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View Full Version : Wood Elves avoidance lists. Douchy or just right for tournament?



avatarofportent
20-09-2014, 18:21
I'm looking at doing a 5 game 2500pts tournament next year and I was thinking of doing all mobile avoidance list for WE. I've always more done the hybrid lists with static blocks of GG and some cavalry running around. Treekin, Dancer, Treeman for good measure. But I've bought up a bunch of cavalry and intend on doing all mounted. The list will look something like this.

Lvl 4 High Magic on Horse
Lvl 4 Shadow on Horse or Sisters of Twilight on Eagle

5x5 Glade Rider units with musicians and Hagbane arrows

2x6 Wild Riders with full command and war banner and banner of swiftness
8-9 Sisters of Twilight with full command and lichebone pennant
3-4 Warhawk Riders

2x10 Waywatchers

Something to that effect. Now when I ran hybrid lists, my opponents could never catch my fast stuff and it could be quite frustrating for them. This army seems like it would just be miserable to play against.

Waagh Rider
20-09-2014, 20:52
Change the 'or' in the thread title to 'and', and you have your answer....

Wesser
20-09-2014, 20:54
Well it's a gimmick army of the sort that aren't likely to cause THAT much damage to the enemy, but against certain setups such as archer-heavy Tomb Kings or other Wood Elves are in for an almost guaranteed loss.

Whether it's douchy can depend on a lot of Things in a tournament. Sportsmanship and/or army composition points, what scenarios (tournies often have special secnarios) being played or so forth.


But apart from that. I play VC which would have immense trouble with that list. Normally I'm pretty casual and not going to face this type of list, but if in a tournament where I'd know I wasn't going to see much of game trying to catch this kind of list I might be tempted to take my jolly sweet time about my decisions and stall the game for a Draw. I might think "He brought an avoidance list. Why should I make an effort to give him a game when he seems hellbent on not giving me one?".

It may not as bad as that but as you noticed it can be pretty frustrating to play against, and you so easily get games where your opponent goes away from the game irritated and never impressed..

I have other armies than VC, but whether or not it would be equipped to tackle your list I doubt I could get an enjoyable game out of it, but thats just me dude... just speaking for myself here

mad_hatter
20-09-2014, 21:00
I think you should go for it, it is still a fluffy list, since its wood elves and they should avoid things. And also since you dont really have chance to go horde against horde to most armies in a tournament anyway. And when you play your friends just tell them what you play and they can tailor their armies abit before you play.

MOMUS
24-09-2014, 00:58
Warhams should be about running ma horde at your horde and belly bumping on the midway line!!!! :mad:

Its a fine list, probably get more mileage from some archers in core, you might be able to win or avoid losing big but by the nature of he list I think you will struggle to get big wins.

bigbiggles
24-09-2014, 07:41
I played a partial avoidance list and won big with it. Everyone hated playing it, and I felt like a jerk. Now I bring other armies to play.

Sexiest_hero
24-09-2014, 08:26
STAND STILL AND LET ME HIT YOU!I can't kill you with my broken Nurgle dp chimera and chariot spam if you keep moving!

Josfer
24-09-2014, 10:36
STAND STILL AND LET ME HIT YOU!I can't kill you with my broken Nurgle dp chimera and chariot spam if you keep moving!
Seriously? You can't catch or flee off the board stuff with terrain and other units ignoring swiftstride M10 charges on models that can turn on the spot to form an outward facing circle?


@Topic: If it's good for a tournament depends on the tournament system. WLD is good for avoidance, 20:0 not so much as they tend to win but not that much.

Wesser
24-09-2014, 10:46
STAND STILL AND LET ME HIT YOU!I can't kill you with my broken Nurgle dp chimera and chariot spam if you keep moving!

Ehh.. I call those pretty well suited for the task actually

What about Beastmen that didn't happen to spam Razorgors/Chariots or basically any kind of Vampire Counts?

Tournaments are tournaments it's true, but lists like this all but robs the game of the close combat phase, hexes and augments because combat will be reduced to Wild riders picking on stuff they can beat and the any other combat being almost accidental ones where a nit might be caught and killed by a lucky charge.

Games are more than big units bellybumping in the middle, but armies like this (which also tend to make for time-consuming movement phases) needs to come with a pointed stick for prodding your sleeping opponent awake for when he gets to move units around and take saving throws

In Dark Trees
29-09-2014, 21:59
People who complain about "avoidance lists" are really just annoyed you are not obligingly let them thrash you in a melee. Some people like the combat phase and are surprised that the movement phase can be used creatively.

Mike3791
30-09-2014, 02:06
Then there's things like a well placed artillery blast that can cripple a list like this.. and don't forget gyros template lol

Wesser
30-09-2014, 07:41
People who complain about "avoidance lists" are really just annoyed you are not obligingly let them thrash you in a melee. Some people like the combat phase and are surprised that the movement phase can be used creatively.

Noone is surprised

There's just armies that cannot do it

Josfer
30-09-2014, 11:13
Some people like the combat phase
Well there is some excitement in rolling dice with a meaningful outcome and while an avoidance list will get that with shooting, some armies won't against an avoidance list.

Rake
30-09-2014, 12:14
It does not take skill to play avoidance lists. Tell yourself that if it makes you feel better, but you are just exploiting poor game design. If your goal is to win, go for it. Its an obvious tool to do so.
Don't expect to make friends or people to respect your "skill".

