PDA

View Full Version : Space Wolves Watch Packs?



Theophilis
17-09-2014, 04:28
So, I've recently finished reading An Unremembered Empire and today read the synopsis of Raptor here: http://www.amazon.com/Raptor-The-Horus-Heresy-Thorpe/dp/1849708746/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1410735929&sr=8-2&keywords=raptor+gav+thorpe
And while I liked the wolves characters, does this concept of watch packs bug anyone else? When were they sent? What exactly were they supposed to do? I know they are their to "sanction" the primarchs in case they join Horus, but really one pack against a primarch? What is a pack supposed to do against Sanguinius or the Lion or the Khan? That's not even taking into account that only loyal primarchs are likely going to allow them to get close enough to strike anyways. And the fact that one is sent to Corax is astounding. The only primarch confirmed to survive Istvaan, who then returns to Terra and the Emperor himself gives access to super secret information to help fight the rebellion gets a pack sent after him. And I'm also hearing that Dorn is going to get sent a pack as well, on Terra.

I apologize if this seems a little too much like a rant, it's just that I can't logically answer the questions that this brings up. And I'm not even trying bring that whole debate of whether or not the Rout are the official legion executioners or only in their own heads bs in here, so please keep it down about that.

Well now that I think about it, I want to read about the packs sent to the Lion and the Khan, just for the laughs.

MajorWesJanson
17-09-2014, 04:51
At the time they were sent out, aren't Dorn and Russ both on Terra? It's probably more a sop to their combined paranoia at the moment that they are sent out to look after everyone, even Dorn. There is probably an Imperial fists watch unit for Russ in exchange.

Perrin
17-09-2014, 07:56
They were sent out when Malcador found out about Magnus, not the Heresy. Hence why the Blood Angels had one before going to Signus Prime, which was almost slightly pre-Heresy or at least the same time as Istvaan.

Imo it's more of a tripwire measure. No one expects the Watch Packs to be able to take down a Primarch, but they are there as a physical reminder of the Emperor's Decree, and if they are killed they won't be able to send reports back to Malcador, so he'll know something is up. Obviously they didn't know that the traitors could block communications without the others knowing (Lorgar and the Custodes).

Saying that, is it beyond the realm of possibility that a lone Space Wolf could escape an ambush/slaughter and make his way to the engine decks with a big ol' box of explosives? Even a Primarch would be lucky to survive a warp core explosion.

Insane Psychopath
17-09-2014, 08:50
Check out Fear to Tread in regard to the Blood Angels side of thing. There also a audio where a Space Wolves pack is sent to the Alpha Legion - Hunter Moon
http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/hunters-thief-cd.html

Khan the only one not to get a Space Wolves pack with him being further out & the last to know of the Heresy, which we see in the Scar's novel
http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/scars-trade-paperback.html

Kiro
17-09-2014, 11:21
And while I liked the wolves characters, does this concept of watch packs bug anyone else?

The concept irked a few people, on here, at least. Aside from the flaws you've pointed out, it perpetuates the "Space Wolves are Space Marines +1" nonsense. As Insane Psychopath said, you should check out Hunter's Moon to see how well received the pack was by the Alpha Legion.

Morrslieb
17-09-2014, 12:32
And the fact that one is sent to Corax is astounding. The only primarch confirmed to survive Istvaan,

Current C:SM states that Vulkan was against Guilliman's Codex Astartes thus he certainly survived slaughter on Istvaan.

AndrewGPaul
17-09-2014, 13:49
Well yes, that obvious "now", but at the time, not so much.

Karhedron
17-09-2014, 14:29
Whether the idea is believable really depends on the true status of the Space Wolves. We have not really had a novel from the Wolves point of view yet, even "Prospero Burns" is told from the pov of an adopted outsider. Many of the novels have given insights into the minds of some of the Primarchs but Russ is still virtually a blank slate.

All we can tell at present is that the Packs were sent out and none of the loyalist Primarchs have responded with :wtf:. This implies that Russ has at least some level of authority over his brothers. Whether this is anything other than his seniority as being the 2nd Primarch found is unclear.

Polaria
17-09-2014, 16:48
Well, if you've read Unremembered Empire then you know a "pack" of Alpha Legionnaires almost got Guilliman. All they had to do was catch him in closed and locked room with them in full war gear and Roboute in robes and weaponless... :P

Theophilis
17-09-2014, 23:26
They were sent out when Malcador found out about Magnus, not the Heresy. Hence why the Blood Angels had one before going to Signus Prime, which was almost slightly pre-Heresy or at least the same time as Istvaan.

Imo it's more of a tripwire measure. No one expects the Watch Packs to be able to take down a Primarch, but they are there as a physical reminder of the Emperor's Decree, and if they are killed they won't be able to send reports back to Malcador, so he'll know something is up. Obviously they didn't know that the traitors could block communications without the others knowing (Lorgar and the Custodes).

Saying that, is it beyond the realm of possibility that a lone Space Wolf could escape an ambush/slaughter and make his way to the engine decks with a big ol' box of explosives? Even a Primarch would be lucky to survive a warp core explosion.
Which then raises the question of why we didn't see any wolves show up to check up on Horus or Fulgrim. And if the packs were sent out in response to Magnus, then it's odd how they don't really seem to be all that big on making sure the other legions uphold the edict of Nikea. Also if they were supposed to report back then the ones sent to Sanguinius might have some issues what with their collective case of death.

I've read everything that's released so far as Mass Market Paperbacks so I know about Fear to Tread. I'll have to check out Hunter's Moon. And I'm eagerly awaiting Scars​.

SirBlackmane
18-09-2014, 00:27
Whether the idea is believable really depends on the true status of the Space Wolves. We have not really had a novel from the Wolves point of view yet, even "Prospero Burns" is told from the pov of an adopted outsider. Many of the novels have given insights into the minds of some of the Primarchs but Russ is still virtually a blank slate.

All we can tell at present is that the Packs were sent out and none of the loyalist Primarchs have responded with :wtf:. This implies that Russ has at least some level of authority over his brothers. Whether this is anything other than his seniority as being the 2nd Primarch found is unclear.
I have honestly been avoiding reading the Heresy novels due to the hit and miss nature of the Black Library in general. This is the first I've heard of these packs and I find the concept of them make me feel validated for not reading the books. Much as I have my own biased reasons for thinking of Space Wolves as "Space Marines +1", they'd have to be better than "Space Marines +50" for it to be in any way reasonable that a pack could gave of against a Primarch on his home turf with 20,000 Astares at his back.

As for any reason why other Primarchs might raise a stink at a Space Wolf team camping out at their HQ there is the implication running around the BL Heresy books that Russ and the Wolves annihilated the two missing legions - this despite being one of the smallest legions (and Russ having a glass jaw). But again, it's implied that they can accomplish this due to greater coordination of their whole legion, which is tricky when you only have a single pack.

