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GoodCarl
12-10-2014, 19:25
So with every new codex comes certain characters who get the chop, even if they have models (Al'rahem, Chenkov, Macharius et all) so my question is if a new codex comes out that doesn't supersede old characters but instead gives them the chop, are they still valid?
For example could my 6E Dark Angels still upgrade a scout sarge to Naaman, provided my opponent agrees?

Does this mean The Last Chancers, Doomrider, Macharius, Anghor Prok, Baron Sathonyx, Nuadhu and Captain Cortez could live again?

Lord Zarkov
12-10-2014, 19:31
Short answer is no, everything in a superseded codex is no longer valid - and old characters may no longer work properly with the updated rules.

However what you agree with your opponent is up to the two of you, if you want to agree to use old characters there's noting stopping you.

Menthak
12-10-2014, 20:48
Short answer is no, everything in a superseded codex is no longer valid - and old characters may no longer work properly with the updated rules.

However what you agree with your opponent is up to the two of you, if you want to agree to use old characters there's noting stopping you.

Zarkov has got it in one, they're from a pure rule perspective dead and buried, but I can't imagine an friendly opponent that would mind facing Anghor Prok or Macharius.

Althenian Armourlost
13-10-2014, 09:38
I'd let you play doomrider, but no others.

Lord Damocles
13-10-2014, 09:47
Short answer is no, everything in a superseded codex is no longer valid - and old characters may no longer work properly with the updated rules.

However what you agree with your opponent is up to the two of you, if you want to agree to use old characters there's noting stopping you.
What he said.

Although if you're going back as far as 3rd edition, you'll find that some (most?) characters really aren't what you'd expect them to be nowadays. Cortez is weaker (although cheaper) than the equivalent normal Captian would be under the current Marine Codex, for example.

A lot of characters can be represented passably using the generic profiles (Cortez is a Captain with Power Fist and (invisible) Storm Shield).

TheOldblood
13-10-2014, 12:11
With a literal creativity you can make a lot of the old special characters using generic options.

Others, such as the Baron could be remade pretty easily if your gaming group is willing to allow you to bend the rules.

Konovalev
13-10-2014, 13:10
I can't imagine an friendly opponent that would mind facing Macharius.

As I recall Macharius cost a pittance for the guarantee that you got first turn.

Theocracity
13-10-2014, 14:35
One of my friends spent some time building a Battlescribe list for Guard that included Forge World options and all of the currently-unavailable special characters (with some slight rules updates for 7th). Totally for homebrew games of course.

Necrontyr
13-10-2014, 15:18
As I recall Macharius cost a pittance for the guarantee that you got first turn.

173pts is not a pittance, especially in the IG... errr AM.

MrKeef
13-10-2014, 15:37
I wouldn't try it at a tournament as it's not really allowed unless it's in the newest codex, but for fun friendly games between friends go for it!

Menthak
13-10-2014, 16:37
173pts is not a pittance, especially in the IG... errr AM.

It is however an awkward number of points.

Konovalev
13-10-2014, 17:52
173pts is not a pittance, especially in the IG... errr AM.

Ah I misremember then, I thought he was in the range of 90-100.

Ironbone
13-10-2014, 19:42
Nope, he's from times when special characters directy require opponents aggrement to use them, and their pts costs sometimes were bit awkward (so diffrent than today, huh :D ?) . Some even have random profiles ( best was mr "Fabolous" Bile in (?)3rd ed dex who firstly randomly determine one of 3 profiles, each with diffrent randomly generated stats ).

Necrontyr
13-10-2014, 19:51
Nope, he's from times when special characters directy require opponents aggrement to use them, and their pts costs sometimes were bit awkward (so diffrent than today, huh :D ?) . Some even have random profiles ( best was mr "Fabolous" Bile in (?)3rd ed dex who firstly randomly determine one of 3 profiles, each with diffrent randomly generated stats ).

Exactly. Macharius was 2+D3 Weapon Skill and 1+D3 attacks too if I remember. Not a bad character overall though, could really use an update.

Commissar_42
13-10-2014, 20:49
Didnt he have a 3+ armour save too? I remember being impressed by that, back in the day. No idea why they skipped him in the recent codici when iirc gw are still selling his model

Ironbone
13-10-2014, 20:54
No, he had 4+ armour and 3+ inv from his helmet. In his times 4++ was concidered very good, and better inv saves were very rare.

Necrontyr
13-10-2014, 22:00
No, he had 4+ armour and 3+ inv from his helmet. In his times 4++ was concidered very good, and better inv saves were very rare.

Yupp. He also had a MC Power Sword, MC Bolt Pistol, and fancy cape. Everyone with 12" got to use his leadership of 10, he got +d3 attacks on the charge, and you went first automatically.

ehlijen
14-10-2014, 02:26
With a literal creativity

I don't like pointing at typos, but this one amuses and intrigues me. Is that an oxymoron or not?


