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gorblud
12-10-2014, 23:27
A unit wishes to charge the front of a unit that is already in combat, they're attacked from the rear. There is not enough room for the charging unit to close the door.

A: none of the units can close the door, therefore the charge is failed.

B: the unit that is being charged closes the door and the unit that was already in the rear follows.

C: ?

SteveW
12-10-2014, 23:54
If the charging unit cannot close the door, the charged unit does. In this case they cannot because they are already in combat and neither can close the door so the charge fails.

I think.

Josfer
13-10-2014, 10:05
The unit in the rear follows the unit being charged.

The rules text for closing the door says about failing the charge:
"If no amount of finagling can allow the unit to avoid the obstacle, the charge fails."
Finagling in my interpretation allows A LOT of stuff to happen before you call it a fail.

gorblud
13-10-2014, 10:13
thanks for your replies. Since I have two different answers I would like some more opinions on this matter!

MOMUS
13-10-2014, 10:33
A few images would help :)

gorblud
13-10-2014, 11:44
201523 Something like this. The little red unit is in the rear of the big black unit. the big red unit wishes to charge the big black unit in the front but won't be able to close the door. The big black unis is supposed to have enough space to close the door but since he is already in combat, can he do it?

Lord Dan
13-10-2014, 12:07
As Josfer said, I think "finagling" in this case would cover the small amount of shuffling required on the part of either the charging unit or the combat underway in order to make things fit.

theunwantedbeing
13-10-2014, 13:00
201523 Something like this. The little red unit is in the rear of the big black unit. the big red unit wishes to charge the big black unit in the front but won't be able to close the door. The big black unis is supposed to have enough space to close the door but since he is already in combat, can he do it?

Failed charge.
The enemy unit would have to move out of contact to close the door, the rules don't allow for that.

That said, it does look like you might be able to clip the enemy unit and get corner contact which is a perfectly legal charge in that situation.
You should really attempt to combat reform when possible to increase the number of models in contact though.

Lord Dan
13-10-2014, 13:27
Failed charge.
The enemy unit would have to move out of contact to close the door, the rules don't allow for that.
Isn't there a diagram in the book where the enemy unit "slides" when it can't close the door, though? It looks like that could have happened while still maintaining the same number of models in base contact with the unit to its rear.

MOMUS
13-10-2014, 14:11
It's a failed charge. Unless the unit can hit the corner (corner to corner) and close the door and not hot the blocking unit with it's rear left side.

hardyworld
13-10-2014, 14:47
As Josfer said, I think "finagling" in this case would cover the small amount of shuffling required on the part of either the charging unit or the combat underway in order to make things fit.
I concur. The charging unit may not get as many models into base contact as they wanted to, but the 'finagling' allowed by the rules should allow the charge move to succeed.

This part of the rules is very open to interpretation and you aren't going to get a consensus amongst players as to when the "no amount of finagling can allow the unit to avoid the obstacle" point is reached. This is where The Most Important Rule (pg. 2) and The Spirit of the Game (pg. 3) must be used above everything else between the players. If they cannot agree, roll a die to decide who's interpretation will be followed and move the game along.

theunwantedbeing
13-10-2014, 18:27
Isn't there a diagram in the book where the enemy unit "slides" when it can't close the door, though? It looks like that could have happened while still maintaining the same number of models in base contact with the unit to its rear.

No.
Sliding only exists during combat reforms.

SteveW
13-10-2014, 21:46
201523 Something like this. The little red unit is in the rear of the big black unit. the big red unit wishes to charge the big black unit in the front but won't be able to close the door. The big black unis is supposed to have enough space to close the door but since he is already in combat, can he do it?

There are no rules allowing for you to drag a unit with you to "close the door". We play that as a failed charge, but with how GW writes rules it's not something I'd expect everyone to see that way.

Josfer
14-10-2014, 09:46
There are no rules allowing for you to drag a unit with you to "close the door".
That's why it's called "finagling"...

SteveW
14-10-2014, 10:25
That's why it's called "finagling"...
Yeah, when they add in terms like that anything is possible.

gorblud
14-10-2014, 10:33
So basically, no one knows for sure. Alright thank you guys!

Lord Dan
14-10-2014, 13:20
Yeah, when they add in terms like that anything is possible.

They might as well have written: "You can scoot the charging unit a smidgen in whatever direction is necessary to complete the charge, so long as it doesn't move more than a handful of inches either way."

dms505
14-10-2014, 13:31
I have played this both ways. On more than one occasion we just scooted the terrain piece to make sure they could at least line up a model or 2. In the spirit of the game, come to a consensus before you try and make the charge or roll off if you can't. If your opponent set up in that spot specifically because he assumed that you couldn't fit then you might have a hard time convincing him otherwise.

While it's not perfectly tactical I will sometimes tell my opponent what my plan is concerning something like this so that in case there are issues they can be dealt with before either player has to defend their rule interpretation. That's why it's good to come on here and read rules issues so you are aware when they might come up in a game and have knowledge of all sides of an argument.

Josfer
14-10-2014, 14:40
If your opponent set up in that spot specifically because he assumed that you couldn't fit then you might have a hard time convincing him otherwise.
While I agree with your overall statement, I want to remember, that if he wasn't charged in the back by the little red unit, he would have to close the door anyways. So "setting up assuming you couldn't fit" is somewhat far stretched.

Masque
15-10-2014, 09:28
While I agree with your overall statement, I want to remember, that if he wasn't charged in the back by the little red unit, he would have to close the door anyways. So "setting up assuming you couldn't fit" is somewhat far stretched.
Maybe he put the small black unit there specifically to block that charge.

gorblud
15-10-2014, 09:49
It was not intentionally blocked. I figured since there was enough room for the big black unit to close the door, and the small red unit to follow it, the charge was possible. Although since I couldn't find anything to back that up we played it as a failed charge.

Since the rules doesn't seem to be perfectly clear here we'll just have to agree on something and stick to it until faq or the new rulebook is out. I don't mind whichever way we agree on.

edit: I mean that our gaming group will have to agree on something, not the entire internet!

Josfer
15-10-2014, 12:39
Maybe he put the small black unit there specifically to block that charge.

Which charge are you refering to? The one of the small unit in the back or the one of the large one that needs finagling?