PDA

View Full Version : New BRB FAQ and Lore of Undeath



Maetco
23-10-2014, 09:56
Exactly who are supposed to have access to this lore and how. The FAQ adds:

Page 162 – Spell Generation
At the end of the second paragraph, add:
“The Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard.”

The question has at least 4 sub-questions:

1. Whenever there is a conflict between BRB and AB we are supposed to use AB. For example Goblin shamans are restricted in the AB to only have access to Little Waagh. So there is a conflict between BRB (allowing them to use Undeath) and AB (only allowing to use Little Waagh) so AB should be used -> Goblin Shamans don't have access to Undeath. Is it meant to be like this?

2. Units who are treated as or considered to be Wizards but are not Wizards (eg. Horrors and Warlocks). Do they have access to Lore of Undeath and if yes how do they generate spells?

3. Many special characters have limitations or special rules about their Lore or Spell Generation. For example Be'lakor is restricted to use Lore of Shadow and he has Loremaster.

4. How do Grey Seers use Undeath? Normally they can choose to generate spells from Ruin and Plague in any combination. Does Undeath replace one of these two so Grey Seer can still generate spells from 2 lores in any combination or can s/he now only generate from Undeath or?

Spiney Norman
23-10-2014, 10:14
Exactly who are supposed to have access to this lore and how. The FAQ adds:

Page 162 – Spell Generation
At the end of the second paragraph, add:
“The Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard.”

The question has at least 4 sub-questions:

1. Whenever there is a conflict between BRB and AB we are supposed to use AB. For example Goblin shamans are restricted in the AB to only have access to Little Waagh. So there is a conflict between BRB (allowing them to use Undeath) and AB (only allowing to use Little Waagh) so AB should be used -> Goblin Shamans don't have access to Undeath. Is this meant to be like this?

Quite obviously they do have access to the lore of undeath, by your logic no wizard in the game other than those in the legion of undeath list would be able to use the lore of undeath because every army book clearly defines the lores its wizards can use, some (like goblins) just have a narrower selection than others.

"oh look, my wood elf army book says my spell weaver can only use he eight lores of battle magic, high magic or dark magic, I guess that conflicts with the new BRB FAQ that says she can use the lore of undeath as well and therefore I have to use what it says in the AB and ignore this new FAQ"


2. Units who are treated as or considered to be Wizards but are not Wizards (eg. Horrors and Warlocks). Do they have access to Lore of Undeath and if yes how do they generate spells?
I would say no, any caster that doesn't generate spells in the normal way and instead has a preset selection such as warlocks, sisters of the thorn etc can't practically take a different lore.


3. Many special characters have limitations or special rules about their Lore or Spell Generation. For example Be'lakor is restricted to use Lore of Shadow and he has Loremaster.

This is actually no different to question 1, every wizard in the game has a preset lore selection list which does not include the lore of undeath, the whole purpose of the FAQ is to override this.

Loremaster is a bit of a special case because it gives you all the spells of a certain lore, this could probably do with being addressed in an FAQ but I would say that if Bel'akor chose to use the lore of undeath his loremaster rule would not change to Loremaster: Undeath and he would just generate spells as normal for his wizard level. If he chose not to use the lore of shadows his loremaster: shadows rule would do nothing.


4. How do Grey Seers use Undeath? Normally they can choose to generate spells from Ruin and Plague in any combination. Does Undeath replace one of these two so Grey Seer can still generate spells from 2 lores in any combination or can s/he now only generate from Undeath or?
Again probably needs FAQing to make it official, but if you chose to take a grey seer with undeath I think it would become his only lore and he would only generates spells from undeath

You're somewhat missing the point that the lore of undeath is pretty terrible on anyone who isn't Nagash or Arkhan, I hardly think a grey seer is going to be trading out his spell selection for the ability to summon 15 skeleton archers or 3 Ushabti on to the field. Ironically Goblin wizards might be one of the few that could make a go of undeath, but only because their native lore is even worse.

furrie
23-10-2014, 11:48
I would say no, any caster that doesn't generate spells in the normal way and instead has a preset selection such as warlocks, sisters of the thorn etc can't practically take a different lore.
But pink horrors do generate there spells like normal wizards, but I would say that because pink horrors are a wizard they get the pick the lore undead instead of the lore of tzeentch

Maetco
23-10-2014, 16:17
Quite obviously they do have access to the lore of undeath, by your logic no wizard in the game other than those in the legion of undeath list would be able to use the lore of undeath because every army book clearly defines the lores its wizards can use, some (like goblins) just have a narrower selection than others.

