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Carnelian
27-10-2014, 18:42
I love regular Ogryns but short of putting them in a Stormlord with a few priests they are a complete waste of points I find (just Ogryns not Bullgryns). This is a great shame.

How would everyone like to see them being fixed to make them competively balanced?

I would like their Strength to go to 6, their ripper gun to go to strength 6, and for them to gain an assault transport specific to them which carries 13 people (so 4 ogryns plus an independent character). I wouldn't mind if the assault transport was AV10 all around as long as it was dirt cheap, so that it couldn't automatically deliver them without thinking, but would be fine if you got first turn and stand some chance if hidden or behind other tanks or just not a priority target etc

What are other people's thoughts?

Bloodknight
27-10-2014, 20:23
I want the Bonehead to carry a Powerfist and I want them to fit into a Chimera again in a decent sized unit. That's all. Currently the big boys fill no role in the IG and what little role they had got usurped by Bullgryns. Why all types of Ogryn had to become Very Bulky so they can't use a transport properly is anyone's guess, my money is on "no playtesting".

That said, I am still at a loss as to why Ogryns are being punished with such a lousy LD score for two codices now. Ogryns are probably the most devout and stupid people in the Imperial Guard, in the fluff they never run away because they want to prove their dedication. So...LD6? What was wrong with the old 8 and 9 with the Bonehead? It's not like they hadn't been overpriced at the time as well, that just seems to be the fate of the non-tiny abhumans in the guard. They're always very, very expensive for what they can accomplish, but now they're not only very expensive themselves, they're also squishy (keep in mind that there's a lot more firepower in the game than there used to be), don't hit particularly hard and they're prone to running away if not babysat by another not particularly cheap character model which then prevents their use of a transport vehicle in a useful unit size.


So as a summary: price down by 5 points, LD up by 2, change Very Bulky to Bulky and let the unit champion carry something scary like a powerfist or at least a power axe.

Currently they're an allround option that suffers a lot from there being no real target type for them. They're shooty with some assault capability, but they're mediocre at shooting and lack flexibility in assault (they're like huge tactical Marines, but without options, really). The stuff they can reliably kill is usually not worth the investment put into the Ogryns. Might as well buy more IG gunpeople with heavy weapons.
Personally, I hate that. I like abhumans. I've got an Ogryn Platoon painted (yeah, not a squad, platoon). I want them to be good because Ogryns and Ratlings and Techpriests and Sanctioned Psykers make the Imperial Guard a 40K army. The rest is just Space Soviets. Hm.

Ghungo
27-10-2014, 20:26
Drop ogryns by 5 points. Give ogryns and bullgryns furious charge again. Make the grenade guantlet a free exchange for the rippa gun. Make bullgryns a 10 point upgrade for carapace and slab shield upgrade and +1 leadership/atks (basically make them a squad of boneheads). Make the power maul a 5 point exchange for rippa gun/grenade guantlet. Make the brute shield a 5 point upgrade for the slab shield.

This makes ogryns 5 points cheaper w furious charge and bullgryns the same price but with better leadership and furious charge.

I would love to see them returned to bulky but that probably won't happen. They are the slow durable assault unit and rough riders are the faster fragile assault unit.

They can also make nork a special character upgrade for orgyn units. Since he has a very weak role as bodyguard for CCS squads. This will give them a durable higher leadership character to help them.

Scammel
27-10-2014, 20:26
Why all types of Ogryn had to become Very Bulky so they can't use a transport properly is anyone's guess, my money is on "no playtesting".


My money's on them being Very Bulky because they're very bulky. They're huge.

Ghungo
27-10-2014, 20:33
My money's on them being Very Bulky because they're very bulky. They're huge.
I agree thier new slab wall rule is based on the fact they are so huge they give cover.

Bloodknight
27-10-2014, 20:34
My money's on them being Very Bulky because they're very bulky. They're huge.

tbh I don't give a hoot about what the models look like when I'm thinking about playability. :)

Very Bulky is a rule the game did not really need. There are hardly any units affected by it anyway (Ogryns and?).

Scammel
27-10-2014, 21:14
tbh I don't give a hoot about what the models look like when I'm thinking about playability. :)

Playability isn't the issue. The issue is nonsense like 'Ogryns are Very Bulky because they weren't play-tested' when the real reason is utterly obvious.


Very Bulky is a rule the game did not really need. There are hardly any units affected by it anyway (Ogryns and?).

Chaos Spawn and Beasts of Nurgle, purely off the top of my head.

Bloodknight
27-10-2014, 21:26
I don't find it that obvious. Ogryns used to be Bulky. Bulky meant "they take up two spaces in a transport". The escalation level of "Very Bulky" is unneeded from a playability point of view given that the units that are Very Bulky at the moment suck in small units. Ogryns weren't even good when you could cram 6 of them into a Chimera in the last codex because they cost too much. Now they cost too much and you can't even drive a unit around that has punch. Unnecessary nerf there. Unnecessary nerfs usually mean that the rule of cool beat playtesting*.

That said: I don't have my books here since I'm in the middle of moving house, but can Beasts of Nurgle and Spawn even be transported?
I think Attack Bikes are very bulky, but I seem to remember that they have a clause that they can't be transported anyway unless the transport says so...which AFAIK none does.


*to be fair, internal playtesting can't really catch much since for some reason unknown, game developers tend to be so-so at playing their own games. That is not restricted to GW, I've met some people writing for a different game that I love who're also very enthusiastic about what they do, they're just godawful players that couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag in a tournament.

Scammel
27-10-2014, 22:14
I'm confused that you're confused why Ogryns are Very Bulky when they stand a head (an Ogryn head) taller and considerably wider than a Terminator. It's got nothing to do with impacting how the unit performs on the table beyond representing the physical dimensions of the things.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure it's possible to transport Spawn. You can definitely transport characters on Palanquins, too.

Carnelian
27-10-2014, 22:22
Hey weenbarns, stop being so cranky and get back on topic of wishlisting improvements!

mr. peasant
27-10-2014, 22:32
I'm confused that you're confused why Ogryns are Very Bulky when they stand a head (an Ogryn head) taller and considerably wider than a Terminator. It's got nothing to do with impacting how the unit performs on the table beyond representing the physical dimensions of the things.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure it's possible to transport Spawn. You can definitely transport characters on Palanquins, too.

The counterpoint however is that Ogryns aren't real. They're models and a collection of rules made by Games Workshop. There's no reason why they had to make the models that size or to give them those particular rules. The question that begs questioning - and that I'm sure is what Bloodknight is getting at - is why Games Workshop decided to make it that way.

Lord Zarkov
27-10-2014, 22:48
The counterpoint however is that Ogryns aren't real. They're models and a collection of rules made by Games Workshop. There's no reason why they had to make the models that size or to give them those particular rules. The question that begs questioning - and that I'm sure is what Bloodknight is getting at - is why Games Workshop decided to make it that way.

They've been roughly the same size relative to a Terminator (read much bigger) for decades. If they suddenly shrunk them to Termie size there would be outcry. Very Bulky is just categorising the size they've always been.

Also on a 'what is Very Bulky?' note, IIRC Primarchs are Very Bulky or larger.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Bloodknight
27-10-2014, 22:49
What mr. peasant said.


Very Bulky is just categorising the size they've always been.


We're still talking about the rules here, and how they affect the unit, though. "Very Bulky" is a relatively new - and quite unnecessary from a gameplay point of view - rule that didn't exist until 3 years ago. Ogryns used to be Bulky (when it wasn't a USR, they had that in their unit entry), and the metal models aren't really smaller than the new plastics. :).

Scammel
27-10-2014, 23:05
The counterpoint however is that Ogryns aren't real. They're models and a collection of rules made by Games Workshop. There's no reason why they had to make the models that size or to give them those particular rules. The question that begs questioning - and that I'm sure is what Bloodknight is getting at - is why Games Workshop decided to make it that way.

Oh, so why are the models big in the first instance? Its due to whatever directive the sculpting team received from on high, with the rules then based off those models.

Yvain
27-10-2014, 23:32
What really pissed me off was when I looked at Grotesques and think how come they are so much cheaper yet so much better than my ogryns? It is BS.

My ideal Ogryn unit would be:

35 points, same stat line, FNP, and special rule like smash lite, if an ogryn model is injured it has the option to make a single smash attack instead of regular ones 1(kind of a tard strength move), regular do not get AP2.

Bullgyn becomes an ogryn upgrade option. Now I can put a few bulls in the front to act as tanks for the back section of hitters They can work as a foot mobile force.

40 points, same stat line, FNP, smash lite.

Nork

80 points, same state line, FNP +4, smash lite, ability to always use his own toughness to wound regardless of majority.

I would not even mind if they were Very bulky then. It is a reasonable upgrade that makes them good at absorbing damage and decent at dishing it out. It is also very fluffy as Ogryns are known for shrugging of wounds as wells picking up and moving tanks like it is nothing.

http://www.borsoft.net/ilbastione/download/documenti/NorkDeddog.pdf

It will never happen, but I can dream :)

ehlijen
28-10-2014, 01:10
I say no to bumping Ogryn leadership. They are dumb brutes with very little in the way of being able to conceptualise a greater battle plan. There is no way they should be the equal of veteran guardsmen when it comes to leading men.

Stupidity doesn't make you less likely to run, it makes you more likely to run because you don't understand the importance of not running and lack the ability to measure dangers to their actual threat to you.

Ripper guns have a burst limiter so Ogryns don't waste ammo. Why? Because if left to their own devices they will waste ammo with glee. If Ogryns can't be relied upon to not invalidate their own weaponry in a battle at the first opportunity, how could they possibly be expected to remember a battle plan? And if they don't remember the plan, or possibly even its existence, why shouldn't they run from anything sufficiently scary?

I think middling to low leadership with stubborn was a good compromise. They're more reliable when the **** hits the fan because they're so slow on the uptake, but they'll never reach the same peak of reliability as trained guardsmen.

Lord General Armstrong
28-10-2014, 02:10
Drop them by 5 points (both types of ogryns) a model, stop making them pay a sergeant tax, and revert them back to just Bulky. Done.

Other types of flavouring could include:
- Furious Charge
- Rage
- Rampage
- Smash
- Feel-No-Pain
- Concussive

Take your pick out of them. :P

Chem-Dog
28-10-2014, 03:55
My quick fix for Ogryn remains largely unchanged from ther previous Codex, give them the option to buy carapace.

With a more comprehensive overhaul I'd take all existing options (pending a elder redefinitions) and make them optional at either a per-model or per-unit level (depending on the option in question).
I would also add a number of new bits and pieces both for squads and for Boneheads. And maybe even a modified transport option.


I say no to bumping Ogryn leadership. They are dumb brutes with very little in the way of being able to conceptualise a greater battle plan.

You could argue the same about guardsmen in general, they're indoctrinated to follow orders without question.... Why explain your battle plan to someone who will play their part without needing to know why?!


Stupidity doesn't make you less likely to run,

"Too stupid to be scared" seems to be a well enough established concept to invoke here for the sake of argument. This, of course is what stubborn is indented to convey and highlights the inadequacy of having almost every "mind" based roll running from one stat. Bravery and discipline are two different things that can overlap but need to be tracked separately for this kind of thing.
I also think that Bulky, V.Bulky and so on should modify combat in some way, if you're a 10 foot slab of muscle and rage, half a dozen littler guys should represent less of a threat to you and make you less likely to run....


Ripper guns have a burst limiter so Ogryns don't waste ammo. Why?

Because Ogryns find the noise amusing/entertaining. Because, until they are plucked from their subsistence level hunter-gatherer existence and inducted into the Imperial Guard with little or no training they don't use ripper guns (if they use any ranged weapons at all) and really don't appreciate what they are for....

Scammel
28-10-2014, 08:28
I also think that Bulky, V.Bulky and so on should modify combat in some way, if you're a 10 foot slab of muscle and rage, half a dozen littler guys should represent less of a threat to you and make you less likely to run....

This is already pretty well represented through sheer dint of the fact that every (Very) Bulky model is a multi-wound, multi-attack brute that eats Guardsmen for breakfast.

mr. peasant
28-10-2014, 08:59
Here's a thought... what about allowing one of the dedicated transports (e.g. Taurox) to be taken as a squadron?

Szalik
28-10-2014, 10:11
-Reduce them to Bulky
-Give them Rampage, Slow and Purposeful.
-Give them option to take Carapace Armour for 5 pts per model.

Leave the costs as they are now, voila.

Yvain
28-10-2014, 12:39
Here's a thought... what about allowing one of the dedicated transports (e.g. Taurox) to be taken as a squadron?

Doesn't really do anything to help Ogryns. Their weak save and extreme price makes taking multiple transports for them a point sink.

ehlijen
28-10-2014, 13:04
You could argue the same about guardsmen in general, they're indoctrinated to follow orders without question.... Why explain your battle plan to someone who will play their part without needing to know why?!

There is a big difference between not being told the plan but being aware that it exists and that one has a place in it, and being so dense that one'd put short term entertainment over any concern for the future (wasting ammo because hehe boom funny).


"Too stupid to be scared" seems to be a well enough established concept to invoke here for the sake of argument. This, of course is what stubborn is indented to convey and highlights the inadequacy of having almost every "mind" based roll running from one stat. Bravery and discipline are two different things that can overlap but need to be tracked separately for this kind of thing.

