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EvanM
07-10-2014, 20:33
the frostheart (as many of you know) gives any enemy in contact with it ASL and -1 S.

some players believe this buff stacks, so 2 frosties in contact with a unit make it -2 S.

This is not the case. I know its not the case (i remember reading something where someone used it as an example) but i do not remember why and I want

1. to make it more known that it doesnt stack

2. for someone to tell me the specific rule that makes it not stack

oh also if you disagree with the fact that it doesnt stack, go ahead and post nonsense here too for other people to criticise.

3eland
07-10-2014, 20:57
Page 66 of mini rulebook under Special Rules, first paragraph at the end.


Unless otherwise noted, the effects of multiple special rules are cumulative.

I fail to see what the issue is.

Blizzard Aura:



Any enemy unit in base contact with a Frostheart Phoenix has the Always Strikes Last special rule and suffers -1 to its Strength (to a minimum of 1)

Seems to me like they stack as it does not say it doesn't.

EvanM
07-10-2014, 21:09
"any enemy unit in base contact with A frostheart..." A frostie. A. singular. one. theres only one. so if you are in contact with 5 of them you are still in contact with a frostie so you are only at -1S.

and yeah if it so happens that this isnt true then i am gonna scream because WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY

3eland
07-10-2014, 21:14
Please look towards the Stegadon Engine of the Gods. (if you have the book). Arcane Configuration:


If you have one or more Engines of the Gods on the battlefield at the start of your Magic phase [...]

also Bastiladon Solar Engine:


All friendly units with the Cold-Blooded special rule that are within 6" of one or more Bastiladons with a Solar Engine gain +1 Initiative.

Therefore it would have to be stated
Any enemy unit in base contact with one or more Frostheart Phoenix [..]

It will always tell you if it stacks or not. In the case of the Engine it does not stack and clearly says it does not. Unfortunately unless Ward forgot to include it, it stacks.

It sucks, I know, I face it all the time.

Imperator64
07-10-2014, 21:17
I know that i've read the wording "one or more" when GW says that rules don't stack. And it don't say "one or more" frosties.
Them damn ninjas.

MOMUS
07-10-2014, 21:20
the frostheart (as many of you know) gives any enemy in contact with it ASL and -1 S.


some players believe this buff stacks, so 2 frosties in contact with a unit make it -2 S.


Why does it not stack? I believe the description doesn't specifically say it doesn't stack. Other innate abilities usually state they can't stack if that was the intention. For example the engine of the gods specially says its ability to -1 casting value doesn't stack.




This is not the case. I know its not the case (i remember reading something where someone used it as an example) but i do not remember why...

This isn't a valid counter argument and does not lend weight to your theory.




...and I want


1. to make it more known that it doesnt stack


2. for someone to tell me the specific rule that makes it not stack


oh also if you disagree with the fact that it doesnt stack, go ahead and post nonsense here too for other people to criticise.


Even though I regularly play with it not stacking* I'm going to play devils advocate here and support the idea of it being able to stack.
As an aside, claiming that people who disagree with you are posting nonsense could come off as a little obnoxious. I know some of your theories/ideas/suggestions are usually debunked, proven incorrect or otherwise swiftly put down but there is no need to put a sentence such as that at the end of your OP, it's a bit ungentlemanly and could be seen as a red rag for those wanting to flame your thread.




*Mo's independent FAQ

copesh
07-10-2014, 21:50
run 3 of these bad boys and take your enemy down to 1 str and stomp them to crunchy frozen bits.

MOMUS
07-10-2014, 21:54
run 3 of these bad boys and take your enemy down to 1 str and stomp them to crunchy frozen bits.

+1
hex/debuff for strength 0 insta kill :yes:

theunwantedbeing
07-10-2014, 22:03
The argument against them stacking is fairly simple.

First off, we have the Errata which changes the wording of the rules from multiple special rules stacking, to different special rules stacking and adding that you gain no benefit from having the same special rule twice.
Secondly we just defer to the Frostheart special rule Blizzard Aura which grants ASL to the enemy in base contact as well as causing -1 strength.

So the enemy is already under the effect of the Blizzard Aura, so having a second (or third or more) model with the Blizzard Aura special rule won't cause any additional effect.


At least, that's the best argument I can come up with for them not stacking given the rules available.
Hopefully that will be of some help to somebody.

EvanM
07-10-2014, 22:28
The argument against them stacking is fairly simple.

First off, we have the Errata which changes the wording of the rules from multiple special rules stacking, to different special rules stacking and adding that you gain no benefit from having the same special rule twice.
Secondly we just defer to the Frostheart special rule Blizzard Aura which grants ASL to the enemy in base contact as well as causing -1 strength.

So the enemy is already under the effect of the Blizzard Aura, so having a second (or third or more) model with the Blizzard Aura special rule won't cause any additional effect.


At least, that's the best argument I can come up with for them not stacking given the rules available.
Hopefully that will be of some help to somebody.


OKAY this is what i meant. All rules stack IF they are different. for instance i believe you cant cast wildform twice on the same unit, it doesnt stack so theres no point.

the errata as you say says that ALL special rules dont stack against themselves (unless specified to do so) which makes sense.

besides, cant we all agree that the aura shouldnt stack?? the ******** chicken is good enough already without providing benefits to spam them

copesh
07-10-2014, 22:28
The argument against them stacking is fairly simple.

First off, we have the Errata which changes the wording of the rules from multiple special rules stacking, to different special rules stacking and adding that you gain no benefit from having the same special rule twice.
Secondly we just defer to the Frostheart special rule Blizzard Aura which grants ASL to the enemy in base contact as well as causing -1 strength.