Kiro
18-09-2014, 00:51
Which then raises the question of why we didn't see any wolves show up to check up on Horus or Fulgrim. And if the packs were sent out in response to Magnus, then it's odd how they don't really seem to be all that big on making sure the other legions uphold the edict of Nikea. Also if they were supposed to report back then the ones sent to Sanguinius might have some issues what with their collective case of death.

They were sent out to enforce the Edict, not in response to the Razing of Prospero - the Watchpack in Fear To Tread specifically mention that they do not know what happened at Prospero, as they were given their orders beforehand.


I have honestly been avoiding reading the Heresy novels due to the hit and miss nature of the Black Library in general. This is the first I've heard of these packs and I find the concept of them make me feel validated for not reading the books. Much as I have my own biased reasons for thinking of Space Wolves as "Space Marines +1", they'd have to be better than "Space Marines +50" for it to be in any way reasonable that a pack could gave of against a Primarch on his home turf with 20,000 Astares at his back.

As for any reason why other Primarchs might raise a stink at a Space Wolf team camping out at their HQ there is the implication running around the BL Heresy books that Russ and the Wolves annihilated the two missing legions - this despite being one of the smallest legions (and Russ having a glass jaw). But again, it's implied that they can accomplish this due to greater coordination of their whole legion, which is tricky when you only have a single pack.

Not only should you read the HH novels because they're awesomesauce, but they would clear up misconceptions like your second point.

Theophilis
18-09-2014, 04:57
They were sent out to enforce the Edict, not in response to the Razing of Prospero - the Watchpack in Fear To Tread specifically mention that they do not know what happened at Prospero, as they were given their orders beforehand.
Fair enough, but that does raise the question of why then the runepriest was encouraging the Blood Angels librarians while their warden was the one they were worried about finding out. And Guilleman's watch pack didn't bat an eyelash when he openly repealed the edict in Empire. You think the role of the watch packs would have better been fulfilled by Custodes. Granted they are probably fighting the webway war. The sad part is that I really liked Faffnr Bludbroder and his pack. Alongside Gantulga, they were the only ones that seemed to have a distinct character in the novel. Which is sad in itself because I really like the character portrayed by the Ultramarines in Know no Fear that was severely lacking in Empire.

Rufiodies
18-09-2014, 05:32
The Watch Packs would be a cool unit to see in the next HH codex, They can only be used if a primarch is on the table, has to stay within 12'' of a primarch, maybe with some severe downside, whenever a primarch looses a combat or takes a wound, they have to take a leadership test or be forced to charge him.

Kiro
18-09-2014, 12:10
Fair enough, but that does raise the question of why then the Rune Priest was encouraging the Blood Angels Librarians while their warden was the one they were worried about finding out.
And Guilleman's watch pack didn't bat an eyelash when he openly repealed the edict in Empire.


Another piece of Space Wolf hypocrisy? :shifty:


The Watch Packs would be a cool unit to see in the next HH codex, They can only be used if a primarch is on the table, has to stay within 12'' of a primarch, maybe with some severe downside, whenever a primarch looses a combat or takes a wound, they have to take a leadership test or be forced to charge him.

So if a Primarch is in combat and takes a wound his Watchpack jump him?! :o

Grndhog89
18-09-2014, 14:38
The Watch Packs would be a cool unit to see in the next HH codex, They can only be used if a primarch is on the table, has to stay within 12'' of a primarch, maybe with some severe downside, whenever a primarch looses a combat or takes a wound, they have to take a leadership test or be forced to charge him.

We don't need anything else affirming that horrible concept exists. Space Wolves are already mary sue in their fluff. Elevating them to "Spess Mehreens +2" is just more aggravating. They got hit with a decent sized nerf bat on the TT, I just want to see it happen in the fluff now.

tneva82
18-09-2014, 19:58
I have honestly been avoiding reading the Heresy novels due to the hit and miss nature of the Black Library in general. This is the first I've heard of these packs and I find the concept of them make me feel validated for not reading the books. Much as I have my own biased reasons for thinking of Space Wolves as "Space Marines +1", they'd have to be better than "Space Marines +50" for it to be in any way reasonable that a pack could gave of against a Primarch on his home turf with 20,000 Astares at his back.

Funny that. Only source claiming wolves are marines+1 are the complainers about wolves being described as marines+1.

Kiro
18-09-2014, 20:04
Funny that. Only source claiming wolves are marines+1 are the complainers about wolves being described as marines+1.

Or...you know, the fluff material saying this?

tneva82
18-09-2014, 20:07
Of...you know, the fluff material saying this?

Invented by the whiners.

GW doesn't claim wolves are somehow marines+1. Whiners do.

Grndhog89
18-09-2014, 20:25
Invented by the whiners.

GW doesn't claim wolves are somehow marines+1. Whiners do.

Really? Because with Wolves being designated as "handlers" for other legions and escaping total destruction from the Inquisition on multiple occasions one holds a different perspective. I think there is a surreptitious implication of Space Wolf superiority that is an unspoken theme in most of their fluff. The SW fanboys then capitalize on these subtle hints and proceed to declare how their marines are so much better than any other loyalist chapter's.

SirBlackmane
19-09-2014, 06:39
Really? Because with Wolves being designated as "handlers" for other legions and escaping total destruction from the Inquisition on multiple occasions one holds a different perspective. I think there is a surreptitious implication of Space Wolf superiority that is an unspoken theme in most of their fluff. The SW fanboys then capitalize on these subtle hints and proceed to declare how their marines are so much better than any other loyalist chapter's.
That same implication of being better than all other chapters is present elsewhere in the fluff also (see Ultramarines for the most glaring examples, although they're far from the only ones). It's a matter of perspective and also trying to get you interested in the narrative being woven. As for escaping Inquisitorial destruction, remember that the Space Wolves are one of two loyalist chapters that are several times larger than a standard chapter (the other being Black Templars). The Grey Knights and another Marine chapter would actually have been outnumbered by the wolves, especially on their home turf. If you want to know exactly how much effort would have been required to actually beat them take a look at the Badab war. It's not "spehsss mehreens +1", it's arrogance on the behalf of the Inquisitor to imagine that all Marines would automatically bend knee to him. Besides, the Dark Angels have probably killed more Inquisitors than the Space Wolves, just no one can get a straight answer out of the sneaky gits, so we'll never know for sure. [emoji1]

Spider-pope
19-09-2014, 10:50
Really? Because with Wolves being designated as "handlers" for other legions and escaping total destruction from the Inquisition on multiple occasions one holds a different perspective. I think there is a surreptitious implication of Space Wolf superiority that is an unspoken theme in most of their fluff. The SW fanboys then capitalize on these subtle hints and proceed to declare how their marines are so much better than any other loyalist chapter's.

