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Invincible Sword Goddess
15-09-2014, 12:25
So my brother is now playing the Undead Legion army list. His army always looks something like this:

Nagash
Wight King BSB with defensive items
25% core filled entirely by TK skeleton archers
A heirotitan and a casket of souls to boost Nagash's casting
As many morghasts and mortis engines as he can afford.

His tactics are to sit back and do the following:

Summon huge units of zombies right in-front of any knights who might be able to charge his main lines.
Summon a unit of Sepulcher Stalkers, banshee, or terrorgeist right behind my most expensive unit and immediately shoot. Then follow me around shooting and march blocking and never letting me get the charge off until he is almost guaranteed to win.
Summon chariots right next to my trebuchets or clusters of peasent bowmen.
Summon units of hex wraiths next to any clusters of unengaged knights.
Shoot to pieces any yeomen, Pegasus knights, or lone characters who advance past the main line, otherwise just sit 24'' away and outshoot my bowmen.
At the very end of the game move the morghasts and mortis engines forward to devastate anything I happen to have left alive in midfield.

So far this tactic seems unbeatable. Not only have I not won a game yet, but when we add up VP he normally has about 10x as many as I do, as I rarely actually kill anything except for a few units of skeletons and maybe if I get lucky with trebuchets a mortis engine or the heirotitan.

Any advice?

Lord Shadowheart
15-09-2014, 13:26
Double trebuchet, aim both at Nagash to attempt to soften him up a bit.
Feedback scroll is pretty effective at dropping him, watched someone kill him off with that a couple weekends ago, after he'd been softened up a bit.
Theres always the infamous Heroic Killing Blow lord setup (asf sword/+3 attacks sword and virtue of heroism) that you could attempt to kill him with.

Horus38
15-09-2014, 14:02
Feedback scroll is pretty effective at dropping him, watched someone kill him off with that a couple weekends ago, after he'd been softened up a bit.

Hah, that is full of win! :)

Invincible Sword Goddess
15-09-2014, 14:59
Last game I had all of that. HkB never got close to him, feedback scroll did a single wound which was healed in the next round, trebuchets only managed to hit him and get through his ward once, inflicting a measly two wounds.

russellmoo
15-09-2014, 16:03
You might have to go with a lot of pegasus knights. Maybe even a bret Lord on peg with hkb. The other thing would be to have your peasant bowman take skirmish as an upgrade. They then sit in front of your knights to prevent him from blocking their movement by summoning chaff.

Maybe even go full out with dispel shenanigans. Take a dispel scroll, the silver mirror, the frog scroll and a feedback scroll.

Invincible Sword Goddess
15-09-2014, 16:28
What do the pegasus knights actually do though? They go down fast to skeleton archers, and aren't terribly great in CC either. They work all right against a normal army, but when 25 percent is unbreakable archers that ignore to hit penalties I cant see how they will make their points back. Pretty sure even the heirotitans and the mortis engines will beat equal points of pegasi in CC.

Muad'Dib
15-09-2014, 16:59
Don't play versus Nagash in games of less than like, I dunno, 4000-5000 points? Possibly even more.
When solutions to something consist off "Cross your fingers for HKB" or "Cross your fingers for trebuchet hits" then it seems to me that the game stopped being tactically meaningful...

King Arthur
15-09-2014, 18:18
Right this combo is cheap and effective Bret lord HKB heartwood lance other tricksters shard potion of speed and potion of foolhardiness pegasus shield turn 2 snipe I believe a 55% chance to kill him pretty good odds 263pts. Seems to work for me. (2.5 hits 0.416 HKB 0.416wound then re roll so 0.416 + 0.278 HKB= 0.693777 then 4++ re rolling successes 0.75 get through 0.52 not bad).

Invincible Sword Goddess
15-09-2014, 19:31
How do you have three enchanted items?

EvanM
15-09-2014, 22:58
Heroic killing blow lord is your only way to kill nagash, fly him in on a pegasus and HKB him

until that happens, you have more of a need for longbowmen. id take 8 units of 10 longbows, and heres why: with lore of undeath, tons of new random units will show up everywhere. they will be smaller than usual. you need as much shooting as you can to kill these units off to keep the lance charge lanes free.