So the enemy is already under the effect of the Blizzard Aura, so having a second (or third or more) model with the Blizzard Aura special rule won't cause any additional effect.


At least, that's the best argument I can come up with for them not stacking given the rules available.
Hopefully that will be of some help to somebody.

This.
It makes no sense for them to stack.

EvanM
07-10-2014, 22:39
This.
It makes no sense for them to stack.

YES

okay guys all i was trying to say was exactly what he said.

so in your next game against HE tell him he cant stack his blizz auras :)

btw im a high elf hipster too, no frosties for me.

3eland
07-10-2014, 22:41
I totally missed that in the errata. My apologies EvanM.

copesh
07-10-2014, 22:42
Frosty Chicken can be useful but they are best used in all cav or flying circus.
I am an infantry HE player.
So, for me they aren't useful.
I think the 2 skycutters with BT I can get for the same price are far more effective.

EvanM
07-10-2014, 22:54
I totally missed that in the errata. My apologies EvanM.

I dont take it personally, what i do care about is that people stop misinterpretting the rules (albeit not on purpose) to make strong stuff stronger.

so I just hope this thread gets viewed enough to stop it.

and true, frosties are best in the circus list. besides the mortal sin it is to take a flying circus list, you shouldnt be rewarded for charging in with a bunch of chickens.

and i think the phoenix is good but I dont need it. you could use it in an infantry army to keep your guys alive. making the enemy -1S is essentially the same as making our guys +1 T which is epic.

copesh
07-10-2014, 22:57
I prefer shooting them before they get to me.

EvanM
07-10-2014, 23:10
I prefer shooting them before they get to me.

what is shooting? OH you mean that thing they do in 40k... no one has any shooting, dont you know that?

Imperator64
07-10-2014, 23:13
I don't think-1 stregnth is a special rule.

Imperator64
07-10-2014, 23:16
For gods sake, might be wrong on this. I'll look again tomorrow when i'm sober.

EvanM
07-10-2014, 23:42
For gods sake, might be wrong on this. I'll look again tomorrow when i'm sober.

blizzard aura is a special rules. its Erratta'd that special rules do not stack with themselves, only with other special rules (unless specified otherwise). so you can use blizzard aura and say enfeebling foe together but not two blizzard auras.

SteveW
08-10-2014, 00:55
OKAY this is what i meant. All rules stack IF they are different. for instance i believe you cant cast wildform twice on the same unit, it doesnt stack so theres no point.



Wildform is a spell effect and stacks. Doubling up on buffs is a valid strategy.

forseer of fates
08-10-2014, 01:25
People who abuse frost hearts should be tarred and feathered.

EvanM
08-10-2014, 02:14
Wildform is a spell effect and stacks. Doubling up on buffs is a valid strategy.

oh ***** not again...... soooooo does this mean you can have say 4 lvl 1 lore of beast casters and cast all 4 wildforms on the same unit for a +4 S +4 T?

SteveW
08-10-2014, 02:37
oh ***** not again...... soooooo does this mean you can have say 4 lvl 1 lore of beast casters and cast all 4 wildforms on the same unit for a +4 S +4 T?
Yes. Just like you can double bubble soulblight for a -2 S and T on an entire army.

EvanM
08-10-2014, 03:22
Yes. Just like you can double bubble soulblight for a -2 S and T on an entire army.

so its just static special rules that dont stack with themselves?

SteveW
08-10-2014, 03:46
so its just static special rules that dont stack with themselves?
Its just special rules, static or otherwise. Spells are not special rules but can sometimes confer special rules as a spell effect. If that happens, the special rule portion follows the special rule rules. So an Elf with ASF gains no additional benefit from a spell conferring ASF but would still get the +1 Attack it might also give.

EvanM
08-10-2014, 03:59
Its just special rules, static or otherwise. Spells are not special rules but can sometimes confer special rules as a spell effect. If that happens, the special rule portion follows the special rule rules. So an Elf with ASF gains no additional benefit from a spell conferring ASF but would still get the +1 Attack it might also give.

I see. good point. I understand. it makes sense.

Don Zeko
08-10-2014, 04:22
This has to some extent been covered, but there's no need to get into a more general argument about whether or not special rules can stack; the wording of the book is clear. The first clause describes what units are affected by the Frostheart's special rule (any enemy unit in base contact with a frostheart phoenix), while the second clause describes what the effect of the rule is on those units (ASL and -1 Stength). So if you have a unit in base with two phoenixes, you ask yourself "is it an enemy unit in base contact with a frostheart phoenix?" Yes, it is, so it gets ASF and -1 strength. The fact that they make this somewhat more clear for things like the bastilodon and the casket of souls doesn't mean that this isn't clear enough. if they had wanted it to stack, it should have read "the frostheart phoenix confers the Always Strikes Last rule and -1 strength (to a minimum of 1) on any enemy unit in base contact with it."

Wesser
08-10-2014, 07:36
I've said for years... High Elves are so damn OP! Or my regular buddy is a good player...anyway

Does this even matter? The Frost Phoenix for some weird reason have T6 (!??) and a 5+ armour save. The save is no big deal and almost anything wound the Phoenix on 6+ anyway. Relatively few units (White, Lions, Grave Guard, Chaos Warriors etc. with greatweapons and few characters) would even be affected by a further -1 (they would need STR6 to be affected)

It would only make sense in a multiple combat (limiting the enemy's chances at wonding ordinary elves), but if you're fighting an elf unit and 2 Frost Phoenixes I can't imagine it matters much either way at that point.

