PDA

View Full Version : Triumph & Treachery: challenge question



Gutripper
26-10-2014, 11:23
After a massive game of T&T yesterday we had an interesting situation that we couldn't quite agree on and ended up being rolled for to decide

Army A general is in combat with Army B unit incl general, and their two generals are in a challenge for the last two turns. As per normal WFB rules the challenge can not be broken until one part is killed or they are pulled apart for some other reason so they are fighting on

It's player C's turn and Army C charges a unit into the Army B unit's flank, and the Army C general throws a challenge.

Discussion starts on whether Army B general can accept the challenge....

View 1 : No he can not, until the challenge is broken in Player B's turn by Player B nominating CC vs Player C instead of A (pushing player A 1" away from CC), Player C's general is still locked in combat with the Army A general, and can thus not accept further challenges (despite the fact that the combat between A and B is ignored in player C's turn)

View 2: Yes he can, because in Player C's turn all other combat is ignored, so in theory the general is no longer technically in a challenge with Army general A

I think View 2 throws up a serious issue with the fact that let's say Player A gets the next turn. He would technically no longer be in a challenge that he was in before and would be free to challenge again or not, when he was previously locked in combat, meaning the Lord can run around and accept and fight challenges in multiple places until it's that player's turn and he decides an enemy to combat with pushing the others away...

Ramius4
26-10-2014, 11:43
Player A and B's Generals would still be locked in a challenge because they are still in combat with each other. Player C just loses out on being able to challenge.

So yes, view 1 is correct.

Gutripper
26-10-2014, 14:01
Player C just loses out on being able to challenge.

I assume other non-challenged characters in Army B's unit would still be free to accept the challenge, just not the lord...

theunwantedbeing
26-10-2014, 14:35
I assume other non-challenged characters in Army B's unit would still be free to accept the challenge, just not the lord...

One challenge per combat.
So if you charge into a combat that contains a challenge, you can't declare a new one (and neither can anyone else in that combat for that matter).

Page 102 of the rulebook.

Tae
26-10-2014, 14:42
As its T&T, would not unit A be 'bumped' out of the combat as that player has not been declared as the enemy player that phase, so therefore is a neutral player so is therefore moved an inch back out of combat.

In which case the challenge is fine as General A isn't involved.

Ramius4
26-10-2014, 14:48
As its T&T, would not unit A be 'bumped' out of the combat as that player has not been declared as the enemy player that phase, so therefore is a neutral player so is therefore moved an inch back out of combat.

In which case the challenge is fine as General A isn't involved.

No.

Close Combat Phase: If friendly units are in combat with units from only one opposing army, then that army’s player must be chosen as the enemy player for that Close Combat phase. If friendly units are in combat with units belonging to two or more opposing players, then one of those players must be chosen as the enemy player, and a Truce is called with all other neutral players (see Truces, next). Attacks are only ever made between friendly units and enemy units.

Truces
When a Truce is called in the Close Combat phase, any neutral unit that is in base contact with a friendly unit must be moved 1” away from the friendly unit(s). Move the neutral unit by the shortest route, maintaining the same facing, until it is at least 1” away from all friendly units. If such a move is impossible, either because there is not enough space, or because the neutral unit is engaged in combat with an enemy unit or a unit belonging to another neutral player, then the unit remains in place, but takes no part in the Close Combat phase.

Gutripper
27-10-2014, 10:36
One challenge per combat.
So if you charge into a combat that contains a challenge, you can't declare a new one (and neither can anyone else in that combat for that matter).

Page 102 of the rulebook.

So just to be devil's advocate here....

assuming A and B are involved in a challenge, and C is now in combat with B

Since only two sides are involved in a combat at any one time (since the other combat between A and B is ignored during player C's turn), can it not be considered that C and B are entitled to have 1 challenge between them as well?

As the combat between B and C does not already contain a challenge player C or B are entitled to make a challenge.

The combat between A and B is considered a different combat

Ravening Wh0re
27-10-2014, 12:42
No.

