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ErictheGreen
30-09-2014, 15:18
So I'm starting to put together a mono tzeentch army to get back into fantasy. i love magic, so was always going to have a level 4 leading the force. Where i'm struggling is my BSB. I want to put a ward save on him to take advantage of the MoT, but the sorceror lord already has the talisman of preservation, leaving the bsb with either a 4+ (talisman of endurance + MoT) or a 3+ but with a worse armour save, and ending up more expensive. this is combined with the fac that i only have 243 points to spend on him:

Lord
Sorceror Lord - Mark of Tzeentch, disc, enchanted shield, talisman of preservation, chaos familiar, third eye of tzeentch, level 4
This guy is primarily here for taking care of chaff units using the lore of tzeentch as the rest of the army (and army book in general) doesn't have great ways of doing that. he also gives a decent leadership leash to the chimeras

Hero
Exalted Hero - BSB
Here's where I'm stuck. If he's riding in the knight unit, does he need a ward save at all? the demonic mount is very pricy but so so good for +1T and +1W

Core
18 Warriors of Chaos - Mark of Tzeentch, Shields, full command
18 Warriors of Chaos - Mark of Tzeentch, Shields, full command
5 warhounds
5 warhounds
5 warhounds
5 warhounds
pretty straightforward here. the warriors are a grinding anvil to support the knights and the chimeras while the hounds are there for redirecting, chaff, and generally getting in the way

Special
Chimera - regeneration, flaming breath
Chimera - regeneration, flaming breath
The only thing i'm iffy on is the flaming breath. its a great addition to their hitting power, but 60 points for 2 shots of weapon is pricy, and could go a long way to boosting my BSB
8 knights of chaos - ensorceled weapons, full command, blasted standard
plan was to have the bsb go here and add some punch, as well as being protected by the standard

so yeah, what to do with my bsb? and is the army going to fall on its face?

Soundwave
30-09-2014, 17:02
Ooooh I can help here :).Welcome fellow follower of his majesty Tzeentch. I run a similar list.
The bsb. Yes well. What a pain in the a***. Try the dawnstone , equip to taste. Re rolling the armour of 1+ is great.
Now what is different in my list is...I take a hell cannon instead of 1 chimera (great with treason). And also i take a basic lvl 1 or another hero with the ruby ring, just to blast any "regen incidents".
I would also think about either a: switching weapons on one unit of warriors or b:combining the two units into one anvil/horde.
For tactics I just hang back blast and cannon away. Then brace myself for the charge with the warrior's setting up the counter charge.
if you combine the units of warriors you can judge wether or not to go hoard or go for ranks depending who you will fight. In bus mode the Tzeentch warrior block is pretty much a solid anchor.

Josfer
01-10-2014, 11:34
Exalted, BSB, MoT, Armor of Destiny, Scaled Skin, GW, Barded Chaos Steed = 234
1+ AS, 3++, 2+ LOS in the knight unit and it fits into your points.

If you drop one flaming breath or knight or two warriors or a pack of dogs you can even get a barded DM (which is really good).

GenerationTerrorist
02-10-2014, 18:09
I love this army in general. Completely agree with what Josfer has said about your BSB. That is a perfect setup on a BSB. Possibly the best available in the whole game for an infantry/cavalry model BSB.
Are you making your Sorcerer Lord a Level 4?
The Warriors and Hounds are pretty much spot on, and you can't go wrong with souble Chimaera's.

One thing I would change is drop the Knights down to 6. Otherwise you will be wasting second-rank attacks. At 45 points a pop, it aint cheap.
That should free up points for something like Soul Feeder on your Sorcerer for emergency regen when taking out chaff.

The other alternative could be to put your BSB on a Disk and have him as a moblile support unit, offering re-rolls behind your lines and dipping into combat when needed.
I've tried this a few times and it is suprisingly effective.

The basis is a great start for a list :-)

ErictheGreen
03-10-2014, 12:57
I love this army in general. Completely agree with what Josfer has said about your BSB. That is a perfect setup on a BSB. Possibly the best available in the whole game for an infantry/cavalry model BSB.
Are you making your Sorcerer Lord a Level 4?
The Warriors and Hounds are pretty much spot on, and you can't go wrong with souble Chimaera's.