Ogryns are clearly described as having problems with the concepts of 'later' and 'limited resources' as shown by the ammo limiter issue. Such people cannot truly be smart enough to show battlefield leadership capabilities, let alone reliability under pressure. In the game that is shown by units failing ld tests and performing actions the player doesn't want them to.
Ogryns also used to have a rule called 'it's dark in dere' stopping them from entering vehicles out of fear unless conditions were met. So clearly, ogryns do not lack self preservation instincts and can be afraid. That means 'too stupid to be scared' is clearly not the case with them.


Because Ogryns find the noise amusing/entertaining. Because, until they are plucked from their subsistence level hunter-gatherer existence and inducted into the Imperial Guard with little or no training they don't use ripper guns (if they use any ranged weapons at all) and really don't appreciate what they are for....
And it takes brain surgery to get them past that level of mental competence. Veteran ogryns don't learn that bullets are a finite resource until they get their brains bioniced up. These are not people you should ever rely on to figure out what you want them to do on their own.

Ironbone
28-10-2014, 14:32
There is a lot of issues with ogryns, statring from the fact they never been good unit to that even in roles that they supose to be good at, their perforemce is medicore at best. So issues about ogryns (both regular and bullgryns) are as follow :

Issue 1 - cost. Ogryns ALWAYS cost way too much. In 3ed dex. In 3.5 ed dex. In 5th ed their statline was wastly improved, but (along with some other unneeded changes) this was (over)killed by absurd pirice increase. And in 6th, their statline remains unchanged, but their rules got bit worse, yest cost reamiand the same. Becauseee...seemingly already poor unit need to be even worse. So if fixing be done by re-pricing alone, cost should go waaay down. Even with -10 pts Ogryns will hardly be broken. Duh, they hardly be above the averange.

Issue 2 - Durability. Ogryns used to be T4 wich was bad for milti-wound creature in era of omnipresent powerfists. Now they are T5 wich is a lot better, but that almost all. 5+ save is one that may as well do not exist. Bullgryns are bit better with their possible 3+, but to be honest, 3+ armour is in wide game just a averange save right now. Even moreso, because Ogryns have very low iniciative so they need durability to survive till they strike. So feel no pain seem to good rule here, as it fit both ogryns fluffwise portayal, and gameplay role.

Issue 3 - CC power. While 4 Ws4 S5 Attacks look awesome, in fact that actually isn't that impresive. Sure Ogryns can handle squishy targets, but at the same time, tose are very same ones that you can cut down with just shooting. If ogryns are suposed to counter-assoult role, they supose to hande enemies that are fast and/or durable enough to withstand guard shooting and threat the main gunline. Yet, ogryns almost hit the celling of their capabilities when facing very averange oppposition. And it goes even worse when facing something better than average. Ogryns may have lots of attacks, but if you realise that your everyday target will have 3+ save to bounce off 2/3 of your succesfull attacks. It's already bad when you have to spend (on averange, with re-roll to hit, bacause it's hard to find ogryns running without a priest ) 9 attacks to down single marine. And imagine fighting bike marines. Or terminators. Or Monsters. Or chapter master. Pure fun, isn't it ? So option for leader and possibly squad member good meele weapon is a must. On Bonehead power fist may be even worth this freaking 25 pts guard have to pay for it :p. Also - get back furious charge. While iniciative encahncing part is gone (besides, diffrence between 2 and 3 isn't that game changing as like between 4 and 5 ), Strg bonus would be realy fine. And even better would be restoring even older rule as back in the past Ogryns used to str 6 all the time thanks to ripper guns.

Issue 4 - mobility. This is possibly most hopeless part. Ok, Ogryns are (or, at least supossed to be) counter-attack units, so they do not have to be capable of lightning fast, 2nd turn charges. Problem is they are just infantry with zero mobility enchance like fleet or extended run. In other armies such units usually have counter to this by utylising transports, some evene have assoult vechicles, by rule or by beeing open topend. Guard do not. Ontop of this - Very bulky rule :mad:. Ogryns eat transport capacity insanly quickly. Chimera with capacity of 12, quite generous for game standards, can fit 3 of them. 3 ! Three ogryns that, even if they charge something, will most likekly to down 2, maybe with some luck 3, marines. Awesome, is it not ? Ofc, you can buy some BB transport with huge capacity like land raider, but in that case, if you are taking alies, why even bother with puting ogryns here when you can fit LR with hammernators and they will do the same job, just way better ? So, in short - they should degrow back to just beeing bulky. That's minor sllution, but one that can be appylied to game without changing too much.

In case of Tl;dr syndrome :
- Decrease price by 5 pts on both variants, no sergeant tax
- Add FnP rule
- Add either FC or make ripper gun +1 Str in meele
- Add power weapon/fist option for Bonehaed
- Change very bulky to just bulky.
:p.

Scammel
28-10-2014, 18:03
In terms of what I'd actually do, I'd just make them cheaper. Considering that Ogryns have about the most un-fancy approach to smashing heads as you can get, it strikes me as a crying shame to not tackle rules bloat by representing a unit's strength and toughness through Strength and Toughness. Just slash the price and let the statline carry the day.

Ssilmath
28-10-2014, 18:37
In terms of what I'd actually do, I'd just make them cheaper. Considering that Ogryns have about the most un-fancy approach to smashing heads as you can get, it strikes me as a crying shame to not tackle rules bloat by representing a unit's strength and toughness through Strength and Toughness. Just slash the price and let the statline carry the day.

This. The less units are jam packed with special rules, the better. A price drop is about all they really need to be fixed, their stats and Stubborn reflect the unit quite well.

Ironbone
28-10-2014, 20:39
Well, price cut is ceartainly a simplest of ways. Then again, concidering how bad ogryns are now, re-priceing must be quite drastic - to 30 or maybe even less ppm. Otherwise it would be just a half-mesure.

Yvain
28-10-2014, 23:31
Without some sort of durability increase they simply will never be taken even with a price reduction. We don't have an assault transport to hide in. Ogryns as it stands are very easy to remove from the table. Their shooting is lackluster and they are not very dangerous in close combat either so what do they really bring to the table? A priest can help them survive, but that is still 50% on hymns. They are little more than a tarpit against normal units. Against any power units like terminators or even something lack luster like berserkers with a few axes and they will fold pretty quick.

Even at something like 25 points per model I would still be pretty hesitant to take them, because they don't really do anything well. When you compare them to Bullgryns (also over priced) which are only 5 points more suddenly you see they could be pretty great. The increased save, which means they have something verse normal weapons, is HUGE. The ability to have a power maul is also a pretty great bonus. Now it is a unit that I can find a use for even before you take into account the slab shield ability. The Ogrynstar unit that uses Dark Angels to get invul save is a good example in that once they have some durability they actually become pretty solid. Even if they don't kill something they function as an effective tarpit.

What it boils down to points matter less than actual usefulness. There are a bunch of units in the game that could get by with a simple point reduction and be better fixed. I don't think Ogryns are one of them or at least that is how I look at it.

Scammel
29-10-2014, 08:46
Ogryns would do fine with a points reduction - after all, they're certainly not an active liability like Ripper Swarms or the old Ethereals or Chaos Spawn. They do have a cost-effective sweet spot somewhere.

Bloodknight
29-10-2014, 10:11
Color me confused, the CSM Chaos Spawn is one of the best units in that book.

iamcjb
29-10-2014, 10:17
The opponent should be terrified of Ogryns getting into close proximity. Thus the ripper gun needs to be brutal at close range, and they also need a combat boost. The suggestion of giving the bonehead a choice of combat weapons was a pretty good, and fairly simple idea.

Scammel
29-10-2014, 19:38
Color me confused, the CSM Chaos Spawn is one of the best units in that book.

The old Spawn. The active liability. Not just a poor unit, but one that would actually improve your opponent's chances of winning if you took them without the Chaos player having any say in the matter.

Chem-Dog
29-10-2014, 20:10
@ ehlijen, I was agreeing with you man :) Ogryn shouldn't get a better Ld than Guardsmen, but all the same Oggies failing Morale Checks for bouncing off of anything harder than a Guardsman pretty much seal their doom thanks to falling back with poor Initiative - another valid reason not to take them.

@ Scammel, you're right to a degree however when looking at everything Bulky or V.Bulky, they still fail to effectively bridge the gap between Standard infantry and MC's - something they should be doing - if you create a unit that shares all stats with one of these Bulkies but is a normal trooper with a single wound and attack, the unit of little guys will outperform the bigger guys wound-for-wound and attack-for-attack there should be something that sets them apart from smaller combatants, though I admit I'm not sure what.

=Angel=
29-10-2014, 20:12
Drop them to 20 or even 15 points and suddenly they are well worth the investment.

100 for a squad of 5 spaceogres seems about right, that's twenty regular dudes or a fethton of conscripts.
Thing about the guard is you are always weighing these outlandish shortranged thugs against flying devastator squads or armoured behemoths or even some more dudes with guns.

You can't go building deathstars that cost more than battle tanks that can start throwing pie on turn 1.

The ogryn aren't durable enough with t-shirts, I'd have em all count as having carapace. Some of em have bits of tank strapped to them as improvised armour.
Fluffwise thats what I'd be doing, and not the gothic stuff that the bullgryns have either, spare parts chained around their front and back.
Have em wear the spare tank treads and the techpriests will be pleased with the .00217% performance increase the tanks get.

But if they're not given any armour then their lives must be as cheap as everyone else in the guard. Price em like the expendable meatsacks they are and be done with it.

Sent from my R800i using Tapatalk 2

Bloodknight
29-10-2014, 21:21
Thing about the guard is you are always weighing these outlandish shortranged thugs against flying devastator squads or armoured behemoths or even some more dudes with guns.

I think this is the way the cookie crumbles. They're not attractive because they're really expensive for a unit that has a hard time finding a role in the IG.


Price em like the expendable meatsacks they are and be done with it.

Word. Not more special rules and stuff. Make them cheap.

Scammel
29-10-2014, 21:22
Relatively expendable they may be, they are not 15pts of expendable. 30 or so seems fair off the top of my head - that's on par with Spawn, the trade-off being movement and the funky CC table for not-awful shooting, a permanent save and a more exclusive role within their own faction.

Ghungo
30-10-2014, 00:54
Ogryns are not getting a new sprue so no new weapon options. All the current ogryns need are
5 point drop on both types
Furious charge
FNP 5+
Bulky
Ripper gun count as CCW again

This means you can put 5 and preist in a chimera. A bone head w brute shield and power maul is str 8 on charge. FNP makes even a basic ogryn durable and the upgrade to bullgryn wouldn't be such a huge improvement for 5 points. The unit still has a weakness. You can fix bad leadership with a priest commissar or rampart formation. However poison, ID, psykers, str 10 and high initiative melee will hurt them as it should. Ogryns are not monstrous creatures. The above changes are not overpowered however the rampart detachment would be one of our best formations.

ehlijen
30-10-2014, 02:35
Anything under 30 points is going to be too cheap at their current statline.

A space marine is ~15, a marine veteran ~20. An Ogryn has +1S +1T +2W +1 or 2 A and a +1S and +1 shots gun. They also have less skills and a weaker save, true, but they are still much better than 15 or 20 point marines.

Their problem is the AP system and how simply being strong doesn't help in it at all. If armour save modifiers existed, GW could just give them +1AP in combat via a ripper club weapon and everything would be peachy. But because you can't touch power armour through brute strength without becoming a de facto MC, Ogryns are in the wierd place where they're great in CC against enemy guardsmen or tanks, but not anything in between (aka most of the 40k universe).

Their resilience is actually pretty good. Many CC units wound them on 6s, and almost all the rest on 5s, and at T5 it takes three powerfist hits to kill just one even though they don't have EW. If even moderate saves weren't shrugging off so much of an ogryn's punch, they'd be pretty good.

But as it is, they pay for a lot of potential that rarely manifests. Example: one terminator cannot kill an ogryn without charging in one turn, no matter his CC weapon. An ogryn can theoretically kill up to three terminators a turn without charging. That kind of potential has to cost points even though in a direct confrontation, the termies will still likely wipe the floor with the ogryns. Throw in ogryns having little protection against attacks that bypass their defence (EW, poison) while termies have loads (good armour and good invuls are easy to get), and yeah, why'd the IG even recruit them other than for labour?

They'd probably be ok if they had an AP4 CC weapon. But then they'd step on the bullgryn toes.

=Angel=
30-10-2014, 09:40
A terminator doesn't have to kill an ogryn in cc, he can hammer him with a storm bolter or linked bolter while walking backwards.
Ogryns should be costed to reflect the fact that they don't have a cc delivery system or guns to contribute until they get there.
Three 5+ save wounds is not a delivery system or a replacement for terminator armour.

Ogryn drivebys are not a thing, noone is concerned about 9 bs3(non plasma/melta) shots jumping out of a chimera so what is needed is 5+ ogryns in someone's face to make them concerned.

If they weren't too expensive to walk/ run into combat/close firing range, receiving casualties from potshots then that's what they'd be doing.

ehlijen
30-10-2014, 13:21
A terminator doesn't have to kill an ogryn in cc, he can hammer him with a storm bolter or linked bolter while walking backwards.

Ogryns also have good guns. And if your strategy for terminators is to keep them at >12" then you're losing just as badly as the poor sod who actually took Ogryns.


Ogryns should be costed to reflect the fact that they don't have a cc delivery system or guns to contribute until they get there.
Three 5+ save wounds is not a delivery system or a replacement for terminator armour.

Thanks* to allies, they do. SW droppods and Land raiders are now free for all, and you can always stick a stormhammer or gorgon in your LOW slot.

