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EvanM
03-10-2014, 22:56
I kind of want to tailor my list to beat VC. So here it is:



unit
number
equipment


Archmage
1
Lvl 4 High magic, dispel scroll, talisman of endurance


(general) Archmage
1
Lvl 4, talisman of preservation, Book of Hoeth


Lothern Sea Helm
1
BSB, shield of Myrwyrm, shrieking blade


Ellyrian Reavers
5
Bows and Spears


Spearmen
33
FC , standard of discipline


Phoenix Guard
20
SB + M, gleaming pennant


Swordmasters
28
SB + M, swiftness banner


White Lions
28
SB + M, BOTWD


Dragon princes
5
FC, flaming banner


Archers
11
SB + M


Lion Chariot
1



Silver Helms
9
SB + M, Shields









The archers and spearmen are bunkers. I do not know what the general's lore will be yet... i am thinking Life, Heavens, Shadow, or Metal.

My missile fire has been mostly ineffective against his army but I think this list has the versatility to take him on. Hes a more experienced player than I am, but his list is mostly grave guard, ghouls, skeletons, a corpse cart, black nights, and then a bunch of vampires. Sometimes hexwraiths, or a mortis engine. He hasnt used his terrorghiest yet but he doesnt have 2 (if you are gonna tell me to get reaver bow and potion of strength to kill it with) and he doesnt use zombies.

BTW we also play with slightly more reliable magic rules so doing a double Lvl 4 is fine.

Camman1984
04-10-2014, 09:36
Which is the lore of the initiative tests? If you are tailoring versus vampire counts then those spells are useful at thinning his hordes.

I personally think small units or archers are a bit of a waste versus vampire counts as they will plink of 2/3 models off a horde that get straight back up. I would rather a similar amount of points of something cheap like spearman and the go for the crumble, nothing like seeing a unit kill 15 selling on the charge then have another 15 crumble to combat res.

EvanM
04-10-2014, 14:42
yeah i am not bringing nearly any shooting because of that fact. my archers are just a bunker (because i have those models) for one of my wizards.

Kahadras
04-10-2014, 16:23
BTW we also play with slightly more reliable magic rules so doing a double Lvl 4 is fine.

How so more reliable? Is it really worth throwing another 200 points plus at another Archmage?

The list lacks flyers which I always think are a real high point of the High Elf book. I certainly never leave home without a couple of Eagles and a Phoenix.

EvanM
04-10-2014, 16:32
How so more reliable? Is it really worth throwing another 200 points plus at another Archmage?

The list lacks flyers which I always think are a real high point of the High Elf book. I certainly never leave home without a couple of Eagles and a Phoenix.

this is our magic:

Magic adjustments: version 3
--winds of magic = 3d6 pick the highest 2 for power dice, highest 1 for dispel dice
--miscast are determined based on casting total (2 sixes and a 4 result in a miscast total of 16)
--ONLY break concentration on a miscast, not on a roll of 1 or 2 to cast.

Miscast chart: this chart is based on the casting total when you miscast. You subtract your wizard level from the casting total so high level wizards have a greater ability to miscast without having as much magical backlash as the lower level wizards.
(ex: a level 4 rolls 4 dice, gets 2 sixes, a 3 and a 1. The casting total is a 20 but the wizard subtracts his level so it is a 16 on the misfire chart)


14 or less - lose d3 power dice from the power pool
15-17 - wizard and every model in base contact takes 1 S10 hit
18-21 - wizard loses 1 wizard level and the spell he just cast
22-25 - spell is also "cast" as if by the other player on a valid unit of his choosing
26 or more - the wizard takes d6 S10 hits and his unit takes 4d6 S10 hits


also, magic is SUPER FRICKEN IMPORTANT. YES IT IS COMPLETELY WORTH IT. last time i lost because teclis got killed and he was my only mage. Combat characters always die and never kill anything important so i am done with them. magic is better.

also, I HATE THE PHOENIXES. So yeah theres that. I might proxy some eagles....