Good point, it affects all Wizards not just the ones that have a fluff reason not being able to use any other lore. So in short you also feel that according to the rules aka RAW this problem exists. If only they had done what they should have (released a FAQ for all the ABs) none of these four (or more) questions even could have become a problem.


"oh look, my wood elf army book says my spell weaver can only use he eight lores of battle magic, high magic or dark magic, I guess that conflicts with the new BRB FAQ that says she can use the lore of undeath as well and therefore I have to use what it says in the AB and ignore this new FAQ"

I don't know if the purpose of this was to be funny or to **** me off. Either way, you weren't successful.


I would say no, any caster that doesn't generate spells in the normal way and instead has a preset selection such as warlocks, sisters of the thorn etc can't practically take a different lore.

This is actually no different to question 1, every wizard in the game has a preset lore selection list which does not include the lore of undeath, the whole purpose of the FAQ is to override this.

Loremaster is a bit of a special case because it gives you all the spells of a certain lore, this could probably do with being addressed in an FAQ but I would say that if Bel'akor chose to use the lore of undeath his loremaster rule would not change to Loremaster: Undeath and he would just generate spells as normal for his wizard level. If he chose not to use the lore of shadows his loremaster: shadows rule would do nothing.

The point actually was the Loremaster but like you pointed out he doesn't have Loremaster he has Loremaster (Lore of Shadows) so that is the answer right there. What is generating spells normally? Eg is Loremaster normally? Also Horrors do roll for the spell, they're just not a Wizard, they are treated as one.

Be'lakor was a bad example and only wrote it as it was the first that came to my mind and I was in a hurry when I wrote the OP. How about Kairos. He is a Wizard with two heads. Can both heads choose spells from Undeath? The point being that the heads are no longer individually Wizards the model is.


You're somewhat missing the point that the lore of undeath is pretty terrible on anyone who isn't Nagash or Arkhan...

Would you care to explain what is this statement based on? To the best of my knowledge you have no idea why I'm thinking these questions or have you been spying on me? The reason I started to wonder about the question was when I started to update the Battlescribe catalogues so they would be in accordance with the new FAQ and came across several situations where I didnt know if a unit/character is supposed to have access to the Lore of Undeath and if choosing it excludes other lores.

theunwantedbeing
23-10-2014, 17:07
1. Whenever there is a conflict between BRB and AB we are supposed to use AB. For example Goblin shamans are restricted in the AB to only have access to Little Waagh. So there is a conflict between BRB (allowing them to use Undeath) and AB (only allowing to use Little Waagh) so AB should be used -> Goblin Shamans don't have access to Undeath. Is it meant to be like this?
No, it's meant to allow all mages access to the Lore of Undeath.
Going off RAW, it doesn't though.


2. Units who are treated as or considered to be Wizards but are not Wizards (eg. Horrors and Warlocks). Do they have access to Lore of Undeath and if yes how do they generate spells?
Generate normally, so no lore of Undeath for them unless the generate spells like in question 4.


3. Many special characters have limitations or special rules about their Lore or Spell Generation. For example Be'lakor is restricted to use Lore of Shadow and he has Loremaster.
Generate normally, so no lore of Undeath for them unless they generate spells like in question 4.


4. How do Grey Seers use Undeath? Normally they can choose to generate spells from Ruin and Plague in any combination. Does Undeath replace one of these two so Grey Seer can still generate spells from 2 lores in any combination or can s/he now only generate from Undeath or?
Generate normally, or take spells from the Lore of Undeath.

The above is just me picking a simple solution to the issue.

hardyworld
23-10-2014, 20:54
Page 162 – Spell Generation
At the end of the second paragraph, add:
“The Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard.”
Anyone else think this is a bizarre place add this sentence to the rules? Wouldn't page 490 have made a lot more sense?