EvanM
08-10-2014, 14:51
I've said for years... High Elves are so damn OP! Or my regular buddy is a good player...anyway

Does this even matter? The Frost Phoenix for some weird reason have T6 (!??) and a 5+ armour save. The save is no big deal and almost anything wound the Phoenix on 6+ anyway. Relatively few units (White, Lions, Grave Guard, Chaos Warriors etc. with greatweapons and few characters) would even be affected by a further -1 (they would need STR6 to be affected)

It would only make sense in a multiple combat (limiting the enemy's chances at wonding ordinary elves), but if you're fighting an elf unit and 2 Frost Phoenixes I can't imagine it matters much either way at that point.

the point isnt to hit them with multiple phoenixes and keep them from hurting the phoenix as easily, its to hit them with say 2 phoenixes in the flanks and an elf unit to the front.

then (if they stacked, which they dont) the enemy would have been -2 S against the elf unit (which is what matters) not the phoenixes (does not matter usually)

Wesser
08-10-2014, 16:08
the point isnt to hit them with multiple phoenixes and keep them from hurting the phoenix as easily, its to hit them with say 2 phoenixes in the flanks and an elf unit to the front.

then (if they stacked, which they dont) the enemy would have been -2 S against the elf unit (which is what matters) not the phoenixes (does not matter usually)

A unit hit in the flank by 2 Frost Phoenixes and engaged by some elves to the front? I still maintain it would have to be one hell of a deathstar to matter even a Little to the elf unit. I still don't see this rule ever mattering in practice, but ruleswise I agree that it don't stack

I'm not gonna argue it very hard though since I doubt the situation will ever arise. Think I'll focus on keeping Star Lances out of the hands of Drakemasters instead, bwahaha

EvanM
08-10-2014, 16:49
A unit hit in the flank by 2 Frost Phoenixes and engaged by some elves to the front? I still maintain it would have to be one hell of a deathstar to matter even a Little to the elf unit. I still don't see this rule ever mattering in practice, but ruleswise I agree that it don't stack

I'm not gonna argue it very hard though since I doubt the situation will ever arise. Think I'll focus on keeping Star Lances out of the hands of Drakemasters instead, bwahaha

do you really care that the starlance cant be wielded by a drakemaster? whatever i think a better idea is to run the drakemaster with ogre blade and enchanted shield, then what you do is cast regrowth every time the guy dies because the champion keeps getting resurected first, essentially an unkillable character.

Wesser
08-10-2014, 17:55
do you really care that the starlance cant be wielded by a drakemaster? whatever i think a better idea is to run the drakemaster with ogre blade and enchanted shield, then what you do is cast regrowth every time the guy dies because the champion keeps getting resurected first, essentially an unkillable character.

I don't know whats worse

- Casting Regrowth on Cavalry when you got Phoenix Guard or White Lions instead

- Spending 84 points on a champion who'll still be inferior to a basic Blood Knight (and I'm the only one that I know of WHO thinks to bring those to tournies...). I mean... WHO is STR 5 suppsoed to scare?



Actually does people field Dragon Princes as other than 6-7 strong with no upgrades? Seems churlish to start sinking real points into them.... especially the drakemaster. The Star Lance could make him a serviceable can-opener and character sniper, but Ogre blade on him sure ain't scary

copesh
08-10-2014, 18:46
Wesser, you just discounted 90% of the HE list.

Only WL get to Str 6. Of course characters and monsters can get that or higher.

Str 5 is actually quite potent - especially with multiple attacks.

I like running 5 DPs with command, ranger standard, and the champ with the obsidian blade. They work really great at flankers and chaff/warmachine killers.
They can even peel off a few wounds from high armoured elements and swing the combat.

EvanM
08-10-2014, 19:04
Wesser, you just discounted 90% of the HE list.

Only WL get to Str 6. Of course characters and monsters can get that or higher.

Str 5 is actually quite potent - especially with multiple attacks.

I like running 5 DPs with command, ranger standard, and the champ with the obsidian blade. They work really great at flankers and chaff/warmachine killers.
They can even peel off a few wounds from high armoured elements and swing the combat.

I like the concept of using dragon princes as a heavy chariot (essentially). 5 man unit with banner of eternal flame is nice. charge a monster or something with regen and hit him with 11 S5 attacks oh wait HITS because you probably reroll to hit on a 3+ that ignore his regen and probably wound on a 4+ or 5+ which means 3-5 wounds on anything with regen on the charge before they attack

i plan to use this on a corpse cart and things like that.

sorberec
08-10-2014, 22:50
The argument against them stacking is fairly simple.

First off, we have the Errata which changes the wording of the rules from multiple special rules stacking, to different special rules stacking and adding that you gain no benefit from having the same special rule twice.
Secondly we just defer to the Frostheart special rule Blizzard Aura which grants ASL to the enemy in base contact as well as causing -1 strength.

So the enemy is already under the effect of the Blizzard Aura, so having a second (or third or more) model with the Blizzard Aura special rule won't cause any additional effect.
.

The enemy is being affected by a unit that has Blizzard Aura but does not have the Blizzard Aura special rule itself. Blizzard Aura is a special rule on the Frostheart which gives enemy units in base contact ASL (a special rule) and -1 Strength (not a special rule).

Therefore, going by what the errata says, the enemy unit does not "benefit" from having ASL multiple times (not that there would be any benefit to having multiples of ASL in any case...) but would be affected by the -1 Strength aspect of Blizzard Aura for each Frostheart in base contact with the unit if not for how the rule is worded regarding "in contact with a Frostheart" (although with the standard of GW's rules writing it wouldn't surprise me to learn the -1 Strength was supposed to stack)

Wesser
09-10-2014, 08:07
Wesser, you just discounted 90% of the HE list.

