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View Full Version : Hear me generals of chaos, I need your aid this time



Neknoh
24-06-2006, 12:36
I am not the person to post a lot of lists, I usually do very well with the ones I choose, but, this time, I am going up aggainst a Bretonnian Player aggainst whom I lost our last battle, and I am going for a completely different aproach this time.

The battle will be of 1250 pts, and I can expect him to bring his full alotment of characters, 1 Paladin, 1 Battle Standard Bearer and 2 Damsels (or 1 Damsel), decked out with a large ammount of Dispell Scrolls (one damsel will carry two, the second will carry one) and rank-removing vows as well as non-armoursave weapons. He will also bring two lances, one of 8 knights without characters and one with 5 knights and his two Paladins.

So, this list of mine still has 120 pts left, unfortunately, my Warhounds and a chunk of my other models are at a friends house and I wont be able to pick them up before tuesday, seeing as he is away, so, I'll have to do without them for this battle (grumble).

Last time, I based my army arround infantryblocks and used Mounted Nettes and an Exalted on Steed to smash through flanks and hunt for his skirmished archers and his damsels.

What I am mostly wondering is what to use my remaining 120 pts for, I've been considering both a scroll caddy (hate the thought though), a Greatweapon-wielding Wargor of Khorne to go with my allready anti-knight herd or a unit of Centigors, mind you, I do not have all too many models at my disposal for this list, and the Shaggoth STAYS.

So, here comes the list:

Exalted Champion of Chaos Undivided
- Helmet of Many Eyes, Additional Handweapon... 129 pts
This guy goes into the Marauders which I'll leave out in the open, hoefully baiting him into a charge aggainst them, with him striking first with 5 strength 5 attacks, I hope to at least put a dent in whatever Bretonnians he might have, what worries me though is that him and three ranks might not cut it aggainst even a normal rank of Bretonnians, what do you guys reckon? Perhaps mark him Khorne and swap his additional handweapon for an Aze of Khorne for that nice little Killingblow?

Wargor of Khorne
- Greatfang, Shield... 149 pts
Well, anti armour and with only strength 4, the Bretonnians wont get their improved ward and will have to make due with a measly 6+ Ward, he goes into the Herd.


15 Marauders of Chaos
- Lightarmour, shields, Full Command... 130 pts
Maybe not the best configuration, but it's all I got in Marauders for another two weeks. Exalted goes in here, deploying the unit four by four

5 Chosen knights of Khorne
- Banner... 290 pts
My true hammer-unit, these babies should even be able to actually take a Bretonnian charge and then dish out enough hurt to at least stick arround for a second round of combat, in which they'll most likely butcher any bretonn lance

Beastherd
8 Gors, 8 Ungors
- Full Command... 129 pts
Wargor goes in here, these are here to swoop in between the two lances and then charge the flank of one of them, of course, by charging the flank fof a lance, I will remove my own Rank Bonus, but, I will get quite a few attacks in from my Gors in there as well as from my wargor, however, if I do get the chance, I'll charge the front or the rear (preferably rear) with the Herd and it'll still allow me to get my Wargor (or both if I include two) into close combat with the Bretonnians.

Dragon Ogre Shaggoth
- Lightarmour, Greatweapon
Big, nasty, rankbreaking and moving like Fast Cavalry (the only unit I got atm except for Mounted Daemonettes (might include for my remaining points)), his strength 7 attacks should serve well in putting a dent in the Bretonnian armour, otherwise, I'll use him for distraction and to bring down those Skirmished bowmen, although, I can't deny that a rearcharge with him into a bretonnian lance would be very nasty.

So, this comes to 1130 pts, I have 120 pts to spend (could bump to 150 if needed), what do you think I should do honoured generals of Chaos (oh how I miss my trolls).

Latro
24-06-2006, 15:01
Exalted Champion of Chaos Undivided
- Helmet of Many Eyes, Additional Handweapon... 129 pts

Wargor of Khorne
- Greatfang, Shield... 149 pts

I crunched a few numbers and I'm afraid it's unlikely the Exalted will kill more than one knight before they can slam into your vulnerable Marauders ... probably not enough to win or tie the combat.

The same goes for the Wargor. He looks nice at first sight, but 2/3 to hit and 2/3 to wound quickly bring down the kills you can expect ... slightly under 1.5 per round.

Why not try a BSB with that expensive banner that makes everything stubborn within a certain range? Even Marauders and Beastherds become very reliable with a re-roll on their own or the generals leadership. It will also most likely come as a surprise because that Banner is not often seen on the battle-field. Make your General survivable to grind away at the knight and you have a nice and dependable battle-line.


15 Marauders of Chaos
- Lightarmour, shields, Full Command... 130 pts

Under the right circumstances a very nice unit. It either needs help in making break-tests or a way to ensure it doesn't get charged by those knights.


5 Chosen knights of Khorne
- Banner... 290 pts

I prefer Knights of Khorne with the Warbanner, but Chosen are also very good at what they do. Still, if you need to find a few points ...