Daggon
24-10-2014, 23:36
So do you guys think the HE loremaster of hoeth get undeath signature spell I don't have either book in front of me atm can't remember the wording in the loremaster's entry

CariadocThorne
25-10-2014, 00:57
You're somewhat missing the point that the lore of undeath is pretty terrible on anyone who isn't Nagash or Arkhan, I hardly think a grey seer is going to be trading out his spell selection for the ability to summon 15 skeleton archers or 3 Ushabti on to the field. Ironically Goblin wizards might be one of the few that could make a go of undeath, but only because their native lore is even worse.
You might be surprised.

I've had a lot of fun running it on a treeman ancient. Despite the list being intended for fun rather than competition (durthru, 2x L4 treeman ancient, 2x treeman, 4x treekin, 60 dryads) it's held it's own against my friends competitive lists, largely thanks to the lore of undeath.

I'm sure their lack of familiarity with the lore and it's uses contributed, but nevertheless it was very effective.

Spiney Norman
25-10-2014, 01:39
So do you guys think the HE loremaster of hoeth get undeath signature spell I don't have either book in front of me atm can't remember the wording in the loremaster's entry

No, the loremaster of Hoeth never rolls for spells so he can't use the lore of undeath at all. This will be the case for all wizards who have a preset spell selection, like Doomfire warlocks, Lord Kroak etc

hardyworld
26-10-2014, 21:58
So do you guys think the HE loremaster of hoeth get undeath signature spell I don't have either book in front of me atm can't remember the wording in the loremaster's entry
No, the wording says he "knows the signature spell for each of the eight lores of Battle Magic from the Warhammer rulebook" (same as Wandering Deliberations Slann). The eight lores of Battle Magic is defined on pg. 490 of the BRB. While the FAQ adds the Lore of Undeath as an available lore to all wizards, I haven't seen it defined as a 'Lore of Battle Magic from the Warhammer rulebook' anywhere yet.

cptcosmic
27-10-2014, 13:51
No, the wording says he "knows the signature spell for each of the eight lores of Battle Magic from the Warhammer rulebook" (same as Wandering Deliberations Slann). The eight lores of Battle Magic is defined on pg. 490 of the BRB. While the FAQ adds the Lore of Undeath as an available lore to all wizards, I haven't seen it defined as a Lore of Battle Magic anywhere yet.
lore of undead is indeed "Battle Magic". the FAQ says "see Warhammer Battle Magic: Lore of Undeath" beside that no one actually can take lore of undead unless specifically stated. most wizards have an entry that defines they can choose lore xy or specific/all lores of battle magic. just check HE wizards, if I am not mistaken the written text says they can select high magic or any of the eight lores of battle magic. additionally AB trumps rulebook.

in short, most wizards actually wont be able to take lore of undead unless stated in the AB.

Dark Elf
27-10-2014, 15:06
Whilst it is true that AB trumps BRB I will still allow my opponents to use lore of Undeath with their wizards who generate spells in a regular way (pick a lore, then rolls for spells). The only exception I would make to this is HE loremaster. I think he should get the lore of undeath signature spell. Others, such as Doomfire warlocks shouldn't get it.
The rule is quite clear: The Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard. It is an exception to the existing rules. It's not supposed to be overridden because IT IS an override!

Also, it shouldn't come as a surprise that a 4 year old OnG book(or any other book for that matter) doesn't have lore of undeath listed in available lores for its wizards. And if you're that guy who needs everything to be written for you, don't worry I'm quite sure that incoming erratas will write it for you.

cptcosmic
27-10-2014, 15:46
Whilst it is true that AB trumps BRB I will still allow my opponents to use lore of Undeath with their wizards who generate spells in a regular way (pick a lore, then rolls for spells).
The rule is quite clear: The Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard. It is an exception to the existing rules. It's not supposed to be overridden because IT IS an override!

Also, it shouldn't come as a surprise that a 4 year old OnG book(or any other book for that matter) doesn't have lore of undeath listed in available lores for its wizards. And if you're that guy who needs everything to be written for you, don't worry I'm quite sure that incoming erratas will write it for you.

you can't eat your cake and have it too. most wizards with preselected lores dont have access but for everyone else either any wizard have access or none. when Loremaster of Hoeth rules were written only eight battle magic lores existed just like the OnG book has no access to lore of undead because it was written years ago. lore of undead is another lore of battle magic, this is even stated in the FAQ and if some guy arguments the loremaster of hoeth does not have access to lore of undead signature spell because it is not written in the BRB then I will simply argue his wizards have no access to lore of undead at all because it is written like that in the AB.