Only WL get to Str 6. Of course characters and monsters can get that or higher.

Str 5 is actually quite potent - especially with multiple attacks.

I like running 5 DPs with command, ranger standard, and the champ with the obsidian blade. They work really great at flankers and chaff/warmachine killers.
They can even peel off a few wounds from high armoured elements and swing the combat.

I speak against spending almost 100 pts on a unit champion and I "discount 90 % of the HE list"???

How much does that unit you mention cost? The champion alone is 89 points so we're probably approaching some 270 points for a 5-man cavalry unit with STR3? At this point we don't have to discuss debuff stacking anymore. Just take a Frost Phoenix instead

EvanM's concept is somewhat more solid since monsters are a problem for HE. IMHO any attempt to sink more points than that into Dragon Princes isn't too smart as it just makes them a target for things they can't handle

SteveW
09-10-2014, 13:35
Wesser, its an 84 point champion that can outfight most armies heroes and hang with some lords. Also, he comes out of special instead of heroes(that used to matter) and can be resed with regrowth.

Wesser
10-10-2014, 07:38
Units of 5 Dragon Princes or similar tends to die only slightly after Great Eagles, and if the champion snuffs it is probably because the whole unit have.

Aside from a Frost Phoenix being just plain better for the same points I don't understand spending 270 points on what's essentially a chaff unit... heck Tiranoc Chariots seems better

copesh
10-10-2014, 20:25
frankly, if someone focuses on the 5 man DP team, then they have done their job.
They are a shock troop and very good in that role.
You can also do the giant bus of them - but you lose the benefit of the extra att on the profile - which makes it much less optimal.

my comment was about yours saying str3 makes them useless. Most of the HE list is str 3 - so if that is what makes a unit uselss then 90% of the list falls into that category.

EvanM
10-10-2014, 23:00
frankly, if someone focuses on the 5 man DP team, then they have done their job.
They are a shock troop and very good in that role.
You can also do the giant bus of them - but you lose the benefit of the extra att on the profile - which makes it much less optimal.

my comment was about yours saying str3 makes them useless. Most of the HE list is str 3 - so if that is what makes a unit uselss then 90% of the list falls into that category.

if dragon princes were S4 they would be BEASTS (maybe making them also cost like 6 pts more) but S3 is okay, they are shock troops. you want to use them like a chariot: slam into something, kill it quick, go after something else.

Malagor
11-10-2014, 00:05
Can we get back to the topic at hand instead ?

SteveW
11-10-2014, 02:44
The wording on the buff is ambiguous but when you look at the other buffs that do not stack, they say that they do not stack. I usually just play it as not stacking and make sure things like that are talked about before the game.

Lord Dan
12-10-2014, 08:50
Sorry, I'm still not convinced. The "special rules do not stack" errata was obviously intended for things like multiple instances of ASF on a model. More specifically, it doesn't say you can't be affected by a special rule twice, only that it will have no effect.

So, no, being under Blizzard Aura twice cannot give you ASL twice. But -1 S isn't a special rule, and I can't think of any reason why that wouldn't stack.

Malagor
12-10-2014, 09:38
Yeah I agree.
As Sorberec pointed out earlier, Blizzard Aura is a special rule that applies to the bird, not the unit that it's in close combat with, a rule that gives the opponent a special rule and a stat-change.
No one will disagree that the ASL doesn't stack since the FAQ has been clear that those don't stack in any way but stats changes do tend to stack unless stating otherwise.

EvanM
12-10-2014, 14:34
I know this argument is weird but if you think about what a blizzard aura would actually be IRL it would be a shroud of freezing wind and stuff that slowed down and weakoned the enemy. It really doesnt make sense that 2 phoenixes would freeze the unit twice as much, just make get the aura onto more units in a multi combat.

from a fluff perspective that makes sense from my point of view that it doesnt stack for that reason.

Lord Dan
12-10-2014, 15:48
I agree from a fluff perspective, but that's not the question this exercise is trying to answer. There are tons of rules in this game that make absolutely no sense from a fluff or power perspective. The Cauldron of Blood shouldn't allow rerolls to wound for ranged attacks, but under its current rules it does. The BoTWD shouldn't allow ward saves against miscast results, but under its current rules it does. You shouldn't be allowed to re-roll a whole host of leadership tests, like Stupidity, with a BSB nearby, but under the current rules you can.

Likewise, two Frosthearts shouldn't confer -2 to the S of the unit they're fighting, however under the current rules I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't.

EvanM
12-10-2014, 15:52
I agree from a fluff perspective, but that's not the question this exercise is trying to answer. There are tons of rules in this game that make absolutely no sense from a fluff or power perspective. The Cauldron of Blood shouldn't allow rerolls to wound for ranged attacks, but under its current rules it does. The BoTWD shouldn't allow ward saves against miscast results, but under its current rules it does. You shouldn't be allowed to re-roll a whole host of leadership tests, like Stupidity, with a BSB nearby, but under the current rules you can.

Likewise, two Frosthearts shouldn't confer -2 to the S of the unit they're fighting, however under the current rules I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't.

I play high elves. I would trade the stupid frostheart rule so that those other rules werent so bad.

One thing that really really pisses me off is that with the empire book they wrote all the rules necessary to keep you from breaking the units. hurricanums dont stack, they dont, it says they dont. they dont give +1 to hit with shooting either. Which is FINE

BUT, FRICKEN ELVES GET ALL THE BROKEN RULES. Like wtf? seriously its like they wrote the elves so that they could be broken.