SteveW
15-09-2014, 23:15
Heroic killing blow lord is your only way to kill nagash, fly him in on a pegasus and HKB him

.

It's the simplest way, not the only way.

EvanM
15-09-2014, 23:30
or as many trebuchets as you can get shooting him in the face.

Invincible Sword Goddess
16-09-2014, 06:39
Heroic killing blow lord is your only way to kill nagash, fly him in on a pegasus and HKB him

until that happens, you have more of a need for longbowmen. id take 8 units of 10 longbows, and heres why: with lore of undeath, tons of new random units will show up everywhere. they will be smaller than usual. you need as much shooting as you can to kill these units off to keep the lance charge lanes free.

That's what I am thinking. Seems like kind of a lousy (and unreliable) way to win the game. But as Nagash is also going to kill the enemy lord simultaneously I am sure I can rationalize it as some sort of heroic act of martyrdom on the part of my general to give the rest of the army a chance.

I think the bowmen are honestly kind of lame against the undead. They just don't have the firepower to actually wipe out large units (one casting by Nagash can raise well over 100 zombies) especially when backed up by mortis engines and Nagash healing them, and they are completely outclassed by the TK archers due to the arrows of asaph (sp?) ignoring moving, long range, stake walls, and skirmishers, as well as being able to shoot directly through other units with no penalty (which I still think is BS twisting of the TLoS rules, but what can you do?).




or as many trebuchets as you can get shooting him in the face.

Trebuchets are nice, but I am pretty sure that even four trebuchets have less than a 50% chance of killing him even firing on him the whole game. 7 Wounds and a 4+ ward save, plus he can heal himself. Still, they have a shot, but unfortunately the last game my opponent new this and made sure to summon chariots in a position to take them out in short order. Remember, trebuchet's can't move or shoot at things within 12'', so once he gets that spell off they are doomed, and without me being very quick to move some units in the way he can just keep on going through all of them.

EvanM
16-09-2014, 16:56
Can you get more than one heroic killing blow lord?

If so, mount up 10 of these guys in a unit and charge.

If not, you may be screwed.

However, another thing, you may want to take epic numbers of men at arms and bowmen: men at arms can tarpit anything effectively and if you concentrate your fire you can probably kill 1 undead unit a turn with 50 bowmen or maybe 100 bowmen.

Don't shoot the z+mbies, in fact let the z+mbies charge your bowmen or men at arms even.

The only way you win is if you tarpit long enough for a lord with HKB to fly in and luckily kill nagash. Knights are probably useless against undead since you can't break them and they have enough bodies to hold up even 3 lances charging in against a single zombie horde

N00B
16-09-2014, 17:49
But flanking with 6 knights at least removes the rank bonus and adds a touch more crumble. Not huge vs units of 60 but add charge bonus and flank bonus to combat res as well and it should knock a turn or more off combat.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
17-09-2014, 08:43
1) Double Trebs + Level 4 heavens. Shoot and magic that **** down. Trebs are unreliable, but he's on an arachnarok base...that thing is is like shooting the broad side of a barn. Tough to miss. Remember that you DO NOT have to place the template in the centre of the base. It's better to place it on the side of the model, so that any 2" or 4" scatter in greater than 50% of directions will still hit.

But more importantly, with Trebs + ranged magic you're actually probably outranging him. He can raise all he wants, but if you're threatening him with your ranged output then he's going to have to come to you, which gives you an advantage in how you react. Dance around him, come at him from behind, encircle his lines.

2) HKB lord, as others have said. ASF, 1+ rerollable, with the blessing. Won't keep him fully safe but it's your ace in the hole.

3) Two dispel scrolls. Silver mirror on one mage, dispel scroll on the other. Shutting down one key magic phase is great. Shutting down two is amazing.

3) REGINALD THE BOLD!! This is my friend's build and I absolutely love (and loathe) this guy.

Paladin, pegasus, questing vow, shield, great weapon, flail, dragonhelm, gauntlet of the duel, insignia of the quest.