Yes really. The Wolves weren't designated as "handlers" for the other Legions, Russ took it upon himself to do it. That is not "Space Marines +1", it's "Russ is full of himself and is going to get badly humbled before the end". They escape destruction from the Inquisition because they are too embedded into the Imperiums history, culture and military to be easily excised.

The only implication from the Horus Heresy series is that some of the Wolves think they are better than the other Legions. And they have been shown to be wrong about that numerous times. Pride goes before a fall after all.

I'd also like you to point me to the "SW fanboys" declaring Space Wolves are better. Because so far in this thread, the only people making the claim that they are, are the people who haven't even read the material they are critiquing.

Grubnar
27-09-2014, 19:26
... "Russ is full of himself and is going to get badly humbled before the end" ... Pride goes before a fall after all.


Don't we all know this to be true, since the Horus Heresy is the past?

Tymell
27-09-2014, 20:33
I'd argue that the idea of Space Wolf watch packs doesn't perpetuate the idea that they're any better than other space marines, it's more indicative of their role (as the watch-dogs of the legions, set on those that step out of line) rather than ability. Hunter's Moon doesn't exactly show them dominating.

As to when and why they were sent, I'd imagine it varies. With all the chaos (ahem) going on with warp travel around the time of the Heresy, it should come as no surprise if packs are delayed along the way, and some may have been sent with differing objectives. I think both Raptor and Howl of the Hearthworld will give us some more info on them.

They're also mentioned in The Purge, during a flashback section set in 31,006, between Isstvan's III and V, when Sor Talgron and Dorn are discussing the imprisonment of space marines stationed at Terra after the Isstvan III betrayal:

"And what of the Sixth Legion's watch-pack stationed with you?" asked Sor Talgron. "What of those sons of Russ? You have imprisoned them as well, then?"

Dorn's face was stony. "No. They operate under orders from the Sigillite. They are exempt."

"Pardon my bluntness, my lord, but does that not reek of hypocrisy?"

"This is the way it must be."

So on at least one occasion the order comes from Malcador rather than Russ (I don't know if this would be the case with all of them though). And again, this doesn't suggest the Wolves are any better, just that this is their role in things, and even Dorn himself more or less admits to hypocrisy in this.

Longstrider
08-10-2014, 15:25
The whole thing with watchpacks and Runepriests sits the wrong way with me.

Okay, we're told that Malcador (or possibly Russ) sends these watchpacks out. Why? Why does Malcador trust the Space Wolves more than anyone else? We're never given a satisfactory explanation other than "just because" which is pretty much where the idea of them just being Marines +1. Note that Rogal Dorn doesn't have an answer to Sor Talgron; it IS just hypocrisy.

And then there's the whole Runepriests/Nikea thing. The Space Wolves are insistent that there ought to be no Space Marine psykers. What about runepriests? Err... they're not psykers, they're shamans, you see. Totally different traditions, you see. Not like they're drawing on the warp for their powers at all, no sir. Again, it would be one thing if we were actually shown this (and given some consistent explanation for how that can be, given that in pretty much every other instance of magic-like powers mentioned in 40k outside of the Necrons it's all lumped under various forms of psyker-y. But we're never shown this, we're just asked to accept that somehow through handwavium the traditions of runepriests are SO different from everyone else that they're under no threat of possession or corruption, no sir.

At least the White Scars have the self-awareness or dignity to just ignore the Edict of Nikaea, rather than pretending they're special snowflakes to whom it never applied.

Part of the problem of course is that the distinction between sorcery and other types of psychic power has never really been made very clear, and whatever runepriests do gets muddied along with that somehow. Let's not forget in Battle of the Fang there are wards that are unsealed using blood too, so it's not just a blood-magic = sorcery and everything else = acceptable psykery division.

Things like Wolf Claws just being better Lightning Claws and Frost weapons just being better power weapons are emblematic of this attitude though (and the Space Wolves were my second ever model collection). Heck, the numbers thing* kind of fits this as well (though the same applies to Black Templars). For some reason Rogal Dorn and Roboute Guilliman were almost willing to start shooting over splitting up the Legions, and yet when it comes to Russ everyone shrugs and doesn't say anything? Again, even one line about how, maybe after almost starting a second civil war with Dorn, Guilliman just lets it go this time would be an explanation, but it's just not there.

So yeah, bringing it back to watch packs. Why does anyone else bother putting up with them? Why does Malcador think that the Space Wolves are somehow less susceptible to corruption than the ones they're watching?

*Is it several times, or is it just a bit bigger? IIRC from the latest Codex Logan Grimnar's Great Company is 200 strong, and he's got the largest. If that's correct, then at best they're not 2000 strong. For the record, I do think that both the Space Wolves and the Grey Knights ought to have more than everyone else, precisely because a) they don't follow the codex and b) having entirely separate rules I think there's more space for players to imagine stuff if there are a lot more of them. That said, I would just like there to be some consequences, or at least a reference, to their numbers in light of what almost happened with Rogal Dorn.

Tymell
08-10-2014, 16:12
Personally, it wouldn't sit well with me within that universe, but as a reader of a fictional one I have no problem with it. It is hypocrisy that the Wolves get special treatment, but there's nothing to say the Imperium and it's rulers have to be perfect. Indeed, them making shady moves and decisions is something I'd, if anything, like to see more of.

Again I'd say that it doesn't make them "marines +1" in the sense of being any better than others, just that that's their role: to watch over the others. The only way I ever see them as maybe being 'better' is that they might be less susceptible to certain corruptions (there's a quote somewhere when either Dorn or the Emperor lays out the few primarchs he trusts without any question, and Russ is one of them). This could be due to Russ' own nature (and I don't think there's anything wrong with him being especially loyal, there are others who are that too) or the Wolves perhaps being more informed than other legions about Chaos (which makes sense for those given the duty of watching over others).

jareddm3
08-10-2014, 17:05
Okay, we're told that Malcador (or possibly Russ) sends these watchpacks out. Why? Why does Malcador trust the Space Wolves more than anyone else? We're never given a satisfactory explanation other than "just because" which is pretty much where the idea of them just being Marines +1. Note that Rogal Dorn doesn't have an answer to Sor Talgron; it IS just hypocrisy.
Or perhaps it might be because Russ was the second primarch found, and so while Horus spent a great deal of time with the Emperor, Russ was able to spend a lot of time building up a rapport with Malcador. Or maybe Malcador simply is playing favorites. Is that a problem? He is human after all.


But we're never shown this, we're just asked to accept that somehow through handwavium the traditions of runepriests are SO different from everyone else that they're under no threat of possession or corruption, no sir.
No we're not. The whole point of it is to show the hypocrisy of the situation. That the Imperium isn't perfect, that the Wolves aren't perfect, that Russ or the Emperor or Malcador aren't perfect. At no point were any of these supposed to be immune to hypocrisy.