Welcome to 7th ed :(

*I'm not actually grateful

=Angel=
30-10-2014, 13:53
Ogryns also have good guns. And if your strategy for terminators is to keep them at >12" then you're losing just as badly as the poor sod who actually took Ogryns.

Well, yes. That's the theoretical matchup between a terminator and an Ogryn on an infinite featureless plain.
My point was there's no delivery system for sphessogres, they have to take fire at some point- at least one if they are using a vehicle- and if they are using a vehicle they are too few in number to matter.


Thanks* to allies, they do. SW droppods and Land raiders are now free for all, and you can always stick a stormhammer or gorgon in your LOW slot.

Welcome to 7th ed :(

*I'm not actually grateful

EW.
I don't play THAT 40k.

Ironbone
30-10-2014, 16:49
EW.
I don't play THAT 40k.
Sadly, we (almost) all do now :p.


Thanks* to allies
Then why not use alies to fufill Ogryns role ? There is a lot of units (hammernartors, deff kompany, honor guard, and so on ) that perform better in cc than ogryns, while beeing more reliable and/or durable as well.

Lord Commander Solar
30-10-2014, 17:03
To be honest, I think that the problem could be fixed, along with a lot of the other overcosted/undercosted issues, if they stop rounding points up/down. I've always thought this.

Baaltor
31-10-2014, 04:34
I don't think they really need any gimmicky rules added onto them. The Sslyth in the new DE book seem to be pretty well recieved, and those are almost directly comparable in every way, yet they are cost 25 points, which is almost half of the Ogryn cost.

Ironbone
31-10-2014, 05:06
along with a lot of the other overcosted/undercosted issues, if they stop rounding points up/down.
Well, they kinda do so now. For example, GK terminators cost 33 pt each.


The Sslyth in the new DE book seem to be pretty well recieved, and those are almost directly comparable in every way, yet they are cost 25 points, which is almost half of the Ogryn cost
Well, Sslyths have 2 wounds instead of Ogryns 3 ;).

Yvain
31-10-2014, 11:18
Thanks* to allies, they do. SW droppods and Land raiders are now free for all, and you can always stick a stormhammer or gorgon in your LOW slot.


Also no one would ever do this because Hammer Terminators are better. The gorgon might be acceptable, but LOW are not that common/acceptable for regular pick up games. Even forgeworld can be a little rough still.


I don't think they really need any gimmicky rules added onto them. The Sslyth in the new DE book seem to be pretty well recieved, and those are almost directly comparable in every way, yet they are cost 25 points, which is almost half of the Ogryn cost.

Sslyth also have fleet and FNP. Grotestques I think are a better comparison/archetype for Ogryns. Only difference is one less armor, but they get free FNP, Rampage, and only Bulky. They trade the Ripper gun for an instant death CC weapon. For cheaper than Ogryns. They are almost built like my dream Ogryn is. :cries:

Then you add in they can use WWP with a character or raider to assault out of.

Snake Tortoise
31-10-2014, 11:34
GW seem to struggle a bit with those mid sized guys, like tyranid warriors. Either reduce the cost and leave them as they are (though better LD seems fair) or buff them to do a specific job well

Vipoid
31-10-2014, 12:01
GW seem to struggle a bit with those mid sized guys, like tyranid warriors. Either reduce the cost and leave them as they are (though better LD seems fair) or buff them to do a specific job well

I think the problem is that GW seems to think their statline alone will accomplish far more than it actually does.

Special Weapons? "Are you mad, man? They already have 3 attacks - and at S5. That's more than a Space Marine!"
Transport? "Ha, what do you need one for? They're already T5 with 3 wounds! Man up and let them soak up a bit of fire."
Save? "Save? You want a save? They're already T5 with 3 wounds apiece! No, you can't have a meaningful save. Now go away and don't come back until you fully appreciate their statline!"

Yvain
31-10-2014, 14:39
I think the problem is that GW seems to think their statline alone will accomplish far more than it actually does.

Special Weapons? "Are you mad, man? They already have 3 attacks - and at S5. That's more than a Space Marine!"
Transport? "Ha, what do you need one for? They're already T5 with 3 wounds! Man up and let them soak up a bit of fire."
Save? "Save? You want a save? They're already T5 with 3 wounds apiece! No, you can't have a meaningful save. Now go away and don't come back until you fully appreciate their statline!"

It would not surprise me if its more of a fluffy/economic case. When you look at Warriors, I believe the thinking is they are less about their stat line and more about the synapse potential. Their stat line isn't actually that bad, when you look at it in a vacuum. They will only be instant death killed by weapons that would already pierce a +3 save. They are rather decently durable for a model of their class. When you add in the fact that they create synapse you have to boost the price slightly. A mark of nurgle on a DP costs around 15 points. If you added 1T to a warrior suddenly it has the same cost and stat line and utility of a single bullgryn. So to an extent they fit a certain number of check marks persay to justify their point cost. (not saying they are not overpriced)

Thematically having to pop their larger models to weaken the horde is suppose to be the fluff. So that is probably why they have the save and T they have. It is to make it a satisfying for the players theme wise to "forge the narrative". Bigger bugs also go more pricey as well and synapse changed. So when the new warrior kit dropped they were thinking you would all go nuts for it to fill those gaps in your list. They wanted you to buy a bunch of these lynch pin models to make an army that looks like it is "supposed to" on the tabletop.

For Ogryns, I think they might be intentionally weaker to an extent. GW was thinking more along the lines of well people already have ogryns so we have to make bullgryns better so they will buy new stuff. If you left Ogryns with FC the maul type bullgryns would be instant deathing stuff all over the place. So they had to lose FC. Hammer of Wraith is there to simulate that giant strength theme and they left the price the same because of that. Meanwhile, IG is supposed to be a weaker CC army so I think Ogryns are envisioned as a back field support unit walking beside the main line. I don't think GW wants you walking around with multiple full Ogryn squads because it would weaken the way the army is supposed to look on the table, which is why they are not cheap. Bullgryns on the other hand are a 5 point upgrade for Ogryns and they are insanely better even before upgrades like mauls. You are paying 5 points for a better save and a mobile cover save. Why would you not? I think maybe a 5 point drop and they would move from decent to kind of great.

Again themeatically and visually, GW can see you having a walking giant line infront of your army holding hands under the rainbow of the great narrative forge. Neither unit is supposed to hiding in a transport because it does not fit the theme. In addition, GW can't have you hiding those awesome new kits that no one really bought. (except me, I actually think it is kind of neat) This is all of course just speculation.

Radu Lykan
31-10-2014, 14:56
i have seen ogryns fielded using grotesque rules or the rules of ork nobz, with the current state of 40k with its dataslates/formations/unbound/allies it seems if you dont like the rules of something just use counts as and ally something in that fits, its not ideal but if done sensibly it can work?

Carnelian
31-10-2014, 21:04
i have seen ogryns fielded using grotesque rules or the rules of ork nobz, with the current state of 40k with its dataslates/formations/unbound/allies it seems if you dont like the rules of something just use counts as and ally something in that fits, its not ideal but if done sensibly it can work?

This is a good solution for many models that you like the look of but don't get good rukes

ehlijen
01-11-2014, 00:09
I think the problem is that GW seems to think their statline alone will accomplish far more than it actually does.

Special Weapons? "Are you mad, man? They already have 3 attacks - and at S5. That's more than a Space Marine!"
Transport? "Ha, what do you need one for? They're already T5 with 3 wounds! Man up and let them soak up a bit of fire."
Save? "Save? You want a save? They're already T5 with 3 wounds apiece! No, you can't have a meaningful save. Now go away and don't come back until you fully appreciate their statline!"

The thing is, though, given the background Ogryns have had since 2nd ed, this all makes sense.
Special weapons? But we described them as just barely intelligent enough to use the basic guns specially made for them. Would they really have the brainpower to understand the differences between different guns?
High tech gear (power weapons etc)? Again, dumb, but also, we don't issue that stuff to guardsmen because it's too rare. Why would we have some to spare for abhuman scum?
Bigger low tech CC weapons? Sure, but the rules don't differentiate between a butterknife and a 20pd mallet as long as neither is a power weapon.
Better than a 5+ save? The standard issue armour of the guard is flak armour. Why would we make something better for these abhumans rather than just larger vests out of the same stuff?

Bullgryns were an opportunity for new gear and background, but Ogryn gear is about as good as the background and the models justify. Which leaves fiddling with their statline or cost.

Vipoid
01-11-2014, 00:21
The thing is, though, given the background Ogryns have had since 2nd ed, this all makes sense.
Special weapons? But we described them as just barely intelligent enough to use the basic guns specially made for them. Would they really have the brainpower to understand the differences between different guns?

I was more thinking of special melee weapons - like Power Fists.

Or, would they just find a way to punch themselves to death? :p



High tech gear (power weapons etc)? Again, dumb, but also, we don't issue that stuff to guardsmen because it's too rare. Why would we have some to spare for abhuman scum?

Fair point.



Bigger low tech CC weapons? Sure, but the rules don't differentiate between a butterknife and a 20pd mallet as long as neither is a power weapon.

Also a fair point.

Though, why then are Bullgryns allowed such rare items? Is there something that makes them special in this regard (I can't recall their fluff)?



Better than a 5+ save? The standard issue armour of the guard is flak armour. Why would we make something better for these abhumans rather than just larger vests out of the same stuff?

Granted, but there are rules like FNP - which could grant a type of save that doesn't require expensive armour.

Wildcard84
01-11-2014, 12:04
On the previous imperial guard codex i was pretty certain that the only thing ogryns back then needed was Rending USR. And now with all the new toys and rules, i still feel the same. Maybe add rending do some of the shooting weapons, or eldar like monofilament (or what ever it was called) to give some benefit for rolling six'es.

On str 5 it makes huge difference between being able to harm AV11 or with lucky rolls up to AV14. It would also be fluffy for those future Schwarzeneggers to be able to just By brute force do some real damage By ripping of weapon mounts or bashing drive systems. Also it would make sence for them to be rip apart humanoids even with protective and enhancing heavy armors.

Now, how to justify "ripper guns" being able to rip armor and fless apart, not sure yet. Would rending usr be too powerfull? Dunno overall.. same with lackluster grenade launchers currently. Atleast when mirrored to my local meta, there just arent targets for ogryn/bullgryn shooting.. nor that much for close combat either (maybe save for power maul)

Ghungo
01-11-2014, 18:11
Rending on a assault 3 str 5 weapon is a bit much

The person who said furious charge giving str 8 to 55-60 point bullgryn do realize they are only ap4 sure they can insta death toughness 4 non eternal warrior multi wound infantry on the charge only but they still need to get through any saves not 4+ or worse which isn't all that common

Yvain
02-11-2014, 00:19
Rending on a assault 3 str 5 weapon is a bit much

The person who said furious charge giving str 8 to 55-60 point bullgryn do realize they are only ap4 sure they can insta death toughness 4 non eternal warrior multi wound infantry on the charge only but they still need to get through any saves not 4+ or worse which isn't all that common

On a charge with a priest, a Bone has 5 attacks. The reroll to hit means you have a 50% chance of getting past a 2+ and should get a single wound passed on a 3+. That is pretty powerful for a 60 point model that you can spam. Would it be OP? Probably not, but I do think it is excessive.

Baaltor
02-11-2014, 02:52
I think this is the way the cookie crumbles. They're not attractive because they're really expensive for a unit that has a hard time finding a role in the IG.

They're not attractive because they're mishapen, overweight slobs.


Well, they kinda do so now. For example, GK terminators cost 33 pt each.


Well, Sslyths have 2 wounds instead of Ogryns 3 ;).

And FNP, which makes them coarsely comparable on the wounds front.


I think the problem is that GW seems to think their statline alone will accomplish far more than it actually does.


GW seems to do this for like every fifth unit. Most, esepecially these days, are pretty good, but then there's stuff like these that are laughable. It's almost like they forgot about chaos spawn circa 4th ed..



Special weapons? But we described them as just barely intelligent enough to use the basic guns specially made for them. Would they really have the brainpower to understand the differences between different guns?

I don't know, I'm pretty sure those bits of fluff are just really exaggerated. But that's just me.



I was more thinking of special melee weapons - like Power Fists.

Or, would they just find a way to punch themselves to death? :p


First thought: them trying to pick something out of their teeth with the powerfist. But I think equipping them with something good, let alone a relic like a P.Fist is severely unfluffy.

Chem-Dog
02-11-2014, 15:28
Anything under 30 points is going to be too cheap at their current statline.

Agreed, though I'd argue that tweaks to make them worth what they cost now would be better than price drops.


Their problem is the AP system and how simply being strong doesn't help in it at all. If armour save modifiers existed, GW could just give them +1AP in combat via a ripper club weapon and everything would be peachy. But because you can't touch power armour through brute strength without becoming a de facto MC

I wonder if this is the kind of tweak that'd make 40k "monstrous infantry" generally more viable.


They'd probably be ok if they had an AP4 CC weapon. But then they'd step on the bullgryn toes.

My issue is with why they thought power mauls were a good choice...
I mean the whole thug-with-a-club thing is understandable, you don't need smarts to swing a heavy stick about, but how much more useful would a Power Axe have been?! Failing that a hughe chunk of sharpened metal with rending attached. As it stands, in most circumstances the additional strength afforded by a Pmaul is over the top and the Concussive rule is almost always redundant. And I STILL want my Eviscerator armed Bonehead.



Thanks* to allies, they do. SW droppods and Land raiders are now free for all, and you can always stick a stormhammer or gorgon in your LOW slot.