Gauntlet of the duel + pegasus makes him a terrifying mage hunter. He can choose between Flail and GW depending on whether he wants the strength or the durability of a 2+ armour save. But the real key here is the insignia of the quest. The way it works is that the first time he would be slain he IMMEDIATELY gets to make a 3++ save to stay alive on one wound. This is AFTER other attacks and ward saves (DH or blessing). So even if Nagash HKBs him 6 times over he need only make one 3++ save to stand back up and lay down on the big man with all those GW attacks.

4) Knock out his support pieces! Throw pegs into the casket. Throw lances into the hierotitan.

Invincible Sword Goddess
17-09-2014, 15:08
1) Double Trebs + Level 4 heavens. Shoot and magic that **** down. Trebs are unreliable, but he's on an arachnarok base...that thing is is like shooting the broad side of a barn. Tough to miss. Remember that you DO NOT have to place the template in the centre of the base. It's better to place it on the side of the model, so that any 2" or 4" scatter in greater than 50% of directions will still hit.

1) But more importantly, with Trebs + ranged magic you're actually probably outranging him. He can raise all he wants, but if you're threatening him with your ranged output then he's going to have to come to you, which gives you an advantage in how you react. Dance around him, come at him from behind, encircle his lines.

2) HKB lord, as others have said. ASF, 1+ rerollable, with the blessing. Won't keep him fully safe but it's your ace in the hole.

3) Two dispel scrolls. Silver mirror on one mage, dispel scroll on the other. Shutting down one key magic phase is great. Shutting down two is amazing.

3) REGINALD THE BOLD!! This is my friend's build and I absolutely love (and loathe) this guy.

Paladin, pegasus, questing vow, shield, great weapon, flail, dragonhelm, gauntlet of the duel, insignia of the quest.

Gauntlet of the duel + pegasus makes him a terrifying mage hunter. He can choose between Flail and GW depending on whether he wants the strength or the durability of a 2+ armour save. But the real key here is the insignia of the quest. The way it works is that the first time he would be slain he IMMEDIATELY gets to make a 3++ save to stay alive on one wound. This is AFTER other attacks and ward saves (DH or blessing). So even if Nagash HKBs him 6 times over he need only make one 3++ save to stand back up and lay down on the big man with all those GW attacks.

4) Knock out his support pieces! Throw pegs into the casket. Throw lances into the hierotitan.

Thank you very much for the detailed reply!

1: Didn't think about trying to aim for a different spot on his base. Where is the optimal spot? Do you have a link to a write up of the math for optimal template placement? Nagash has a 36'' range for most of his spell, the table is only 4x6. Pretty hard to outrange him unless I sit in the very corner. I have never much cared for lore of heavens, but it might be worth a shot!

2: I tried a HKB lord, problem is Nagash just has too dang many models in the way to get into CC with him. I could try a Pegasus, although I have a feeling massed archer fire and the caskets light of souls would take him down before he got close. Also, 1+ rerollable means jack against nagash, WS 7, A6, S8, d3 wounds, + possible HKB. I don't think any brettonian build will surive a round of CC with that without supreme luck. I haven't had a character survive that yet, even with a gromril helm and grail shield. (1+ rerollable AS 4+ ward, still killed twice over in one round)

3a: Yeah, I did just that. Silver mirror and a feedback scroll. Stopped two spells, did one wound which he promptly healed. It was not enough, and when the damsels carrying died they gave up a lot of VP without earning much in return.

3b: Cool build. Are you sure the 3++ works that way? I looked at the item, and to me it looks like he would have to make a separate 3+ save for EACH killing blow. Still, might be worth a shot.

4: Yeah, Pegasus into the casket has been a stable of all my plans. The problem is they tend to get several hundred arrows shot at them on the way over there (remember, 25% of his army is archers who ignore all shooting penalties) and often don't make it, and even when they do I am still behind in the VP department and the pegasi cost a lot more than the casket. I have yet to be able to get a charge off on the heirotitan as he is standing in the back next to nagash behind a wall of several hundred summoned zombies and flanked by several morgeists and mortis engines.