Kahadras
04-10-2014, 17:10
Magic is important but it can be very hit and miss (even with your groups ajustments). I'm just concerned that well over 500 points of the army have gone into magic and I'm not sure that it can make that much of a return. Then again I haven't played with your ajusted magic rules but I can see why you might think magic based Lords are better than those which are combat based. It's a shame about not liking the Phoenix as they are a really solid choice when it comes to blending mobility and combat power.

EvanM
04-10-2014, 18:03
Phoenixes are good but NO. there are a few things i will never do: 1. use phoenixes. 2. use death magic. 3. play an army without any infantry.
theres more but whatever these are the biggies

yes magic is much more reliable. 500 pts out of 3k is very worth it IMO. especially because i do not want to lose all my magic/dispelling ability if i lose one character.

Kahadras
05-10-2014, 00:43
Phoenixes are good but NO. there are a few things i will never do: 1. use phoenixes. 2. use death magic. 3. play an army without any infantry.

Don't worry I have my own list of things I will never do. 1. Take Alarielle. 2. Take the Banner of the World Dragon.


yes magic is much more reliable. 500 pts out of 3k is very worth it IMO. especially because i do not want to lose all my magic/dispelling ability if i lose one character.

I have to admit that I'm not really a fan of the system you use just from the notes you've put up. I'm also a bit confused by the miscast total. Is the wizards magic level added to the miscast total? In the second line you said the miscast total is worked out by the dice rolled. On the miscast chart though you seem to add the wizards power level onto the miscast total before subtracting it. This means that a higher level wizard gains no benefit in respects to his magic level when it comes to mitigating miscasts. I can see why you think magic is so good under these rules. You get more power dice on average compared to dispel dice. Gatling is easier due to the no loss in concentration on the roll of 1 or 2 and you can play the miscast table to make sure you are never in much danger of losing more than a few power dice.

EvanM
05-10-2014, 01:39
Allarielle is a deathstar maker. i am only using BOTWD for 2 things: 1) to protect teclis when i take him from some things because dangggg that guy is weak or 2) to keep one of my elite units from getting wrecked by a vampire lord.

also heres how this works:

1) you roll 4 dice, 2 sixes, 2 threes. you are level 4. your total casting value is a 6 + 6 + 3 + 3 + 4 = 22, however on the miscast chart you can subtract your wizard level and be at an 18.
2) YES you can roll 1 dice at spells with more apathy because it makes no sense that simply half assing something would break concentration
3) rolling 6 dice and getting a miscast gets a MUCH WORSE RESULT than rolling 2 dice and getting a miscast.-----------think about it, right now if you accidentally miscast, you can just as easily blow up as a guy trying to channel all of the winds of magic he possibly can. is that right? i say no. so basically accidental miscasts arent that bad, but on purpose ones BETTER BE WORTH IT. thats the point here.

also we are playing at 3k. in order for magic not to suck gonads you need it to be scaled based on the points value of the game and this system is good for 3k.

Kahadras
05-10-2014, 11:24
think about it, right now if you accidentally miscast, you can just as easily blow up as a guy trying to channel all of the winds of magic he possibly can. is that right? i say no. so basically accidental miscasts arent that bad, but on purpose ones BETTER BE WORTH IT. thats the point here.

Oh don't get me wrong I would like to see the miscast table altered to take into account how many power dice you put into a spell but I'm not sure about the idea of picking up two dice as a level 4 mage knowing that the worst thing that can happen is losing a few power dice.


Magic adjustments: version 3
--winds of magic = 3d6 pick the highest 2 for power dice, highest 1 for dispel dice
--miscast are determined based on casting total (2 sixes and a 4 result in a miscast total of 16)
--ONLY break concentration on a miscast, not on a roll of 1 or 2 to cast.