Welcome to 7th ed :(

Might be ok for Generation ADHD, but this old git is a purist, C:IG or nothing. And, regardless of fluff desecration super team combos, a unit should serve a purpose and work within its own list.



For Ogryns, I think they might be intentionally weaker to an extent. GW was thinking more along the lines of well people already have ogryns so we have to make bullgryns better so they will buy new stuff.

Problem is they didn't. Bullgryn options are different but not inherently "better" both sacrifice some/all of their shooting output for a 4+ save and some other effects of questionable value.
But even then, the distinction between Ogryn and Bullgryn is entirely unnecessary -under the wargear there is nothing different about them and it's this fundamental part of the unit that is lacking.



If you left Ogryns with FC the maul type bullgryns would be instant deathing stuff all over the place.

Assuming the stuff they were hitting didn't have better than a 4+ save, or Initiative of 3+, yeah they'd do some damage. I don't really miss FC but it wouldn't have been hard to conceive another Melee weapon option if Mauls were going to cause that much of a problem.


Hammer of Wraith is there to simulate that giant strength theme and they left the price the same because of that.

We all get the HULKSMASH nature of an Ogryn charge ;) I actually think HoW represents it better than FC ever did.
If I were to tweak it, I'd make HoW hits Concussive, then it would REALLY reflect the impact :shifty: of an Ogryn Charge.



I don't think GW wants you walking around with multiple full Ogryn squads because it would weaken the way the army is supposed to look on the table,

If they really gave a damn about verisimilitude Unbound armies wouldn't be a thing.
I sincerely doubt GW would ever want us to limit the amount of purchases we make but, assuming they did, it doesn't change the fact that a single Ogryn unit performs poorly in it's role.


Bullgryns on the other hand are a 5 point upgrade for Ogryns and they are insanely better even before upgrades like mauls. You are paying 5 points for a better save and a mobile cover save. Why would you not?

I'll agree that upgrading to 4+ saves is good but...
Slab shields grant cover to any unit shot through them, so actually serve to protect the enemy when one considers how large the models are. 3+ save from locking shields is largely negated by the fact that you have to bunch up to get it AND that most players are geared up with an abundance of Ap3. That's before considering how the Grenadier Gauntlet is the very definition of "hit and miss" (Bs3 S4 Blast - whoopdidoo) and denies the unit overwatch despite the fact it's incredibly likely to receive a charge.

Even ignoring these faults (which I am willing to accept might be less of an issue than I see them as being) why would anyone use what is likely to be the most expensive unit in the force as a bullet shield - in an army of expendable meat-sacks?


Again themeatically and visually, GW can see you having a walking giant line infront of your army holding hands under the rainbow of the great narrative forge. Neither unit is supposed to hiding in a transport because it does not fit the them.

You say "hiding in a transport", I say "deploying my vanguard". ;)



Special weapons? But we described them as just barely intelligent enough to use the basic guns specially made for them. Would they really have the brainpower to understand the differences between different guns?

They don't need to understand the differences but, in the shorthand of 40k, special weaponry is harder to make and harder to maintain both would make them unlikely to be issued to Ogryn.


Bigger low tech CC weapons? Sure, but the rules don't differentiate between a butterknife and a 20pd mallet as long as neither is a power weapon.

The rules could be made to differentiate though ... There are a number of USR's that, when divorced from Power Weapons, make for interesting options, rending, shred, concussive and so-on.



Bullgryns were an opportunity for new gear and background, but Ogryn gear is about as good as the background and the models justify.

It could, and has been, argued that Powermauls and the field tech in Brute shields is a massive jump up in the complexity and value of equipment available to Ogryn, I reckon the Grenadier Gauntlet qualifies too.



Though, why then are Bullgryns allowed such rare items? Is there something that makes them special in this regard (I can't recall their fluff)?

No, there's not really anything aside from the suggestion that they're better "trained" which boils down to "Pavlovian response to explosion, with much hilarity.



Now, how to justify "ripper guns" being able to rip armor and fless apart

Not sure they were ever really supposed to be like that, they were large calibre automatic shotguns. Way back when they threw out such a hail of fire that it was impossible to miss with them - they auto hit - I'd happily embrace something similar to that.


Rending on a assault 3 str 5 weapon is a bit much

12" and with Bs 3 it isn't all that.


They're not attractive because they're mishapen, overweight slobs.

Big boned......

Bloodknight
03-11-2014, 08:16
First thought: them trying to pick something out of their teeth with the powerfist. But I think equipping them with something good, let alone a relic like a P.Fist is severely unfluffy.

Well, the Ork powerklaw is just a pair of hydraulic shears, basically. This could easily work for a Bonehead. I'd say that would bring Ogryns to a level with DE Grotesques which are pretty good at the same price level.


On a charge with a priest, a Bone has 5 attacks. The reroll to hit means you have a 50% chance of getting past a 2+ and should get a single wound passed on a 3+. That is pretty powerful for a 60 point model that you can spam. Would it be OP? Probably not, but I do think it is excessive.

Since the comparison with Grotesques came up: a Grotesque Aberration has a very similar statline to a Bonehead. It comes with 4 attacks base, one for two hand weapons, one for charging, most of the time D3 for Rampage and gains Furious Charge and Rage over the game.
i.e. an Aberration charging on turn 5 (they're usually going to be accompanied by a Haemonculus because they're not Fearless for a short while) can dish out 10 S6 Poison attacks that ID on a to-wound of 6. That is one guy. The other 3 in the squad have from 5 to 9 attacks depending on the turn, so the squad starts with at least 21 attacks and can generate up to 37 (plus the Haemonculus) and they cost the same as an Ogryn. The also have an assault transport at their disposal. Not to forget, they can get a bunch of flamer-like guns and the Aberration can have a power weapon or rending for a few points.

An Ogryn can deal 7 S5 attacks (3 shots, 4 attacks) and a HoW hit in one turn, too, which is not bad per se, as a transported squad of 3 (since the Chimera can't fit 4 and the babysitter) generates 9 S5 shots, 4 S5 hits and 13 attacks (plus the babysitter) but it comes with the caveat that their shooting might put them out of their assault range. Ogryns get re-rolls to hit from their sitter, Grotesques get re-rolls to wound against up to T5.

It's all pretty similar, but Grotesques are better for their points for a few reasons: Fearless and Feel no Pain. They have more staying power and will not run away if shot at. They're also pretty likely to murder MCs easily (they tend to generate a ton of ID wounds), something which Ogryns are pretty bad at. Also, they don't have Hammer of Wrath, but Rampage. HoW has the downside of not giving you a pile-in move. Rampage will usually give you extra attacks because your Grotesque unit is, most of the time, smaller than the unit they attack, and the units they don't get extra attacks against, they don't need extra attacks against.


That is pretty powerful for a 60 point model that you can spam.

As shown above, Grotesques do that at a little over half that price ;).

Yvain
03-11-2014, 13:03
As shown above, Grotesques do that at a little over half that price ;).


If you go a little earlier in the thread, I pointed out how Grotesques are massively better than Ogryns for cheaper. :)

In addition, Grotesques have Int 4 to the Ogryns Int 2.

My comment was more of just a speculation as to the why of pricing. I don't agree with it being priced at all correctly. It is just a guess as to why someone thought it was a good idea.

Ironbone
03-11-2014, 13:46
It is just a guess as to why someone thought it was a good idea.
Well, it used to be a joke that GW staff calculate cost of some units by playing darts. Even then, a question arise - did guy calculating Ogryns played very good or very bad :p ?

Ghungo
03-11-2014, 18:25
On a charge with a priest, a Bone has 5 attacks. The reroll to hit means you have a 50% chance of getting past a 2+ and should get a single wound passed on a 3+. That is pretty powerful for a 60 point model that you can spam. Would it be OP? Probably not, but I do think it is excessive.

You mean the hymn that you need to pass on a ld7 character? For an ability that Only works on the charge and only useful on multi wound toughness 4 units with no cover or invulnerable and an armour save worse then ap4 and without eternal warrior? That's not really a common sight and is such a niche target you will rarely see the advantage furious charge gives on this specific case. And you think this is excessive? Your joking right? Cause str 7 is so much worse that there is this thread talking about ways to fix a subpar unit and str 8 on the charge in your opinion is excessive? I'm just speechless as how bad your point is on this.

mr. peasant
03-11-2014, 18:28
From the sound of things, one of the Ogryns' main issue is a lack of role in the current Imperial Guard. Question is... would it be a better idea to perhaps allow Ogryns the option to upgrade from Ripper guns to Grenadier gauntlets, while sticking Bullgryns strictly to Power mauls only?

Vipoid
03-11-2014, 18:38
From the sound of things, one of the Ogryns' main issue is a lack of role in the current Imperial Guard.

I'm not sure it's a lack of role per se - more that they suck at their role. As counter-assault units, they're expensive, too slow to get to where they're needed (as well as lacking any assault transport to get them there, and being too bulky to fit in a transport in any reasonable number), have dubious survivability for their cost, and are just not good in combat - especially against dedicated assault units (you know - the units you'd actually want to send them against).


Question is... would it be a better idea to perhaps allow Ogryns the option to upgrade from Ripper guns to Grenadier gauntlets, while sticking Bullgryns strictly to Power mauls only?

The thing is, I struggle to even classify Grenadier Gauntlets as an upgrade. They have the same range, but exchange 3 shots for 1 blast with worse strength. Even with BS3, I'd rather have 3 S5 shots - which also let me hurt light vehicles (or rear armour), should the opportunity arise. There's also no danger of them scattering and killing my own infantry.

Yvain
03-11-2014, 21:21
You mean the hymn that you need to pass on a ld7 character? For an ability that Only works on the charge and only useful on multi wound toughness 4 units with no cover or invulnerable and an armour save worse then ap4 and without eternal warrior? That's not really a common sight and is such a niche target you will rarely see the advantage furious charge gives on this specific case. And you think this is excessive? Your joking right? Cause str 7 is so much worse that there is this thread talking about ways to fix a subpar unit and str 8 on the charge in your opinion is excessive? I'm just speechless as how bad your point is on this.

That is without the hymn, the reroll comes from hatred. Against non-multi wound model it isn't really an issue because strength 7 will damage it just fine. There a plenty of non-EW multi-wound characters out there that would be susceptible to that. And as I pointed out, there is a 50% a 60 point model will slaughter a 150+ MEQ character with terminator armor. Statistically he should cause that wound if they are just wearing power armor. There are a lot of them that fit that bill. Nearly every named SC in the SM book does not have EW. Same with Chaos. (I think its just Calgar and Abby) Furthermore, who else can instant death MEQ without paying permium for it then getting to hit last or needing to roll a 6? That is punching way high above its weight for a 60 point model. This doesn't even account for bleed over if you gave all more Bullgryns mauls.

While Ogryns need a buff they don't need to be turned into something OP. Fixing them one way does not mean breaking them the other. And I am not even saying that this would break them or that I am certain it should have been removed. I am just saying from a design perspective I can understand why GW changed it.

Bloodknight
03-11-2014, 21:39
The thing is, I struggle to even classify Grenadier Gauntlets as an upgrade.

I'd want points back if I had to exchange a Ripper Gun for a Grenadier Gauntlet which is a lot worse.

Ghungo
04-11-2014, 01:09
That is without the hymn, the reroll comes from hatred. Against non-multi wound model it isn't really an issue because strength 7 will damage it just fine. There a plenty of non-EW multi-wound characters out there that would be susceptible to that. And as I pointed out, there is a 50% a 60 point model will slaughter a 150+ MEQ character with terminator armor. Statistically he should cause that wound if they are just wearing power armor. There are a lot of them that fit that bill. Nearly every named SC in the SM book does not have EW. Same with Chaos. (I think its just Calgar and Abby) Furthermore, who else can instant death MEQ without paying permium for it then getting to hit last or needing to roll a 6? That is punching way high above its weight for a 60 point model. This doesn't even account for bleed over if you gave all more Bullgryns mauls.

While Ogryns need a buff they don't need to be turned into something OP. Fixing them one way does not mean breaking them the other. And I am not even saying that this would break them or that I am certain it should have been removed. I am just saying from a design perspective I can understand why GW changed it.
You still keep missing the point. Those terminator characters all have at least a 2+ save and statistically the ogryn is not likely to kill them. Those power armour marines characters all get a 3+ save because the power maul is only ap4. Then they all get at least a 4+ look out sir roll higher if they are an independant character. Statistically the ogryn will not insta kill any of them. And if that ogryn doesn't insta death them on the charge then it never will and will most likely die to insta death itself from a str 10 powerfist.There is almost no 4+ Armour toughness 4 multi wound non eternal warrior units without cover or invulnerable saves Except an ork nob. And even that character still has a 4+ look out sir roll. Which the nob will usually take regardless and that's still only a 20 point cost unit. Again your entire point is baseless.

You claimed bonehead are spammable they are not.
You claimed a bone head has 5 atks on the charge and with a priest reroll that's a 50% chance to hit and wound a terminator they is not true. In fact that ogryn bonehead with power maul and supporting priest a 95 point cost unit if boneheads were purchasable seperately which it is not is more expensive then that theoretical terminator.

Ssilmath
04-11-2014, 01:16
You still keep missing the point. Those terminator characters all have at least a 2+ save and statistically the ogryn is not likely to kill them. Those power armour marines characters all get a 3+ save because the power maul is only ap4.

What's the point in armor saves if everything that wants to beat face ignores them? The high number of attacks and high strength help against both hordes and for getting through good saves by weight of attacks.