N00B
17-09-2014, 16:48
Have you considered taking some allies? This would potentially give you more access to war machines to take down Nagash or at least some lore of light to try and banish him. Normally i would frown on this, but i would also frown on taking nagash to a friendly game so I see this as being more than fair.

DarKolia
17-09-2014, 17:18
Hi
you can take more than one HKB lord but each other cost you 10 more points and you cannot go over 100pts
It would be still possible to make a unit of 5 HKB lord on pegasi...

King Arthur
17-09-2014, 17:24
How do you have three enchanted items? My bad you are right.

N00B
17-09-2014, 17:44
Hi
you can take more than one HKB lord but each other cost you 10 more points and you cannot go over 100pts
It would be still possible to make a unit of 5 HKB lord on pegasi...

Can they be a unit though? I thought characters couldnt join anything that flew?

StygianBeach
17-09-2014, 19:01
But more importantly, with Trebs + ranged magic you're actually probably outranging him. He can raise all he wants, but if you're threatening him with your ranged output then he's going to have to come to you, which gives you an advantage in how you react. Dance around him, come at him from behind, encircle his lines.

Have you tried castling?

Put everything on the back edge and let him walk your way. Use you Lord to threaten any Terrogheist that come after your Trebs.

Invincible Sword Goddess
17-09-2014, 20:18
Have you tried castling?

Put everything on the back edge and let him walk your way. Use you Lord to threaten any Terrogheist that come after your Trebs.

If I castle he more or less wins by default. Summoned units are worth 0 VP, so he can just keep summoning shooting units right behind me, meaning he gets atleast two rounds of shooting before I even have a chance to charge them unless I go with some very weird deployment. Even if I win, I lose.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
17-09-2014, 20:25
Thank you very much for the detailed reply!

1: Didn't think about trying to aim for a different spot on his base. Where is the optimal spot? Do you have a link to a write up of the math for optimal template placement? Nagash has a 36'' range for most of his spell, the table is only 4x6. Pretty hard to outrange him unless I sit in the very corner. I have never much cared for lore of heavens, but it might be worth a shot!

2: I tried a HKB lord, problem is Nagash just has too dang many models in the way to get into CC with him. I could try a Pegasus, although I have a feeling massed archer fire and the caskets light of souls would take him down before he got close. Also, 1+ rerollable means jack against nagash, WS 7, A6, S8, d3 wounds, + possible HKB. I don't think any brettonian build will surive a round of CC with that without supreme luck. I haven't had a character survive that yet, even with a gromril helm and grail shield. (1+ rerollable AS 4+ ward, still killed twice over in one round)

3a: Yeah, I did just that. Silver mirror and a feedback scroll. Stopped two spells, did one wound which he promptly healed. It was not enough, and when the damsels carrying died they gave up a lot of VP without earning much in return.

3b: Cool build. Are you sure the 3++ works that way? I looked at the item, and to me it looks like he would have to make a separate 3+ save for EACH killing blow. Still, might be worth a shot.

4: Yeah, Pegasus into the casket has been a stable of all my plans. The problem is they tend to get several hundred arrows shot at them on the way over there (remember, 25% of his army is archers who ignore all shooting penalties) and often don't make it, and even when they do I am still behind in the VP department and the pegasi cost a lot more than the casket. I have yet to be able to get a charge off on the heirotitan as he is standing in the back next to nagash behind a wall of several hundred summoned zombies and flanked by several morgeists and mortis engines.



1) lore of heavens is one of the best utility Lores in Warhammer. It gets short shrift because it lacks the big bomb spells in death or shadow. Every spell in there is useful against most opponents. It's also a very inexpensive lore, meaning you can throw more dice with less risk of miscasts blowing up lances.

1b) placing it in the direct centre means scatters to either side will often narrowly miss with the high s hit. Placing to the middle-edge means you will hit on a hit, or on rolls of 2 (or even 4 with Nagash) in about 182 degrees or so (since scatters along the edge will still hit)

Also useful is placing on an edge where small scatters off will still hit valuable targets.

