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idols11
21-09-2014, 15:18
It seems to me that GW is a much better choice than lance and shield.

Against Strength 3, a 2+ save is the same as a 1+ so GW is the better choice there.

Against high toughness units like monsters or high save units like bret knights, S5/S6 is really helpful.

And against a horde which is steadfast, you are not going to break them on the first turn, so you are only S3/4 with lances. Basically you will not kill enough to win combat. But you might win with GWs


I think the extra +1 save really is not worth losing +2S (which also gives -2 to opponents save)

N00B
21-09-2014, 15:37
There are a while lot of things you will face the a 1+ save makes a big difference on. Some are S4 combat units (orc biguns, ogres, warriors of chaos, empire halberdiers and ICK all get easy S4 in core) , but if you dont need to engage them you should be able to avoid them. Bigger issues are things like elf botthrowers - 6 S4 AP shots - 3+ save much nicer than 4+... Darkshards at 3+ save rather than 2+... Goblin fanatics, a LOT of magic missiles are S4... the list is pretty big.

Fast cav with spears in the flank or rear? Can easily tip the balance if you are engaged to the front. Chariot impact hits... The list goes on.

Yes +2 strength is good but if you cant break a monster on the charge i think you are doing something wrong. Throwing the units into a steadfast hore is a diffrerent matter and i do love the idea of using these as a tarpit unit but to be honest I think Empire have better options for that.

EvanM
21-09-2014, 17:51
LANCE + SHIELD unless you want to take a unit of 20 of them, then go GW.

The GW option just doesnt measure up for one key reason: you lose the 1+ armor and get a 2+, that means you die twice as fast (seems crazy but its true)

they really didnt balance the gw option in the book, so its extremely rare that you see it nowadays.

Silver Wolf
21-09-2014, 19:01
The nice benefit of great weapons is that you keep the strength even if you're charged.
I'd take it only on regular knights, though.

Seems like a waste on inner circle knights. Their S4 paired with 1+AS seems much more versatile than 2+AS and S6.

But the others have already said the main part.
If you're playing in highly competitive environment, shield and lance knights are a better option.
Sure, they don't hit as hard in consecutive rounds of combat or if they're charged, but they're better at survival.
But if you're getting charged or not breaking the enemy on the charge, you've probably been outmaneuvered or you've made a tactical error.

As EvanM already said, go big or go home.
If you plan to use knights as a meat-grinder, you're going to need more bodies.

My 2 cents as an Empire player.

N00B
21-09-2014, 19:43
I dont think its just go big or go home though. I could see a couple of small cheap units as tarpits for S3 stuff or for charging archers where you dont need the 1+ Save to grind out a win (and where slower units wouldnt work and more expensive units would be a waste). I couldn't see them working so well as part of a big combat plan but as a cost effective way of removing low strength units from the game they could work. Just need to kill enough to overcome static combat res.

Josfer
22-09-2014, 10:47
You'd need at least 11 models (10 that can attack and 1 spare so you get all of your attacks with ASF) which results in more than 250 pts (you want a musician) bound in "removing low strength units from the game"...which low strength unit is worth being bound by that many pts?

N00B
22-09-2014, 11:28
Ah, my mistake then. I thought min unit size was 5.

Wesser
22-09-2014, 12:23
Lance & Shield have the versatility

Hatred works no better with great weapons anyway

GW's are only better if you get to strike. If charged you'll probably lose combat due to your lack of ranks, extra casualties taken and fewer guys striking back. Empire Cavalry just isn't potent enough to be a hammer, so why deceive yourself?

Josfer
22-09-2014, 13:11
Ah, my mistake then. I thought min unit size was 5.
It is, but how many CR will you generate with 4-5 knights? The low S block you're trying to bind will probably have +3 from ranks. Given both have a banner and musician even if the enemy has only WS3, you'll only wound ~3 guys. Now either the enemy has parry or 4+ armor or lots of attacks (killing a knight AND generating a CR AND killing your +1rank CR) or two to three of those OR he is so incredibly cheap that even 5 knights + FC are too much points to bind a unit of 40 slaves or similar. Anyways, your knights might tie that combat, but might about the same probability lose and possibly run. Do this over multiple turns with a STRONGLY SHRINKING knight unit (one dead model is 1/5, 1/4, 1/3...of the unit) and you can be sure to lose those knights to some lowly **** unit. And add to that the fact, that from the second round of CC onwards the **** unit might have gotten a buff through magic.

Wesser
22-09-2014, 13:35
5 knights are a chaff unit/ war machine hunter. They are pretty sweet in that role as they can handle both light and heavy chaff. And you only need one knight alive to get a flank/rear charge on a close combat or catch an unwary wizard

EvanM
22-09-2014, 14:33
5 man knights are amazing chaff but 5 man reiksguard are brilliant! stubborn 1+ is just redonkulous.

take 2 units of 5 reiksguard, no command, put em on your flanks and maybe even form them 2 wide, and go after warmachines, flank the big blocks, or hold up enemy units.

you dont need more core points unless you are one of those empire players who doesnt take infantry (BOO! HISS!!!) which btw is a horrible tactic anyway.

Kingly
24-09-2014, 15:29
I'm in the same boat, when I look at what is missing in my army, the ability to smash the likes of CW-Chariots in the flank and continue to pound on them with GW sounds ace, I've also got a shed load of the double handed Scythes from the Fanatic box set to use on them as well.

The empire forum raves about 5 man Rieksguard units running around with GW's tying up fools here and there, I'm sure there is an application as if something doesn't beat your 2+ AS you're hitting back at Str6! that's pretty bad ass.

jtrowell
24-09-2014, 16:27
Don't forget that with lances you get to strike on initiative rather than last. Against most monsters, and some other hard hitting units like MI or MC, this make all the difference.

GW are good, but lances and 1+ armor saves are great too.

For minimum size unit, I usually prefer the lance, and only use the GW on units with 10+ models.

A nice flanking unit is 6 knights with lances and shield deployed in two ranks of 3. You get 6 lances (7 if there is a champion) attacks at S5 on initiative 3 and 3 horses attacks at S3.

Technically you have zero ranks o you won't be steadfast (might be a problem against a lone monster), but this give you a smaller frontage and make the unit more manoeuvrable, and against most target this won't be important. This unit is great for flank charges in combo with another unit, to hunt warmachines and/or warmachine hunters (most won't be able to do much against fully armored knights), and they have a decent chance against medium monsters.

Kingly
25-09-2014, 16:02
Technically you have zero ranks o you won't be steadfast (might be a problem against a lone monster), but this give you a smaller frontage and make the unit more manoeuvrable, and against most target this won't be important. This unit is great for flank charges in combo with another unit, to hunt warmachines and/or warmachine hunters (most won't be able to do much against fully armored knights), and they have a decent chance against medium monsters.

Lack of ranks mitigated by the fact you could take Rieksguard and have stubborn!

NIce.

EvanM
25-09-2014, 17:57
Lack of ranks mitigated by the fact you could take Rieksguard and have stubborn!

NIce.

I think reiksguard are underrated.

people see inner circle knights and say OH! i dont have to take infantry! yippee! but no, if you dont take infantry simply because you can get S4 1+AS cav in core then you are not playing empire.
Reiksguard are a very good ANVIL. Stubborn 1+? sign me up! a unit of 5,6, maybe 10 even with command on the flanks can easily hold up a lot of different flanker units. Also you can threaten the enemy if they dont deal with you and you are fast.