Beastherd
8 Gors, 8 Ungors
- Full Command... 129 pts

Great unit to lure in a charge when you "accidently" happen to be too close to the knights ... then again, if you're stubborn thats not such a bad thing.


Dragon Ogre Shaggoth
- Lightarmour, Greatweapon

Great Monster to have around for flanking nasty units of knights that find themselves stuck in your stubborn units.


Hope it helps!

:cool:

Neknoh
24-06-2006, 17:06
Hrmm... I did consider the Banner of the Gods, interesting idea, very interesting idea indeed, especially if I manage to get a Shaggoth into a Bretonnian Flank (I think he actually even could be able to survive a charge with some luck), being Stubborn with 5 strength 7 attacks.

So, perhaps drop the Greatfang in favour of a normal Greatweapon then? Although, that would give the Bretonnians two 1/3 chances of saving rather than a single 1/6.

Hrmm... a third Wargor indeed, but the banner of the Gods or the Mark of Khorne, that is the big quesiton.

Latro
24-06-2006, 17:30
One way or another you will have to deal with the Bretonnian charge. This can be either done with cheap fodder units to bait and/or divert them or with something tough or unbreakable enough to receive and hold the charge ...

- Without Warhounds or Marauder horsemen the bait and diverting tactics will be very hard to pull off (asuming your opponent is a competent general)

- I don't think your regiments are tough enough to hold against a Bretonnian charge without some magical items to help them with the break-test.

I think the Banner of the Gods will be your best bet. Not that it can't be done without it ... but it will be a very hard and bloody fight that way.


:cool:


PS something like this:

Exalted Champion of Chaos Undivided @134 pts
- armour of damnation, great weapon

Aspiring Champion BSB, mounted @221 pts
- banner of the gods

(note: more expensive than a Wargor, but also more durable ... Bretonnia has non line-of-sight damage spells I believe and you don't want to have this character suddenly drop dead behind your lines.)
Wargor of Khorne @109 pts
- chaos armour, great weapon

15 Marauders @130 pts
- full command, lgt arm, shields

5 Knights of Khorne @210 pts
- warbanner

Beastherd (8/8) @129 pts
- full command

Dragon Ogre Shaggoth @306 pts
- lgt arm, great weapon

Neknoh
24-06-2006, 17:44
I think I just realised something.

I'll remove the Command from the marauders, leaving me with 12, these 12 will then be stretched out in front of my army, one long screen.

Behind this, I will put the Shaggoth and the Chosen knights (Where to put the Exalted is still in planning), the Shaggoth might alternatively be positioned at the flank of the marauders as the army moves up.

As the marauders flee the charge, this hopefully leaves both lances stranded, this will allow my beastherd to zoom in between the two Lances and my Knights to charge the front of one whilst the Shaggoth charges the flank of the second, this will hopefully tie down both units for two rounds (my fight and his fight) untill my Beastherd then can charge the unit where they are needed.

This would allow me to try and win without using the banner of the Gods, although, it might be very wise to include it still, seeing as stubborn Chosen Knights of Khorne will do quite a dent in his Bretonnian lance, and a stubborn shaggoth is just that, a very very big and very very mean critter that just wont budge.

Or should I perhaps proxie the Shaggoth as a Chaos Giant with Mutant Monstrosity? A bodyslamming Giant can do quite nasty things to a unit of Knights, don't you agree?
Of course, a Giant is too slow to be able to take full advantage of an exposed flank due to its slower movement (as discussed in my Shaggoth tactica), a Shaggoth is a lot better flanker than a Giant.

Latro
24-06-2006, 17:53
Or should I perhaps proxie the Shaggoth as a Chaos Giant with Mutant Monstrosity? A bodyslamming Giant can do quite nasty things to a unit of Knights, don't you agree?
Of course, a Giant is too slow to be able to take full advantage of an exposed flank due to its slower movement (as discussed in my Shaggoth tactica), a Shaggoth is a lot better flanker than a Giant.

A Giant is for getting hit and not breaking while a Shaggoth is for hitting ... and a Shaggoth with the Banner of the Gods nearby can do both. :evilgrin:


:cool:

kyussinchains
24-06-2006, 18:32
I'd say give your exalted champ the helm and a great weapon, his S5 means they get the ward anyway, it's better for him to have a 6+ armour and 5+ ward instead of a 4+ armour and 5+ ward, that single extra attack doesnt negate the S7, although you'll get lots and lots of wounds against commoners, you'll beat them anyway (not that he'll be taking any!)

the giant is also good because he can do his squish, eat or trousers attacks and the bret player gets no save whatsoever, you've also got the chance of yelling and bawling them too, which in smaller games is nastier due to not having high Ld generals around.

it's something to consider anyway.

I'd also drop the great fang and plump for the axe of khorne, that way he can be used to try and sneakily kill characters too, his S4 means they only get a 6+ ward, plus you save 25 points.

good luck!

