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View Full Version : Empire MOD: Tell me if this is "Unfair"



EvanM
22-10-2014, 00:14
The 8th ed empire book is limited in what it lets you do, competitively and otherwise. I have some modification ideas that mostly revolve around pricing units/upgrades so that they adequately allow variation between different unit types instead of the obvious Unit X > Unit Y.

Heres the list, tell me if you think it is unfair. Things that would otherwise not be allowed are highlighted in red.

The total number of points "over" what it would be (if it was priced the way the 8th ed book prices it) is: 185 points. So that means if you were to field this at current 8th ed book prices, you'd have an army worth 3184 pts not 3000. Thats an increase of 6.1%.

80 points of that is actually from Free company that no one ever, ever, ever takes so if we replace those guys with some halberdiers or something, you can see that some simple price changes in a few areas make a lot of units more viable compared to the alternatives for an extremely minimal impact on the total point total.

Heres the list:



points:
2999



unit
number
equipment


General
1
Full plate armor, Enchanted shield, Talisman of Preservation, Sword of Anti-Heroes


Battle Wizard Lord
1
Lvl 4


Warrior Priest
1
Armor of Meotoric Iron, GW


Master Engineer
1



Witch Hunter
1
brace of pistols, warhorse


Captain
1
BSB, full plate armor, shield, dragonhelm


Battle Wizard
1
Lvl 2, Dispel scroll


Warrior Priest
1
barded warhorse, heavy armor, GW


Spearmen
60
shields, FC, detachments of swordsmen and handgunners, Standard of Discipline


Swordsmen
30
detachment


Handgunners
10



Crossbowmen
10



Free Company
40
FC, only 1 hand weapon


Huntsmen
10
Longbows


Inner Circle Knights
9
FC, razor banner


Cannon
1



Mortar
1



Pistoliers
5



Helblaster Volley Gun
1



Celestial Hurricanum
1



Demigryph Knights
4
Lances



----------------Here are the overall army list changes that are being displayed in this army list (you don't necessarily need to read this part):-----------------

The Empire
Army book revisions
EvanM
version 1.4

Army Special Rules:
Detachments:


Detachment range is 6”.
Detachments do not cause panic in their parent unit.
Supporting stand and shoot reaction with detachments is not at a -1 to hit.
Detachments to greatswords count as core points.

Lords:


General of the Empire: if is the general allows 1 unit of state troops to take a magic banner up to 50 pts.



Grand Master: can exchange warhorse for a demigryph with barding for +60 pts. If is the general, allows 1 Inner circle knights unit to be taken as core

Heroes:


Witch Hunter: Can take a warhorse for 12 pts (counts as fast cav)

Core:


Swordsmen: Cost changed to 6 pts per model
Spearmen: Shields granted for free.
Crossbowmen: cost changed to 8 pts per model
Handgunners: cost changed to 8 pts per model
Free company: cost changed to 4 pts per model, lose additional hand weapon. Can take additional hand weapon for +1 pts per model.
Knightly orders: Inner circle knights are no longer an upgrade, see special***.

Special:
*** Inner circle knights are their own unit type. There are no more Reiksguard knights. There is no limit on number of units per army. Starting stats are same as normal, 25 pts per model.


Greatswords: cost changed to 10 pts per model.
Demigryph Knights: Moved to rare**
Huntsmen: Cost increased to 10 pts per model. Gain BS4, and longbows. Can trade longbows for handguns or crossbows at +1 pts per model. Unit size is 5+.
Pistoliers: Has heavy armor. Cost changed to 15 pts each.
Outriders: Has heavy armor. Cost changed to 19 pts each.
Mortar: S3 instead of S2.
Flagellants: Cost reduced to 10 pts per model.

Rare:


Helstorm Rocket Battery: S4 Flaming attacks instead of S3.