For some reason Rogal Dorn and Roboute Guilliman were almost willing to start shooting over splitting up the Legions, and yet when it comes to Russ everyone shrugs and doesn't say anything? Again, even one line about how, maybe after almost starting a second civil war with Dorn, Guilliman just lets it go this time would be an explanation, but it's just not there.
I have no doubt the Heresy series will go into detail about this. There simply is very little written about the topic.


So yeah, bringing it back to watch packs. Why does anyone else bother putting up with them? Why does Malcador think that the Space Wolves are somehow less susceptible to corruption than the ones they're watching? They're not less susceptible, they're simply a different legion from the ones they were guarding and Malcador might just prefer the Wolves to the Fists. They're also not supposed to do anything but die if something goes wrong. They're coal mine canaries. If they stop broadcasting, the loyalty of the legion they were guarding is now in question.

Nazguire
09-10-2014, 05:25
Coal-Mines Canary is pretty much a bang on analogy.

Sanguinius had some Space Wolves attached. The Heresy is going on. Sanguinius goes to Signus. The events of Signus happens and Amit manages to slaughter the entire pack, somehow.

The Space Wolves, and the entire Blood Angels Legion, stop reporting to Terra. Terra sees the lack of Space Wolves AND Blood Angels communications as something suspicious, to the point that they eventually decide to ransack Baal before traitors get hold of the materials and resources.

Space Wolves= Canary. If the 'Watch Pack' had continued to broadcast, none of that would have happened.

Stonerhino
09-10-2014, 19:19
Funny how they sent out these "Canaries" without the ability to even comunicate. So where are the fleets sent out the raid Ultramar, Caliban and Chogoris??? Since none of those legions have been broadcasting "Canary" messages. Also, why send "Canaries" to a planet you and most of your agents are already on???

The canary idea is a fun one but holds up about as well as the idea of the Watch Packs killing every Primarch that turns traitor.

Stonerhino
09-10-2014, 19:21
A Note:

All of the Watch Packs shown so far have carried orders from Malcador with them. So the idea that Russ sent them is also not true.

Nazguire
09-10-2014, 21:56
Funny how they sent out these "Canaries" without the ability to even comunicate. So where are the fleets sent out the raid Ultramar, Caliban and Chogoris??? Since none of those legions have been broadcasting "Canary" messages. Also, why send "Canaries" to a planet you and most of your agents are already on???

The canary idea is a fun one but holds up about as well as the idea of the Watch Packs killing every Primarch that turns traitor.

Probably unable to travel there, or find out what is happening, like everyone else in the HH due to the Warp storms.

Stonerhino, champ, mate, where did I say that 'If Watch Pack don't communicate, instant death to that Legion'. It arouses suspicion and investigation. Quit the passive aggression.

Nubl0
09-10-2014, 23:10
While it's not much you could go read betrayer I think, if you want to see Mr Russ humbled by angron. That is, he beats the crap out of him but forgets to actually command his legion thus probably losing the battle had Russ decided to let his men shoot him. None the less Russ engages Angron in single combat hoping to beat some sense into his wayward brother, doesn't end to well for him.

jareddm3
10-10-2014, 04:13
Actually, I believe the point of that fight was that Russ was trying to show that by Angron going at it alone, he'd doom himself and his legion, as the Wolves were able to dispatch the World Eaters and surround the two primarchs. Russ would have given his life in the single combat, but Angron would've given his life and his legion. It was trying to teach a lesson to Angron about command and caring for his legion, rather than just himself.

fluxdeluxe
10-10-2014, 13:42
I think the space marine +1 thing is nonsense. It's more a loyalty question. The Val Fenryka for all their irregularities were the least likely to traitor. This is because of their deeply ingrained (down to the gene seed level) pack mentality. They recognise the 'Alpha' above all else, in Fenrisian lore the Alpha is the allfather. So The wolves follow Russ and Russ follows the all father. All of their Idiosyncrasies, and perceived deviations from the imperial truth are precisely because the Wolves know they are loyal, they know they are above corruption. That's what i've picked up when I've read about them anyway.

Karhedron
10-10-2014, 14:48
There are still a lot of questions to be answered about the HH. The role of the Wolves and the reason for Mortarion turning are the 2 biggies at the moment but there are probably others. I am happy to wait patiently for further books in the hope that revelations will eventually be forthcoming which prove satisfactory.

Nubl0
11-10-2014, 12:11
Actually, I believe the point of that fight was that Russ was trying to show that by Angron going at it alone, he'd doom himself and his legion, as the Wolves were able to dispatch the World Eaters and surround the two primarchs. Russ would have given his life in the single combat, but Angron would've given his life and his legion. It was trying to teach a lesson to Angron about command and caring for his legion, rather than just himself.

Oh I agree, but it's always nice to see the space puppy Lord get beaten up. Besides Angron doesn't care about any of that stuff, he'd probably be perfectly happy killing Russ before he dies a glorious death.

Theophilis
12-10-2014, 02:59
Actually, I believe the point of that fight was that Russ was trying to show that by Angron going at it alone, he'd doom himself and his legion, as the Wolves were able to dispatch the World Eaters and surround the two primarchs. Russ would have given his life in the single combat, but Angron would've given his life and his legion. It was trying to teach a lesson to Angron about command and caring for his legion, rather than just himself.
One of the things I really like about how ADB pulled that scene off is how the argument could be made that both primarchs were victorious by their own measure and that both primarchs were put to shame during the event.

As for the watch packs, I really think that the original role would have been filled by Custodes, like the ones tasked to watch the Word Bearers, but they are obviously busy at the moment, except for the ones going with Russ to Prospero.

I can kinda see where if Russ was tasked with dealing with one or both of the missing primarchs, especially early on where the Rout could then assume that they are the executioners. However at the time of the Heresy, I just don't get why so much trust is put into the Vylka "We will do whatever the hell we want" Fenryka. I mean right now it seems that Dorn's one trait is that he follows orders without question. After Horus rebelled everyone's loyalty was called into question. Think about it. Horus, Lorgar, Fulgrim, these are some of the most loyal primarchs and they still fell, and yet Russ and the Wolves still get a free pass.

Still Standing
13-10-2014, 08:27
I think the space marine +1 thing is nonsense. It's more a loyalty question. The Val Fenryka for all their irregularities were the least likely to traitor. This is because of their deeply ingrained (down to the gene seed level) pack mentality. They recognise the 'Alpha' above all else, in Fenrisian lore the Alpha is the allfather. So The wolves follow Russ and Russ follows the all father. All of their Idiosyncrasies, and perceived deviations from the imperial truth are precisely because the Wolves know they are loyal, they know they are above corruption. That's what i've picked up when I've read about them anyway.