And if that ogryn doesn't insta death them on the charge then it never will and will most likely die to insta death itself from a str 10 powerfist.

Most powerfists cap at str8. Unless you're dueling a Warboss or Lysander, it'll take three of those P Fist hits to kill the Ogryn.

Ghungo
04-11-2014, 01:26
What's the point in armor saves if everything that wants to beat face ignores them? The high number of attacks and high strength help against both hordes and for getting through good saves by weight of attacks.



Most powerfists cap at str8. Unless you're dueling a Warboss or Lysander, it'll take three of those P Fist hits to kill the Ogryn.
True I am not advocating for better power weapons like people asking for ap2 power fists however my point is furious charge isn't remotely overpowered on an ogryn however it does give a bonehead w maul the ability to hurt av14 vehicles on the charge.

Yvain
04-11-2014, 02:23
You still keep missing the point. Those terminator characters all have at least a 2+ save and statistically the ogryn is not likely to kill them. Those power armour marines characters all get a 3+ save because the power maul is only ap4. Then they all get at least a 4+ look out sir roll higher if they are an independant character. Statistically the ogryn will not insta kill any of them. And if that ogryn doesn't insta death them on the charge then it never will and will most likely die to insta death itself from a str 10 powerfist.There is almost no 4+ Armour toughness 4 multi wound non eternal warrior units without cover or invulnerable saves Except an ork nob. And even that character still has a 4+ look out sir roll. Which the nob will usually take regardless and that's still only a 20 point cost unit. Again your entire point is baseless.

You claimed bonehead are spammable they are not.
You claimed a bone head has 5 atks on the charge and with a priest reroll that's a 50% chance to hit and wound a terminator they is not true. In fact that ogryn bonehead with power maul and supporting priest a 95 point cost unit if boneheads were purchasable seperately which it is not is more expensive then that theoretical terminator.

Here is a 40k calculator for you to use to see for yourself:

http://www.mathhammer40k.com/melee/infantry

And it is you who are missing the point. The point is I think GW thinks a 60 model shouldn't be able to ID MEQ. That is the only point being made. And since Furious Charge is n fact gone, it could actually be true.

Ironbone
04-11-2014, 03:54
there is a 50% a 60 point model will slaughter a 150+ MEQ character with terminator armor
Highly unlikely. In case of 2+ save you need on averange 6 succesful wounds. That would reqire hiting and wounding on all attacks, inclouding Hammer of wrath. And that not counting look-out sir. Lack of any resonable Ap is one of major withstanding factors with Ogryns. Ap4 from mace have some uses, but overall, how many are dangerous cc units with 4+ armor ?

Yvain
04-11-2014, 04:06
Highly unlikely. In case of 2+ save you need on averange 6 succesful wounds. That would reqire hiting and wounding on all attacks, inclouding Hammer of wrath. And that not counting look-out sir. Lack of any resonable Ap is one of major withstanding factors with Ogryns. Ap4 from mace have some uses, but overall, how many are dangerous cc units with 4+ armor ?

Disregard it. The argument was about hypothetical str 8 from a charge causing instant death in challenge. It really is a pointless argument.

Baaltor
04-11-2014, 09:38
Well, the Ork powerklaw is just a pair of hydraulic shears, basically. This could easily work for a Bonehead. I'd say that would bring Ogryns to a level with DE Grotesques which are pretty good at the same price level.

That's apples to facebiters. The 'pair of hydraulic shears' is powered by imagination and the power of belief. Ogres don't have access to the WAAAGH!!! power that enables the powerklaw to function.

Chem-Dog
04-11-2014, 10:44
Ok, let's evaluate the Ogryn point by point.

Ws. Reasonable (especially in an IG army) but given their "elite" status, could arguably be increased.

Bs. Actually very good considering how dumb Ogryn are supposed to be. I could accept a reduction by a point.

S. Pretty good, above what a vast majority of potential opponents can do and makes them a contender against all but the toughest enemies.

T. Again, pretty good, provides a decent level of survivability against most basic weapons and unaugmented Melee attacks but offers no advantage against more powerful strikes or against the steadily growing list of ways to ignore T when wounding.

W. What's not to like? With T5 limiting ID instances to S10 or special circumstances, Ogryn can soak up a fair amount of damage.

I. This is where it all starts to go wrong. Virtually everyone strikes first against Ogryn. Whilst not inherently at fault for making them lacklustre, it does contribute as quite a lot of enemies will get all, or most of, their attacks in first.

A. No problems here.

Ld. Another big problem area. An average stat, but a vital one when an entire unit can be wiped out by failing a test against this value, especially with such a low Initiative.
Pinning is also a significant issue.

Sv. 5+ is almost entirely redundant unless, ironically, you're facing IG.
Very few weapons don't manage Ap5 and even if they don't, it's still only a 1-in-3 chance of saving against it. In a vast majority of cases wounding hit = wound.

Ripper gun. Uncomplicated. Suffers a little from a lack of Ap but understandable. Short range guarantees Ogryn are a Melee unit.

HoW. Goes some way to offset the issues of low Initiative. Not terrible but often does nothing. A problem with Ogryn attacks in general.

Stubborn. Like Hammer, goes some way to alleviate the inherent problem of being a low Ld model by ensuring it doesn't drop further, but does not reduce the innate likelihood of failing the test.

Very Bulky. This is the kicker for a lot of people. Ogryn need numbers to carry a fight and the standard Ogryn is incredibly succeptible to incoming fire. Understandably players will look to transports, not only to protect them from getting shot to pieces but to get them where they need to be in time.
With space inside transports coming at a premium now this boils the options down to two simple choices:
1)Deploy a small unit in a transport and hope it hits hard enough to make a difference when it gets there.
2)A foot slogging unit with as many extra bodies as possible to absorb casualties in the hope enough survive to get there and, if they do, hit hard enough to make it count.
For reference the cheapest squad+transport option costs 180, the most expensive foot slogging unit costs 410. Either way, or anything inbetween, is an incredibly costly "maybe" unit.

Tweaking any of those problem areas will help Ogryn be reliable enough to justify the points spend.
Of the different options mentioned, I think FNP makes the most sense (and fits the fluff).

Bloodknight
04-11-2014, 11:56
The 'pair of hydraulic shears' is powered by imagination and the power of belief. Ogres don't have access to the WAAAGH!!! power that enables the powerklaw to function.

I wasn't aware that Yarrick possesses the Power of the Waaagh to keep Ugulhard's Klaw running.

Ironbone
04-11-2014, 12:43
Damm you bloodknight, you nije'd me :p. Yeah, ork tech can work in non-ork hands, it just might turn bit too unreliable/crude to use.


Pinning is also a significant issue.
And so are tank-shocks, panic tests, psychic shrieks, and so on. But actyally, I do not think LD is such a big issue. IG have myriad of ways to improve Ogryns in that matter for fair cost ( priest, comissar, or even primaris psyker).


A. No problems here.
Problem with Ogryns is not that they lack attacks, but that their assoults tend not to do *that* much damage, especialy against MEQ or better. Against low save enemy, lots of wounds leads to lots of casualties. Against decent (3+) or good (2+) save, not so much, and things start to fall apart. Yes, you have tons of dices to throw. Yes, you hit, and wound on decent value. Then enemy proceed to roll his saves, an unless he's terrible with rolls, most of your effort simply evaporates. Ogryns are so expensive, that in fact, per points, their power is kinda limited. You simply can not filed them with large enough numbers to tackle "hard" opponents.


Very Bulky. This is the kicker for a lot of people.
Well, very bulky makes *some* sense on Bullgryns - their shields are preety large after all ( and give them enough protection to stay alive on open filed for some time ). But for standard ones it's realy kick in the nuts.

Yvain
04-11-2014, 13:04
Problem with Ogryns is not that they lack attacks, but that their assoults tend not to do *that* much damage, especialy against MEQ or better. Against low save enemy, lots of wounds leads to lots of casualties. Against decent (3+) or good (2+) save, not so much, and things start to fall apart. Yes, you have tons of dices to throw. Yes, you hit, and wound on decent value. Then enemy proceed to roll his saves, an unless he's terrible with rolls, most of your effort simply evaporates. Ogryns are so expensive, that in fact, per points, their power is kinda limited. You simply can not filed them with large enough numbers to tackle "hard" opponents.




This is the problem basically summed up. They do not really have a role. They are ultra expensive, not very offensive, and they are not really a good tarpit because they are so fragile.

I would really like to see any fix be price reduction first and then survivability bonus. This is the bear minimum needed to make them at least acceptable. Then they need some sort of attack and a drop to bulky to bring them to the hey I would actually use this unit level.

On a side note, there is a variant of a Taurox in its kit that can be built with an open rear cabin. I won't if at one point this was suppose to be an open top variant for an assault unit that might have helped some.

Carnelian
04-11-2014, 23:27
Someone pointed out that Monstrous Infantry need their own roles. They really do. Both Ogryns and Tyranid warriors are iconic 40k units but definitely need an in-game boost to reflect their stature. The -1ap in combat would be v nice but also maybe add in some other defensive bonus or a movement bonus and we are good to go.

Baaltor
05-11-2014, 09:00
I wasn't aware that Yarrick possesses the Power of the Waaagh to keep Ugulhard's Klaw running.

I'm not sure if you're serious or not, but it's possible. First: the fluff says that he had priests 'sanctify and cleanse' the trophy before its use, which probably means they made it a working unit; second: yes, the power of the Ork WAAAGH!!! might be affecting him, because remember he's literally a legendary figure to the Orks.... And remember that fluff of him replacing his eye with a laser weapon when orks said he could kill with a look? He did it out of humour sure, but look at that fact plainly: Orks thought he could kill with a look, and then he soon developed that ability! Mork (or possibly Gork) moves in mysterious kunnin' but brutal ways

Power of belief, baby!

=Angel=
05-11-2014, 10:57
I'm not sure if you're serious or not, but it's possible. First: the fluff says that he had priests 'sanctify and cleanse' the trophy before its use, which probably means they made it a working unit; second: yes, the power of the Ork WAAAGH!!! might be affecting him, because remember he's literally a legendary figure to the Orks.... And remember that fluff of him replacing his eye with a laser weapon when orks said he could kill with a look? He did it out of humour sure, but look at that fact plainly: Orks thought he could kill with a look, and then he soon developed that ability! Mork (or possibly Gork) moves in mysterious kunnin' but brutal ways

Power of belief, baby!

Ork hydraulic claws work through the ancient mystical power of hydraulics.
Go read Cain, where ork vehicles and weaponry work fine for human operators because while crude, they are functional machines.

I reckon ogryns could use powerclaws- they are dim thugs and bashing things is their area of expertise. Ogryns are used throughout the Imperium for labour and other tasks, they are not stupid, their ability to comprehend is stunted.
An ogryn could do anything you could teach a child to do, with the added benefit that they are grown hulking monsters that can stand to take dangerous risks.
Child soldiers? Ogryn soldiers.
Child slavery? Ogryn slavery.
Could a child use a powerfist? It could and you could very easily teach them not to touch the crackling blue energy field, just like you'd teach them not to stare down their gunbarrels to see if theres any ammo left.

Powerfists don't really suit ogryns thematically tho, but I feel the same way about ornate carapace armour, so what do I know?

druchii
05-11-2014, 16:35
Powerfists don't really suit ogryns thematically tho, but I feel the same way about ornate carapace armour, so what do I know?

So they should get thunder hammers! :D

d

Scammel
05-11-2014, 17:03
I'm not sure if you're serious or not, but it's possible. First: the fluff says that he had priests 'sanctify and cleanse' the trophy before its use, which probably means they made it a working unit; second: yes, the power of the Ork WAAAGH!!! might be affecting him, because remember he's literally a legendary figure to the Orks.... And remember that fluff of him replacing his eye with a laser weapon when orks said he could kill with a look? He did it out of humour sure, but look at that fact plainly: Orks thought he could kill with a look, and then he soon developed that ability! Mork (or possibly Gork) moves in mysterious kunnin' but brutal ways

Power of belief, baby!

The collective psychic might of the Ork race makes Trukks move 1 inch faster, it isn't manually operating every Klaw in existence. It's easy to forget that Meks are actually still honest-to-Mork mechanics and there's no need to resort to the whole 'power of belief' thing for something a crude as Klaws. Contrary to popular belief, Orks cannot make empty boxes shoot bullets.

I think some folks have really high expectations as to what Ogryns should be able to achieve. They're a counter-punch unit in an army that otherwise almost completely lacks combat prowess - in my mind, they stop you from being overrun by Kroot and fight other moderate CC specialists to a standstill. They aren't for caving in the heads of Terminators close-up, nothing in the Guard army is.

Baaltor
05-11-2014, 19:26
The collective psychic might of the Ork race makes Trukks move 1 inch faster, it isn't manually operating every Klaw in existence.

No, the psychic might of the ork race makes the mere fact that the trukk is red rather than blue move faster. It can change reality based on the choice of PAINT, if you extrapolate that to any fathomable degree, the implications are profound. The fact is, even if they are decent engineers, they're still design Rube Goldberg machines that any engineer would struggle to make function, no matter their proficiency. The design philosophies of Orkoid technology are profoundly stupid, which is really saying something in setting like 40k where everyone else is already backwards.

Denny
05-11-2014, 19:37
I think some folks have really high expectations as to what Ogryns should be able to achieve. They're a counter-punch unit in an army that otherwise almost completely lacks combat prowess - in my mind, they stop you from being overrun by Kroot and fight other moderate CC specialists to a standstill. They aren't for caving in the heads of Terminators close-up, nothing in the Guard army is.