EvanM
22-10-2014, 00:17
The witch hunter is mounted on a warhorse which is not normally allowed, the spearmen get a magic banner because of the general which is not normally allowed, and the huntsmen/free company have equipment thats not normally allowed.

other than that its just price changes and a few slot changes (but only negative slot changes, the demis moving to rare, and the Inner circle moving to special)

theJ
22-10-2014, 14:01
As a non-empire player, there's not much I can say regarding balance, however, a few things stand out:

*Spearmen: Shields granted for free.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the shield being optional is to allow older models(without shields) to remain legal and appropriate, yes? If so, removing the option is kindof a dick move. Correct the price, possibly even make the shield as cheap as half a point, but I do not agree with disallowing older models so long as other approaches are possible.

*Huntsmen: Cost increased to 10 pts per model. Gain BS4, and longbows. Can trade longbows for handguns or crossbows at +1 pts per model. Unit size is 5+.
Scrap the handgun idea. Doesn't fit with the semi-sneaky concept behind the unit. Crossbows would be nice, though.

*Grand Master: can exchange warhorse for a demigryph with barding for +60 pts. If is the general, allows 1 Inner circle knights unit to be taken as core
Love this. "Retinue" style units are something that's not done enough these days, and "moving them down a tier" could be a very elegant way of getting them back... Perhaps limit them size or pointswise to prevent "corestars", though...(max twice the cost of the GM? max 10% of the army?)

*Witch Hunter: Can take a warhorse for 12 pts (counts as fast cav)
Moving (back) outside what current models allow is something that needs doing, badly, in general... seriously, since when have conversion projects ever made us buy less stuff, anyway? Making him count as fast cav does fit with the fluff of the Witch Hunter, although not of the Warhorse... perhaps make it a standard horse instead?

EvanM
22-10-2014, 14:35
Spearmen.... okay heres whats wrong: shields costing 1 pt is WAY too much compared to simply having more bodies. So 50 guys with shields is not as good as 60 guys without them, even though they cost the same points. So shields need to be free, everyone wants shields on spearmen anyway. Also if they are s3 so compared to halberdiers they need to be a whole point cheaper than them WITH the shield to be comparable. I am certain that this fix is the best thing to do.

People want to be able to take a cav army, but I think that the way I set it up allows you to both take a cav army (with a grand master, so it requires a decently expensive unlocker unit) and also make all infantry armies seem more viable (inner circle knights outclass our core infantry). The rules state that a grand master gives a knight unit or a demigryph unit the ItP rule, which is weird because what you are gonna have the grandmaster on a horse riding beside demigryphs?? thats weird. So let him ride one.

Huntsmen need more flavor, I thought up the weapon swaps because i thought of medieval hunters using all kinds of weapons, maybe handguns are a bit much but I actually thought of giving huntsmen all Hochland long rifles.

Anyone think that outriders should be able to ALL swap their guns for hochland rifles or blunder busses? These weapons arent OP, tbh.


Witch Hunter on horseback was an idea of mine to allow you to run around with a pistolier unit, trying to execute shoot a wizard with his pistols while he has a good retinue to work with, also he would give his unit MR2 which makes them A LOT more survivable as a lot of armies will only have magic missiles to stop you with. Its not OP by any means, just another fun way to use him.



I made the army list to show that when you apply these changes it doesnt make the good stuff better, just make the bad stuff decent. Which is completely fair and makes the army more fun to play.

Lord Dan
22-10-2014, 15:28
Inner Circle knights are already core, although you can only ever have one unit. You're thinking of Reiksguard in special, which should never be allowed in core. :p

EvanM
22-10-2014, 15:41
I made the change (in this alternative army book composition) that inner circle kind of replace reiksguard as the special knights. Then, they can be taken 0-1 as core if you take a grandmaster.

So you need to look at both of these changes at the same time for it to make any sense at all. Obviously they were already core before but these changes reorganizes the list to make it more varied and allows more stuff to be useful.

So reread the total overall things and see what it looks like when you actually apply it to an army.

Personally, all I did was make bad units decently useful, and when you look at the resulting army lists you can make with this, it really isn't unfair at all.

Lord Dan
22-10-2014, 16:31
Ah, I missed the update at the end. You should change the original post to remove the black font around the intro to your changes, because that's why I missed it.