On topic, there is another problem with many older SCs: a lot of them flat out ignore armour saves when, if they had been remade, they'd almost certainly be AP3 instead.

Konovalev
14-10-2014, 15:29
No idea why they skipped him in the recent codici when iirc gw are still selling his model

Being dead plays a large part in that I'm sure. I don't remember if it was in a codex, or a WD, but he is confirmed dead.

Charistoph
14-10-2014, 15:33
Being dead plays a large part in that I'm sure. I don't remember if it was in a codex, or a WD, but he is confirmed dead.

Eldrad's been dead, how long now?

druchii
14-10-2014, 15:34
Being dead plays a large part in that I'm sure. I don't remember if it was in a codex, or a WD, but he is confirmed dead.

Isn't he from a time, like 10,000 years prior to the existing timeline?

d

Lord Damocles
14-10-2014, 15:36
Plus Tycho.

Twice.

druchii
14-10-2014, 15:58
Plus Tycho.

Twice.

Didn't Eldrad die once too?

d

Lord Zarkov
14-10-2014, 18:28
Didn't Eldrad die once too?

d

Eldrad dies in about a years time from the current timeline point.

Tycho died on 3rd Armogeddon which is not that long ago.

Macharius died what, a couple of thousand years about?
Plus his archetype is sort of covered by Creed, which was probably a big factor in why he didn't make it into C:IG 3.5 and subsequent books.


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T10
15-10-2014, 07:26
I'd let you play doomrider, but no others.

201584

Who could possibly say no to the Doomrider?

-T10

Still Standing
15-10-2014, 11:23
Eldrad only mostly died.

=Angel=
15-10-2014, 11:47
Eldrad only mostly died.

He got better

Still Standing
15-10-2014, 11:48
Not yet he didn't. He got eaten by a Keeper of Secrets inside the Blackstone Fortress. He only mostly died though.

Just Tony
15-10-2014, 14:30
Yeah, I remember being elated over the fact that I actually got a named character in 3rd Ed. It was also cool that Cortez was hard as nails. Now, however, he's been pretty much written out simply because of a one-off game in which Dave Taylor got him captured by Dark Eldar. Sure, it's cool that we have Kantor, but I really miss being able to run Cortez. I wouldn't try to run him in the current ruleset, though. I'm a fairly steadfast stickler for the rules, and pulling in older things just makes a mess of the game. Unfortunately, my old characters are as dead as the Templars codex.

Still Standing
15-10-2014, 14:38
Cortez can be accurately represented by a Captain with the Shield Eternal (invisible) and Power Fist. His only memorable special rule was his 3+ invulnerable. My Marine army at the time had him as my General.

Theocracity
15-10-2014, 14:38
Macharius died what, a couple of thousand years about?


Lexicanum (for what it's worth) has his death at 400.M41. Sort of surprising to me that the whole crusade was only 600 years from 'current.'

Still Standing
15-10-2014, 14:40
Well didn't he only conquer 1,000 worlds? That's 0.1%-0.03% (depending on which numbers you read) of the size of the Imperium, so it's no wonder it was forgotten pretty quickly.

Theocracity
15-10-2014, 15:44
Well didn't he only conquer 1,000 worlds? That's 0.1%-0.03% (depending on which numbers you read) of the size of the Imperium, so it's no wonder it was forgotten pretty quickly.

It's not so much the size as the time scale. I'm of the opinion that cramming everything into M.41 doesn't give the setting room to breath, so I'm surprised that an event that felt like it belonged in a different 'era' is still in M.41.

Heck, there's a whole tank chassis out there named after Macharius. It seems strange to me in a culture partially defined by its glacial rate of change that the Mechanicum would approve a new tank variant and efficiently distribute it across the galaxy in such a (relatively) speedy fashion.

That's just my personal view though. I'll buy that a lot can happen in 600 years, so it's not out of the realm of possibility - it just doesn't sit quite right to me.

Still Standing
15-10-2014, 16:04
The 1970s were a different era for us, that's only 40 years ago! If we consider the entire length of the Imperium one coherent whole then 600 years is nothing. If we consider it a realistic organically grown empire, 600 years is a very long time. So much will be forgotten and half remembered in the 18 or so generations that it can justify almost anything.

Theocracity
15-10-2014, 16:18
The 1970s were a different era for us, that's only 40 years ago! If we consider the entire length of the Imperium one coherent whole then 600 years is nothing. If we consider it a realistic organically grown empire, 600 years is a very long time. So much will be forgotten and half remembered in the 18 or so generations that it can justify almost anything.