Kingly
30-09-2014, 14:14
It's my favourite army to rock about in Total War, and it's interesting to see folks complaining about it, it has obvious weaknesses and if someone has spammed their army to not deal with this then I'd be inclined to think they deserve it.

thesoundofmusica
30-09-2014, 17:02
In a tournament go right ahead. Nobody will play you more than once anyways. In a small-ish group with a power gaming avoidance list you risk your opponents quickly getting tired of warhammer.... and in severe cases life.

Theocracity
30-09-2014, 17:49
I would never get mad at a list that plays perfectly in character with the army in question.

OkamiHanzo
30-09-2014, 18:12
I play Wood Elves (not that good) and Have never played the avoidance style...But I can see how some people could consider it a little frustrating or un-fun...But to me So is a giant Horde of Ogres rushing forward, or a Dwarf or Tomb King army that doesn't move once through out the whole game... (Looking forward to Objectives in 9th hopefully) But I Always try to find a Battle Fun one way or another...Making the most of it. You can't build your army to deal with every single tactic there is in Warhammer. Enjoy your approach Avatarofportent !!


I might be tempted to take my jolly sweet time about my decisions and stall the game for a Draw.

This is why I don't like Tournaments maybe... I have had other players drag out turns to Stall games against me before and I think its Sad! ?What is more unfair, an Army List built only around Movement/Combat/Magic ect or an opponent that is clearly trying to Stall the game to avoid losing a few points?

Wesser
01-10-2014, 06:57
This is why I don't like Tournaments maybe... I have had other players drag out turns to Stall games against me before and I think its Sad! ?What is more unfair, an Army List built only around Movement/Combat/Magic ect or an opponent that is clearly trying to Stall the game to avoid losing a few points?

Ofc it's a bit sad

But if your army is primarily slow moving infantry (imagine an axes & shields dwarf army) then there not a lot for you to do either against an avoidance list.

I'm taking my own VC to a tournament in a few days and avoidance lists are a major concern, and I've tried to mitigate it by taking some fast units... sadly even Vargheists may be in difficulty against elves. It means my army is way short of cutting edge, but I hope I'll have at least some options that I can hope for luck with.

MOMUS
01-10-2014, 10:56
Heavens magic is perfect against avoidance lists.

Wesser
01-10-2014, 12:22
Heavens magic is perfect against avoidance lists.

Chain Lightning can be potent against MSU yes, but avoidance tends to be rather spread out as opposed to castling

I'd say there's more mileage in Light which have a few magic missiles, a "net" spell and a movement boost spell

CountUlrich
01-10-2014, 12:46
I would say slanesh is best, and fire is also good - the magic missiles are plenty to kill elves, have low casting values, and flame cage is great.

And to the op, yes avoidance is ******* and horrible, AWFUL to play against ... but if you don't mind being THAT guy, bring it to a tournament ... just don't expect people to enjoy playing with you.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

Enigmatik1
01-10-2014, 14:16
CountUlrich is right...especially if you're running Warriors. Slaaneshi armies and specifically the Lore of Slaanesh is almost tailor made to mess with avoidance armies (I so miss Titillating Delusions, btw). It all comes down to who executes their plans better (and of course, the magic phase). But considering the only shooting in my Mono-Slaanesh Warrior list is javelins on Marauder Horsemen, I have never been afraid of, nor annoyed by any avoidance list I've seen. It's really, really hard to outrun Hellstriders and a Daemon Prince coming for you.

Interestingly enough, I actually think a Beastmen list that knows it's going to face avoidance can actually hold its own, largely through their magic phase (surprisingly). I can't believe I'm saying this, but it looks as if the much-maligned Lore of the Wild could make a mess of a WE avoidance list with a little bit of luck. Actually using Beastmen Ambush (which no one does afaik), Scouting Harpies, Razorgor and maybe even trying some Skin of Man/Lore of Shadow/Shadow-Hide shenanigans just might pay dividends. If Centigor were Fast Cavalry (which they really should be), I'd actually say BM were in decent shape.

MOMUS
01-10-2014, 15:01
Chain Lightning can be potent against MSU yes, but avoidance tends to be rather spread out as opposed to castling

I'd say there's more mileage in Light which have a few magic missiles, a "net" spell and a movement boost spell


Comet is huge, you can control the board space and force the enemy to take damage or be charged. Thunderbolt is great and don't forget rolling skies, as avoidance tends to favour flyers.
Iceshard is awesome when playing whoever.

CariadocThorne
01-10-2014, 20:54
Comet is huge, you can control the board space and force the enemy to take damage or be charged. Thunderbolt is great and don't forget rolling skies, as avoidance tends to favour flyers.
Iceshard is awesome when playing whoever.

Comet is huge FOR avoidance lists, not against them so much. They can often dodge right through threatened areas and use it against you.

Wind blast however, rocks. Just a couple of inches in the wrong direction can be critical for avoidance.

MOMUS
02-10-2014, 01:05
I agree I love getting it but a well placed comet against me can pin an avoidance army between a rock and a hard place. Heavens is often seen in the UK in lists that don't have many tools against avoidance.

avatarofportent
14-12-2014, 19:23
I'm doing a partial avoidance list, what did you end up using.

Ahnarras
15-12-2014, 05:35
If you are really trying to play that kind of list, just remember that fast cav, if they do have free reform, still can't have a model that move more than double his M.
And they still have to go around impassable and other unit, with the 1" between them.

Avoidance list is a lot harder to play when you follow the rule, and not just "i will put my stuff anywhere in a 18" bubble from their starting point".

Except of that, well, if you wann win, it's a good list. They are obvious counter, and with all the WE going out of their forest since the new army book, you may except to see a lot of army with something to deal your list.

Sarael
08-01-2015, 07:36
Yes to both, but be aware that avoidance lists rarely get high scores for kill points or sportsmanship.