Miscast chart: this chart is based on the casting total when you miscast. You subtract your wizard level from the casting total so high level wizards have a greater ability to miscast without having as much magical backlash as the lower level wizards.
(ex: a level 4 rolls 4 dice, gets 2 sixes, a 3 and a 1. The casting total is a 20 but the wizard subtracts his level so it is a 16 on the misfire chart)

14 or less - lose d3 power dice from the power pool
15-17 - wizard and every model in base contact takes 1 S10 hit
18-21 - wizard loses 1 wizard level and the spell he just cast
22-25 - spell is also "cast" as if by the other player on a valid unit of his choosing
26 or more - the wizard takes d6 S10 hits and his unit takes 4d6 S10 hits

This is where I was getting confused as all wizard get exactly the same amount of magical backlash from their spells i.e what you roll on the dice is where you look on the table.


also we are playing at 3k. in order for magic not to suck gonads you need it to be scaled based on the points value of the game and this system is good for 3k.

I'm honestly not sure about the scaling thing either. All it seems to do is give players more reasons to go magic rather than combat. It's more likely that you are going to get more power dice vs dispel dice and you can throw 1 or 2 or 3 dice into spells knowing that not much bad stuff is going to happen.

EvanM
05-10-2014, 14:29
The point is that you are supposed to be able to throw 2 dice without worrying that much. It will break concentration and lose some PD but honestly it's like a minor error.

Yeah sorry the wording needs to be cleaned up a bit.

But anyway it's not so much that it forces people to go magic heavy as it allows people to use a proportionate amount of magic for the size of the game.

Kahadras
05-10-2014, 19:26
But anyway it's not so much that it forces people to go magic heavy as it allows people to use a proportionate amount of magic for the size of the game.

I feel that it does push magic. Due to the extra power dice you'd be mad not to go for a high level magic caster. If you don't take a high level caster you are also going to suffer on the defencive as your opponant is going to have more power dice on average than a normal game. So magic users get more dice and a miscast table that benefits multiple small dice spells. Under this system I would feel that a level 4 and a level 2 would almost be mandatory. I'd look at lores like High, Light and Death where I can realisticaly get off most of the spells on 2/3 dice. Book of Hoeth would be a must as it not only can grant a better roll for the power of the spell but can also reduce the casting value if you miscast.

EvanM
05-10-2014, 19:34
I feel that it does push magic. Due to the extra power dice you'd be mad not to go for a high level magic caster. If you don't take a high level caster you are also going to suffer on the defencive as your opponant is going to have more power dice on average than a normal game. So magic users get more dice and a miscast table that benefits multiple small dice spells. Under this system I would feel that a level 4 and a level 2 would almost be mandatory. I'd look at lores like High, Light and Death where I can realisticaly get off most of the spells on 2/3 dice. Book of Hoeth would be a must as it not only can grant a better roll for the power of the spell but can also reduce the casting value if you miscast.

well i did have another idea about magic thats slightly more complicated but it essentially allows you to be equally good at dispelling even if you have no magic users, so you could forgo them all together and still be fine.

also, 8th already makes it so that a lvl 4 is mandatory (you waste the power dice if you dont invest enough in magic and your opponent wrecks you if you dont have a +4 to dispel) so idk what you are trying to say is different about this.

Kahadras
05-10-2014, 20:25
8th already makes it so that a lvl 4 is mandatory (you waste the power dice if you dont invest enough in magic and your opponent wrecks you if you dont have a +4 to dispel) so idk what you are trying to say is different about this.

In a system where magic is already concidered really good (although not as mandatory as you indicate IMHO) the system you use makes magic more reliable. The downsides of magic are random spells, the possibility of rolling low power dice and the inherent dangers of miscasting. The system your group uses increases the likelyhood of getting a decent number of power dice and allows players to manage miscasts (to a certain extent). On top of this the lowest three results on the miscast table are pretty mild compared to Detonation, Magical Feedback and Calamitous Detonation from the BRB especialy when we concider the potential loss of power dice.