Lord Dan
12-10-2014, 15:56
I play high elves. I would trade the stupid frostheart rule so that those other rules werent so bad.

One thing that really really pisses me off is that with the empire book they wrote all the rules necessary to keep you from breaking the units. hurricanums dont stack, they dont, it says they dont. they dont give +1 to hit with shooting either. Which is FINE

BUT, FRICKEN ELVES GET ALL THE BROKEN RULES. Like wtf? seriously its like they wrote the elves so that they could be broken.
Your comments about the Empire book being underpowered in the other thread are the result of GW over-thinking the design process and consequently erring on the side of caution by charging more per-model than they should have for most of the infantry units.

In line with that, I feel like most of the Elven "broken" rules are oversights. They probably didn't mean for Frosthearts to stack any more than they meant for Cauldrons to grant re-rolls to wound for shooting, but unless these things get FAQ'd in another direction the rulings seem quite clear. The timidity of the Empire book is one side of the spectrum, while slip ups like this represent the other end.

Just be grateful it's not ambiguous like Predatory Fighter or Wood Elf enchanted arrows.

EvanM
12-10-2014, 16:40
Your comments about the Empire book being underpowered in the other thread are the result of GW over-thinking the design process and consequently erring on the side of caution by charging more per-model than they should have for most of the infantry units.

In line with that, I feel like most of the Elven "broken" rules are oversights. They probably didn't mean for Frosthearts to stack any more than they meant for Cauldrons to grant re-rolls to wound for shooting, but unless these things get FAQ'd in another direction the rulings seem quite clear. The timidity of the Empire book is one side of the spectrum, while slip ups like this represent the other end.

Just be grateful it's not ambiguous like Predatory Fighter or Wood Elf enchanted arrows.

very very very good points.

i get it. I am seriously thinking I could totally do this better. GW has said time and time again that they only care about selling you nice looking models. the rules are just extra stuff, as "extra" to them as the fluff is.

So a community agreed upon FAQ would be all you need to really really fix the game, and basically all i would want is 1) to get rid of the stupid stuff that makes no sense whatsoever that they arent FAQ-ing themselves, and 2) get the armies to a point where you can have a lot of options to play a balanced game.

right now the books are often written with holes that lead to "broken" rules, or they are written too cautiously and end up ruining everything especially when compared with broken stuff in other books, but if we could band together and agree "you know, witch elves are undercosted" , "you know, greatswords are overcosted", and "you know, the frosthearts hex shouldnt stack", and all of the stupid F-d up stuff would be fixed.

Lord Dan
12-10-2014, 16:43
They used to do community FAQs - anybody remember Dire Wolf?

EvanM
12-10-2014, 16:58
Community faq would be awesome. I might look into that.

MasterSplinter
12-10-2014, 18:11
They used to do community FAQs - anybody remember Dire Wolf?


Community faq would be awesome. I might look into that.

That would indeed be very nice - and certainly alot faster than GW's ones!

Canīt we get that going on here? Like all the debated questions in some sort of poll?
Lord Dan what happened to your weekly poll?^^

Malagor
12-10-2014, 18:22
That would indeed be very nice - and certainly alot faster than GW's ones!

Canīt we get that going on here? Like all the debated questions in some sort of poll?
Lord Dan what happened to your weekly poll?^^
Except a community FAQ will never be offical and just like every thing else, this community cannot agree on anything.
GW are the only ones that can release a FAQ that will put a end to all arguments, no one else.
Mean let's say we do a FAQ and rule that PF allows second rank to get the extra attack and I face a LM player who uses this FAQ, I can easily say "sorry, GW didn't release this FAQ so it doesn't apply" and you know what, I would be in the right.
House-rules is just fine naturally but a community FAQ will be pointless since it can be shot down in 1 second by your opponent and your opponent will be right to do so.

SteveW
12-10-2014, 20:10
At the store I play at we have an FAQ/ errata just for league play. Like how predatory fighter is front rank only, ASF+ASL+ASF=ASF, wood elf enchanted arrows are one unit per army, and so on.

Lord Dan
12-10-2014, 20:55
Like how predatory fighter is front rank only, ASF+ASL+ASF=ASF, wood elf enchanted arrows are one unit per army, and so on.
To Malagor's point, you guys ruled on 2/3 of those in a different way than my group would have. :p

SteveW
12-10-2014, 21:05
To Malagor's point, you guys ruled on 2/3 of those in a different way than my group would have. :p
And if we were playing your group i'd just want to know that before the game started. All rules are playable as long as they are consistent.

MasterSplinter
12-10-2014, 21:11
Except a community FAQ will never be offical and just like every thing else, this community cannot agree on anything.
GW are the only ones that can release a FAQ that will put a end to all arguments, no one else.
Mean let's say we do a FAQ and rule that PF allows second rank to get the extra attack and I face a LM player who uses this FAQ, I can easily say "sorry, GW didn't release this FAQ so it doesn't apply" and you know what, I would be in the right.
House-rules is just fine naturally but a community FAQ will be pointless since it can be shot down in 1 second by your opponent and your opponent will be right to do so.