I know. But the galactic scale, vagaries of warp travel, cultural ossification and insane inefficiencies of the Imperium just doesn't jive with my impression of the amount of widespread social influence and development that the Macharian Crusade provoked.

Then again, the short time span and scope of the Crusade also doesn't jive with my impressions, so maybe I'm just weird like that.

Just Tony
15-10-2014, 16:49
Cortez can be accurately represented by a Captain with the Shield Eternal (invisible) and Power Fist. His only memorable special rule was his 3+ invulnerable. My Marine army at the time had him as my General.

I don't give two flying blue ****s how he could be "accurately represented" by using standard rules. I don't agree with your assessment. What's memorable is his stubbornness, his invulnerability, and the fact that he's a Crimson Fists captain. Personally I think he should have more than just some random wargear combo.

Still Standing
15-10-2014, 16:55
Touchy subject I see. Why does a Codex entry need a name to represent something? The whole point of the codex entry called "Space Marine Captain" (or whatever the exact name is) is to represent the 10,000ish Space Marine Captains in the galaxy. It's not like you can't EXACTLY replicate his wargear from the Codex...

Lord Damocles
15-10-2014, 17:23
I don't give two flying blue ****s how he could be "accurately represented" by using standard rules.
So you'd give him extra special rules beyond what he had previously (since they're basically covered by current generic rules/wargear) just because he's a named Crimson Fists Captain?

His ability to ignore his first failed morale test (bearing in mind improvements to ATSKNF, and the higher base Ld of a Captain nowadays) is all that would seperate him from Captain Generic Dude IV.

Just Tony
15-10-2014, 18:25
It's the principle of it all. I also am irked over things like Eltharion's character progression, removal, regression, and everything else tied to it. What I want are rules specifically for Captain Cortez. Period. If I want to run a generic captain, I'll just run a generic captain.

Still Standing
15-10-2014, 18:36
There are 10,000 Space Marine Captains in the galaxy all with their own unique stories, each of which is as heroic and epic as Cortez's. Cortez IS a generic Captain.

Just Tony
15-10-2014, 21:33
Cool, then they should eradicate ANY special characters on your premise.

No?

Then why am I out of line for wanting official rules explicity for him?

Still Standing
15-10-2014, 21:42
Take a crayon and write Cortez above the name above the Space Marine Captain entry in your book. Job done.

=Angel=
15-10-2014, 23:01
Then why am I out of line for wanting official rules explicity for him?

Because his schtick is completely achievable with the tools you are given ( hard to kill )

Because he was a skub character never expanded upon

Because he got an ugly model.

Lord Qui Rahn of the first crusade of X-Squadron, the Angels of Aremis and defenders of Kolob has more backstory than him, and has had two models at this stage. He's my homebrew chapter acting commander in chief and he uses the captain rules.



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Just Tony
15-10-2014, 23:36
...


Lord...


I get the whole concept of "Build to match", I just disagree with it. If I run a generic commander, I run one. Plain as that. If I want to run a historical character and play as THAT character, then "Build to match" isn't good enough. It's like that DCU online RPG. I couldn't play as Nightwing, but I could build up a character with similar traits. It's not the same. At all.

Still Standing
16-10-2014, 06:35
And that, gentlemen, is what is known as "lack of imagination".

TheOldblood
16-10-2014, 07:57
And that, gentlemen, is what is known as "lack of imagination".

Yes, hate to wail on the guy, but his argument is completely baffling and uncreative. Plus the model was completely awful!

=Angel=
16-10-2014, 08:30
...It's like that DCU online RPG. I couldn't play as Nightwing, but I could build up a character with similar traits. It's not the same. At all.
Apples and blorgfruits.
In DCU online, everyone online plays simultaneously. In a 40k online, you wouldn't be allowed call your Captain Cortez either, because both of the other Cortez fans might be online at the same time and THEN where would we be. Similarly when 2 Ultramarines players show up and ally, they cant have two Marneus Calgars, one has to be denoted to Captain M. Fistycuffius.
None of your heroes will ever enter officially enter DC canon but within the context of the game they are official because they are narratively consistent.

Unlike... (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/06/05)


...


Lord...

Angel.



I get the whole concept of "Build to match", I just disagree with it. If I run a generic commander, I run one. Plain as that. If I want to run a historical character and play as THAT character, then "Build to match" isn't good enough.

The thing is, if you run Abaddon, with his printed rules and official model, does that make your game more officially canon than me running Techmarine Maximus Shaft*, using a generic techmarine model and rules?
Unless you are in a white dwarf batrep that later gets massaged into fluff then no.
I can grab a squad of catachan infantry and run a 'Marbo Begins' killteam campaign where he starts off as a grunt whose squad is killed by orks and gets increasingly lethal in every game.
It's all as canon as anything you might do with a named Captain Cortez.