Dark Elf
27-10-2014, 15:58
I added the loremaster exception, I guess you didn't see it cause you quoted an older version of my message. I totally agree he should use lore of undeath signature spell.

CariadocThorne
27-10-2014, 16:09
Where does it say lore of undeath is battle magic?

Dark Elf
27-10-2014, 16:11
Where does it say lore of undeath is battle magic?

It says here (http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer/WARHAMMER_RULEBOOKv1.9.pdf)

hardyworld
27-10-2014, 19:19
It says here (http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer/WARHAMMER_RULEBOOKv1.9.pdf)
Could point out where? All I see is "The Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard." and then it gives two sources for the lore itself. Where is it defined as a 'lore of Battle Magic from the Warhammer Rulebook'?

Dark Elf
27-10-2014, 23:54
Could point out where? All I see is "The Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard." and then it gives two sources for the lore itself. Where is it defined as a 'lore of Battle Magic from the Warhammer Rulebook'?


Right, so first up.
1) If it is sourced in the Battle magic, what else could it be? Charge rule? Fast cavalry? Or battle magic lore?

2) Do you know of any other type of magic lores listed completely within the pages of BRB other than battle magic lores? If the answer no, with what could you possibly confuse it with?

RasputinII
28-10-2014, 00:29
Could point out where? All I see is "The Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard." and then it gives two sources for the lore itself. Where is it defined as a 'lore of Battle Magic from the Warhammer Rulebook'?

Page 162
– Spell Generation
At the end of the second paragraph, add:
“The Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard.”
(see Warhammer Battle Magic: Lore of Undeath or
Warhammer: Nagash, available in digital format
at www.games-workshop.com)

furrie
28-10-2014, 14:56
Page 162
– Spell Generation
At the end of the second paragraph, add:
“The Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard.”
(see Warhammer Battle Magic: Lore of Undeath or
Warhammer: Nagash, available in digital format
at www.games-workshop.com)

That doesn't make it a BRB Battle Magic. Warhammer Battle Magic is a product categorie, just like Warhammer armies.

hardyworld
28-10-2014, 15:12
Warhammer Battle Magic: Lore of Undeath Are you also advocating that since the products Warhammer Battle Magic: Lizardmen and Warhammer Battle Magic: High Elves exist and are lores theoretically available to a Wandering Deliberations Slann and a High Elves Loremaster of Hoeth respectively that their signature spells are also available to these mages and their special spell generation rules?

I think you are both extrapolating a product name into a rule; I think you should be aware that just because something is published, doesn't mean it's automatically errata'd to be included in the Warhammer rulebook. I would love for my Wandering Deliberations Slann to have Drain Magic and Soul Quench in addition to the other 8 spells, but it's not happening. The errata doesn't say anything about the Lore of Undeath being a 'lore of Battle Magic from the Warhammer Rulebook' (and, in fact, it specifically says differently).

Sexiest_hero
28-10-2014, 18:02
I think the fact that it is called a battle magic lore coupled with the fact it states it can be used by all wizards means it's like the 9th battle magic lore.At this point That's where i think the evidence leads.

CariadocThorne
28-10-2014, 18:56
Aren't all the cards called "battle magic: lore of x" or something similar?

Anyway, its all moot as the loremaster's rules specifically state that he knows the 8 signature spells from the battlemagic lores in the warhammer rulebook.

The lore of undeath is not one of the 8 in the rulebook.

The same applies to Teclis if he takes a spell from each, but he could choose to only take the spells from the lore of undeath.

ucsimplyme
28-10-2014, 19:56
To throw even another wrench into this discussion, assuming Goblins can take Lore of Undeath, consider how this interfaces with a Goblin Great Shaman on an Arachnarok with a Catchweb Spider Shrine.

