.

Darnok
26-09-2014, 07:09
Level 4 casts easy spell (b.head...does say 2/3 hits)

Rest of wizards, 3 x d6 (say two get stopped).

Looking at 8-10 ands that's not boosting at all.

Against average infantry that's about 6/7 wounds.

Against a tgh 6 monster that's probably a wound or two on a good round.

And you invested how many points to do so?

This all is based on "concentrate fire" and "use many fire wizards". And quite frankly: for a situational combo with a huge investment in points... nah. If you want to make "pew, pew" during your games, I'd suggest 40K instead. ;)

Ossirian
02-10-2014, 07:48
If you roll a 1/2 on the first die then a 2 on the second it's not a failed cast. I'd argue that the d3 is a second power dice. You don't need the big powered up spell. You can just use 2 dice to cast the first one. People always have less dispel dice than you. Eg 8 dice;
1, 2d6 bolts of burning off l4
2, d6+d3 l1 fb
3, d6+d3 l1 fb
4, d6+d3 l1 fb
5, d6+d3 l1 fb
6, 2d6+d3 l4 l2 fb


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Josfer
02-10-2014, 12:19
Well you roll against D6+4 with D6+D3+1 which gives you quite bad odds. And as your enemy has less dispell dice he'll even probably get the low rolling ones. He'll at least have 2 and at max have 6 dispel dice, so an average of 4. Chances are good he dispells at least 3 of your l1 casts. Now you deal 5D6 dmg for...how many points? If you don't get 8 PD in the first place or have to switch targets probably even less. If everything is in combat you don't get anything.

And 5D6 S4 hits is probably about 10 wounds...not that impressive. I doubt you make your points back.