Agreed. I do think they could use a boost, but they should not be expected to take down terminators up close. Hold them up perhaps (which they're not bad at actually, except for running away to easily).

I think a leadership boost and a slight points drop would do it. Weak units they smash, tough units they tarpit.

Vipoid
05-11-2014, 19:50
I think some folks have really high expectations as to what Ogryns should be able to achieve. They're a counter-punch unit in an army that otherwise almost completely lacks combat prowess - in my mind, they stop you from being overrun by Kroot and fight other moderate CC specialists to a standstill. They aren't for caving in the heads of Terminators close-up, nothing in the Guard army is.

But, that's exactly the problem - we don't need counter-punch against things like kroot. They're barely better than a guardsman in melee, and are also one of the few units that lasguns are actually effective against. Why would we need counter-punch against them?

You say that they're not for carving up elite CC units... but that's exactly what we want a counter-assault unit for.


Agreed. I do think they could use a boost, but they should not be expected to take down terminators up close. Hold them up perhaps (which they're not bad at actually, except for running away to easily).

I think a leadership boost and a slight points drop would do it. Weak units they smash, tough units they tarpit.

But, again, weak units are something we can already deal with. What's the point of giving the Elite Ogryns a niche that our Troops already fulfil? Likewise, tarpitting can be more efficiently achieved by conscripts - who are also much, much better at bubble-wrapping units and vehicles.

Bloodknight
05-11-2014, 21:01
You say that they're not for carving up elite CC units... but that's exactly what we want a counter-assault unit for.

This. The Imperial Guard doesn't need counter-attack capabilities against squishy people, Guardsmen already solve that problem. The guard needs counter-attack vs tough close combat troops that Guardsmen can't reasonably defeat - and since the Hunting Lance got gimped with this release, Rough Riders have somewhat stopped being effective in that role and Ogryns can't fill that spot either because they get creamed by actual CC specialists thanks to the low init which means that they often lose combat and even with stubborn, they've got a 42% chance of failure, which leads to running, which leads to getting swept thanks to their Init again.
I'd try to let Ogryns fight standard Terminators, but tbh I haven't seen those on the board in ages, it's apparently "Assault Termies or bust!".

Vipoid
05-11-2014, 21:09
I'd try to let Ogryns fight standard Terminators, but tbh I haven't seen those on the board in ages, it's apparently "Assault Termies or bust!".

I've seen a lot of GK terminators, though they're even worse for Ogryns.

Scammel
05-11-2014, 21:25
You say that they're not for carving up elite CC units... but that's exactly what we want a counter-assault unit for.


I hope this is exactly the thing the designers deliberately try to stop. Guard shouldn't have anything that goes toe-to-toe with Hammernators and their ilk, it's integral to the army. Ogryns should be a reasonably-priced option to plug gaps against Spawn, Ork Boys etc, not a counter to the game's top-tier combat threats. You shoot those.


It can change reality based on the choice of PAINT, if you extrapolate that to any fathomable degree, the implications are profound.

Again, the psychic collective of the entire race makes those red Trukks move one measly inch more - these guys are not mentally bench-pressing Land Raiders. Meks may make for shoddy workers, but their mechanical know-how is very real.

Bloodknight
05-11-2014, 21:33
I've seen a lot of GK terminators, though they're even worse for Ogryns.

I meant Termi-Termies. You know, the platonic Terminator. Stormbolter+Powerfist.


Ogryns should be a reasonably-priced option to plug gaps against Spawn, Ork Boys etc, not a counter to the game's top-tier combat threats. You shoot those.

As IG, you shoot everything. That said, Ogryns get creamed by Ork Boyz and Spawn, too. If what you believe to be true is true, the Guard assault element is utterly redundant because there's always something more useful to spend points on: dudes with guns.

Scammel
05-11-2014, 21:53
If what you believe to be true is true, the Guard assault element is utterly redundant because there's always something more useful to spend points on: dudes with guns.

Not really. Ideally, full shooting armies should stand a chance at neutralising some/most threats at range but be extra vulnerable once the gap is closed - a degree of extra combat starch becomes worth more than the immediate price tag inasmuch that it prevents an auto-loss when you haven't killed enough with shooting. Again ideally, this would apply to forces at the other end of the scale, so combat armies might get access to shooting units that are not necessarily the best but are extremely valuable because they offer something the rest of the army simply cannot do at all. Guard emphatically should not have any units in the roster than can go one-on-one with the best CC units of other armies and hope to come out on top.

druchii
05-11-2014, 21:55
the Guard assault element is utterly redundant because there's always something more useful to spend points on: dudes with guns.

I think that's the point: ogryn are terrible AND redundant. So why is trying to make them not terrible and redundant a bad thing?

d

Baaltor
05-11-2014, 22:19
I hope this is exactly the thing the designers deliberately try to stop.

They are. Sort of...(Cont'd)


...The Imperial Guard doesn't need counter-attack capabilities against squishy people, Guardsmen already solve that problem.....

Practically speaking, you are 100% right. But the Ogryn as a unit are fluffwise not designed to be killing marines or Immortals/whatever. They're anti-horde, for the majority of foes they face. But I don't think I have to convince you that anti horde options are typically a waste of resources, given that most armies have a solid core (Double entendre) of anti horde units.

Actually glancing over your posts it looks like that's one of your main concerns.

But yeah, conceptually speaking, that idea is worsened even further when you consider that the allies rule makes Ogryns even LESS favourable, since you can access the marines and other anti-elite power than guard want. Maybe that's fluffy, calling in the marines to battle extreme threats, but when shrekkage is already overpriced, it's the killing blow to an already beaten horse.

Edit:
I think that's the point: ogryn are terrible AND redundant. So why is trying to make them not terrible and redundant a bad thing?

I kind of agree. They Ogryn are supposed to be a clumsy ad hoc application of simple worker caste, and in editions without allies this might've worked... if they were ever good. But now they're kind of a curio that is stitched onto the rest of the IG army, like Ratlings, Rough Riders, and penile legions. I feel like integrating them fully so that they're a vital component is somewhat betraying their origins; but on the other hand: keeping them as goofy tumours on the I.G. hasn't panned out either.

Maybe a supplement that expanded the roles of abhumans and specialists would do them better justice. Being able to base an army around Ogryn instead of applying them to an army clumsily would do them more justice. That is assuming they got buffed so they could unleash the clobbering time they deserve.

mr. peasant
05-11-2014, 22:35
In terms of fluff, I think the thing that sets Ogryns apart isn't so much their capacity to bash skulls but their ability to take a beating. And much in that respect, I think it would make sense if Ogryns had the "Feel No Pain" special rule. It's simple and it certainly helps Ogryns survive close combat long enough to reach their turn.

Another thing I'm wondering is whether this topic is talking about Ogryns as a whole or "Ogryns" as the unit separate and distinct from "Bullgryns". Certainly with the latter, I feel that Ogryns have even less of a role in the Imperial Guard as everything it's meant to do, Bullgryns do better, albeit at a higher price. It doesn't really do anything that the Bullgryn can't or that you'd rather have a different unit altogether doing.

A solution to this, I think, would be if Ogryns were downgraded from an "Elite" choice to a "Troop" choice. It would certainly fit the fluff as Ogryns - by virtue of being dirty abhumans with no special skills, training or equipment - are about the furthest thing there is to an elite unit. And in gameplay, making Ogryns regular troops would give them the "Objective Secured" special rule; making them pretty good at holding objectives (especially ones in exposed positions lacking cover). Moreover, with this role, their size and difficulty in fitting into a transport would be seen as less of a liability/negative. Moreover, by not taking up an Elite slot, Ogryns could be more acceptably used as bodyguards/meat shields for support units like Primaris Psykers.

Vipoid
05-11-2014, 23:06
I meant Termi-Termies. You know, the platonic Terminator. Stormbolter+Powerfist.

Yeah, I know what you meant. But, since you brought up terminators, I thought I'd mention the large number of GK terminators around at the moment.


I hope this is exactly the thing the designers deliberately try to stop. Guard shouldn't have anything that goes toe-to-toe with Hammernators and their ilk, it's integral to the army.

So, can Ogryns have some decent shooting then? Maybe give them relentless and let them take some heavy-duty guns?

I mean, if they're allowed to be useful in melee against the things that actually worry us, then why make them melee at all?


Ogryns should be a reasonably-priced option to plug gaps against Spawn, Ork Boys etc, not a counter to the game's top-tier combat threats. You shoot those.

But we also shoot spawn and ork boyz. And, if you want to kill either, there are far better ways to do it than with Ogryns.

Really, I don't see why Orgyns are even in the army. If they're not going to do anything meaningful in combat, then what was the point of including them in the first place?

WomBone
06-11-2014, 01:05
No, the psychic might of the ork race makes the mere fact that the trukk is red rather than blue move faster. It can change reality based on the choice of PAINT, if you extrapolate that to any fathomable degree, the implications are profound. The fact is, even if they are decent engineers, they're still design Rube Goldberg machines that any engineer would struggle to make function, no matter their proficiency. The design philosophies of Orkoid technology are profoundly stupid, which is really saying something in setting like 40k where everyone else is already backwards.
dont forget that Blue makes others to believe a looted trukk that was previously theirs is the meks now and Yellow used to mean that rokkits explode bigger.

Their belief also makes their guns work. I cant remember the book, but it has a passage that says that inquisitors have tried to get them to work, but had them fall apart, or jam.. or work, without knowing how.


Onto how to fix Ogryns? They need either FnP or a way to get an inv on them without being a Bullgryn.

Oh and either longer range on the Rippa's or a way to get the ML's again, without being a bullgryn.


At 5+ AS and Range 12", they will die to bolterfire before they can do damage.

Baaltor
06-11-2014, 01:43
I mean, if they're allowed to be useful in melee against the things that actually worry us, then why make them melee at all?


You're worried about hammernators? With guard? I might be missing something, but that sounds a bit nonesense, since Guard have nothing to make the Assault terminators worth considering.

But we also shoot spawn and ork boyz. And, if you want to kill either, there are far better ways to do it than with Ogryns.


Really, I don't see why Orgyns are even in the army. If they're not going to do anything meaningful in combat, then what was the point of including them in the first place?

I know it's a bit loaded, but like I said above: not every army is (or rather was) intended to have an answer to everything in every medium. Ogryns are supposed to be an awkward solution to the problems the I.G. list faces.

I mean, they would be if they were any good.

I was going to say they don't belong with heavy weapons unless they're lobots, but then I realised praetorians are a thing already.


In terms of fluff, I think the thing that sets Ogryns apart isn't so much their capacity to bash skulls but their ability to take a beating. And much in that respect, I think it would make sense if Ogryns had the "Feel No Pain" special rule. It's simple and it certainly helps Ogryns survive close combat long enough to reach their turn....

...A solution to this, I think, would be if Ogryns were downgraded from an "Elite" choice to a "Troop" choice. It would certainly fit the fluff as Ogryns - by virtue of being dirty abhumans with no special skills, training or equipment - are about the furthest thing there is to an elite unit. And in gameplay, making Ogryns regular troops would give them the "Objective Secured" special rule; making them pretty good at holding objectives (especially ones in exposed positions lacking cover). Moreover, with this role, their size and difficulty in fitting into a transport would be seen as less of a liability/negative. Moreover, by not taking up an Elite slot, Ogryns could be more acceptably used as bodyguards/meat shields for support units like Primaris Psykers.

Yeah, I think you might be onto something there with the reorganisation of Ogryn into the list. As it stands now they aren't really 'elites' but because of the FOC's limitations (which did themselves get much better in 7th) but they definitely are too specialised to be elsewhere. I don't like the idea of them being troops because... they're idiots, but then again I take less issue to it than many other army options, so I'm not going to complain. On the other hand, that might be a good way to make bone 'eads an important upgrade, if they're needed to make them act more intelligently. Actually the Ogryn used to have more limitations on them that could be alleviated by characters, maybe adding some of those back in might be a license to make them more viable.

Also I don't like the T5 because that's crazy high, and they need a weapon to make them S5 previously. FNP would be a lot more managable and cheaper IMHO.

Denny
06-11-2014, 10:19
You're worried about hammernators? With guard? I might be missing something, but that sounds a bit nonesense, since Guard have nothing to make the Assault terminators worth considering.

This. I don't play guard but I play against them a lot. Elite Close combat units tend to be a bit of a waste of time (except from smashing tanks, but krak and melta do that better in combat anyway).

I also agree that guard don't need a 'elite' combat unit, any more than Space Marines need a cheap hoard unit, Eldar need an armour 14 tank, or orks need acurate snipers. :shifty:

Vipoid
06-11-2014, 10:28
You're worried about hammernators? With guard? I might be missing something, but that sounds a bit nonesense, since Guard have nothing to make the Assault terminators worth considering.

Not Hammernators, no. But there are other elite melee units that concern me.

WarsmithGarathor94
06-11-2014, 10:38
Not Hammernators, no. But there are other elite melee units that concern me.