One thing I would change is drop the Knights down to 6. Otherwise you will be wasting second-rank attacks. At 45 points a pop, it aint cheap.
That should free up points for something like Soul Feeder on your Sorcerer for emergency regen when taking out chaff.

The other alternative could be to put your BSB on a Disk and have him as a moblile support unit, offering re-rolls behind your lines and dipping into combat when needed.
I've tried this a few times and it is suprisingly effective.

The basis is a great start for a list :-)

Cheers for the insight guys. Will go with Josfer's build, dropping a unit of dogs for the demonic mount because of the modelling possibilities.

Not sure what you mean by wasting second rank attacks though? With the BSB in there, they get 4 S6, 14 S5, 3 S4 and a S5 stomp.

Is it just that the knights in the second rank get only one supporting attack? So losing them only actually loses 5 attacks? I was worried about them losing too many to magic and shooting before they charged so thought a bigger block would be better.
I'm not using skullcrushers because they are khorne so thought a nice knight block would be a decent hammer

Josfer
03-10-2014, 16:53
I guess he meant to take 6 wide one rank of knights to not lose out on attacks as the first rank gets 2 and the second only 1 support attack. I agree with both sides and it's a tough call. You don't want to lose knights in the first rank before you get into combat, but you don't want to overspend on additional wounds as it's a lot of points wasted per second rank knight.

CountUlrich
03-10-2014, 20:49
Knights are kind of expensive, and especially compared to skullcrushers if you are min/maxing, but they ade still good choices who can fill a role. My personal current gt list has 8 with blasted standard and a tzeentch hortense bsb in there as well; against avoidance armies you can even go 10 wide to tighten the noose on them as you work on getting your charge in.

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Ossirian
07-10-2014, 07:14
Maybe reconsider the blasted standard on th knights.
Sure it's great vs cannon balls, but the second any decent player finds you have it, they will unload all of their small arms fire into them.
The blasted standard makes knights more vulnerable to bows etc.
Eg 1/6 handgun hits will essentially become a cannon ball, s8 -6as. Bows: 1/6 s6 -3as

If you are worried about bolt throwers etc, give the hero the ironcurse icon for a Tzeentch 5++ vs warmachine weapons. Give knight discipline banner for ld9.

On a side note those dogs will cause a lot of panic tests, 8 is failable, mutant poisons on dogs aren't useless unless you opponent is gonna shoot then for some tactical reason. Pooisen makes 5 dogs more likely to kill that bolt thrower crew. Make sure you deploy the chimeras at least 6" away from any dogs to avoid the fluke panic.
Personally I'd drop one of the units and give each other unit vanguard. Personal preference ofc.

ErictheGreen
09-10-2014, 17:42
Maybe reconsider the blasted standard on th knights.
Sure it's great vs cannon balls, but the second any decent player finds you have it, they will unload all of their small arms fire into them.
The blasted standard makes knights more vulnerable to bows etc.
Eg 1/6 handgun hits will essentially become a cannon ball, s8 -6as. Bows: 1/6 s6 -3as

If you are worried about bolt throwers etc, give the hero the ironcurse icon for a Tzeentch 5++ vs warmachine weapons. Give knight discipline banner for ld9.

On a side note those dogs will cause a lot of panic tests, 8 is failable, mutant poisons on dogs aren't useless unless you opponent is gonna shoot then for some tactical reason. Pooisen makes 5 dogs more likely to kill that bolt thrower crew. Make sure you deploy the chimeras at least 6" away from any dogs to avoid the fluke panic.
Personally I'd drop one of the units and give each other unit vanguard. Personal preference ofc.

Giving the hero the iron curse icon isn't possible as he has the armour of destiny taking up all of his magic item allowance, otherwise you make a great point. I suppose I could switch him to the talisman of oreservation and take the armour of destiny on the sorceror lord, but The Lord loses his 1+ save. Worth testing

Josfer
10-10-2014, 09:42
You could give the lord the armor of destiny and scaled skin and for example the charmed shield or spell shield and then depending on your preferences ToP+ironcurse icon and either shield or GW to the BSB.

Mannfred
13-10-2014, 12:57
Actually i rate, a foot bsb more favourable.