So they are loyal to a tee, and above corruption? They follow the All-Father without question in all things above all others? If that is true how was the Warmaster able to corrupt their purpose on Prospero into attacking a loyal Legion? The Wolves, on Prospero, were the traitor Legion. They went against the Emperor's will, they defied his orders, they destroyed a loyal Legion, and were almost wiped out in the process. They would have been utterly destroyed in the process if Magnus hadn't done them a favour and ordered the fleets away and the orbital defences powered down.

The Wolves are more corruptable exactly because in their own heads they know they are uncorruptable.

fluxdeluxe
13-10-2014, 13:30
So they are loyal to a tee, and above corruption? They follow the All-Father without question in all things above all others? If that is true how was the Warmaster able to corrupt their purpose on Prospero into attacking a loyal Legion? The Wolves, on Prospero, were the traitor Legion. They went against the Emperor's will, they defied his orders, they destroyed a loyal Legion, and were almost wiped out in the process. They would have been utterly destroyed in the process if Magnus hadn't done them a favour and ordered the fleets away and the orbital defences powered down.

The Wolves are more corruptable exactly because in their own heads they know they are uncorruptable.


That's poor fella.

IStavaan V didn't happen until 2 years after the fall of Prospero. That Means that Horus who manipulated the Wolves orders was still in charge and respected by most a s first among equals.

The thousand sons weren't 'loyal' not by a long shot, grey maybe but not loyal. The Warmaster at the time as far as the wolves were concerned spoke for the Allfather as the appointed leader (by the allfather) of the Crusade. Russ by his standards still agonised over the decision and even went so far as to try and convince magnus through who he believed was a proxy to give up without a fight therefore actually trying to circumvent Horus's orders, because he was his brother.

The whole thing was Tzeench 'just as planned' with Horus at the center of the web.


By the way the last part of your post. I don't know many other SM chapter/legions who could survive isolated in the eyespace and be uncorrupted such as the 13th great company. I'm not sure your post stands up to scrutiny. The only thing i remember in any fluff anywhere about a wolf turning is when Vollsanger turned on his crew on the wolf of fenris and slaughtered them to save his own skin, one might argue an act of cowardice rather than being corrupt.

Still Standing
13-10-2014, 13:45
Russ received orders to bring Magnus back to Terra. Russ went against those orders, regardless of who suggested the alteration to him.

Magnus DID give up without a fight. He saved the Space Wolves from certain destruction because he didn't see any point in two loyal legions annihilating each other. His sons took it upon themselves to try and protect their own lives. Magnus only stepped in when he saw what Russ was doing, without orders, to his Legion, and only then to allow them to escape. The Thousand Sons were entirely loyal. Magnus was entirely loyal, he was just deceived, and blinded by love of humanity and his Legion (plus more than a little arrogant).

As for Legions who've spent time in the Eye of Terror... Many chapters have done so post heresy. See the Abyssal Crusade as a single example.

The Thousand Sons either kill or put into statis their mutants. What do the Space Wolves do? They talk to them and go into battle alongside them.

This is all at the time of Prospero, obviously. It all changes in the long isolation of the Planet of Sorcerers.

Still Standing
13-10-2014, 13:52
My point wasn't that the Space Wolves are a traitor Legion, but that they are just as open to being manipulated and their purpose corrupted as anybody else. Their hot headed mentality makes them far more corruptable, mentally, than the more sober Legion, such as the Ultramarines or Thousand Sons.

As for traitor Space Wolves, it is certainly possible, so the idea that they are literally uncorruptable, is daft. The Marines on board the Battle Barge "The Wolf of Fenris" turned traitor and joined the Red Corsairs, however we have no numbers, so it might be 3 or an entire Great Company. Then we have Skyrar's Dark Wolves from the 4th Ed Chaos book, the remnants of the 7th Great Company who turned traitor at some point.

Lord Zarkov
13-10-2014, 17:02
In fairness the Thousand Sons were being sanctioned as they wilfully and completely disregarded a command from the Emperor which He had clearly stated would have the most severe consequences for disobeying.

Russ however had his orders changed by Horus who, as Warmaster, was supposed to have his orders followed as if they came from the Emperor Himself.

Magnus's last minute remorse not withstanding, the Wolves were clearly showing the least disloyalty here.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

TheRedAngel
14-10-2014, 15:57
They recognise the 'Alpha' above all else, in Fenrisian lore the Alpha is the allfather.
Isn't this a direct contradiction? Either they are forever fixed on the Emperor as the highest authority or the alpha. This may at this time (middle of the heresy) be one and the same, but imagine Horus besting the emperor at Terra. Would the Wolves immediately switch sides then?
If it's not all about the alpha, but rather the person, then why are they more loyal to the emperor then anybody else, e.g. the Fists or the Angels?

Stonerhino
14-10-2014, 19:46
I have wondered about that very thing for some time; the "What if Horus won". I have also wondered if Russ believes the Emperor to have no weakness. Like how in Vengeful Spirit Russ asks Loken to find Horus' weakness. If so it is understandable for Russ to obey the Emperor over all. It also might suggest a reason as to why Russ didn't rush back to Terra, he believed that the Emperor couldn't lose. Another reason however is that he planned the same tactic he used on Loken during the board game, also in Vengeful Spirit. Malcador, does a little forshadowing by saying it is a favorite tactic of Russ.

That being said I think that if Russ arrived at Terra and Horus had killed the Emperor. Then he would have a go at him, loose and change sides. As if Horus had just taken the Emperor's place. Excluding all of the Chaos stuff, that might be a deal breaker.

On the subject of "Why are the Wolves more loyal". In The Unremembered Empire Guilliman say that "Russ is loyal in ways that shame them all". So at some point Russ proved his loyalty beyond questioning. What exactly that was. We have no idea.

Stonerhino
14-10-2014, 20:05
As to "What was the purpose of the Watch Packs". We need to keep in mind that the packs were sent out pre-Prospero. So we have to ignore the events of the HH and who turned traitor and why.

The simplest answer is an appeasment of Russ by Malcador. In Vengeful Spirit Malcador expresses a fear that Russ might start deciding "Who is not loyal". An argument stated by many Watch Packs is "If one can turn then other can too". If that was Russ argument to Malcador then it is understandable why Malcador would send a pack of trusted Wolves to each Primarch. Their [Primarchs] loyalty could be varified by the Wolves themselves without Russ needing to go to each one in force. Like he did against the Wold Eaters.

Theophilis
15-10-2014, 00:03
In The Unremembered Empire Guilliman say that "Russ is loyal in ways that shame them all". So at some point Russ proved his loyalty beyond questioning. What exactly that was. We have no idea.
I could easily see Russ carrying out orders that would raise certain issues with some of the other primarchs. If the Emperor were to become corrupted somehow and he had to order a primarch to kill him, Russ is the one that I could see doing it and still have his moral integrity intact as apposed to Konrad or Angron. That could be why he is the "executioner"

Now your explanation for the watch packs themselves actually makes some sense so works for me.