1. Thats the reason why i intended it to be something like an online FAQ and to be a poll so its democratic. (it will also help to analyse Rules Question which are really on the edge)

2. You are right about that. On the other hand all WH players agree to bow down to a ruleset. Once in the late seventies (or whenever the first ideas for warhammer as a tt game developed) some guys inhabiting the cellar of their moms houses, came to the agreement that it would be better for their miniatures to fight it out by a ruleset of dice and stats instead of clashing their stuff together untill it broke.
So it shouldnīt be impossible to implement a FAQ made on a big fanbase, presumably the most international and most united (i had to laugh myself when writing united) conglomeration of WH players in the world. If you use it, of course thats up to you. But donīt you think it would be nice to have a FAQ (even though itīs unofficial) where both players can agree on, prior to the game and one player says "Why not lets use warseers fanmade FAQ, its democratic, up to date and deals with all the questions that might occure in our next game instead of ruling that out by who can throw the maniest dice the hardest against the forehead of his opponent?"
The other player can then say "Sure, that sounds like a good idea" or he can grab his sack with his newly bought metal dice, because GWs next FAQ is stuck somwhere in the warp (or the guys of GW are back in the cellars of their moms houses clashing their finely casted finecast miniatures together).
All i want to basically say is: It could be an enrichment to the gaming experience.

P.S.: In the german tournament scene there is actually a whole new army composition implemented which is excepted overall. So somehow it can work.

MOMUS
12-10-2014, 21:22
Community FAQ? Like the ETC FAQ? The one that is created with all the attending countries viewpoints/opinions?

Or like the UK independent FAQ created by Mo Ashraf?

MasterSplinter
12-10-2014, 21:29
To Malagor's point, you guys ruled on 2/3 of those in a different way than my group would have. :p
Let me guess: PF -> Front rank only, ASF+ASL+ASF -> Initiative, enchanted arrows for EVERYBODY!!!^^


Community FAQ? Like the ETC FAQ? The one that is created with all the attending countries viewpoints/opinions?

Or like the UK independent FAQ created by Mo Ashraf?

TBH i donīt know any of them^^
Do you have any links? Or i will just google...

Lord Dan
12-10-2014, 21:39
Let me guess: PF -> Front rank only, ASF+ASL+ASF -> Initiative, enchanted arrows for EVERYBODY!!!^^

Sie in der Nähe sind. ;) I think Predatory Fighter should apply to all attacks, and ASF+ASL+ASF should result in ASF.

MasterSplinter
12-10-2014, 21:42
So, also 2/3 - three fractions, five different opinions^^

btw. i also think PF should apply on all attacks but i canīt proof it by rules. Still, it would be nice to have FAQ for that too, even when its not directly a rules question (i.e. rules that could be interpreted wrong).

EvanM
13-10-2014, 02:46
a community faq, with every single rules issue and debate ever posted there, where anyone can vote on the issue between simple and obvious changed to the rule or agreements on the way to play it.

for instance the frostheart buff stacking, itd be posted there and people could vote on the issue and you could see that maybe 60 percent of people think one thing, the other 40 percent disagree. Thats all you need. then people can choose to go onto that cite and instead of simply rolling a 4+ dice to settle debates you could let the popular opinion decide.

MOMUS
13-10-2014, 02:59
TBH i donīt know any of them^^
Do you have any links? Or i will just google...


You don't know the ETC? :confused:

Mo Ashraf runs the UK independant FAQ, many tournaments use is FAQ pack or base theirs on his template.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/88222296/2014/House%20Rules%20and%20FAQ%20Document%20v2.2.pdf

SteveW
13-10-2014, 03:29
You don't know the ETC? :confused:


I wish non of us did.

Don Zeko
13-10-2014, 05:01
You don't know the ETC? :confused:

Mo Ashraf runs the UK independant FAQ, many tournaments use is FAQ pack or base theirs on his template.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/88222296/2014/House%20Rules%20and%20FAQ%20Document%20v2.2.pdf

Yep. Tournament FAQs or gaming group FAQ's are the only feasible way to do it. Ask some of the USA Master's guys how easy it was to arrive at an event FAQ, and you'll see how difficult a true global FAQ would be to write.

What really grinds my gears is that at this point, if GW went to the ETC guys or the US Master's guys and asked them to write up a army-specific and general FAQ's pro bono, I'm sure they could get new FAQ's, made by the community, for free that they could then put up on the website and call official. The content might be different than if GW did it themselves, but if they really cared about the outcome of these questions they'd have released an FAQ in the past year. They can't be too dumb to realize that this is a problem for a lot of players, so what's stopping them?

MasterSplinter
13-10-2014, 07:22
You don't know the ETC? :confused:

Mo Ashraf runs the UK independant FAQ, many tournaments use is FAQ pack or base theirs on his template.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/88222296/2014/House%20Rules%20and%20FAQ%20Document%20v2.2.pdf

I know what it is, i didnīt know of an FAQ :)

I will have a read through this, thanks for the link.

MOMUS
13-10-2014, 10:31
I wish non of us did.

why?


I know what it is, i didnīt know of an FAQ :)

I will have a read through this, thanks for the link.

They have more than just a FAQ, find it all here: http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=125758

SteveW
13-10-2014, 10:54
why?



They represent everything that is non warhammer to me. Just a personal distaste for what they try to do to a game I love.

Hulkster
13-10-2014, 12:59
They represent everything that is non warhammer to me. Just a personal distaste for what they try to do to a game I love.

Huh? What do they do that is so bad?

Malagor
13-10-2014, 14:12
Q: Are Great Eagles, Phoenixes, Dragons and Griffons considered High Elves?A: No


Well now I know where a HE player at a recent tournament got the dumb idea that his phoenixes didn't count as high elves when it comes to hatred.

And this is a controversial decision that I strongly disagree with

Q: Does the Warshrine have effect on Chosen’s The Reward of Chaos?A: No.

Josfer
13-10-2014, 15:31
And this is a controversial decision that I strongly disagree with
Yes. That isn't a question and answer, that's a house rule...