Close Combat Phase: If friendly units are in combat with units from only one opposing army, then that army’s player must be chosen as the enemy player for that Close Combat phase. If friendly units are in combat with units belonging to two or more opposing players, then one of those players must be chosen as the enemy player, and a Truce is called with all other neutral players (see Truces, next). Attacks are only ever made between friendly units and enemy units.

Truces
When a Truce is called in the Close Combat phase, any neutral unit that is in base contact with a friendly unit must be moved 1” away from the friendly unit(s). Move the neutral unit by the shortest route, maintaining the same facing, until it is at least 1” away from all friendly units. If such a move is impossible, either because there is not enough space, or because the neutral unit is engaged in combat with an enemy unit or a unit belonging to another neutral player, then the unit remains in place, but takes no part in the Close Combat phase.

Could you clarify a little more Ramius, please?
By my reading of what you just wrote, A and B have called a truce thus leaving C free to issue a challenge to B. A is basically out of combat (and out of a challenge)

Gutripper
27-10-2014, 13:38
Could you clarify a little more Ramius, please?
By my reading of what you just wrote, A and B have called a truce thus leaving C free to issue a challenge to B. A is basically out of combat (and out of a challenge)

I think the way to interpret that is that the truce, which is also when the models are moved apart, does not actually occur until you have a player that is in a close combat involving more than one other player. That player then chooses an 'enemy' for the cc phase and is in a truce with the other

for example (assumes no other CC anywhere else)

Player A's turn
A charges B - CC between A and B (CC phase ends with both units still locked in CC)

Player B's turn
continued CC between A and B (CC phase ends with both units still locked in CC)

Player C's turn
C charges B - CC between C and B (CC phase ends with both units still locked in CC)

Player A's turn
CC between A and B (CC phase ends with both units still locked in CC)

Player B's turn
At the start of CC Player B chooses an enemy for example Player C. A truce is then called with Player A and their models previously engaged in CC are moved 1" apart. CC between B and C continues


Nothing stops Player A from then charging player B again in his turn.... :)

Ravening Wh0re
27-10-2014, 15:13
Yes, that's how I see it.

But Ramius said that A and B are still locked in combat. How can this be if C has chosen B to be the enemy (and thus has to call truce with A)?

furrie
27-10-2014, 15:26
Yes, that's how I see it.

But Ramius said that A and B are still locked in combat. How can this be if C has chosen B to be the enemy (and thus has to call truce with A)?


Truces
When a Truce is called in the Close Combat phase, any neutral unit that is in base contact with a friendly unit must be moved 1” away from the friendly unit(s). Move the neutral unit by the shortest route, maintaining the same facing, until it is at least 1” away from all friendly units. If such a move is impossible, either because there is not enough space, or because the neutral unit is engaged in combat with an enemy unit or a unit belonging to another neutral player, then the unit remains in place, but takes no part in the Close Combat phase.

When you look at the rule above(if this is indeed the exact wording), the key word is friendly unit. A friendly unit is unit under control of the current player, in this case player c. So that would meam all of player A's unit that are in combat with player C(only C, because B arn't friendly units). So that is why B and C are still in combat, just not fighting. Now to get back at the OP's question, the general of both A & B are locked in a challenge already and so they can't accept another challenge. Not sure if there can be another challenge, between different characters.

Ravening Wh0re
27-10-2014, 19:01
I mustve got my lines crossed somewhere.

How can A be in combat with C?
A and B were fighting. C then charges B in the flank. The ensuing fight is between B and C. A doesnt really come into it, right?

Now C declares B to be the enemy, causing A and B to call a truce. A backs off leaving B and C free to fight (and issue challenges)

Ramius4
27-10-2014, 20:19
Could you clarify a little more Ramius, please?
By my reading of what you just wrote, A and B have called a truce thus leaving C free to issue a challenge to B. A is basically out of combat (and out of a challenge)

Because truces are only called when the player whose turn it is, has a unit in base contact with units from 2 or more players.

So for instance in the OP's case A and B were already fighting. C charged in to fight B, but is not in contact with A. Therefore, C fights B, but no truce is called with A because they're not in base contact with C.

Make sense?

Truces don't happen just because there are units from 3 sides touching. In other words, truces never happen if it's the active player's turn and he's only in base contact with 'enemy units' a multiple combat.