Stonerhino
15-10-2014, 05:03
Ya lots of the SW fluff works out very well when you start from a sencable starting point and ignore the Marines+1 theories.

=Angel=
15-10-2014, 07:09
All marine legions are +1 at something. The fists are +1 at siegeworks and decency.

The salamanders are +1 burninating and endurance?

Ultras are +2 discipline, -1 charisma.

The wolves manage to be +1 independence, +1 ferocity, +1 vs astartes +10 loyalty. They are the honourable barbarian class. Intelligence is their dump stat, but that never comes into play in a universe where closecombat is king.

Ingame, they even managed to have more powerful psykers than the Thousand Sons.

We see the folly of the fists and Templars as they unwisely beat their hands bloody when they would be wiser to withdraw.

The wolves never get called out on what should be their weakness, ignorance. Maybe ignorance is just another strength in the grim darkness of the far future.

A small mind is easily filled with faith.

Still Standing
15-10-2014, 08:28
Ingame, they even managed to have more powerful psykers than the Thousand Sons.

They aren't Psychers, shut up, shut up, SHUT UP! (say the Space Wolves)

Karhedron
15-10-2014, 11:20
Russ is such an enigma still. All we know from HH books is that he is the 2nd Primarch to have been found (I think) and the Emperor won his loyalty by braining him with a power fist. Unlike most of the other Primarchs, we have never got into his head in any of the novels (I haven't read the most recent couple yet though) so we really don't know what makes him tick.

The only character trait we know of beyond surface appearances is that he deliberately plays up his barbarian warlord persona to hide his intelligence. At least some high-level imperials realise this from their comments at Nikea.

Perhaps the most obvious questions is why does he do this? Who does he hope to fool? Valdor, Malcador and at least some of the other Primarchs realise that Russ is more than he appears. If he was attempting to fool his peers it does not seem to have worked.

So is he fooling his Legion? His troops come from a savage world so does he play-up the savage Wolf King to ensure the devotion of his men? It is a plausible explanation. Some of the Primarchs are very paternal towards their legions but others treat then mush more dispassionately. So if Russ is putting on an act to ensure his legion is unquestioningly loyal, what does that make him?

If Russ is the Primarch who is willing to get his hands dirty, perhaps he wants his legion to maintain an outlook of unquestioning loyalty (at least to him) and savagery so that he can use them to perform questionable acts where other Legions might baulk.

Guilliman's comments about Russ are intriguing and I cannot see them in any other light than a reference to destruction of one or both of the lost legions. The Primarchs are a band of brothers with differing relationships with the Emperor. Horus was able to turn several of the Primarchs to his cause because he seemed to understand them better than the Emperor. By destroying another legion (and presumably their Primarch) if they acted disloyally, Russ would have been able to prove his personal loyalty to the Emperor above his brothers beyond doubt. He also has a legion that will obey him unquestioningly.

However, all this remains speculative until we either get some fluff from Russ's perspective or we learn more about the fates of the missing Legions.

Stonerhino
15-10-2014, 17:43
That's something else I have thought on Karhedron. If Russ is acting to be what the Wolves need him to be or if it is a result of Fenrisian culture. Ahriman makes a comment in A Thousand Sons about the Wolves "Charms". He says that the charms themselves are powerless but the belief in them has power. It is possible and even kind of makes sence for Russ to pretend to be the Barbarian King so to keep the Fenrisian culture strong amoung the Wolves.

Tymell
25-10-2014, 15:33
A minor thread-res as I've just finished reading "Howl of the Hearthworld" from the Death and Defiance anthology, and it sheds some further light on the watch-packs.

Specifically the short story shows one such pack being sent off (very reluctantly) to watch over Rogal Dorn on Terra. I recommend anyone interested in the concept read it, but in particular two things stood out:

1.) It confirmed that the watch-packs are Malcador's idea and order, not Russ':


The Russ turned a toothy smile upon the other warchiefs. 'The Sigillite asked this of us, kinsmen. Answer me in truth, here in the warriors' court - do you see no honour in this? The Regent of Terra himself beseeches us to watch the Lords of the Legions.'

2.) The watch-packs are sent out shortly before the Space Wolves go to Prospero to arrest Magnus. As the pack is on the ship bound for Terra, a scribe journeying with them asks:


'Am I to assume you would rather be sailing to Prospero with your Legion, than making this journey to Terra?'

So, they aren't sent in response to Horus' treachery at Isstvan III, nor it would seem in response to the Edict of Nikea itself, but to Magnus' breaking of the Edict. Which doesn't surprise me, especially considering the other issues arising at the time (by this point Konrad Curze has gone rogue and been isolated from his legion, and both Lorgar and Angron have been previously censured for their actions. Combined with Magnus, and the importance of the Emperor's work at the time, I can see the reasoning).

Theophilis
25-10-2014, 17:15
Of course that begs the question about the watch packs sent out to Horus, Fulgrim, and Mortarion, because we follow them leading up to Isstvaan 3 and there's neither hide nor hair of any Wolves. Also we haven't heard about the ones sent to Vulkan, Ferrus, and Corax. Surely they would have helped at Isstvaan. And while I'm at it, wouldn't the fact that 3 legions would have had watchpacks with them hunky dory and 4 legions conspicuously don't have raised red flags before the dropsite massacre?

Tymell
25-10-2014, 19:48
I think in-universe it's best explained as a combination of factors. We know, for example, that some watch-packs arrived at their destinations much earlier than others. The issues with warp travel around that time, plus the further problems with communication in the same manner, might help mitigate any suspicions on that basis. In other words, just because Russ/Malcador don't hear from the watch-packs right away, doesn't necessarily raise any flags. The Heresy itself begins not long after, so by the time it -might- start raising questions, it's already too late. The watch-packs could be eliminated as they arrive, and because of all those problems everyone's having no one would need be any the wiser, at least for long enough for the traitors to make their move. (we even see one such pack being dealt with in Hunter's Moon, by the Alpha Legion) Some packs might even simply be lost in transit.

Real world explanation is presumably just that the whole idea of the watch-packs is only now properly being explored, so at the time novels like Fulgrim and the opening trilogy were written, they weren't factored in (those were the earliest of the entire series after all, and written at a time when it wasn't certain how long or expansive the series was going to be). Plus, we actually don't really see much of the World Eaters or Death Guard leading up to Isstvan III, it's mostly the Sons of Horus and Emperor's Children.

