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The Irish Commissar
01-10-2014, 12:50
So while building my tomb kings chariots I'd thought I'd ask what the best unit size to have in let's say a 2000 point game and how best to put them in ranks.

Folomo
01-10-2014, 14:36
It depends on what you expect them to do and the rest of your list.

The most common sizes are:
- 3-4: Used as heavy chaff. Their ideal target are unit that lack heavy armor and lack numbers, so chariots, monsters and similar units.
- 6-7: Used as shook troops. Deploy them in two ranks for 3-4D6 S5 impacts. they have greater durability and can deal with medium units or tougher units in small units. They require to get the charge, so you need to have chaff.

Both these units benefit a ton from nehek magic, so going heavy into other lores may not be the best option when using them.

Josfer
01-10-2014, 15:05
What Folomo says. As chariots I heavily prefer impact hits, so I'd rather have two units with one rank than one unit with two ranks. And if you take 3 or 4 in a unit depends on the points you want to spend.

I suggest taking 4. With 4d6 impact hits you probably deal more than 10 wounds after everything and then you get another 16 attacks which probably result in another few wounds. If that's enough to break steadfast, you'll probably destroy them. So units of 15 are "sure kills", 20 are somewhat risky, everything larger will eat the charge and then grind the chariots to death.

Also if you take 4 you have 8 bow shots per turn as long as you don't charge, which is nice too if you can pot shot some chaff like chaos warhounds or sabre tusks.

EvanM
02-10-2014, 04:01
cant you give them the banner of flaming attacks? thats a great buff on these guys. slam into a unit that relies on regen to survive and those impact hits might wreck the unit before they strike back.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
02-10-2014, 05:50
Units of 3-4 chariots is great for clearing out flanking forces, or crashing into flanks and rear late-game for some CR support.

However units of 6 chariots need to be used cautiously. If they get caught off the charge that's nearly 400 points just gone...they simply don't have the staying-power off the charge to survive. Further if they charge in unsupported they're toast. They'll kill a bunch right off the bat, but have very little chance of breaking steadfast against most opponents and will be ground down the next round or two.

Some people have success running TWO units, and I see some merit in that. Or pairing them with snakes, or something similar. Just beware of their flaws. I found 2 units of 3 to be much more threatening than a single unit of 6, as they have greater threat range that way.

The Irish Commissar
02-10-2014, 09:30
I like the sound of 2 units of 6 alright. That gives you a two deadly unit that no one wants to get charged by. For example if I seen 10 high elf swordmasters, would they be the perfect unit to charge.

EvanM
02-10-2014, 15:24
swordmasters would be perfect but you need to kill them all when you charge.

units of 6 are cool but unwieldy.

Josfer
02-10-2014, 15:48
Why not 3 units of 4? Nobody wants to get charged anyways and you have another unit.

@SMs: Not all, but most of them. Each SM left will probably deal one wound to the chariots.

Folomo
02-10-2014, 15:50
I don't think that 6 chariots are considerably more unwieldy than 3... unless you are thinking on using them in only 1 rank.

EvanM
02-10-2014, 16:55
2 units of 4 is what id go for, one with flaming banner. put em on the flanks and either take out chaffing things or threaten flank charges on the enemy deathstar.

CountUlrich
02-10-2014, 22:26
I like the sound of 2 units of 6 alright. That gives you a two deadly unit that no one wants to get charged by. For example if I seen 10 high elf swordmasters, would they be the perfect unit to charge.

You'll never see 10 Swordmasters in any competent list ... MAYBE 14 in an mmu list, but more likely 21 or 28, and sometimes if it's a BotWD deathstar even more.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

EvanM
02-10-2014, 23:42
Sometimes people run them in units of 5-7

The Irish Commissar
03-10-2014, 07:21
How many chariots could you reliably get into a 5 across or a 10 across enemy. Also is it best against small elite units or hordes.

jtrowell
03-10-2014, 09:20
Be aware that units of 4 (or 8) have a rather large footprint, the same as a horde of 20mm infantry, so taking several might made them very hard to manoeuver, unless you put them in front of your main line for a suicide charge

I often use one or two unit of 3 for great effect on my flanks, or sometimes one unit of 4 near one of my main blocs to threaten a combo charge.

Remember that they have bows too, so even if it's not their main role, this mean that while you position them they can be firing on ennemy chaff.

Also, an unit of 6 can fire in two ranks (chariots don't get supporting attacks for the second rank, but unless I missed something they can still fire with the second rank), giving you 12 shots (now that each charioteer have a bow in the 8th edition book)

I also always take a champion in the unit, with its large footprint it often mean that some ennemies can only attack him, meanin that you might for exemple take 4 wound, but with two on them on the champion and the 2 others on the rest of the unit you would still have all your models fighting. That plus the potential for a challenge should the need arise.