2) HKB lord is more of a hail marry. You're hoping to whittle him down with other attacks.

And that's really what this is about...whittling. He's got too many wounds to down in a shot. You need to hit him from multiple sources to bring him down.

2b) feedback scroll is meh. Dispel scroll is where it's at. Just dont waste them too early. Try and drop them on big spells where he's using a lot of dice, so that you can use yours to shut down the rest of the phase.

3) yes you're right. I was going from memory based on what the friend had said. Against that first HKB you first get your 5++ blessing save. Failing that, you get your 3++ insignia save. Two kicks at the bucket. From thereon out you get a 3++ instead if the 5++. Pretty solid for 30 points.

4) yeah it's tough. The key is multicharges and multicombats. Hit an undead with three lances and it will explode from CR. Then overrun into another unit fighting against pegs or a solo pally and fight that combat as well.

Finally, remember that you probably outrange him. Yeah he can summon units at 36", but he can't earn points at that distance. With trebs and magic you CAN. Harmonically converge your trebs. Drop comets in front of his lines. Knock out his casket with trebs and amber spear. It's been done to me time and time again.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

DarKolia
18-09-2014, 05:54
Can they be a unit though? I thought characters couldnt join anything that flew?

Nope they can't you're right... That means 5 charge tests and no support attacks
However 3 charging with the other trickster shard should ensure .75 killing blow so 5 should be perfect (but you should not miss charge with the OTS)

BlackPawl
18-09-2014, 11:15
Can't you do the trick to summon undead units too? Just take a damsel and put some zombies in his way.

Invincible Sword Goddess
18-09-2014, 12:25
Can't you do the trick to summon undead units too? Just take a damsel and put some zombies in his way.

i can. But Nagash triples both the range and the size of the units summoned, so it would be really pathetic in comparison. I also dont have anything like the casket or heirotitan boosting my casting. And even if I did, he gets points by summoning big shooty units directly behind or flanking my most expensive or vulnerable units, he doest really need to get to me to win.


Also, duplicate virtues cost double, then triple, then quadruple, etc. the cost, not plus ten, so you can only have two hkb lords at max and one of them will be almost naked otherwise.

SteveW
18-09-2014, 18:42
i can. But Nagash triples both the range and the size of the units summoned, so it would be really pathetic in comparison. I also dont have anything like the casket or heirotitan boosting my casting. And even if I did, he gets points by summoning big shooty units directly behind or flanking my most expensive or vulnerable units, he doest really need to get to me to win.


Also, duplicate virtues cost double, then triple, then quadruple, etc. the cost, not plus ten, so you can only have two hkb lords at max and one of them will be almost naked otherwise.


Casket, titan, and nagash are half your points in a 2.5k game. So they get an advantage in casting at the cost of everything else

BlackPawl
18-09-2014, 19:26
i can. But Nagash triples both the range and the size of the units summoned, so it would be really pathetic in comparison. I also dont have anything like the casket or heirotitan boosting my casting. And even if I did, he gets points by summoning big shooty units directly behind or flanking my most expensive or vulnerable units, he doest really need to get to me to win.


Also, duplicate virtues cost double, then triple, then quadruple, etc. the cost, not plus ten, so you can only have two hkb lords at max and one of them will be almost naked otherwise.



For the Points of Nagash you can get many damsels with arcane toys. Comparing a single damsel to Nagash is worthless, but if you have one or two Level 4 and 5 lev 1, each with an arcane item, you will have a better Magic Phase like him.

So you can have a dispel scroll on a Level 1, the scroll which gives you +1d6 to dispel on a lev 4, maybe a power Stone on the other lev 4 for a Magic Phase with low rolls for the winds, and some other toys like the item which gives you d6 power dice for d3 wound on a lev 1.

So you will have maybe 12 Magic Levels together, which should be enough to have a few good spells. Of course you can't do every spell in every Magic Phase, but you have the flexibility to do many nasty things.