Placing him with the knights doesn't keep him safe, there's too little wounds to cover for him...he does have on the verge of sorcerer lord longevity but it will not prevent someone from simply running down the unit due to no steadfast, and he doesn't synergies with the rest of ur army, like bsb is too far ahead from the rest of the army.

Tzeentch warriors have somewhat the best defence, but offensively they lack due to only being str4 with 2A. This is why i feel the bsb is better here with: Scaly Skin, Helm of many eyes, Dawnstone and flail - which sets u back in points and with a 1+ re-rolls ASF and Flail or GW. This will give u the punch in close combat, and give the Warriors more Omph.

That being said...while a disk lord is sweet and all, using him in combat is very wasteful, he's got too many direct damage and magic missile spells in Lore of Tzeentch to be unavailable if he every goes into combat. An exalted on a disk can very well clear chaff better than him and be cheaper.

I maybe advising a bit too much but maybe a build of sorcerer lord on foot with "scaly body, third eye of tzeentch, dragonhelm, talisman of pres, dispell scroll and iron curse icon" in the warriors with standard of discipline and a bsb out on a disk "enchanted shield, dawnstone"

just my thoughts...?

mbh1127
13-10-2014, 14:13
I run all tzeentch as well.

I would worry that the list slightly lacks real hitting power. Hand weapon and shield tzeentch warriors are not going to munch through any tough units without a buff. That leaves your knights and chimera. Both are strong units but you'll have to be careful with the placement of the chimeras. Low leadership can be a killer.

Can you drop one unit of warriors and add some chariots? These will present another target to your opponent and give you another threat.


I run a pretty similar list but I added two chariots and 5trolls with throgg.

ErictheGreen
15-10-2014, 13:11
Actually i rate, a foot bsb more favourable.

Placing him with the knights doesn't keep him safe, there's too little wounds to cover for him...he does have on the verge of sorcerer lord longevity but it will not prevent someone from simply running down the unit due to no steadfast, and he doesn't synergies with the rest of ur army, like bsb is too far ahead from the rest of the army.
definitely has merit. I'll see how fragile the BSB is in test games.


That being said...while a disk lord is sweet and all, using him in combat is very wasteful, he's got too many direct damage and magic missile spells in Lore of Tzeentch to be unavailable if he every goes into combat. An exalted on a disk can very well clear chaff better than him and be cheaper.

I maybe advising a bit too much but maybe a build of sorcerer lord on foot with "scaly body, third eye of tzeentch, dragonhelm, talisman of pres, dispell scroll and iron curse icon" in the warriors with standard of discipline and a bsb out on a disk "enchanted shield, dawnstone"
The plan is that the sorceror doesn't see combat. if he was going to do that, he'd have the crown of command at least. Tzeentch spells are mainly magic missile and direct damage, so he uses the mobility of the disc to stay out of range of charging units, but maintaining range for his spells. when I say chaff clearer - that's where he'll target spells first, to stop the small amount of units i have being redirected and gummed up by chaff.


I run all tzeentch as well.

I would worry that the list slightly lacks real hitting power. Hand weapon and shield tzeentch warriors are not going to munch through any tough units without a buff. That leaves your knights and chimera. Both are strong units but you'll have to be careful with the placement of the chimeras. Low leadership can be a killer.
yeah, placement will be key.


Can you drop one unit of warriors and add some chariots? These will present another target to your opponent and give you another threat.

I run a pretty similar list but I added two chariots and 5trolls with throgg.
one of the options i have is dropping to 5 knights, losing the blasted standard, losing flaming breath from the chimeras and losing 2 units of dogs (all advice you guys have given so far apart from the breath weapon) and adding 2 chariots. so the army composition would look more like this:

Lord
Sorceror Lord - Mark of Tzeentch, disc, enchanted shield, talisman of preservation, chaos familiar, third eye of tzeentch, level 4

Hero
Exalted Hero - BSB

Core
18 Warriors of Chaos - Mark of Tzeentch, Shields, full command
18 Warriors of Chaos - Mark of Tzeentch, Shields, full command
5 warhounds
5 warhounds
chaos chariot - mark of tzeentch (pretty worthless, but fits the theme)
chaos chariot - mark of tzeentch

Special
Chimera - regeneration
Chimera - regeneration
5 knights of chaos - ensorceled weapons, full command

Josfer
15-10-2014, 14:10
Drop a unit of warriors or at least some of the warriors and give your hero some equip and breath weapon to the chimeras. Units of 15 (or 14 with a character) are fine (if not facing skaven with dreaded 13th...). You should have your core covered with 19 warriors (+BSB 5 wide means +3 ranks), 2*5 dogs and 2 chariots. DM, scaled skin, great weapon, armor of destiny and then either to the knights or warriors and he's golden.