The Catchweb Spider Shrine says that while the shaman is mounted on the Arachnarok, they gain Loremaster (Little Waaagh!). The implication of the Spider Shrine wording is that if the shaman is no longer mounted on the Arachnarok, then he loses the Loremaster ability. This suggests that the Shaman must generate spells normally (since there is the possibility of losing Loremaster (Little Waaagh!)), but while on the Arachnarok he gains the Loremaster (Little Waaagh!). Now, if that same shaman decides to take the Lore of Undeath, it follows that he generates spells normally (from Lore of Undeath), but, while mounted on the Arachnarok, he has Loremaster (Little Waaagh!).

Loremaster (*) reads: "A Wizard with the Loremaster special rule knows all the spells from his chosen lore - he does not need to roll randomly. The lore in question is normally given in brackets as part of the Loremaster special rule. For example, a model with Loremaster (Fire) would know all the spells from the Lore of Fire." Assuming the second and third sentences interpret the first, the "chosen lore" refers not to your lore selection but the lore represented by the (*).

It seems to follow that the Goblin shaman in question, standing on a Spider Shrine'd Arachnarok, would generate spells from Lore of Undeath and, while the Arachnarok is still alive, be able to still cast all spells from Little Waaagh!

Dark Elf
28-10-2014, 22:22
It seems to follow that the Goblin shaman in question, standing on a Spider Shrine'd Arachnarok, would generate spells from Lore of Undeath and, while the Arachnarok is still alive, be able to still cast all spells from Little Waaagh!

Interesting case but you and I wouldn't agree on the solution. A far better, simpler and legal (and IMO logical) solution is to, for now, house rule that Arachnok spider gives loremaster only for the chosen lore (so if gobbo great shaman takes lore of undeath and gets mounted on arachnok he gets a loremaster: lore of undeath).

I am 90% sure to you that either this will be the case, or it will be along the lines of if he takes arachnok upgrade he can either have a loremaster: little waaagh or just be a regular lvl 3-4 with lore of undeath.
But what I can absolutely guarantee to you is that, we will not be seeing a goblins shaman you described (loremaster:little waaagh + 3-4 spells from lore of undeath)

ucsimplyme
28-10-2014, 23:33
Interesting case but you and I wouldn't agree on the solution. A far better, simpler and legal (and IMO logical) solution is to, for now, house rule that Arachnok spider gives loremaster only for the chosen lore (so if gobbo great shaman takes lore of undeath and gets mounted on arachnok he gets a loremaster: lore of undeath).

I am 90% sure to you that either this will be the case, or it will be along the lines of if he takes arachnok upgrade he can either have a loremaster: little waaagh or just be a regular lvl 3-4 with lore of undeath.
But what I can absolutely guarantee to you is that, we will not be seeing a goblins shaman you described (loremaster:little waaagh + 3-4 spells from lore of undeath)

I guess it depends on how you understand Loremaster. If Loremaster is an extension (or more accurately, an expansion) of what you already know, then your reading would likely be correct. But if it is an ability/trait that can be granted, like Stubborn or Frenzy, and the effect of the ability is knowledge of all spells (as it seems to be described in the Special Rules chapter of the Rule book), then I think my suggestion is both logical and a plain reading of the interaction of abilities. This is certainly a RAI/RAW discussion at the end of the day that needs to be settled at the table.

Given that this combo costs 330 points of canon fodder to unlock (not counting the base cost of the shaman, his level upgrade, or his items), I am not too concerned about 500+ point goblin shaman generals running amuck.

furrie
29-10-2014, 09:06
I think the fact that it is called a battle magic lore coupled with the fact it states it can be used by all wizards means it's like the 9th battle magic lore.At this point That's where i think the evidence leads.
All lores have had a battle magic lore release, all the cards with spells are called battle magic. So the fact that its called battle magic lore means nothing. And that all wizards can take that lore doesn't automaticly mean its a brb lore, just that each wizard can use it. The way I see it the lore of undead is a lore from the expansion the end time: Nagash.

cptcosmic
29-10-2014, 11:18
Are you also advocating that since the products Warhammer Battle Magic: Lizardmen and Warhammer Battle Magic: High Elves exist and are lores theoretically available to a Wandering Deliberations Slann and a High Elves Loremaster of Hoeth respectively that their signature spells are also available to these mages and their special spell generation rules?

