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View Full Version : VC & TK,Thoughts on what should keep,change,remove



Tarrell
16-10-2014, 06:01
Being a VC player the new Endtimes has changed so much.
After all that happened in Nagash End Times; Nagash Consuming and becoming the new God of the Dead for all TK, and pretty much destroying everything still standing in nehekhara. I cant see TK possible coming back as a full fledged faction.
So assuming GW decide to Can TK and go back to the 4th ed of "The Undead" Army book featuring remnants of nehekhara, what will go.
I would assume most of TK units like Chariots and ,, and (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-AU/Tomb-Kings-Ushabti-with-Great-Weapons) many TK hereos would go the way of Necrachs bloodline.
I would like to see some units remain, the War Machines, Like the skull catapult but modified to fit in with VC (final we can shoot back, take that).
While the Casket is awesome to overpower the necromancy we already have the mortis engine, so redundant.


Remove:
Varghulf, I hate this model especially as Vargheists are better.
Direwolves, well there cheap units but now we have so much calv for VC I think they have become obsolete as we have BloodKnights, Black Kinghts & Hex Wraiths

Blend some units:
Tomb Scarabs + Bat swarms = Undead Swarms
FellBats + Carrion (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-AU/Tomb-Kings-Ushabti-with-Great-Weapons)+ Direwolves = Undead Monstrous Beasts
Varghulf + Bone Giant + Tomb Scorpion = Undead Constructs
Blackcoach + Necrosphinx/Warsphinx = Giant Construct
Ushabti (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-AU/Tomb-Kings-Ushabti-with-Great-Weapons) = morghast's & better

Keep
Combine the skeletons into a single unit, while spears/hand weapons/ bows sounds good, to keep with undead theme remove the bows.
Blood Knights, because w7 s7 a2 (possible A3 with the combine horse stats) frenzie +1 a = Over kill awesomeness.
Ghouls because classic.

Wesser
16-10-2014, 06:54
Meh im still not convinced that end times wont just go storm of chaos on US.

I Can picture Karl Franz waking up drenched in sweat: "thats it. No more pizza just before bed time"

Hulkster
16-10-2014, 07:21
Well some of those ideas are very extreme

VarGhulf. I agree
Dire Wolves No as they are a staple of the fluff and provide fast chaff

The Swarms could be combined, though I am sure the Bat Swarm can fly

Fell Bats and Carrion maybe, but what have dire wolves got to do about it

The Tomb Scorpion is much different from the bone giant (which doesnt exist anymore BTW) and a varghulf is a powered up varghiest. These cannot be combined

Black coach and Sphinx. Are you crazy. Not even sound same. Utterly different and could not be combined

Chariots are classic as well

Honestly this would not work. Do you play as TK or VC?

Spiney Norman
16-10-2014, 07:58
It will be interesting to see how they handle it, in the past GW has shown a preference for allowing us to continue to use discontinued models in some form, (although not always in the we might want to I guess).

I very much doubt they will flat out remove a unit entry that currently has a plastic kit, so I expect skeleton chariots will stay in.

Interestingly enough the undead legion list isn't that much bigger than some current army lists so I don't think that much streamlining will be needed, consider the following comparison to Orcs and goblins (note I have combined entries in the Undead Legion list for units that are just copies of each other from the other list such as skeleton warriors and grave/tomb guard)

Special characters: undead Legion - 8, O&G - 8
Generic Lords: Undead Legion - 5, O&G - 9
Generic Heroes: Undead Legion - 9, O&G - 9
Core units: UL - 7, O&G - 7 (9 if you count Bigguns separately)
Special Units: UL - 16, O&G - 10
Rare Units: UL - 12, O&G - 8

Interestingly the combined UL list only has a broader selection of units when it comes to the special/rare bracket and actually has significantly fewer choices for generic lords while carrying around the same number of hero types and named SCs.

theJ
16-10-2014, 11:03
Honestly... I'm still not quite sure the Undead are gonna get merged after all...
The key issue here is theme:
Vampire Counts are themed around vampires(duh) - in an army themed after anything other than vampires, a lot of their fancier units would need to go - such as the Blood Knights, the Vargheists, and the Coven Throne.
Tomb Kings are themed around... traditionally egypt, nowadays golem-like stone constructs - neither of which would fit well into armies themed any other way.
A "traditional" Undead army is themed around death and decay - they can fit neatly into either of the above with minimal trouble.
The "Undead Legions"... so far seem to be themed around giant bone constructs - note that these are very distinct from TK constructs, and would not mesh well together.

Any attempt at re-combining the living dead would need to have a pretty damn good plan for how to make the above look and feel like a single, unified army... and I ain't gonna lie - I don't have high hopes for its success.

Snake1311
16-10-2014, 11:13
By the end of the End Times storyline, presumably Nagash will be somewhat defeated - which could give plenty of reasons to continue VC and TK as they are.

There is really no good reason to merge the two on an ongoing basis.

Voss
16-10-2014, 16:20
There is really no good reason to merge the two on an ongoing basis.

Except for the massive overlap of themes, units and model kits, and relatively poor sales of same. Going back to the status quo for Fantasy (which is bad) after plying people with ridiculously overpriced books would be an insane and terrible decision.

Bob Arctor
16-10-2014, 18:47
I'm expecting End Times to be another Storm of Magic or Triumph & Treachery when its all done, i.e. an alternative way to play the game. Once the next edition is out they'll probably carry on the army book cycle anew, hoping that the shot in the arm given to fantasy sales by End times is retained into 9th ed.