Katastrophe
13-10-2014, 17:44
They can't be too dumb to realize that this is a problem for a lot of players, so what's stopping them?

You have to suspend the assumption that they care. Ultimately, I believe they don't. In fact, I think that they will always rely on their belief that they are not creating rules for tournament use and that small groups of players can just dice off or agree to how they like a rule to be played.

MOMUS
14-10-2014, 02:03
Well now I know where a HE player at a recent tournament got the dumb idea that his phoenixes didn't count as high elves when it comes to hatred.

But did you agree when in the old DE book: dark elves hated you, their mounts hated you, random monsters they enslaved hated you and the kitchen sink hated you?

Malagor
14-10-2014, 08:04
But did you agree when in the old DE book: dark elves hated you, their mounts hated you, random monsters they enslaved hated you and the kitchen sink hated you?
My time facing dark elves with their previous book was very limited so no idea what you are talking about and don't see the point with it in regard to this FAQ question which answer is something they pulled out of their asses.

Lord Dan
14-10-2014, 08:28
My time facing dark elves with their previous book was very limited so no idea what you are talking about and don't see the point with it in regard to this FAQ question which answer is something they pulled out of their asses.
His question is directly related to your complaint.

Under the old book any model considered a "Dark Elf" had hatred. With, I believe, the explicit and named exception of Harpies, all models within the Dark Elf book were considered Dark Elves - exactly what you're advocating in the High Elf book - meaning that models like Hydras had hatred. So he's asking if you agree that Hydras should have been considered Dark Elves and subsequently have Hatred and, if not not, why you feel differently about the DE and HE books.

Malagor
14-10-2014, 08:40
If it the army has a army rule that gives the whole army hatred then yes, every unit in the book has hatred unless stating otherwise.
And armybooks in 8e that has hatred(something) refers to either a special rule(like undead) or a army(like high elves, dwarfs, Orcs & goblins and so on) which refers to everything from that armybook.
It has been this way for a while so I cannot understand how they can think that things like Phoenixes are somehow excluded from their hatred.

Katastrophe
14-10-2014, 15:49
Phoenixes are not High Elves even with them being part of the HE army. I am not sure why this would even be a point of debate under any interpretation of the rules.

EvanM
14-10-2014, 16:12
Phoenixes are not High Elves even with them being part of the HE army. I am not sure why this would even be a point of debate under any interpretation of the rules.
im pretty sure most dark elf players hate phoenixes... hahah *trollface

Rotgut
14-10-2014, 16:27
"Unless otherwise noted, the effects of different special rules are cumulative."

That means that the EFFECTS (the ASL AND the -1 S) of being affected twice by the Aura are not cumulative.

Malagor
14-10-2014, 16:33
Phoenixes are not High Elves even with them being part of the HE army. I am not sure why this would even be a point of debate under any interpretation of the rules.
Except the hatred rule refers to units from the armybook High Elves which the phoenix is in.
We got several examples, for example Dwarfs, they got Hatred(Orcs & Goblin) and Hatred(Skaven) and this means any unit taken from armybook Orcs & Goblins and Skaven.
This same pattern has been in other armybooks in 8e. High Elves and their Shadow Warriors has Hatred(Dark Elves), that means everything from the Dark Elves book including the Hydras, the kraken thing and their other monsters.

SteveW
14-10-2014, 16:44
Even the Hydra had eternal hatred. It's what made them so effective.

EvanM
14-10-2014, 16:48
If you hate (warriors of chaos) that implies you hate the whole army not just the warriors. I agree

Tae
14-10-2014, 17:58
Phoenixes are not High Elves even with them being part of the HE army. I am not sure why this would even be a point of debate under any interpretation of the rules.

They are part of the HE book and therefore subject to the Hatred (High Elves) special rule. This is how hatred works when referencing army books.

Unless you'd care to explain which units Snagla Grobspit hates with his Hatred (Empire) rule?

Lord Dan
14-10-2014, 18:11
Unless you'd care to explain which units Snagla Grobspit hates with his Hatred (Empire) rule?

Easy. Free Company and Mortars only.

EvanM
14-10-2014, 18:23
Haha free company and mortars....

Josfer
14-10-2014, 22:34
"Unless otherwise noted, the effects of different special rules are cumulative."

That means that the EFFECTS (the ASL AND the -1 S) of being affected twice by the Aura are not cumulative.
..."different" special rules...

EvanM
15-10-2014, 00:11
..."different" special rules...\

blizzard aura is not different than blizzard aura, therefore it does not stack as it isnt "different".

Lord Dan
15-10-2014, 01:09
Again, Blizzard Aura affects the Frostheart. As part of that effect, units in base contact with it suffer from a set of effects of their own. There isn't any stacking involved, because no model has "Blizzard Aura" twice.

The way GW regulates special rules that belong to one model and affect another is through language like "...one or more...", as seen in the VC's Aura of Dark Majesty, Empire's Hurricanum, Wood Elf Arrow of Kurnous, etc. That language is notably absent from the Frostheart, meaning the affects of their special rule will stack. Now, in the event that two Frosthearts engage one unit it would mean their target would be at ASL, ASL, and -2S. We know that multiple instances of ASL are ignored, so the unit would be at ASL and -2S.

EvanM
15-10-2014, 01:31
Again, Blizzard Aura affects the Frostheart. As part of that effect, units in base contact with it suffer from a set of effects of their own. There isn't any stacking involved, because no model has "Blizzard Aura" twice.