EvanM
05-10-2014, 20:46
well all of that would be countered if i simply changed it so that:

roll 3d6, highest 2 are power dice, lowest 2 are dispel dice.

that way even though magic is more manageable, your opponent will be getting plenty of controll on the dispelling end of things as well.

the brb is stupid in a lot of ways. you got a lvl 4 thowing 2d6 at a spell like fireball and whoops you rolled a miscast and whoops again YOU ARE DEAD. GAME OVER. no thats just ********. if you only roll 2 dice then whats the worst possible thing that could happen? sure miscasts are unlikely on 2 dice but still.

also you get things were people roll 6 dice at a spell and either ignore the miscast (haha i have BOTWD so suck on my IF dwellers) or they dont care becuase THAT miscast is no worse than the 2 dice one.

so you need miscasting to Police overpowering attempts made by players so that people REALLY have to think about whether its worth the risk. you cant roll six dice at a miscast and expect to live, is the point.

i stand by that being a more logical and mediated system.

Kahadras
05-10-2014, 21:28
i stand by that being a more logical and mediated system.

Well you're welcome to keep using it if you feel it works for your group. For myself the concern is that you are improving the magic phase (and therefore wizards) without altering any costs. OK my Archmage might throw a couple of dice into a fireball and die but he could also drop a Steamtank into a big hole or take off half a unit of Phoenix Guard with a single spell. That's what I pay the points for and I understand the risks and rewards inherent in the system. In my mind if I throw a 2 dice Fireball I better have thrown it for a good reason. If I was using your gaming groups system then combat Lords would never get a look in. It would be all the magic users all the time. How many people in your local group don't run magic heavy under these rules?

EvanM
05-10-2014, 21:33
another thing is that i we are simply testing these rules. warhammer is super random. sometimes its like you could end up making one bad dice roll that just ruins the entire game.

the other things i have to make magic NOT as good:
magic resistance applies to Save-or-die spells so you still get a 5+ ward against say dwellers if you have MR2.
again, more dispel dice to balance it out
also we are playing at a higher points level so the whole 2d6 winds of magic thing at 2k pts is about as good as 3d6 winds for 3k (drop the lowest)

all in all, you take away the impunity of 6 dicing game winning spells and add some more reliability. no need for points costs to change.

Kahadras
05-10-2014, 22:02
all in all, you take away the impunity of 6 dicing game winning spells and add some more reliability. no need for points costs to change.

People can still throw 6 dice at a spell in your groups sytem though. It encourages 2D6/3D6 casting as all that happens is the occasional IF in return for a couple of lost power dice but players can still scream '6 DICE FTW!' and throw everything into a huge Purple Sun. I don't know about other people but the increased reliability of not only the miscast table but also of the power/dispel dice split is a solid buff to magic casters IMHO.

EvanM
05-10-2014, 22:10
reread my miscast table. you scream 6 dice ftw! and then you either obliterate your casters unit and the caster himself (theres no way you survive) on a 26+ OR your opponent gets to cast it at you as well oon a 25.

so you get IF purple sun on six dice? okay well your casting total was 25 so now i get to cast one at you too *troll face*

Laniston
05-10-2014, 23:10
Do you have access to some sisters? They'd be great against VC for anti ethereal, str 4 -2 armour save, and flaming attacks for regen and the occasional unit in a building.