The other possibility is they go down the route of having 4/5 core army books with supplements, so we could have a combined Undead book with supplements for TK and VC so they can retain their themes. I wouldn't be against this, but I still think the former is more likely.

I'm with Hulkster that I can't take most of the OP's specific suggestions seriously.

SuperHappyTime
16-10-2014, 21:00
Haven't had the chance to check the rulebook since I read it on 1d4chan, but as long as you don't take most of the named characters, you basically play TKs as an Undead Legion with only TK models to get rid of a number of things and suddenly TKs are easier to play.

EDIT: Yes it does, but it extends to most TK named characters. However, you get rid of the pesky Hierophant rule, repeated crumbling when your Hierophant dies on Turn 1 (because End Times), and access to the new units. TKs got an update and upgrade.

Tarrell
17-10-2014, 00:48
This was just fluff ideas.

I love the Black coach and Sphinx if they could keep them I would actually be quite happy, thought the Black coach is in need of a new model.
I dont know how you keep the chariots, having never played TK my only chariot experience is from my old High elves. Plays a similar role to the black coach (less the terror, ward save and random magic infused upgrades).

Direwolves are a staple, but I dont even waste points on them anymore, rather add more points towards bulking my grave guard or other hitting units as they tend to get in the way more than anything (in my small experience). Also while the wolves look ok, they are way to large, dire lions.

My other point is dont we have enough cav/flyers for undead now, I mean for a army with the theme of "Shambling horde". We have 4 Flying units (Fellbats, batswarms, terrorghiest, Vargheists), 4 cav units (Bloodknights, black nights, Direwolves, hexwraiths) and thats just VC. How many other armys can boast that many fast moving units?

Like Voss said after everything that has happened in between the VC and TK how could they go back? Also why would GW bother, I cant imagine TK were a money earner, without the Undead Legion changes, TK are one of the hardest to play glass cannon army in fantasy. Not saying people don't like them because there are those that do enjoy TK.

I see the undead just being made into the single faction, take space marines for example, same models (excluding the option extras to special chapters) but you can paint up to different chapters of your choosing.
So its plausible GW could do this for the undead, but include some special/ rare units and hero's to rep different Undead army themes, VC or TK

I know units like the tomb scorpion and varghulf are different, but they play a similar functional role, give you core units the extra edge in combat/ hunt heros/ take out warmachines/ or cause havoc behind enemy lines.
My point was say GW do combine the undead, we wouldnt need 2 different miniatures doing the same job, as the tomb scorpion is very outdated and the VarGhulf is unpopular especialy as the terrorgheist does a much better job. they could make a whole new range to represent either a VC or TK themed army. Or just use the terrorgheist instead.

Hulkster
17-10-2014, 07:33
This was just fluff ideas.

I love the Black coach and Sphinx if they could keep them I would actually be quite happy, thought the Black coach is in need of a new model.
I dont know how you keep the chariots, having never played TK my only chariot experience is from my old High elves. Plays a similar role to the black coach (less the terror, ward save and random magic infused upgrades).

Direwolves are a staple, but I dont even waste points on them anymore, rather add more points towards bulking my grave guard or other hitting units as they tend to get in the way more than anything (in my small experience). Also while the wolves look ok, they are way to large, dire lions.

My other point is dont we have enough cav/flyers for undead now, I mean for a army with the theme of "Shambling horde". We have 4 Flying units (Fellbats, batswarms, terrorghiest, Vargheists), 4 cav units (Bloodknights, black nights, Direwolves, hexwraiths) and thats just VC. How many other armys can boast that many fast moving units?

Like Voss said after everything that has happened in between the VC and TK how could they go back? Also why would GW bother, I cant imagine TK were a money earner, without the Undead Legion changes, TK are one of the hardest to play glass cannon army in fantasy. Not saying people don't like them because there are those that do enjoy TK.

I see the undead just being made into the single faction, take space marines for example, same models (excluding the option extras to special chapters) but you can paint up to different chapters of your choosing.
So its plausible GW could do this for the undead, but include some special/ rare units and hero's to rep different Undead army themes, VC or TK

I know units like the tomb scorpion and varghulf are different, but they play a similar functional role, give you core units the extra edge in combat/ hunt heros/ take out warmachines/ or cause havoc behind enemy lines.
My point was say GW do combine the undead, we wouldnt need 2 different miniatures doing the same job, as the tomb scorpion is very outdated and the VarGhulf is unpopular especialy as the terrorgheist does a much better job. they could make a whole new range to represent either a VC or TK themed army. Or just use the terrorgheist instead.

I agree they may want to combine the books, and I agree it would work. But...

Honestly....

Most of what you wrote above is a load of poop

I was baffeled at the Black Coach and Chariots being the same i your eyes, but tomb scopion and varghulf.

You are crazy

zimmo
17-10-2014, 10:02
Itt: we remove every marginal unit in vc and tk and only keep the super good ones

Oogie boogie boss
17-10-2014, 10:10
I feel like one of the few people who doesn't like the end times stuff and the melding of VC and TK. I always feel with these big, world-altering campaigns that it's better to keep the world in a constant limbo, and then run campaigns within that framework. I like VC and TK as separate armies, they both have different character, are different geographically and play in different ways. The combo because GW want to sell more models at high prices by bringing nagash back just feels clunky, unecessary and doomed to be retconned ala Storm of Chaos.

So to answer the OP, nothing needs removing or changing. Keep the two armies separate imo.

Tarrell
22-10-2014, 02:35
Closing this thread