Not meaning to sound like an ass but these elite cc units it should be hard to counter in melee

Bloodknight
06-11-2014, 11:22
The issue at hand isn't that we really want Ogryns to wipe the floor with elite melee units. We want them on an even-ish footing (they do cost a ton, too), so that, as IG players, we can shake up our army builds a bit.
As it is, the CC element of the IG is worthless, and quite obviously so. You don't really need it if you manage to have your dudes broken quickly enough that the rest can just shoot the melee people once they killed a squad. That's much more points effective than using own IG melee units to make the game more interesting. It's more a question of internal balance in the book than wanting an uber unit to rule in CC. It's about viable options, that's all. Sure, every codex has a few "codex corpses", as we call them in German, but for some reason, in the IG, it's always been the metahuman element, the 40K stuff (as opposed to the space soviets that the rest of the book is) that sucked badly, although the fixes are quite obvious. I really wonder what the thought process behind that is. If it's "Horses, Halflings and Ogres suck, and Enginseers, too", that guy should probably not be writing the IG army list, because he runs a big risk of making them just a bland carbon copy of a 1940s army with an SRBM launcher on top.

Vipoid
06-11-2014, 11:31
Not meaning to sound like an ass but these elite cc units it should be hard to counter in melee

Well quite, hence why we'd like our own elite* melee units to actually be good in melee.

I mean, Ogryns are far from cheap to begin with, so I don't think it's an unreasonable ask they they be able to hold their own against equal points of melee units from other armies. If they can't, then why bother including them? What's the point of an expensive counter-assault unit that can't actually counter assaults?

*Elite in terms of cost, anyway.

Denny
06-11-2014, 11:38
Sure, every codex has a few "codex corpses", as we call them in German, but for some reason, in the IG, it's always been the metahuman element, the 40K stuff (as opposed to the space soviets that the rest of the book is) that sucked badly, although the fixes are quite obvious. I really wonder what the thought process behind that is.

I suspect its in part because Ogryns don't fit into the army that well.

Imagine if Ogryns were a decent combat unit (we can argue about exactly what that means, but we'll assume they fit into a 'decent, but not OP' level for the sake of argument). They would then be stuck in a codex with no other decent combat units.

You still couldn’t build a combat army out of them, because there is no support from the rest of the army, and engaging units in combat would result in making them impossible to shoot at and grant additional coversaves.

You could use them counter charge I suppose, but wouldn't your opponent just target the Ogryns and take them out? It’s not like there are any other similar threats you could use for target saturation, as the rest of the army is either tanks or toughness 3. Plus, even if they rocked in combat, you’d probably still be better off just taking more guns as it fits into the army design better.

Within the context of the army I think its always going to be hard to make Ogryns work.

OuroborosTriumphant
06-11-2014, 12:16
There is a thing units can be good at other than shooting or assault; durability. I think, at the right price point, this is the niche Ogryn ought to fill; not a unit that cuts through the enemy like a knife through butter, but one that can plod towards the enemy lines, soaking up fire or can hold a dangerous close combat unit up for a decent amount of time (and that should definitely be the defining trait of a Guard close combat unit; holding actions to stem the tide long enough for the big guns to do their work).

In light of this view, I think what Ogryns need is just to be cheaper, so they can pack more bodies into the unit and so expending them to slow an elite melee unit down, rather than stop it, feels like a decent trade. If you want them to be slightly buffer per dude you could also give them Feel No Pain. I reckon 30 points per Ogryn and 40 points per Bullgryn would be a decently balanced price point, or 35 per points per Ogryn and 45 points per Bullgryn if you added FNP.

Vipoid
06-11-2014, 13:46
You make a lot of good points.

Though, I think a melee unit could work if it didn't require so much support. Aside from their rather poor melee ability, Ogryns also suffer from needing multiple support elements to function:
- They have poor Ld, so you need a character to babysit them.
- They're slow and have dubious survivability in the open - so you have to either give them a transport (which limits you to a tiny squad and means you have to disembark the turn before you want to assault), or you footslog them (and hope that they don't get shot to bits and that they'll be able to waddle over to where they're needed, before the enemy has eaten half your army).

If they were more self-contained in these regards, then they may work better within a shooty army. But, I don't think you could really address these without also changing the core concept.


There is a thing units can be good at other than shooting or assault; durability. I think, at the right price point, this is the niche Ogryn ought to fill; not a unit that cuts through the enemy like a knife through butter, but one that can plod towards the enemy lines, soaking up fire or can hold a dangerous close combat unit up for a decent amount of time (and that should definitely be the defining trait of a Guard close combat unit; holding actions to stem the tide long enough for the big guns to do their work).

But:

a) why would the enemy dedicate firepower towards them? No one is threatened by a unit of fat blokes with naff-all range lumbering towards them. Or, maybe you'll instead have a really tiny (and hence, less threatening and less survivable) unit in a transport - when your opponent merely has time for a small tea party, whilst they move up, disembark and get ready to maybe assault sometime with in the next 4 turns. My point is, unless you have the speed to put your opponent against the clock, then they can leisurely shoot at other targets until the Ogryns get close.

b) How are they going to tie up enemy melee units? Is the enemy charging them? If not, do you really expect them to plod over to where they're needed in any reasonable time-frame? I mean, if the enemy unit has already eaten half your army by the time your tarpit gets there, it probably wasn't a good use of points.

c) Again, why would we not just use conscripts for this? Conscripts are very cheap, and can bubble-wrap our units - forcing enemy melee units to charge them, rather than more vital units/vehicles behind them. This is something Ogryns just can't match - because the best they can offer is some slow, overpriced damage-control.

cuda1179
06-11-2014, 17:19
Personally, I LOVE the idea of Ogryn. GW simply fails to get them quite right in every edition I play.

3rd edition Ogryn were capped at 5 to a squad and were bolter bait with toughness 4. They had a cool option of trading in the gun for a pair of +2 strength CCW's. I converted a whole unit, now without rules. :(

3.5 edition was cool with the addition of the Bonehead with access to wargear.


Ogryns need to walk a fine line between being rules bland/bloated while not being so expensive per model that they are ignored for other units.

I'd say, keep them as they are, give them stubborn, bring back the option for a set of +2 strength CCW's, drop their points by 7 per model, and eliminate the sergent tax.

Chem-Dog
06-11-2014, 18:10
And so are tank-shocks, panic tests, psychic shrieks, and so on. But actyally, I do not think LD is such a big issue. IG have myriad of ways to improve Ogryns in that matter for fair cost ( priest, comissar, or even primaris psyker).

I haven't deployed any Variety of Ogryn without a babysitter for a very long time. Initially it was a Commissar, for old school fluff reasons, but eventually dropped him because of his tendency to BLAM the Bonehead at the first sign of a failed Ld test. I now use Primaris Psykers, who have a reasonable chance of generating a defensive power that helps the big guys survive but, ironically, the Psyker tends to most of the heavy lifting in Melee.
Specifically, when mentioning pinning, I was thinking about that long march across the table into the teeth of enemy guns - a highly visible unit that is pretty vulnerable to fire - a turn standing about can be fatal.



Problem with Ogryns is not that they lack attacks, but that their assoults tend not to do *that* much damage, especialy against MEQ or better. Against low save enemy, lots of wounds leads to lots of casualties. Against decent (3+) or good (2+) save, not so much, and things start to fall apart. Yes, you have tons of dices to throw. Yes, you hit, and wound on decent value. Then enemy proceed to roll his saves, an unless he's terrible with rolls, most of your effort simply evaporates. Ogryns are so expensive, that in fact, per points, their power is kinda limited. You simply can not filed them with large enough numbers to tackle "hard" opponents.

Couldn't agree more. It's not an inherent flaw in the number of attacks though.
Illustrating the point, this week I charged a squad of Bullgryn (with mauls) accompanied by a Psyker into a Cronos Pain Engine - The Psyker (who was incredibly buffed - endurance, warp speed & warp surge) was the only model to cause any damage, none of the Ogryns' attacks got through the thing's combined armour and FNP saves. And that's a unit that hits a lot harder than regular Ogryn.


Someone pointed out that Monstrous Infantry need their own roles. They really do. Both Ogryns and Tyranid warriors are iconic 40k units but definitely need an in-game boost to reflect their stature. The -1ap in combat would be v nice but also maybe add in some other defensive bonus or a movement bonus and we are good to go.

If it were an Ap modifier -1 for bulky and -2 for V.Bulky wouldn't be all that terrible, however it wouldn't really solve the inherent problem we're discussing as basic Ogryn would still only be sporting Ap 5 or 6. Basic rending would solve the issue better, that or some kind of Smash-lite effect rolled into the Bulky rule.

WomBone
06-11-2014, 18:48
If it were an Ap modifier -1 for bulky and -2 for V.Bulky wouldn't be all that terrible, however it wouldn't really solve the inherent problem we're discussing as basic Ogryn would still only be sporting Ap 5 or 6. Basic rending would solve the issue better, that or some kind of Smash-lite effect rolled into the Bulky rule.

you want to give Tyranid gribblies -2ap? They wreck enough as is.

Baaltor
06-11-2014, 23:17
I haven't deployed any Variety of Ogryn without a babysitter for a very long time. Initially it was a Commissar, for old school fluff reasons, but eventually dropped him because of his tendency to BLAM the Bonehead at the first sign of a failed Ld test. I now use Primaris Psykers, who have a reasonable chance of generating a defensive power that helps the big guys survive but, ironically, the Psyker tends to most of the heavy lifting in Melee.
Specifically, when mentioning pinning, I was thinking about that long march across the table into the teeth of enemy guns - a highly visible unit that is pretty vulnerable to fire - a turn standing about can be fatal.

No comment, but that's so cool and I wish I could play against you.


Illustrating the point, this week I charged a squad of Bullgryn (with mauls) accompanied by a Psyker into a Cronos Pain Engine - The Psyker (who was incredibly buffed - endurance, warp speed & warp surge) was the only model to cause any damage, none of the Ogryns' attacks got through the thing's combined armour and FNP saves. And that's a unit that hits a lot harder than regular Ogryn.

I don't really think those results are different than they should be conceptually. I mean the you charged a dreadnaught with super heavy infantry who aren't equipped for the job. Granted the Chronos isn't a CC MC listening to AC:DC whilst putting out TLC, and it benefits wholly from the same MC 'ignore armour' rules than gives the Riptide 'Power Boots'. I'm not going to argue that there's not a circus of simplicity inside the ruleset here, but I don't think Ogryn should be beating down dreadnaughts/Wraiths/Helbrutes/Chronoi(?).



If it were an Ap modifier -1 for bulky and -2 for V.Bulky wouldn't be all that terrible, however it wouldn't really solve the inherent problem we're discussing as basic Ogryn would still only be sporting Ap 5 or 6. Basic rending would solve the issue better, that or some kind of Smash-lite effect rolled into the Bulky rule.

That's a problem for all of 40k, not just Shrek.



3rd edition Ogryn were capped at 5 to a squad and were bolter bait with toughness 4....

Would this still be a problem with 3 wounds, or FNP? I'm pretty sure they only had 2 wounds



They had a cool option of trading in the gun for a pair of +2 strength CCW's. I converted a whole unit, now without rules. :(

That's so cool. I'm sorry for your loss; we've all been there.


I'd say, keep them as they are, give them stubborn, bring back the option for a set of +2 strength CCW's, drop their points by 7 per model, and eliminate the sergent tax.

I'd rather see some slight stat nerfs too, and drive the price down into the -10 range, but I mostly agree otherwise. Also the stubborn thingmakes sense too, I bet the loss of it was an ogresight [pause for groans] since they're supposed to have low 'Ld.' and 'I' due too their poor situational awareness, but at the same time have stubborn because they don't understand enough to know what's happening.


You make a lot of good points.


I'm sorry.


Not Hammernators, no. But there are other elite melee units that concern me.

I doubt it. Elite melee units, are largely speaking not a concern, only the really low end ones are a problem for you. The heavy infantry aspect is more of a problem for guard and hordes in general. Things like Assault marines, Scorpions, Nobs, chosen, and berserkers are the biggest threat to guard blobs because they have the numbers to deal damage, the size to be more maneouvrable and the resilience to be unstoppable by their prey.

Woah, that's a list of subpar units if I've ever seen it. Is anyone else noticing large swathes of the game are unviable, and hence making things that prey on them unviable?


I also agree that guard don't need a 'elite' combat unit, any more than Space Marines need a cheap hoard unit, Eldar need an armour 14 tank, or orks need acurate snipers. :shifty:

Yeah, I totally agree. But I feel that this part of the game's been severely damaged by the allies rule. I say that as someone who benefits enormously from it (Chaos/Daemons/L&tD), and loves its inclusion, but the fact is that competition can corrupt a good thing.


We want them on an even-ish footing (they do cost a ton, too), so that, as IG players, we can shake up our army builds a bit.

Sorry, but I really don't want to see that. Anti-elite units are totally out of alignment with what an Ogryn is in my vision of 40K.


Sure, every codex has a few "codex corpses", as we call them in German...

http://youtu.be/VoW9czgQBqE?t=2s

Vipoid
06-11-2014, 23:30
I doubt it. Elite melee units, are largely speaking not a concern, only the really low end ones are a problem for you. The heavy infantry aspect is more of a problem for guard and hordes in general. Things like Assault marines, Scorpions, Nobs, chosen, and berserkers are the biggest threat to guard blobs because they have the numbers to deal damage, the size to be more maneouvrable and the resilience to be unstoppable by their prey.

I've also had problems dealing with Chaos Bikers (with attached biker-Lord), TWC (with attached thunderwolf-lord) and Grey Hunters (in a Stormwolf, with attached SC). But, maybe it's just because my IG army is small at the moment, so I can't optimise it as well as I'd like.

In any case, I do wonder if our definitions might be a bit confused - e.g. I would describe terminators and nobz as 'heavy infantry', but the others you mentioned I'd just describe as 'infantry'. I think we need to synchronise our terms. :D



Woah, that's a list of subpar units if I've ever seen it. Is anyone else noticing large swathes of the game are unviable, and hence making things that prey on them unviable?