You know, it's funny, you're going to get a ton of flak for these changes - because anyone who does anything like this always does - but I actually like most of your suggestions. Let me go through point by point:




Detachment range is 6”.
Detachments do not cause panic in their parent unit.
Supporting stand and shoot reaction with detachments is not at a -1 to hit.
Detachments to greatswords count as core points.


I'm hesitant on points 1 and 4, because I feel 6" is way too far and because if Greatswords continue to grant stubborn to their detachments those points should come from special. Still points 2 and 3 are solid, and actually revert things back to 6th/7th edition rules.



General of the Empire: if is the general allows 1 unit of state troops to take a magic banner up to 50 pts.

Again, a 6th edition rule, and I have no problem with it. I wish he did something even more impressive, like granting a special rule similar to the Maneater rules, but this is fine.


Grand Master: can exchange warhorse for a demigryph with barding for +60 pts. If is the general, allows 1 Inner circle knights unit to be taken as core

Yes. Again, it was over-prudence at the beginning of 8th that prevented this from happening in the first place.


Witch Hunter: Can take a warhorse for 12 pts (counts as fast cav)

Something about this bothers me, and I'm not totally sure of why. My gut reaction is that players would abuse this by running the guy up to assassinate his target on turn one, however he can already do mostly the same thing with a Magic Carpet. I'll need to think about this some more.


[LIST]
Swordsmen: Cost changed to 6 pts per model
Spearmen: Shields granted for free.
Swordsmen also need to go back to I4. That change really bothered me, for some reason. I'd also like to see Heavy Armor on Halberdiers, with no option for a shield. This is clearly a better setup, so the points would need to reflect that, however all of the artwork for them show professional soldiers in heavier armor with no shields.


Crossbowmen: cost changed to 8 pts per model
Handgunners: cost changed to 8 pts per model
Free company: cost changed to 4 pts per model, lose additional hand weapon. Can take additional hand weapon for +1 pts per model.
Knightly orders: Inner circle knights are no longer an upgrade, see special***.[/QUOTE]
I really like these changes, though I'd like to see Free Company taken to 3 points by dropping them to WS2.


[LIST]
Greatswords: cost changed to 10 pts per model.
Demigryph Knights: Moved to rare**
Huntsmen: Cost increased to 10 pts per model. Gain BS4, and longbows. Can trade longbows for handguns or crossbows at +1 pts per model. Unit size is 5+.
Pistoliers: Has heavy armor. Cost changed to 15 pts each.
Outriders: Has heavy armor. Cost changed to 19 pts each.
Mortar: S3 instead of S2.
Flagellants: Cost reduced to 10 pts per model.

A couple of things:

1. Why move Demis to rare?
2. I like the stat changes to Huntsmen, though I think the Handgun and Crossbow options should be dropped. Move or Fire weapons aren't much use on a unit of scouts.
3. Flagellants still need their Martyrdom rule changed to something less...terrible. I'd recommend just using what they had in the 7th edition book.

Otherwise, good work.

EvanM
22-10-2014, 17:03
Sorry warseer sometimes changes the color of things so it's invisible.

Okay detachment range 6" is to make them at all usable. 8th is all about massive units, in order to set up flanking, you need more space. I think it's not unfair to add this, that's why I did.
Greatsword detachments are debatable. Very few people do it. I'm unsure on it.

The general is kind of crap right now, that's why this upgrade would be very helpful. Like I did in the army list, it let's you take razor banner, standard of discipline or something like that on the unit.

Witch hunter mounted is so that he can join pistoliers and give them magic res while they run around hunting a lone wizard with pistol shots. Its really not that amazing, it costs 150 pts to field this unit and they are very ineffective so it's just a fun thing to try.

Halberdiers and other state troops should have an (expensive) option to purchase heavy armor. Maybe I will add that.

Demis are too good, putting them in rare counters people claiming empire is too good already.

Huntsmen should be bs4 with longbows, the other we*pons were just random ideas that aren't that great so it doesn't matter, but that could be removed.