To my knowledge we've seen (or are going to see) watch-packs in some capacity for the following:

Imperial Fists (Howl of the Hearthworld, also mentioned in The Purge)
Blood Angels (Fear to Tread)
Ultramarines (The Unremembered Empire)
Raven Guard (Raptor)
Alpha Legion (Hunter's Moon)
Plus the Space Wolves themselves and the Thousand Sons don't really count.

The remaining seven traitor legions can be assumed to have "taken care" of the packs sent (if they arrived at all), and aside from the Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children and Word Bearers we don't actually see much of them prior to the betrayal anyway, so that could easily have happened "off-screen".

Salamanders and Iron Hands: Again, we don't see very much of them prior to Isstvan V. Maybe the packs never arrived, maybe they took part in Isstvan V, who knows?

Dark Angels: I don't recall seeing mention of a Space Wolf watch-pack for them, but can't really remember.

White Scars: They were very isolated for several years before the Heresy, it's unlikely such a pack would even make it to them before Scars.

That's my best attempt at filling it in, anyway :)

Kiro
25-10-2014, 19:50
In particular two things stood out:

1.) It confirmed that the watch-packs are Malcador's idea and order, not Russ':



2.) The watch-packs are sent out shortly before the Space Wolves go to Prospero to arrest Magnus.

FYI, both of these were already confirmed in Fear To Tread.

Scribe of Khorne
25-10-2014, 19:58
Watch Packs, Executioners, both are horrifically bad ideas. The fact both are put on the Wolves, with the most biased rabid fanbase behind them, is just heaping sin upon sin.

=Angel=
25-10-2014, 20:41
I like to imagine the nightlords wearing the flayed watchpacks skin and sending videos back to malcador of them chugging beers and rutting with wolves and saying hurrdurr I am a spacewolf.
And malcador nods and thinks this seems legit.

- Sneak preview of next heresy novel

Grndhog89
26-10-2014, 04:12
Watch Packs, Executioners, both are horrifically bad ideas. The fact both are put on the Wolves, with the most biased rabid fanbase behind them, is just heaping sin upon sin.

For once Scribe of Khorne, I am in complete agreement with you.

MvS
26-10-2014, 10:49
I can't imagine how Dorn or the Fists would react to a 'watchpack'.

I could imagine Sigismund challenging each and every one of them for the temerity of questioning the loyalty and honour of the Praetorians of Terra.

502
26-10-2014, 20:15
Watch Packs, Executioners, both are horrifically bad ideas. The fact both are put on the Wolves, with the most biased rabid fanbase behind them, is just heaping sin upon sin.

I concur.

Was there any mention of a pack being sent to the World Eaters?

Stonerhino
26-10-2014, 22:23
Watch Packs, Executioners, both are horrifically bad ideas. The fact both are put on the Wolves, with the most biased rabid fanbase behind them, is just heaping sin upon sin.While the Watch Packs are questional at best. It could just be a ploy to add the Wolves to stories to sell books. However the Executioner twist goes a long way to explain both their self image and some of their more unlikely fluff.

Not trying to start this debate again and so will end with; the Wolves also have the most rabid anti-fan base as well. You can't make everyone happy.

****

On a side note. I would love for an autor to write about some of the Packs turning traitor. For example the one sent to Horus. Turning in the belief that Russ would stand with Horus or something simular.

Scribe of Khorne
27-10-2014, 00:57
I concur.

Was there any mention of a pack being sent to the World Eaters?

I had the impression the packs where post heresy, to watch over those still 'loyal'.

StoneRhino: We've been over this im sure, here and at BnC. The executioners bit has no basis, is utter trash and adds nothing, its Abnett ****. You are right though, nothing of value will come from our discussion on this again. :]

Kiro
27-10-2014, 08:25
I concur.

Was there any mention of a pack being sent to the World Eaters?

It hasn't been mentioned, but IIRC, Betrayer implies the World Eaters simply ignored the Edict, which I guess would make sending a pack somewhat redundant.

Mog
28-10-2014, 17:57
One thing I would like to bring up that sometimes seems to be forgotten (or this may be me being foolish) is that Watch Packs or etc, if their task was to enforce the Edict or similar laws/ views, sending a pack of Wolves or otherwise would not work in a unsubtle sense, only through methods such as them all dying and not being able to report anymore, or being in a position to cause maximum damage to a traitor legion (the Wolves not having any qualms with attacking once-brothers at a hint of treachery/witchcraft etc).

Being there to decapitate a renegade legion would not work because this is a Legion: it's best assets would be heavily guarded, even such things as warp drives. A pack of Wolves would have to fight their way through the forces, and probably the elite, of a Legion on their own vessels or a hostile warzone to even reach a Primarch, and even then, they are a Primarch: an example of a Legion's elite being slaughtered by a Primarch is the Gal Vorbak on Istvaan V by Corax. The only forces that would have a hope of killing a Primarch would be a Custodes taskforce, and any attempts at manipulating the Primarch into a vulnerable position would fail because they are a Primarch, and so anything the would-be assassins (in the example, Watch Pack) would think of to use the Primarch would think of and counter due to them knowing of their factor as an asset to their Legion, and ones such as Angron in my opinion would not take off their armour that much, or be without other warriors.

Sorry if any of this is misguided or wrong, I just meant it as an advisement!

Mog
28-10-2014, 17:58
*Hope of killing in the sense of what a Watch Pack or similar would have to try to.

Stonerhino
28-10-2014, 20:18
I don't think I have said it in this thread but have before. The Watch Packs are an open threat not a stealthy assassin mission. They are not there to represent a true chance of killing a Primarch. Instead they are there to show that that Primarch's life is in danger. Again to not be misunderstood not from the Watch Pack but in the fact that the Emperor, Malcador and the Wolves themselves would have no quams about enforcing the "Law". Should that Primarch turn traitor.

Hunter's Moon does the best job of showing that the Wolves would fight reguardless of the odds. Even in The Unremembered Empire, the Wolves telll Guilliman in front of his body guard and a large gathering of serious warriors. That they would attempt to sanction him even if they already knew they would fail.

Something that is rarely brought up is that maybe the Watch Packs are there to be the focus. While Malcador's actual assassins are hiding just out of view.

A point of note: Why does Dorn [on Terra no less] get a would be Jarl if he didn't actively work against it, a Rune Priest and a pack of all deednamed grey bearded warriors. It is overkill beyond what we have seen in the other Watch Packs. Then the equivilent of a Chapter Master joins them. I hope ADB is not planning something "Epic" with this pack.

Scribe of Khorne
28-10-2014, 23:03
My favorite take on them, is they are a canary nothing more. If you dont hear from us, then they went traitor.