So thing of this: in one Magic Phase you use the +d6 power dice (killing one lev. 1 damsel), so you have 3d6 power dice against his d6 dice. If this is not enough you can use the power Stone too, which gives you another two power dice. Should be a good Phase to get 3 or 4 good spells through.
And you don't have to create more undead units than Nagash, he is better. You only have to create some units in his way, let him kill this Units to get to you, this units are 0 points worth. In the meantime cast some comet in his way or kill his monsters with the amber spear (S10).


I don't have my rulebook with me, but there are some nice combos with arcane items if you have enough wizards.


Shield your catapults with units. The scream is only 8" long, so put units in his way - large units of bowman with the palisades to negate the chariots.

As others have said use Pegasus Knights from the hero section, they can have a 2+ rerollable save and bowfire from sceletton warrior will not go through his armor.

Invincible Sword Goddess
18-09-2014, 23:52
Casket, titan, and nagash are half your points in a 2.5k game. So they get an advantage in casting at the cost of everything else

Sure do. But Nagash typically summons between 500 and a 1k points worth of models PER TURN so that easily makes their points back. In addition, summoned units are worth 0 VP so this tactic easily allows him to win by attrition.


For the Points of Nagash you can get many damsels with arcane toys. Comparing a single damsel to Nagash is worthless, but if you have one or two Level 4 and 5 lev 1, each with an arcane item, you will have a better Magic Phase like him.

So you can have a dispel scroll on a Level 1, the scroll which gives you +1d6 to dispel on a lev 4, maybe a power Stone on the other lev 4 for a Magic Phase with low rolls for the winds, and some other toys like the item which gives you d6 power dice for d3 wound on a lev 1.

So you will have maybe 12 Magic Levels together, which should be enough to have a few good spells. Of course you can't do every spell in every Magic Phase, but you have the flexibility to do many nasty things.

So thing of this: in one Magic Phase you use the +d6 power dice (killing one lev. 1 damsel), so you have 3d6 power dice against his d6 dice. If this is not enough you can use the power Stone too, which gives you another two power dice. Should be a good Phase to get 3 or 4 good spells through.
And you don't have to create more undead units than Nagash, he is better. You only have to create some units in his way, let him kill this Units to get to you, this units are 0 points worth. In the meantime cast some comet in his way or kill his monsters with the amber spear (S10).


I don't have my rulebook with me, but there are some nice combos with arcane items if you have enough wizards.


Shield your catapults with units. The scream is only 8" long, so put units in his way - large units of bowman with the palisades to negate the chariots.

As others have said use Pegasus Knights from the hero section, they can have a 2+ rerollable save and bowfire from sceletton warrior will not go through his armor.


I actually tried having a ton of damsels last game. It helped slow Nagash down, but in the end it wasn't enough and they yielded a lot of VP when they died without contributing much more than one use items.


Do the palisades actually do anything to negate chariots in this edition? I thought it was just -1 to hit, which the impact hits ignore. The peasants are almost certain to break, and then unless I am at a really weird angle he will almost certainly overrun into the trebuchet and destroy it before I can respond.


Hero mounted Pegasus eh? That is brilliant! Wish I had thought of it sooner, Thanks!

DarKolia
19-09-2014, 17:03
I think you are right about virtues it is a long time I have not played Brettonian and last time I thought about several Paladins on Foot (the 10 points virtue therefore +10...) I should have checked...

What I am (pretty) sure of is that palissade negates impact hits... (I hope that I do not make another mistake... I do not have the book with me...)

Invincible Sword Goddess
19-09-2014, 18:48
I think you are right about virtues it is a long time I have not played Brettonian and last time I thought about several Paladins on Foot (the 10 points virtue therefore +10...) I should have checked...

What I am (pretty) sure of is that palissade negates impact hits... (I hope that I do not make another mistake... I do not have the book with me...)

I know it did in 6-7E, but in the 8E errata they changed it to just being a regular fence, which AFAIK, doesn't do anything against impact hits.

N00B
19-09-2014, 20:39
Ah, well I should check that as well. I read the faq the other day for Brets but didn't remember that

bigbiggles
20-09-2014, 20:17
The chariots will need dangerous terrain checks. That sometimes hurts