I think you are both extrapolating a product name into a rule; I think you should be aware that just because something is published, doesn't mean it's automatically errata'd to be included in the Warhammer rulebook. I would love for my Wandering Deliberations Slann to have Drain Magic and Soul Quench in addition to the other 8 spells, but it's not happening. The errata doesn't say anything about the Lore of Undeath being a 'lore of Battle Magic from the Warhammer Rulebook' (and, in fact, it specifically says differently).

none of the other lores are avaible to anyone unless noted somewhere. you get what is defined in your armyboo aka one of the battle magic lores out of the BRB and not from other AB.



Anyway, its all moot as the loremaster's rules specifically state that he knows the 8 signature spells from the battlemagic lores in the warhammer rulebook.

The lore of undeath is not one of the 8 in the rulebook.

The same applies to Teclis if he takes a spell from each, but he could choose to only take the spells from the lore of undeath.
in which case no wizard can take lore of undeath because the army book restricts you to take spells from the battlemagic lores in the BRB. the lore of the undeath is not one of those.

as already said, either all wizards get access or no wizard, no cherry picking just because you want it to be like that.

Spiney Norman
29-10-2014, 12:10
Interesting case but you and I wouldn't agree on the solution. A far better, simpler and legal (and IMO logical) solution is to, for now, house rule that Arachnok spider gives loremaster only for the chosen lore (so if gobbo great shaman takes lore of undeath and gets mounted on arachnok he gets a loremaster: lore of undeath).

I am 90% sure to you that either this will be the case, or it will be along the lines of if he takes arachnok upgrade he can either have a loremaster: little waaagh or just be a regular lvl 3-4 with lore of undeath.
But what I can absolutely guarantee to you is that, we will not be seeing a goblins shaman you described (loremaster:little waaagh + 3-4 spells from lore of undeath)

Absolutely not, the Loremaster rule only gives you all the spells for the lore stated, not any lore the wizard knows, so if the goblin shaman takes the lore of Undeath his loremaster (little Waaagh) rule does nothing.

They could do with clarifying how the loremaster rule actually works, does it work exclusively at the point of spell generation (in which cause losing the rule part way through the game would give you problems as you would need to generate spells normally part way through a game), or does it work continuously throughout the game (i.e. You always know all the spells of that lore for as long as you have the rule) which causes issues for abilities that cause you to forget spells like the rune of spell eating and miscast result 10-11 since having the loremaster rule would effectively make you instantly relearn any spell you forgot.

Regarding whether goblins can use the lore of undeath, of course they can, the errata that has been given is intentionally designed to override the lore choices for every wizard in the game. My wood elf spell singer's lore selection is "any of the eight Lores of battle magic found in the Warhammer rule book".

Since the lore of undeath is not in the warhammer rulebook, nor is it one of the eight by the letter of the rules you are using to deny the lore to the goblin Shamen you are also denying it to my elves.

ucsimplyme
29-10-2014, 15:01
Absolutely not, the Loremaster rule only gives you all the spells for the lore stated, not any lore the wizard knows, so if the goblin shaman takes the lore of Undeath his loremaster (little Waaagh) rule does nothing.

This is clearly not true. Take for example the Nehekharan Sphinx Terrain piece. If you pray to the Sphinx, you gain one of three abilities for the rest of the game, one of which is Loremaster (Death). The terrain rules state clearly that for non-wizards, gaining the Loremaster (Death) ability does nothing because "only Wizards can actually use spells!" [direct quote]. The implication here is that if you are a caster, and you gain Loremaster (Death), you gain the ability to cast all the spells from the Lore of Death as any type of caster. If this granted Loremaster ability only granted spells to those casters who were already Lore of Death, they wouldn't have suggested that all other Wizards gain a benefit from this ability. As per this piece of terrain in the main book, if you gain Loremaster in any Lore and are a wizard, you gain the ability to cast all spells from that Lore. Period.