Tymell
28-10-2014, 23:27
Personally, I imagine it's a combination of a bit of everything. They're there to keep watch, to alert others if they can, to put down any treachery by force if they can, and simply to be a reminder of the Emperor's vigil. Are they likely to be able to take down a primarch? No, though it's not impossible, and sometimes such treachery might come from others, not the primarch himself. Are they always going to be able to get word out of such treachery? No, but they might. More generally, they just act as a constant psychological reminder that the legions aren't alone to be laws unto themselves.

As to the Wolves as a whole, I don't have any issue with the executioner role, since it's one that would rarely ever actually be used, and every legion has their role in the greater scheme of things. Custodes might have made more sense as "watch-packs" ala The First Heretic, but it's also possible that by that point in time they were too busy with the war going on below the palace (save for those sent with the Wolves to Prospero to carry the full weight of the Emperor's authority) to be spared for such duties. Just a thought/suggestion.

Fulgrim's Gimp
29-10-2014, 19:51
I wonder if some of the Watch Packs could return to the Wolves 'changed' especially when dealing with more treacherous legions.

Stonerhino
29-10-2014, 20:23
You have not read Stormcaller by chance???

Not a big deal so no spoilers. There is a Wolf who was part of the Deathwatch and returns to the Wolves "Changed". Not in the sence of being Chaos-y but just with a different world view. This part actually happened in Blood of Asihiem *mis-spelled*. In Stormcaller when he decides to die well, he reverts back to "Full wolf" losing everything he learned from the other Chapters. I loved that scene because it shows truely how deepy ingrained Fenrisian culture is in the Wolves.

Fulgrim's Gimp
29-10-2014, 21:19
No , I haven't , thanks for the heads up. I was thinking more along the lines of a Manchurian candidate type scenario as could possibly develop from Hunter's Moon.

fluxdeluxe
29-10-2014, 23:25
No , I haven't , thanks for the heads up. I was thinking more along the lines of a Manchurian candidate type scenario as could possibly develop from Hunter's Moon.


Totally off off topic but your username is amazing

you need to ask yourself the question... What would Fulgrims gimp look like.. 😷🙀

Longstrider
30-10-2014, 01:37
So the Death and Defiance short was most interesting to me because of the suspicion with which that Space Wolf psyker was met. Note that, unlike all other appearances, there's no effort made to pretend that runepriests aren't librarians - the runepriest just introduces himself, and then reintroduces himself as "honest to the allfather I'm not a psyker" and mentions he just keeps wearing the psychic hood but doesn't use it.

So it leaves me to draw one of the following conclusions:
1. It's just inconsistent writing from different authors and it's not settled - and though this seems likely, it would be nice if the HH team would just make a decision as to whether Space Wolf librarians fall under the remit of the Edict or they just get a special snowflake pass for no real reason.
2. The Space Wolves are just lying to everyone else about Runepriests not being psykers, AND somehow most everyone believes them (though we know the Thousand Sons know that's nonsense)
3. Some Space Wolves are lying to themselves about their shamanic traditions not being a psychic discipline, and others aren't, and they're responding to the Edict differently, but they're still willing to be irritating hypocrites when it comes to all other Legions.

We also have evidence that whatever they might think (and frankly I'd expect the psychological training of most Space Marines would want to emphasise their OWN incorruptability as part of the armour of contempt), they are indeed corruptible. I also prefer it this way, because otherwise they're just stepping on Grey Knight toes.

The Executioners thing doesn't really bother me - we all know that the various legions all think very highly of themselves, and the way it's been presented to us has consistently been in terms of "here's what they say about themselves, and some outsiders believe it. 40k era Stormfangs and Wolf Claws aren't really any more offputting to my personal headcanon than Baal Predators and Plasma Cannon Terminators, so I'll admit my earlier claim about mechanical +1s is flawed.

But there's also just a bunch of narrative uncertainty (and not, I think, in a particularly interesting or well developed sense) that just leads to a lot of us arguing past each other, specifically surrounding Runepriests, psykery, librarians, Nikaea, and what everyone else around them makes of, say, Stormseers (who we're told developed the Librarius anyway, so they're certainly in that tradition). To me, I still think the White Scars are handled better. Basically what we get there is "yeah, there's that Edict, we ignore it, and nobody's paying enough attention to us to call us out". What we get with the Space Wolves is, across varying authors and stories, a mishmash of different claims that are just unsatisfying, rather than being intriguing. Guilliman and the Lion (and Corax and Sanguinius) all repeal it and the former two claim authority in doing so, whereas you get a sense that the latter still think they might be breaking good rules, rather than just coming up with new rules entirely.

Wazzahamma
30-10-2014, 03:54
Runepriests is a simple case of “do as I say, not as I do”. Perhaps the SW rationalise it to themselves as the powers of Fenris or whatever, but essentially it’s saying “we can be trusted with it, none of you can.”



As for Executioners, I don’t understand the issue. It doesn’t make them better than anyone else (in fact, the SW in Unremembered Empire seem to have a low view of themselves as chained dogs. Suggesting that while they see the honour in their work and their loyal status, they know they are not as respected for it). You could make arguments that the WE or NL are more suited but unreliable. The Ultramarines are possibly even more loyal (if you can imagine that) and certainly more numerous, but that means their numbers are better used elsewhere. There might be legions who are as good or better as executioners, but they are even more needed in the role and purpose they currently serve.



If I were looking at the overall dynamics of my primarchs and legions, I would probably choose the SW too because they’re just in the best position (not the necessarily the best inherently) to do the job. Same as any organisation.

Kiro
30-10-2014, 08:05
1. It's just inconsistent writing from different authors and it's not settled - and though this seems likely, it would be nice if the HH team would just make a decision as to whether Space Wolf librarians fall under the remit of the Edict or they just get a special snowflake pass for no real reason.

I'd like to think this is not the case; the HH team usually have meetings where they discuss the overall arc and I can't see this pink elephant stepping on everyone's toes as an accident. Pretty sure I saw ADB said this will be addressed.

Oh, and enjoy the can of worms you just opened with your other points :D



As for executioners, I don’t understand the issue. It doesn’t make them better than anyone else

Because they get an extra, shiny merit badge and the other, previously all-equal Legions get nothing :p

Not sure if you're quoting from memory but Betrayer ruminates on why other Legions were not chosen for the role.

Stonerhino
30-10-2014, 20:26
'Naukrim,' he said. 'I am what you would call a Librarian.' A sense of stillness took form in the chamber in the wake of those words. 'I notice you don't write those words down like the others, little man. Is there a problem?In a scene where the Wolves are all telling the scribe what he wants to hear.

Laughing Jaurmag was the one to speak. 'You've had all the truth we intend to give, scribe. Write it down and be gone from our sight.'I don't think we can believe any of what was said.

And to sum up all your points Longstrider. The Rune Priest know they are psykers and their power comes from the warp. A Rune Priest says as much in Prospero Burns. They do however believe they are different then Librarians, whom the 30K Wolves see as bad.