Latro
24-06-2006, 18:45
I'd say give your exalted champ the helm and a great weapon, his S5 means they get the ward anyway, it's better for him to have a 6+ armour and 5+ ward instead of a 4+ armour and 5+ ward, that single extra attack doesnt negate the S7, although you'll get lots and lots of wounds against commoners, you'll beat them anyway (not that he'll be taking any!)


... that's still only about 1.2 dead knights each round. Meanwhile the Marauders still get butchered, you fail the break-test and get run down. It ain't worth it.


:cool:

Neknoh
24-06-2006, 21:58
Did some fiddling based on the ideas given by Latro:

Exalted Champion of khorne
- Berserker Sword, Chaos Steed... 191 pts
He should be able to chop up any unit he goes up aggainst, with 8 attacks in the first round and 7 attacks from then and onwards if he looses the first combat

Aspiring Champion of Chaos undivided
- Army Battle Standard Bearer, Banner of the Gods, Barded Chaos Steed... 246 pts
He is here to provide a mobile, well armoured and useful Stubborn and Tarpit abillity to all units, he will be able to follow any of my units and go where he is needed.

5 Chosen knights of Khorne
- Banner, Warbanner... 315 pts
Same as before, just slightly more killy

12 Marauders of Chaos
- Lightarmour, Shields... 84 pts
They are to be stretched out in one long screen in front of my army, serving as a missile and charge screen, fleeing when the Bretonnians charge in and hopefully stranding the knights (perhaps I should say Kniggits :p)

Beastherd
6 Gors, 8 Ungors
- Full Command... 110pts
They are here to act as a highly mobile tarpit, and, the Gors with their T4 and 2 attacks each should be able to grind away at the bretonnians if I get a flankcharge with them, we all know the golden rule, make the enemy roll enough armoursaves and he will fail them

Dragon Ogre Shaggoth
- Greatweapon, Lightarmou... 306ts.
Well, a stubborn strength 7 freewheeling 7" moving monster with Terror... why not?

Okuto
24-06-2006, 23:28
I honesty question the usefulness of the Shaggoth.....it just doesn't seem right for Brets......I still feel like you should leave it.....

Chosen Knights are dead killy but without meatshields, it can't dicate where it wants to fight......

Think about sticking in some marauder horsemen, they are prefect for baiting, I often pair mine's with the chosen knights and they're a pain in the **** when I play with my Brets, baiting my Errants into a pointless charge.

I play Slannesh but I find myself getting utterly beaten by Brets very often, I really should take that beast herd.....

I often don't like goint character heavy but in this case, I can see why, I still think you should get some marauders though, they really help and their cheap, any fast cav is good against brets!

When I play against chaos with my Brets I often make sure all of the fast cav is dead, Chosen knights aren't usually a prob unless they have hounds or some sort of shield in front of it, I usually throw my Grail knights at them or throw two-three lances at it, it's usually enough to wipe them out, though thats after it's escort is destroyed

DirtJumper
25-06-2006, 01:54
Definatly take the Banner of the Gods. Brets are all about breaking a unit on the charge, because after that, they aren't that great (in fact, without the charge, knights tend to really suck due to low # of models, and low str), I would also say throw a sheild on the Champion. He can use it with the sword, and it doesen't take up many points. The sword is probrably your best bet, because it will give you an extra 3 attacks against Knight (which are unit str 2 each). good luck in your game.

Neknoh
25-06-2006, 08:50
I can't throw a shield at the Champion seeing as that would purposely take me over the limit. I do know that the Berserker Sword will grant me extra attaacks, with 8 attacks in the first round and all rounds after that untill I loose the battle (Then I have 7), things will go downward for the Bretonnians.

I cannot field Marauder Horsemen or Warhounds, as said, they are not at home right now, thus, I cannot use them. However, a Shaggoth does have Movement 7, is extremely durable vs strength 3 Bowfire and he can break ranks, he is most likely my best anti-bret weapon, remember, this Bretonnian player does not have Grailknights, he only field two lances of Kotr, one of them at minimum size.

Latro
25-06-2006, 11:00
I think your list has the tools to get the job done, the only think that might become a problem is a nasty combination of magic items and/or vows ... but your most important units are quite survivable so they should be fine.

Now go forth and spread the Chaos!

(and don't forget to tell us what happened)


:cool:

Neknoh
25-06-2006, 12:13
I'll see if I can remember to reckord what happens during the game so that I can write a battlerepport for you guys, your help has been most appreciated.

Nowthen, two days to go untill the battle

kyussinchains
25-06-2006, 16:36
mathematically the great fang will kill more knights than the berserker sword (average of 1.85 per turn opposed to 1.48) this is assuming a frenzied exalted champion in both cases.

admittedly it will cost you 10 points extra.

I'd still choose the giant over the shaggoth m'self, just for the points saved, and the yell and bawl attack could win you the game in one fell swoop!