The way GW regulates special rules that belong to one model and affect another is through language like "...one or more...", as seen in the VC's Aura of Dark Majesty, Empire's Hurricanum, Wood Elf Arrow of Kurnous, etc. That language is notably absent from the Frostheart, meaning the affects of their special rule will stack. Now, in the event that two Frosthearts engage one unit it would mean their target would be at ASL, ASL, and -2S. We know that multiple instances of ASL are ignored, so the unit would be at ASL and -2S.

its a totally F'd up move to take two frosthearts ANYWAY, but if i ever did i would not make their ability stack. because no.

Lord Dan
15-10-2014, 01:49
its a totally F'd up move to take two frosthearts ANYWAY, but if i ever did i would not make their ability stack. because no.

...okay.

I guess we've reached an impasse, because I'm going to have a hard time arguing with "because no." :p

Katastrophe
15-10-2014, 01:57
Except the hatred rule refers to units from the armybook High Elves which the phoenix is in.
We got several examples, for example Dwarfs, they got Hatred(Orcs & Goblin) and Hatred(Skaven) and this means any unit taken from armybook Orcs & Goblins and Skaven.
This same pattern has been in other armybooks in 8e. High Elves and their Shadow Warriors has Hatred(Dark Elves), that means everything from the Dark Elves book including the Hydras, the kraken thing and their other monsters.

I haven't seen this interpretation nor any rule that states what you are stating. Can you point to an errata or GW ruling to that effect.

Katastrophe
15-10-2014, 02:08
Even the Hydra had eternal hatred. It's what made them so effective.


If I recall correctly the handlers had hatred, not the hydra

Lord Dan
15-10-2014, 02:15
I remember vividly that the Hydra had Hatred...

EvanM
15-10-2014, 02:23
...okay.

I guess we've reached an impasse, because I'm going to have a hard time arguing with "because no." :p

hahahaha i understand. I am just saying, i wouldnt do it. my gaming group wouldnt do it. personally theres some really F'd up stuff in warhammer (insert list of gripes here) but i am gonna be morally superior, even if i have to be technically wrong to do so.

its like how i'd never use death magic.

Malagor
15-10-2014, 05:53
I haven't seen this interpretation nor any rule that states what you are stating. Can you point to an errata or GW ruling to that effect.
Dwarf armybook

Katastrophe
15-10-2014, 13:48
I remember vividly that the Hydra had Hatred...
Maybe we're looking at different books since mine says handlers have hatred. But I could be a version off.

Katastrophe
15-10-2014, 13:55
Dwarf armybook
Just looked in the Dwarf book, the part you refer to is under the Ancestral Grudge special rule and looks to possibly expand the general rule on hatred., but I will not argue the possibility of nuance. I will ask this though, do goblins fear dryads, harpies or Eagles?

Lord Dan
15-10-2014, 14:43
Maybe we're looking at different books since mine says handlers have hatred. But I could be a version off.

Are you looking at the 7th edition book?

Katastrophe
15-10-2014, 15:31
Are you looking at the 7th edition book?

No clue. Unfortunately the cover doesn't have an edition number. Might be the prior book. I have 3 and I see what's got to be 4th and I have 8th. Didn't realize there might be 2 in between those.

Malagor
15-10-2014, 16:32
Just looked in the Dwarf book, the part you refer to is under the Ancestral Grudge special rule and looks to possibly expand the general rule on hatred., but I will not argue the possibility of nuance. I will ask this though, do goblins fear dryads, harpies or Eagles?
Yes, they are part of the elven books therefore smell funny.

Don Zeko
15-10-2014, 18:30
No clue. Unfortunately the cover doesn't have an edition number. Might be the prior book. I have 3 and I see what's got to be 4th and I have 8th. Didn't realize there might be 2 in between those.

How many attacks are on the Hydra's profile? if it isn't 7, then you're looking at a 6th Edition DE book.

Katastrophe
15-10-2014, 22:45
Yes, they are part of the elven books therefore smell funny.

No one I know plays it that way, ever. I see what you are saying but I'd definitely need a ruling from GW.

Katastrophe
15-10-2014, 22:47
How many attacks are on the Hydra's profile? if it isn't 7, then you're looking at a 6th Edition DE book.

Thanks, it is the 6th book, he has 5 attacks. Wonder where my other book went, damned goblins.

Rotgut
20-10-2014, 17:48
Again, Blizzard Aura affects the Frostheart. As part of that effect, units in base contact with it suffer from a set of effects of their own. There isn't any stacking involved, because no model has "Blizzard Aura" twice.

The way GW regulates special rules that belong to one model and affect another is through language like "...one or more...", as seen in the VC's Aura of Dark Majesty, Empire's Hurricanum, Wood Elf Arrow of Kurnous, etc. That language is notably absent from the Frostheart, meaning the affects of their special rule will stack. Now, in the event that two Frosthearts engage one unit it would mean their target would be at ASL, ASL, and -2S. We know that multiple instances of ASL are ignored, so the unit would be at ASL and -2S.

"Unless otherwise noted, the effects of different special rules are cumulative."
EFFECTS. It doesn't matter that the special rule is on more than one Phoenix, the effects are not cumulative.

Lord Dan
20-10-2014, 18:05
You might want to check you quote, there. ;)

And yeah, we're way past that.

Imperator64
22-10-2014, 01:33
You might want to check you quote, there. ;)

And yeah, we're way past that.
Are we? Its not been solved and agreed on. My view is that the rule refers to effects of special rules on models with those rules. So a model cannot have the effects of asl twice bevause asl is a special rule. But -1S is not a special rule so a unit may receive that penalty twice from two different (although identical) sources.