EvanM
05-10-2014, 23:13
I really wanna get a unit of 20 sisters. I just love all of high elves (minus the phoenixes)

Kahadras
06-10-2014, 01:08
reread my miscast table. you scream 6 dice ftw! and then you either obliterate your casters unit and the caster himself (theres no way you survive) on a 26+ OR your opponent gets to cast it at you as well oon a 25.

so you get IF purple sun on six dice? okay well your casting total was 25 so now i get to cast one at you too *troll face*

I did read your miscast table and, as I indicated, the players can 'play the table'. OK I'm going to run the risk of taking 1 D6 strength 10 hits but the casters unit is never going to get hit because the wizard simply leaves the unit before casting the spell (unless it's carrying BotWD). As a Wizard Lord has 3 wounds and can take a 4+ ward save he also stand a good chance of being able to tank at least 1 miscast (and would combine well with Lore of Life and Healing Potion to get him back up to full wounds to go again). If I happen to grant the spell to you I can play the system by taking short range spells (my wizard is in range of what he wants to hit, your wizard isn't) such as Dwellers. Making a flying caster would be another way around the problem especialy in the early game.

EvanM
06-10-2014, 01:34
I did read your miscast table and, as I indicated, the players can 'play the table'. OK I'm going to run the risk of taking 1 D6 strength 10 hits but the casters unit is never going to get hit because the wizard simply leaves the unit before casting the spell (unless it's carrying BotWD). As a Wizard Lord has 3 wounds and can take a 4+ ward save he also stand a good chance of being able to tank at least 1 miscast (and would combine well with Lore of Life and Healing Potion to get him back up to full wounds to go again). If I happen to grant the spell to you I can play the system by taking short range spells (my wizard is in range of what he wants to hit, your wizard isn't) such as Dwellers. Making a flying caster would be another way around the problem especialy in the early game.

well BOTWD is annoying to begin with, but also if you leave the unit then the wizard would take d6 S10 hits PLUS 4d6 S10 hits (that wouldnt hit the unit because there is no unit) and that would ABSOLUTELY kill anyone even with a 2++ ward save.

Oh and you dont have to "cast" the re-spell with your wizard, you just get to do it. INFINITE range. so short range spells rolling a 25 dont matter. plus you can do it anywhere on the board. so you cast dwellers on me? i do it to any of your units i wish. you cast mindrazor? i cast mindrazor on any of my units. no range restriction.

so again getting a 26+ will KILL any wizard who aint in a unit and probably kill one who is (perhaps i should make it so the wizard takes d6 wounds with no saves of any kind)

Kahadras
06-10-2014, 02:32
well BOTWD is annoying to begin with, but also if you leave the unit then the wizard would take d6 S10 hits PLUS 4d6 S10 hits (that wouldnt hit the unit because there is no unit) and that would ABSOLUTELY kill anyone even with a 2++ ward save.

OK. I'm starting to have a hard time with these rules. So if the wizard isn't with a unit he takes 5 D6 strength 10 hits? You need to update the rules then as they treat the wizard and his unit as two seperate cases in terms of damage dealt.


Oh and you dont have to "cast" the re-spell with your wizard, you just get to do it. INFINITE range. so short range spells rolling a 25 dont matter. plus you can do it anywhere on the board. so you cast dwellers on me? i do it to any of your units i wish. you cast mindrazor? i cast mindrazor on any of my units. no range restriction.

OK this is bit silly. If I IF Purple Sun I have to roll to see how far it goes (it might not even reach the enemy). In responce the opposing player plops the template directly down on any unit he likes in the game and shoots it in any direction he chooses. I think your group really needs to have a think about some of these rules and I'm suprised people haven't raised these points already. The table seems to go from...

1. D3 Dice lost
2. 1 S10 hit on the caster + another couple of S10 hits to the unit
3. -1 caster level, lose the spell.

straight to...

4. Your opponant gets to re-cast the spell for free with infinite range and no line of sight required
5. Your caster and the units he's with take a ton of damage and if he's not in a unit then you may as well take him off the table.

EvanM
06-10-2014, 03:03
OK. I'm starting to have a hard time with these rules. So if the wizard isn't with a unit he takes 5 D6 strength 10 hits? You need to update the rules then as they treat the wizard and his unit as two seperate cases in terms of damage dealt.