I guess the knights have MoT too?

ErictheGreen
15-10-2014, 14:26
knights have mark too.

forgot to add BSB equipment - armour of destiny, barded demonic steed, halberd (like the I), scaled skin.

so the only thing to potentially add back in is breath for the chimeras. could drop some warriors for that but not sure jhow necessary the breath weapon is

Mannfred
15-10-2014, 14:48
Very necessary....like dont leave home without it necessary. A well placed flame template hits 28-25 models in horde formation "human base size" :)

Josfer
16-10-2014, 11:37
A lot more necessary than the warriors number 16, 17 and 18 ^^

ErictheGreen
16-10-2014, 17:36
having tested it last night, agreed.

GenerationTerrorist
17-10-2014, 19:30
Glad you liked our advice - Lots of it is from different experiences using the army. Some of it works for, some not.
(If we all agreed, it would be boring!)

Any chance of a little battle report from your game last night?

ErictheGreen
20-10-2014, 10:37
Short rundown - played a simple battle line scenario against wood elves as i was getting back into the game. only 2000 points so i didn't have the second chimera and only 12 warriors in each block. did get flaming breath on the chimera though, to try it out.
sorceror rolled up blue fire, treason, bolt of change, glean magic and gateway

he had a units of wild riders, some skirmishing archers that bounced between woods with armour ignoring arrows. a block of archers he bunkered a level 2 in. the horse riding unit that counts as a spellcaster that he stuck his level 4 in and 3 of the ambushing horse riders.

turn 1 i managed to ding some wounds off the unit with his level 4 in using magic while the chimera went up the flank ready to charge or flame next turn. his turn 1, the wild riders charged a block of tzeentch warriors and bounced (i dispelled occams on that unit as otherwise the warriors would have been toast), causing 1 casualty and taking 4 in return. wasn't all bad for him though, the armour save ignoring arrow unit bounced into a forest in the middle of my lines and blew away my knights, leaving the BSB with 2 wounds. because all the forests were venom thickets (he rolled 3 with his acorn thingy), i didn't fancy my chances running my blocks through it and he really limited the mobility of my main battleline.

my turn 2, the chimera charges the wizard's block and holds them there for 2 turns as he passes a lot of break tests and i pass a lot of regen and scaly skin saves. the warriors finished off the wild riders and lurched forward to get to the archer block. my wizard again rolls well with magic and picks a couple more of his skirmishers off. his uses his scroll on gateway.

Turn 3 is where it all gets a bit weird. I charged his archers with my warriors and the bsb and win, break him and run him down. he then proceeds to spend the rest of the game firing everything he has into the sorceror (after the chimera is finished off by the sisters) while i fly around, pinging wounds off stuff with magic missiles. I can't catch him with the bulk of my army, so i resort to covering each of the forests with a unit so if the skirmishers bounce into them i can get a charge, as they are the only real threat left. once i'd got a couple of glean magics and a gateway off on his lords unit it was over unless he killed the sorceror, who just stood up to ludicrous amounts of firepower. and that was it, i'd killed enough for the win and he couldn't claw it back once i moved the sorceror away from most of his shooting threats.

i know wood elves play avoidance so i've been getting some more games in with the army. so far the only units to underperform have been the knights. I've stopped putting the BSB in there to let them roam a bit more, but they just haven't been doing a huge amount for their points. they are drawing cannon fire away from my chimera though. tempted to try dragon ogres instead as i have struggled a mbit against monsters, with bolt of chage and the chimera being the only real threat i have to them.

so yeah, lore of tzeentch has been useful, tzeentch warriors plus chariots is very solid, and chimeras are awesome.