Thus, a level 4 Lore of Death Goblin shaman on an Arachnarok with a Catchweb Spidershrine has 4 spells from Lore of Death and all spells from Little Waaagh!

dms505
30-10-2014, 14:46
This is clearly not true. Take for example the Nehekharan Sphinx Terrain piece. If you pray to the Sphinx, you gain one of three abilities for the rest of the game, one of which is Loremaster (Death). The terrain rules state clearly that for non-wizards, gaining the Loremaster (Death) ability does nothing because "only Wizards can actually use spells!" [direct quote]. The implication here is that if you are a caster, and you gain Loremaster (Death), you gain the ability to cast all the spells from the Lore of Death as any type of caster. If this granted Loremaster ability only granted spells to those casters who were already Lore of Death, they wouldn't have suggested that all other Wizards gain a benefit from this ability. As per this piece of terrain in the main book, if you gain Loremaster in any Lore and are a wizard, you gain the ability to cast all spells from that Lore. Period.

Thus, a level 4 Lore of Death Goblin shaman on an Arachnarok with a Catchweb Spidershrine has 4 spells from Lore of Death and all spells from Little Waaagh!


At first I thought, this can't be right. But then I looked into the Slann's abilities which state specifically that you cannot combine both the Loremaster High Magic and the signatures abilities. If it wasn't possible to have both a Loremaster ability and other spells is special situations, they would have no reason to deny that combination. Same with the Sphinx deal.

ucsimplyme
30-10-2014, 22:02
At first I thought, this can't be right. But then I looked into the Slann's abilities which state specifically that you cannot combine both the Loremaster High Magic and the signatures abilities. If it wasn't possible to have both a Loremaster ability and other spells is special situations, they would have no reason to deny that combination. Same with the Sphinx deal.

Agreed. Exactly. When you gain Loremaster, you gain access to all spells in that Lore; one doesn't have to actually have "chosen" that lore.

razzeldazle
30-10-2014, 22:18
You're somewhat missing the point that the lore of undeath is pretty terrible on anyone who isn't Nagash or Arkhan, I hardly think a grey seer is going to be trading out his spell selection for the ability to summon 15 skeleton archers or 3 Ushabti on to the field. Ironically Goblin wizards might be one of the few that could make a go of undeath, but only because their native lore is even worse.

I don't want to hijack the thread, I'm hoping GW clarifies how/if wizards such as Teclis and HE Loremasters are able to use Undeath (if ANY wizard can use it, there should be an option for them). But, you should probably try and use Undeath before you claim it as terrible, and if you had tried it you wouldn't be calling it terrible. Yeah, 10 skeletons aint much, but in my last game it gave my 2 canons a nice little shield from charges. Then I brought out 2 bat swarms that moved along with my knights and gave all their enemies ASL. Then I brought out a Cairn Wraith (this is all 1 turn), which locked down a unit of knights for several turns. Next magic phase I had enough Undeath counters to bring out 2 Spirit Hosts and some more skeletons to block enemy charges, The turn after that I tried for 2 Morghasts but rolled awful. By the next turn the game was won.

Ayin
31-10-2014, 00:16
GW's clear intention is to allow wizards from every race to take Undeath. Special Characters as well (see Balthasar Gelt).

As for having to appear in the Army Book, in the Nagash book it clearly states that "Unlike other spells, which can only be used by Wizards who list that spell lore in their special rules, any Wizard can choose to generate spells from the Lore of Undeath", with the second half of that being bolded. The inclusion of this in the main rulebook FAQ was to make sure that all players had access to this new rule, even if they didn't own the new Nagash book.

Of course, it's more fun to be intentionally hard-headed and try and argue that, when GW SAYS 'any wizard can use Lore Undeath' that the reality is 'basically no wizard can use this lore', because apparently many of us have nothing worth while to do with our time.



You know what else was fun for a few weeks? Arguing that when GW said that what followed "updates the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer. Just as the Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard. All armies use these rules for choosing an army" (in bold even) before changing the percentages for Lords and Heroes to 50%, that they didn't mean that, or for some reason despite saying that, it didn't apply.

OfTheThorn
31-10-2014, 02:11
Agreed. Exactly. When you gain Loremaster, you gain access to all spells in that Lore; one doesn't have to actually have "chosen" that lore.