OK this is bit silly. If I IF Purple Sun I have to roll to see how far it goes (it might not even reach the enemy). In responce the opposing player plops the template directly down on any unit he likes in the game and shoots it in any direction he chooses. I think your group really needs to have a think about some of these rules and I'm suprised people haven't raised these points already. The table seems to go from...

1. D3 Dice lost
2. 1 S10 hit on the caster + another couple of S10 hits to the unit
3. -1 caster level, lose the spell.

straight to...

4. Your opponant gets to re-cast the spell for free with infinite range and no line of sight required
5. Your caster and the units he's with take a ton of damage and if he's not in a unit then you may as well take him off the table.


its still a work in progress. we havent actually come across the higher level miscasts yet but we do both agree that the system should work to reward safer spell casting and punish 6 dicing with real downsides.

Mannfred
13-10-2014, 09:47
Alrighties so if u want to tailor you can simply Teclis up, go for high magic and then Flames of the Phoenix your way to victory. Double up with two Level twos one with a power stone. And just double the spell on like skeleton or zombie bunkers...with Banner of the World Dragon to catch the miscasts - easy walk in the park...

Lol why not just tailor against everyone and take triple frost Phoenix...."third one being a character mount"

What u take else is vanilla and up to u...

It all works really...grab reavers or asf eagles and just snipe necromancers...truly it's an easy march up....

Aranel
14-10-2014, 22:11
Do you have access to some sisters? They'd be great against VC for anti ethereal, str 4 -2 armour save, and flaming attacks for regen and the occasional unit in a building.

This......

Knifeparty
14-10-2014, 23:19
Honestly, to beat Vamps all you really have to do is take a hard hitting unit, buff it up with some magic spells and suicide charge it into the enemy generals unit. If the the general is a Vampire lord he'll probably have a magic weapon in which case you just take the BotWD and neuter him. Chalk up a **** load of combat res by killing the unit and the general should pop. Once he's dead you just go around cleaning up the mess he left behind.

EvanM
15-10-2014, 02:14
Honestly, to beat Vamps all you really have to do is take a hard hitting unit, buff it up with some magic spells and suicide charge it into the enemy generals unit. If the the general is a Vampire lord he'll probably have a magic weapon in which case you just take the BotWD and neuter him. Chalk up a **** load of combat res by killing the unit and the general should pop. Once he's dead you just go around cleaning up the mess he left behind.

I actually see the strategy of this.


As far as my high elves go, I am trying to decide what to do with my force. Would a lothern sea guard horde with Lvl 4 High mage, Annointed, and BSB with BOTWD work?

MikVanH.
17-10-2014, 03:24
Have any one thought of the idea of using a 50 phoenix guard unit i mean they are pretty much broken,
50 Phoenix guard
Noble Bsb Banner of World Dragon
Archmage Lvl 4 High Magic with book of hoeth.
Korhil, Mage lvl 1 beasts. You have a Unit with a 4+ ws basic, 1 atack +1 str, repats (always strike first high int), 2+ ward save against magic attacks, any spell cast in the leve 4 creates a 3+ ws instead of a 4+, wissan wild form on lvl 1, and get +1 str +1 tou, +hand of glory and some walked between world ethereal now, stubborn on ld9, PHOENIX GUARD FTW!

EvanM
17-10-2014, 03:31
It would cost 2k pts to assemble the unit you are describing.

Tarrell
17-10-2014, 03:36
Scrapp the pheonix Guard, either get flyers instead or another unit of sword masters for choppy goodness.

Knifeparty
17-10-2014, 03:36
Would a lothern sea guard horde with Lvl 4 High mage, Annointed, and BSB with BOTWD work?

Probably not. I wouldn't consider Sea Guard to be a hammer unit. It's got to be Sword Masters, White lions or Dragon Princes most likely, or a combination there of.

MikVanH.
17-10-2014, 03:54
It would cost 2k pts to assemble the unit you are describing.

But for a unit that pretty much cant be destroyed, last time i created it i didnt cost that much ill guess around 1200 max.