* Right, I was an innocent teen. I named my Techmarine 'Shaft' after John Shaft because I had painted him with dark skin, and Shaft is a cool name related to engines and mechanics and so on. Someone asked me his first name(which I hadn't yet chosen) right after I watched Gladiator. I answered Maximus Shaft (not thinking) and the other guy broke down laughing. Took me a minute to figure out why.

T10
16-10-2014, 20:41
I for one agree that build to match discontinued characters is unsatisfactory. I wouldn't want to build a new Vampire Counts Zacharias the Everliving special character. However: I would reuse the model as a generic Vampire Lord on a Zombie Dragon.

-T10

Just Tony
17-10-2014, 01:32
And that, gentlemen, is what is known as "lack of imagination".

I run generic built characters in every army I've ever played. I have my own named captains, Chaplains, AND Librarians that I run often. Wanting to run a specific character from the background is showing "lack of imagination"? Whatever, dude...


I for one agree that build to match discontinued characters is unsatisfactory. I wouldn't want to build a new Vampire Counts Zacharias the Everliving special character. However: I would reuse the model as a generic Vampire Lord on a Zombie Dragon.

-T10

This dude gets it.

druchii
17-10-2014, 04:16
I run generic built characters in every army I've ever played. I have my own named captains, Chaplains, AND Librarians that I run often. Wanting to run a specific character from the background is showing "lack of imagination"? Whatever, dude...



This dude gets it.

The big problem comes when people tell YOU you're playing the game wrong. I've always NOT used special characters because I like to use my own character written fluff. Does that make my game better or more enjoyable than yours? I'm a pretty big GW fanboy, but I can totally see where you'd be disappointed at losing special characters that don't have....special rules. I mean would people really be happy running Nemesor Zahndrek as a Necron overlord with...er..well nothing that he actually does that's cool? How about Mephiston as a standard BA librarian? No? I can feel your pain. Just the same as if every generic character disappeared and I HAD to use a pre-planned GW invented character. Imagine how many people would lose their minds if THAT happened?

d

Lord Damocles
17-10-2014, 07:39
Metphiston as a Librarian etc. Is a slightly different case, since Mephiston is significantly different to a standard Librarian. Corteaz was/is only ignoring one morale check away from being a generic Captain.
His big gimmick was that he had an invulnerable save - something which simply isn't unique any more.

=Angel=
17-10-2014, 07:53
I run generic built characters in every army I've ever played. I have my own named captains, Chaplains, AND Librarians that I run often. Wanting to run a specific character from the background is showing "lack of imagination"? Whatever, dude...



This dude gets it.


What makes Captain Cortez 'Captain Cortez'? Is it a specific set of skills that differentiate him from another captain of the crimson fists? A model? A statline with a nod from on high?

Since they now placed his singular special rule in a piece of wargear that in theory any captain could take, does that not let you represent his durability accurately enough?

Or are you perhaps arguing that his ability should be improved beyond that of a stormshield carrying captain, to differentiate them ruleswise?

Or does he need another new rule to remain special?

I think the word generic is pejorative, generic captain sounds like he's a chump. Captain should be fine, the statline of a captain is what most of the 'special character' captains have anyway.
Which leads me to the conclusion that there are no special characters, just special rules and wargear .

Bob Hunk
17-10-2014, 09:23
Yes, I'm sorry to say that I agree with the majority; Captain Cortez just isn't unique enough to warrant a special codex entry, especially when he can be closely replicated with available wargear. And I speak as a Son of Dorn with Crimson Fists sympathies. :) If Cortez had his own rules then where do you draw the line? There are plenty of other captains named in the fluff who are on the whole easy to replicate with existing rules. If Cortez got his own special rules, why not them? :)

Just Tony
17-10-2014, 17:50
So we've essentially reached the point in 40K where what was once special rules/unique is now standard/wargear? Sounds about right.

So yeah, I'll continue to lament to myself about the loss of my character, and continue to run Kantor and my generic characters that I've made over the years.

=Angel=
17-10-2014, 18:16
So we've essentially reached the point in 40K where what was once special rules/unique is now standard/wargear? Sounds about right.


That's been a continuous process. When rules work well they get used elsewhere.
Codex cityfight back in third ed has influenced the way buildings worked in 4th ed and every edition since.
Thousand son's slow and purposeful allowed them to move and fire bolters at 24 for 4 editions until they handed it out to every rapidfire weapon.

The iron halo was a superrare piece of wargear with its 4+ invulnerable, in the days we had an entry for the good captain Cortez.
Now every stormshield has a superior forcefield.
In essence, every captain got better and Cortez got left behind.

If you ever play me though, I'll totally let you use his old abilities or any new rules you've devised yourself.