Flagellants suck so badly. I think it's debatable what to do, maybe the 7th ed unit is the solution as long as it's rare again.

EvanM
22-10-2014, 17:51
The realistic impact of these changes:

Swordsmen and Spearmen are viable alternatives to halberdiers for reasonable cost and reasonable efficiency. Currently halberdiers are the obvious choice for efficiency vs cost. My changes fix this.

Emperor’s finest and General allowing a magic make infantry more viable compared to other faction’s infantry (that often have elite options and magic banners).

Inner circle moved to special makes all cav armies viable but not as much of an obvious choice. You need to buy a grandmaster to allow a unit of inner circle in core. This consolidates the cavalry choices to make more logical sense.

Crossbowmen and handgunners are pretty awful compared to other options, they need to be cheaper. Militia are also awful for the cost, so allowing them to be 4 pts each but without the extra hand weapon makes them the cheapest infantry unit for being tarpits (which is what I imagine empire generals would use their militia units for).

Greatswords are very outclassed compared to elf infantry like white lions or executioners. They need to be cheaper to account for this. Currently they are very seldom used.

Huntsmen need to actually be useful. BS3 and bows amount to a useless unit. My changes allow them to be useful for a reasonable cost.

Pistoliers and Outriders look like they wear full plate or heavy armor. So they deserve this armor upgrade. Their costs are pretty insane compared to elf fast cav and they are special whereas elf fast cav is core. They need a cost decrease to be useful. Pistoliers also should be able to be used with Witch Hunter on horseback to run around trying to hunt wizards. Its expensive and probably inefficient but it is a fun thing to try out.

Mortars and flagellants are very situational and very overpriced. The 7th ed rules for these units are fair, so I reverted them back to those rules.

The helstorm is awful right now. S4 blasts with flaming offers some tiny bit more efficiency but it is still very very unreliable, so it will be worth the points some of the time as opposed to never.

Demigryph knights need to be rare, limited to 2 units per army is totally fair and they are also undercosted. My changes allow other special units to be viable and make demigryphs less of an auto include. They can be joined by a grandmaster now, so that is a fair trade for another fun build to try out, but definitely not overpowered as the unit competes with our very good rare choices.

ezz
22-10-2014, 18:52
I don't have the Empire book, but from what I know, these are some pretty good idea's. Just like you said, the changes you suggest make underpowered units decent.

EvanM
22-10-2014, 19:16
I don't have the Empire book, but from what I know, these are some pretty good idea's. Just like you said, the changes you suggest make underpowered units decent.

it makes underpowered, underused, units more viable without breaking the book in the other direction and does absolutely nothing to help the "netlist" build for empire, it actually limits it significantly so from an uncomped tourny standpoint this is actually a downgrade.

I have more additions i want to add, again to add more fluff mostly for fun, thats not really overpowered:

Outriders:
Has heavy armor.
Cost changed to 19 pts each.
**** Can all take Hochland long rifles for +10 points each or can all take grenade launching blunder busses for +10 pts each.

The Emperor’s Finest:
A single unit of state troops can be upgraded to the emperor’s finest.
They have WS4, I4, and heavy armor.
They can choose between Spear/Shield, Sword/Shield, or Halberds.
Can only be a parent unit.
They cost 8 pts per model.

Lord Dan
22-10-2014, 20:54
Actually I'd like to see a unit of Reiksguard on foot. Basically Inner Circle Knights without the horses and lances.

EvanM
22-10-2014, 21:01
Actually I'd like to see a unit of Reiksguard on foot. Basically Inner Circle Knights without the horses and lances.

Another good choice is obviously to allow greatswords to take other weapon options like sword and shield, or perhaps have S4 as well. That unit would be nice. I think it might be unfair for bretonnia if we get foot knights and they dont, but i do love the idea.

do you have opinions on outrider upgrades i just posted and the Emperor's Finest unit?