You don't want to go down that route. This is what Lizardmen players were arguing re: the discipline "Focus of Mystery". Nowhere does it say 'instead of generating normal spells', like Wandering Deliberations does. And nowhere on the Slann's profile does it say they must choose High Magic, like other Loremasters' profiles all do.
If that's the way you play it, your opponents can give their slann High Magic Loremaster for 35 points, on top of their 'chosen lore'.

ucsimplyme
31-10-2014, 14:43
You don't want to go down that route. This is what Lizardmen players were arguing re: the discipline "Focus of Mystery". Nowhere does it say 'instead of generating normal spells', like Wandering Deliberations does. And nowhere on the Slann's profile does it say they must choose High Magic, like other Loremasters' profiles all do.
If that's the way you play it, your opponents can give their slann High Magic Loremaster for 35 points, on top of their 'chosen lore'.

Are you suggesting that the Sphinx terrain piece which grants lore master death doesn't benefit non-lore if death casters? By a plain reading of the rules, this is in fact how these abilities operate. You may think they are unbalanced or overpowered, but that is how they are written.

OfTheThorn
31-10-2014, 15:56
Are you suggesting that the Sphinx terrain piece which grants lore master death doesn't benefit non-lore if death casters? By a plain reading of the rules, this is in fact how these abilities operate. You may think they are unbalanced or overpowered, but that is how they are written.

No. I absolutely agree that the Sphinx has to work that way.

The problem is that, currently, playing it by RAW in that way, the only argument against Slann getting the full spell compliment of High Magic, plus their generated lore, then crumbles.
It is either-or. Either the "loremaster ability: lore x" functions without choosing lore X, or it doesn't.

ucsimplyme
31-10-2014, 18:03
No. I absolutely agree that the Sphinx has to work that way.

The problem is that, currently, playing it by RAW in that way, the only argument against Slann getting the full spell compliment of High Magic, plus their generated lore, then crumbles.
It is either-or. Either the "loremaster ability: lore x" functions without choosing lore X, or it doesn't.

Agreed. I think I would support a reading that allows a Slann to get Loremaster (High Magic) and have 4 spells from another Lore for those extra points.

Is it strong? Absolutely.
Are Lizardmen supposed to have a great mastery of magic? Absolutely.

Are Lizardmen a top tier army? Nope.
Does this make them more competitive? Maybe, they are still capped at 12 dice.

You can have one of these Disciplines per army and it is costing them points. It is certainly good but it won't break the game.

copesh
31-10-2014, 19:00
if the upgrade says gain Loremaster (High Magic) without any requirement to have chosen High Magic first - then yes. They would get All the High Magic spells plus their 4 from the chosen lore.
Most other Loremasters require you to select the lore first though. Like Teclis, it says he can either know all of High Magic or chose one spell from each of the 8.

furrie
01-11-2014, 12:42
if the upgrade says gain Loremaster (High Magic) without any requirement to have chosen High Magic first - then yes. They would get All the High Magic spells plus their 4 from the chosen lore.
Most other Loremasters require you to select the lore first though. Like Teclis, it says he can either know all of High Magic or chose one spell from each of the 8.
The loremaster rules states

A wizard with the loremaster special rule knows all the spells from his chosen lore So if you pick a different lore you don't get the benefit from the loremaster special rule

OfTheThorn
01-11-2014, 15:48
So if you pick a different lore you don't get the benefit from the loremaster special rule

That was the general consensus when the Lizardmen book came out. However, it also does mean that the Phinx piece of terrain (technically, by the same ruling) does nothing except for Death wizards. And no Loremaster: Undeath for goblins on their shrine.

Indeed the only way I can think of to get Loremaster of Undeath is to take it on Mazdamundi, who gets Loremaster of whatever his chosen lore is.

ucsimplyme
01-11-2014, 20:57
The loremaster rules states
So if you pick a different lore you don't get the benefit from the loremaster special rule

Try reading the entire ability rather than selective reading.

Loremaster (*) reads: "A Wizard with the Loremaster special rule knows all the spells from his chosen lore - he does not need to roll randomly. The lore in question is normally given in brackets as part of the Loremaster special rule. For example, a model with Loremaster (Fire) would know all the spells from the Lore of Fire."

The "chosen lore" of the first sentence is the "lore in question" in question in the second sentence. "Chosen lore" doesn't refer to the lore you choose for the specific wizard; the chosen lore is the lore in the brackets.I can see how it would be confusing but the Sphinx terrain helps demonstrate how the rules are intended to be interpreted.