Hmm, that's an interesting (if depressing) point. Although, I suspect Ogryns would still need a buff just to successfully prey on the sub-par units you mentioned. :shifty:

Baaltor
07-11-2014, 00:46
I'm not going to lie: I don't actually know the real world definition for heavy infantry for sure. 'Heavy' is a very relative term that seems to be applied to pretty nominally armed infantry. I guess it sort of means 'fully equipped', but refers to their mobility (slower), tactics (hammer), and logistics (more upkeep) more than anything.

By my definitions:
Light: Guardians, most Aspect Warriors, Gretchin,
Heavy infantry: Storm troopers, Guardsmen, Scorpions
Superheavy infantry: Space Marines
Dreadnaught

Ogryn are in a class on their own. Obviously some of the light infantry in that list are better than heavy, or even superheavies in some cases.



...Although, I suspect Ogryns would still need a buff just to successfully prey on the sub-par units you mentioned. :shifty:

Oh yeah that's a given, they're absolutely terrible. They're the worst thing I've seen since spawn, and are about as bad 1K sons; AKA: the things that were worse at doing their job than the equivalent amount of regular dudes... from two editions ago.

Ghungo
07-11-2014, 02:58
For a role id like to see ogryns as body guards. Dedicated melee that's decent at holding up MC and various melee Death Star threats. If someone drop pods thier chapter master with terminator armour and shield eternal unit into my guards. I don't expect my guards to kill him even with shooting frf srf and a bunch of specials but i hope I could tie him up a few rounds with a bullgryn squad. If I just dumped 400 points into a bullgryn melee tarpit with priest. I kinda expect them to be a decent tarpit in melee and they are not. It's all well and good they can have str7ap4 melee weapons but I play guard and have enough autocannons to know a few melee hits from a slow short ranges unit isn't going to add much help.

Ogryns/bullgryns need
5 point drop
FNP
Furious charge
Bulky

mr. peasant
07-11-2014, 03:22
For a role id like to see ogryns as body guards. Dedicated melee that's decent at holding up MC and various melee Death Star threats. If someone drop pods thier chapter master with terminator armour and shield eternal unit into my guards. I don't expect my guards to kill him even with shooting frf srf and a bunch of specials but i hope I could tie him up a few rounds with a bullgryn squad. If I just dumped 400 points into a bullgryn melee tarpit with priest. I kinda expect them to be a decent tarpit in melee and they are not. It's all well and good they can have str7ap4 melee weapons but I play guard and have enough autocannons to know a few melee hits from a slow short ranges unit isn't going to add much help.

Ogryns/bullgryns need
5 point drop
FNP
Furious charge
Bulky

I think the above could work well for Bullgryns. Though FNP in and of itself would give Ogryns the comparable survivability of a 4+ armour save (actually, it should be slightly better) and Bullgryns (assuming they're benefiting from Slab shields or Brute shields) almost the survivability of a 2+ armour save.

However, I feel that Ogryns (the unit) doesn't need quite as many changes. What it needs most at the moment is to have a separate role and function distinct from Bullgryns. As such, I feel that it would make sense that they be designed to be used defensively while the Bullgryns are the aggressive assault/counter-assault unit. I say, FNP (and Bulky as it wouldn't make sense if Bullgryns get it and Ogryns don't) and moving them to Troops - giving them "Objective secured" instead. Which would make them pretty decent, albeit expensive, objective sitters.

Ironbone
07-11-2014, 11:47
3.5 edition was cool with the addition of the Bonehead with access to wargear.
Yeah, especialy when there was like zero use of this feature :p, because -literaly- anything that could make any mattering diffrence in their performance wasn't on "you can take this" list.

ehlijen
07-11-2014, 22:45
Yeah, especialy when there was like zero use of this feature :p, because -literaly- anything that could make any mattering diffrence in their performance wasn't on "you can take this" list.

There was the medallion crimson (first ID wound loses ID trait), but that was about the single most useful thing by far an ogryn could get from the armoury, yes.

Wildcard84
10-11-2014, 21:27
I don't think you can or should look the usefullness of a unit solely By its staying power on the field. T5 with 3 wounds on a 40mm base model is not bad at all, no matter the save.

The biggest problem is -as has been pointed out - the unviability of their current /"intended" role in the army.Same goes for both of ogryns 'n bullgryns.

If someone could do the math and point me right (or wrong) about the only thing 'gryns need: Rending i could lay my mind to rest :)

Currently they struggle / or have no means to hurt a lot of units that are intended or are generally used in offensive mode:
- Monstrous Creatures
- Walkers (of most types) (because of av12+)
- 2+ saves
- melee oriented 3+ save squads
- AV12+ vehicles

Giving Rending to 'gryns would give 'em a purpose and a lucky fighting change but not 'win button' against all of the above

IMHO its the most relevant "fix" the 'gryns could possibly get..

Vipoid
10-11-2014, 22:06
I don't think you can or should look the usefullness of a unit solely By its staying power on the field. T5 with 3 wounds on a 40mm base model is not bad at all, no matter the save.

It takes 27 bolter shots to kill 3 marines (42pts)
It takes half that amount to kill an Ogryn (40pts)

Not really seeing the durability here.

Chem-Dog
11-11-2014, 15:00
No comment, but that's so cool and I wish I could play against you.

Because I ran an Ogryn Commissar or because I do dumb stuff like charge them into a Cronos?!


I don't really think those results are different than they should be conceptually. I mean the you charged a dreadnaught with super heavy infantry who aren't equipped for the job. Granted the Chronos isn't a CC MC listening to AC:DC whilst putting out TLC, and it benefits wholly from the same MC 'ignore armour' rules than gives the Riptide 'Power Boots'. I'm not going to argue that there's not a circus of simplicity inside the ruleset here, but I don't think Ogryn should be beating down dreadnaughts/Wraiths/Helbrutes/Chronoi(?).

My point was more to illustrate how fundamentally pointless any +Strength enhancements are for Ogryn without a way of dealing with Ap. If, at S7 they did nothing, what point is S6?

At this point I'd be happy to give Ogryn the option to wear carapace and give them D6 Ap.

Yvain
11-11-2014, 23:20
It takes 27 bolter shots to kill 3 marines (42pts)
It takes half that amount to kill an Ogryn (40pts)

Not really seeing the durability here.

I never really crunched the numbers on this. That is pretty sad. Even with FNP it takes less the bolter shots than verse the Marines. Damn Ogryns need so much help.

Lord General Armstrong
12-11-2014, 07:45
I still think they'd be effective if they:
- Dropped the sergeant tax
- Reduced them to 35 points per model
- Reduced them back to just Bulky
- Gave them Rending/Smash

Wildcard84
12-11-2014, 16:21
It takes 27 bolter shots to kill 3 marines (42pts)
It takes half that amount to kill an Ogryn (40pts)

Not really seeing the durability here.

Can't argue with that if the math is right :( tbh i always did rely on the turds that insisted that the ogryns were durable..

how naive of me :) ..

About the Smash vs Rending: Smash imo gives straight out ap2 plus change to make one attack with 2d6 penetration (or whatever the bonus was).. This would be huge, eating away terminators and marines like crazy.. Also iirc, 2d6 averages 7 (could be wrong tho), thus making ogryn armor penetration rolls 12 on average.

Rending on the other hand wouldn't make it automatically so that you would eat through any save but with the volume of attacks it would make em more of a threat with those random rending hits. Rending on the armor penetration with str5 would mean that you would still need lots of luck against av 13 or 14, but not sure about the math if rending or smash would be better here.. i have a hunch tho that it would be rending..

Ironbone
12-11-2014, 19:42
About the Smash vs Rending: Smash imo gives straight out ap2 plus change to make one attack with 2d6 penetration (or whatever the bonus was).. This would be huge, eating away terminators and marines like crazy.. Also iirc, 2d6 averages 7 (could be wrong tho), thus making ogryn armor penetration rolls 12 on average.
Well, actuall smash "super attack" allows to re-roll failed penetration rolls (glancing hits do not count as failed), it do not give armourbane (2k6 pen), nor any other bonuses outside this re-roll and doubled Str.


Rending on the other hand wouldn't make it automatically so that you would eat through any save but with the volume of attacks it would make em more of a threat with those random rending hits. Rending on the armor penetration with str5 would mean that you would still need lots of luck against av 13 or 14, but not sure about the math if rending or smash would be better here.. i have a hunch tho that it would be rending..
Rending is IMHO good fit, as it somewhat helps in area where Ogryns are realy luckluster - dealing with good save targets - marines, bikes, monsters, terminators, etc.

Yvain
14-11-2014, 15:25
Well, actuall smash "super attack" allows to re-roll failed penetration rolls (glancing hits do not count as failed), it do not give armourbane (2k6 pen), nor any other bonuses outside this re-roll and doubled Str.


Rending is IMHO good fit, as it somewhat helps in area where Ogryns are realy luckluster - dealing with good save targets - marines, bikes, monsters, terminators, etc.


Looking at the numbers, smash style attack would give around 1 wound vs +3 and +2 and rending 3 wounds dropping to 2.5.

This is significantly less than I though. Honestly, rending is better while not even going to OP levels. I think I am cool with rending buff


So rending, plus FNP, and minus 5 points seems to be the consensus. I feel like looking at these numbers I would be okay taking them. I wold defiantly be down for bullgryns then if they were dropped to just 40 with the same bonuses. Maybe reduce the maul price to 5 like stormshields/hammer upgrade.

Haravikk
14-11-2014, 16:57
So as a summary: price down by 5 points, LD up by 2, change Very Bulky to Bulky and let the unit champion carry something scary like a powerfist or at least a power axe.
I agree on a points reduction and more equipment for the champion (or even just make the unit more painful in melee in general) but I don't know about Leadership and Very Bulky. I think Very Bulky is the right size for them, but that perhaps it would make sense for a single character to be able to squeeze in with them, i.e - a single non-Bulky Independent Character can ride in a transport with them for free.

Leadership I'm unsure of, low Leadership feels fine for me, but you're right they shouldn't be so easy to break, not sure if that makes sense? I'd prefer to see them get bonuses against certain effects, for example maybe the Bonehead gives them Stubborn, and all Ogryns/Bulgryns get a +1 Leadership for each additional Ogryn/Bulgryn in the unit, so even a unit of 3 would have +2 Leadership, but casualties could quickly ruin them if things don't go their way.

This isn't really specific to regular Ogryns though, maybe their Ripper guns should become a bit more powerful?

I definitely agree it was a bit disappointing for them; I had hoped the Imperial Guard codex would do a better job of distinguishing all the core units from each other into clear roles; even if some overlapped a bit, as long as they had differences for flavour or fun it would be great, but Ogryns just feel a bit lost at the moment.

Althenian Armourlost
15-11-2014, 02:25
Nothing other than (a 5) point reduction per model for ogryns, 10 ppm reduction for kitted out bullgryns.

Baaltor
15-11-2014, 04:55
Because I ran an Ogryn Commissar or because I do dumb stuff like charge them into a Cronos?!

You make a good case for the second, but I meant the first.


My point was more to illustrate how fundamentally pointless any +Strength enhancements are for Ogryn without a way of dealing with Ap. If, at S7 they did nothing, what point is S6?

I misread the context. I was thinking of regular ogryn, instead of bullgryns, who're essentially (albeit ogrepriced) cut-rate TH/SS Terminators.


I agree on a points reduction and more equipment for the champion (or even just make the unit more painful in melee in general) but I don't know about Leadership and Very Bulky. I think Very Bulky is the right size for them, but that perhaps it would make sense for a single character to be able to squeeze in with them, i.e - a single non-Bulky Independent Character can ride in a transport with them for free.

Leadership I'm unsure of, low Leadership feels fine for me, but you're right they shouldn't be so easy to break, not sure if that makes sense? I'd prefer to see them get bonuses against certain effects, for example maybe the Bonehead gives them Stubborn, and all Ogryns/Bulgryns get a +1 Leadership for each additional Ogryn/Bulgryn in the unit, so even a unit of 3 would have +2 Leadership, but casualties could quickly ruin them if things don't go their way.

I'm not really sure I can say this seriously, but: I would resent having to cut out flavourful things like how Ogryn are inconvenient to use, and have Ld. problems. The thing is 95% of the game's moved on from stuff like that, so leaving limitations in the book just makes Ogryns face a handicap.



This isn't really specific to regular Ogryns though, maybe their Ripper guns should become a bit more powerful?

Yes. I don't care what. They're the size of heavy bolters, right? I think the guns are so Fischer-Priced that they're just inflatted shotguns. The guns should be like almost vehicle calibre. Like 6 shots, or roll 1d3 'hits' since they 'can't possibly miss'.

Commissar Davis
16-11-2014, 19:03
My two credit worth.

Going from the fluff a single Ogryn with a big pole id enough to bog down a unit of Aspect warriors (Priests of Mars).

Ogyrns are what you send Terminators to deal with, they should be roughing up Tacticals/Assault squads in combat and putting the pain on things like a Carifex in units of 3+.

1> A big points reduction (30ppm fits imo), they should not be costing anything like a Terminator.
2> Feel No Pain if kept at current points or It Will Not Die if at current points.
3> Shock Mauls seem to be common enough to give to most local security, I see no reason why these should not be allowable to Ogryns, also add in Brute shields if these are taken.
4> Rending in combat.
5> Make the ripper gun a template weapon.
6> Not v.Bulky.
7> Bone Head access to Bullgryn armory.

Everything else leave as is.