Lord Dan
22-10-2014, 21:26
Hey man, all of your font has been changing to black. With the traditional "Warseer Blue" layout we can't read it.

yabbadabba
22-10-2014, 21:49
Army Special Rules:
Detachments:

Detachment range is 6.
Detachments do not cause panic in their parent unit.
Supporting stand and shoot reaction with detachments is not at a -1 to hit.
Detachments to greatswords count as core points. OK, there is a bit missing here - do you get supporting attacking options for a melee based unit?


Lords:
General of the Empire: if is the general allows 1 unit of state troops to take a magic banner up to 50 pts. Yeah, why not. I'd be a bit more harsh and say that it allows one state troop unit AFTER the first to have a magic banner - that way if you want the banner, you have to field 2 core units.

Grand Master: can exchange warhorse for a demigryph with barding for +60 pts. If is the general, allows 1 Inner circle knights unit to be taken as core Happy with the demigryph, not sure about your whole ICK point.

Heroes:
Witch Hunter: Can take a warhorse for 12 pts (counts as fast cav) So it comes without Barding? Or will that be an option, possibly losing the Fast Cav status?

Swordsmen: Cost changed to 6 pts per model

Spearmen: Shields granted for free.

Crossbowmen: cost changed to 8 pts per model
Handgunners: cost changed to 8 pts per model I was contemplating the idea of dropping them, to 7 points, but they could only be used as detachments, or in units no bigger than 10 models. Only in Grand armies could you take whole units of these. But 8 points seems fair enough.

Free company: cost changed to 4 pts per model, lose additional hand weapon. Can take additional hand weapon for +1 pts per model. I'd keep the two hand weapons nd have a LA upgrade, or even "festooned with pistols" giving Free Company a single Stand and Fire charge reaction per game.

Special:
*** Inner circle knights are their own unit type. There are no more Reiksguard knights. There is no limit on number of units per army. Starting stats are same as normal, 25 pts per model. Why? - Edit: Just seen your amendment and all it does is to allow an all cavalry army to more effectively fill up it's Special slots - which it doesn't need to do - while removing a good effective unit.


Greatswords: cost changed to 10 pts per model. There's alot that need to be done with GS and I don't think a points reduction is going to make it.

Demigryph Knights: Moved to rare** I'd say only if when you take a GM on Demigryph, one unit can be taken as a core choice.

Huntsmen: Cost increased to 10 pts per model. Gain BS4, and longbows. Can trade longbows for handguns or crossbows at +1 pts per model. Unit size is 5+.

Pistolliers/Outriders: Has heavy armor. Why lose the Fast Cavalry status?

Mortar: S3 instead of S2. Yeah, it got nerfed too much. I'd take it S3 but drop the Armour Piercing.

Flagellants: Cost reduced to 10 pts per model. I'd rather they got Eternal Hatred and Never Tire - Flails count as Halberds after the first round. You should lose buckets of Flagellants, but it should come at a price.

Rare:
Helstorm Rocket Battery: S4 Flaming attacks instead of S3. This would definitely make it more of a challenge to ignore in that Rare section.

EvanM
22-10-2014, 22:07
I fixed the text, it was being weird before. Its a side effect of copy pasting from a text doc.

As for "whats missing" i didnt include rules that I did not change, I noted when i removed things and when I added things.

The point of the grandmaster is to allow a unit of ICK as core (whereas i removed the given unit as core) to make all cav lists viable but not to allow a unit with 1+ armor and S4 to make every other core choice seem useless. Its identical to if I was revising orcs and goblins and said big uns had to be special unless you included a character... you see my point. The whole change here is to balance core state troops to knights.

Witch hunter on horse is supposed to be so he can be fast cav and join pistoliers, barding could be an option so that he could join knights. (barding +4 pts would be fine).

I actually agree about your assessment of the handguns and crossbows. 7 pts would be fair if they could only be detachments or something, 8 pts is reasonably cheaper. Their current cost is rediculous. Maybe 7 pts each would be fair.

Free company are kind of useless, 2 hand weapons is kind of useless compared to other armaments unless you are an elite unit (without the ranks to use spears). So i figured the best thing for these guys would be to have them only have 1 hand weapon, be cheap, and be a tarpit. But having random number of pistol shots would be awesome too. Perhaps they should get 2d6 pistol shots instead to make them randomly fluffy?