For me the chariots are one of the most balanced units (in a good way) :

- useful in most lists but not a no brainer
- adequate cost
- can be used in many different ways and sizes of unit
- good synergy with the rest of the army
- effective, but with exploitable but not crippling weaknesses

The snake riders are also in a similar place, their 3+ save is good but not at a knight level so you still feel like a medium cavalry at best, and their point cost is appropriate (expensive but you get something rather powerful)

They are what the mournfangs or demigriff knights might have been if they have been costed according to their worth (ie : more than they are)
And I say that while having both empire and ogre armies (plus TK of course)

Josfer
03-10-2014, 10:31
How many chariots could you reliably get into a 5 across or a 10 across enemy. Also is it best against small elite units or hordes.
If you can align them perfectly, you can get 4 chariots into a 5 across enemy even if he's 20mm. With a horde you'll have an easy game to get them all in as you only have to hit 7-8 of them (and the last chariot will fight corner to corner).

With flank charges you'll probably have a problem getting all 4 in if the enemy doesn't bus his troops or plays spearelves or other quite large hordes.

EvanM
03-10-2014, 15:55
I would do 4 across, no more. The footprint of chariots makes big units hard. No more than 6 imo can be used without complications especially due to terrain

jtrowell
06-10-2014, 13:15
If you take 6 (or 8) chariots, note that their main role won't be to kill hordes (but they can combo charge to generate CR of course), but to kill solid targets like monster and the like, as the rank bonus is added to the impact hits str, and taking 3d6 S5 auto hits will *hurt* almost any monster (most monsters having T6, the increase from S4 to S5 double the effective number of wounds inficted on such targets)

Lilike
07-10-2014, 06:05
Tomb kings chariots is a fair but over costed unit that benefits the TK army by being flexible enough to serve many roles. The primary roles for chariots are:

Removing medium-hard chaff and glass cannons:

Most chaff in the TK book is weak and have an limited ability to remove medium-hard chaff units. Chariots do not have this problem. A small unit of chariots can remove most chaff units. Removing glass cannons is another potential role, units such as wild riders are difficult to handle for a lot of the choices in the TK book but for chariots getting the charge is typically enough.

Finishing of already weakened hard hitting units:

Since impact hits are resolved before melee it is typically possible to remove units that has been reduced in number by charging them with chariots.

Weakening large hard hitting but fragile units:

The fact that impact hits are resolved before melee gives chariots a role in reducing the numbers of units of hard hitting but fragile models. This should only be done if the chariot unit is ill positioned and likely to be taken out of the game without much impact or if the unit is deemed too dangerous to approach with the conventional hammers before being reduced in size. This effect can be greatly amplified by using multiple chariot units.

Monsters:

Most monsters with 5 W and T 5 or less are a potential target for chariot units. Small units can typically remove the monster without being struck back if the monster has been reduced below 2-3 wounds, larger units can typically handle monsters which are at full wounds.

Since chariots are fast in the context of the TK army it is often tempting to rush them ahead of the army and charge targets which are outside of the units listed above. This is typically a bad choice. Keep your chariots back and be careful with your positioning. Chariots can be useful throughout the game and becomes increasingly powerful as enemy units becomes depleted, do not commit them against the wrong target or you will not gain much utility from them. Remember that, like most of the units in the TK list, they are very strong against some units but weak against most.

I personally like the idea of one or more unit of 3-4 chariots in every TK list. Their flexibility is large enough to warrant it. Larger units seems harder to justify since they will leak a lot of points if they are caught out of position (easy for TK units) unless they are played with great care and skill.

Josfer
08-10-2014, 09:43
To further elaborate one of the points of Lilike: With a very strong magic phase and access to some damage spells (shems, casket, etc.) and shooting (archers, sepulchrals and WMs), you can easily weaken some stronger units until they are ready for a chariot charge.

Stymie Jackson
09-10-2014, 18:05
Don't forget Chariots are arguably the most synergistic unit TK have with the Lore of Nek. One buff spell and an entire Chariot is healed on average. They love the killing blow and smite spells. The base chariot has 6 attacks, not counting impact hits (which does benefit from the KB spell!). Smite makes that 10 attacks plus impact hits, per chariot. They wreck elf units (if chariots can get in the flank, and they should or you failed) and just about any chaff unit in the game.

Having flashbacks to when my Dwarf BSB ate 12 KB attacks one time...

TK cannot march? No big deal, no chariot can. And no other chariot in the game can get two fast reforms per turn thanks to the normally maligned Signature spell (16" chariot movement FTW).

Oh, and the crew is elite...as far as such things go for undead. WS3 (yes, that's leet for skeletons) with spears and two attacks each, and a bow each.

Best unit in the book, after the Casket of Hos.