Inner circle knights and demigryphs are two units that make EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE ARMY OBSOLETE. ICK in core means that its foolish to take any core BUT a big block of these guys. Reiksguard are a unit that many people despise because it makes no sense. The best solution is to make ICK a special unit with no restrictions at all, and have 1 unit be core if you take a grand master (assumedly he would be joining this unit). Demis in special is rediculous... move them to rare, perhaps if you mount a grandmaster on demigryph then you can take 1 unit as special, but never ever core demigryphs.

Greatswords either need to be S4 or be a LOT cheaper, I think cheaper is the better option for simple changes. I try to stick to simple price changes wherever possible as this is more reasonable to players than inventing new stat changes or special rules.

heavy armor on the fast cav doesnt make them lose fast cav status, thats a rule from 6th or 5th edition i believe and there is nothing in the 8th ed rulebook that says this. For example the outriders have to specifically lay out that you lose fast cav if you have barding. So heavy armor is an upgrade they deserve with no downsides.

S3 without AP is what the mortar should be, i have seen what S3 AP does (darkshards) so I know that this would be enough to be viable at its current cost.

Flagellants are so hard to pin down... going along with the theme of this book that "humans suck, they are the cruddier elves..." they should be simply cheaper and not better.
I would prefer them to be the 7th ed unit, or the 6th ed one. Essentially they never lose frenzy, they had t4, and a better end is nigh rule.


The helstorm is so horrible, but S4 and flaming is nice in that at least itd be able to DO something when it did hit. (which is like never, it could be S10 d6 wounds and not be OP because cannons would be better).

EvanM
22-10-2014, 22:13
Revised version with some of this stuff:

The Empire
Army book revisions
EvanM
version 1.5

Army Special Rules:
Detachments:


Detachment range is 6”.

Detachments do not cause panic in their parent unit.

Supporting stand and shoot reaction with detachments is not at a -1 to hit.

Lords:


General of the Empire: if is the general allows 1 unit of state troops to take a magic banner up to 50 pts.



Grand Master: can exchange warhorse for a demigryph with barding for +60 pts. If is the general. Allows 1 Inner circle knights unit to be taken as core if on warhorse, or allows 1 unit of demigryphs to be taken as special if mounted on a demigryph.

Heroes:


Witch Hunter: Can take a horse for 12 pts (counts as fast cav) or barded warhorse for +4 more points (not fast cav).

Core:


Swordsmen: Cost changed to 6 pts per model and get init 4 (they had it before)

Spearmen: Shields granted for free.

Crossbowmen: cost changed to 8 pts per model

Handgunners: cost changed to 8 pts per model

Free company: cost changed to 4 pts per model, lose additional hand weapon. Can take additional hand weapon for +1 pts per model.

Knightly orders: Inner circle knights are no longer an upgrade, see special***.

The Emperor’s Finest: A single unit of state troops can be upgraded to the emperor’s finest. They have WS4, I4, and heavy armor. They can choose between Spear/Shield, Sword/Shield, or Halberds. Can only be a parent unit.

Special:
*** Inner circle knights are their own unit type. There are no more Reiksguard knights. There is no limit on number of units per army. Starting stats are same as normal, 25 pts per model.


Greatswords: cost changed to 9 pts per model.

Demigryph Knights: Moved to rare**. Lances cost +5 pts per model, halberds are free.

Huntsmen: Cost increased to 10 pts per model. Gain BS4, and longbows. Unit size is 5+.

Pistoliers: Has heavy armor. Cost changed to 15 pts each. (still count as fast cav)

Outriders: Has heavy armor. Cost changed to 19 pts each. Can all take Hochland long rifles for +10 points each or can all take grenade launching blunder busses for +10 pts each. (still count as fast cav)

Mortar: S3 instead of S2. No armor piercing.

Flagellants: Go back to the 7th ed rules for them.

Rare:


Helstorm Rocket Battery: S4 Flaming attacks instead of S3.