PDA

View Full Version : Beating magic heavy Undead legions



EvanM
31-10-2014, 14:31
Just played a game against my friend, his list was basically:

casket of souls
heirotitan
mortis engine
corpse cart
30 ghouls
30 skeletons
30 skeletons
some dogs
3 varghiests
blender vampire lord with lvl 4 lore of death (one of them had the book that lets you hold onto power/dispel dice)
blender vampire lord with lvl 4 lore of vampires
2 necros lvl 1

So what do you do against this?

because he CONSISTENTLY had 12 dice in every phase, both his and mine, I barely got any spells of whatsoever (usually through IF), and he destroyed me. I shot his troops to crap and he brought them back, he used the casket on warmachines.

There was one round where I did banishment, handgunners, huntsmen, pistoliers, helblaster, and luminark's laser beam into a unit of 30 skeletons, killing 29 of them(only a single fricken guy left), only to have the unit resurrected back up to 23 guys by the next turn.

ewar
31-10-2014, 14:59
I think your target priority was all wrong. Your shooting should be aimed at:

- casket (if he is sensible this will be well hidden, but a steam tank can get an angle on it normally, it only has 3 wounds and no save, though it is T10)
- titan
- mortis engine

Don't waste time shooting at undead infantry, remove the support units which enable such magic domination, combined with banishment you shouldn't have any problem taking off the titan and engine. You should have plenty of 1+ save stuff, which is more mobile. Put these into the flank of the enemy and pin the vamps in place with cheap unit in the front so they can't make way. Also, I don't personally bother trying to block the raising spells, unless it's raise dead. The list doesn't have any ethereals so you should easily be able to control the movement phase.

Also make sure your opponent isn't moving the corpse cart at more than 4" per turn... it can be quite difficult to keep this close to the battle when everything else is marching forward. Did either of the vampires have ward saves? You can just target them with cannon balls - they have a 50% chance to fail LOS when hit by 3 cannons. I've lost my hierophant enough times this way to know it's actually pretty easy to do. Without the vamps he has literally nothing in the list.

EvanM
31-10-2014, 15:42
My cannon died turn one, I definitely need to take 2 cannons next game.

I don't use the tank.

my magic was shut down nearly entirely, I was only shooting at skeletons because I didn't have another target, and I literally almost destroyed a unit of 30 skellies in a single round, missing only by a single model!

My demigryphs killed 10 black knights in one round of combat but they got screamed at before they could go after the casket of souls.

I ended up not able to kill any of the buff units or his vamps so I lost, I will alter my list for next time.

MasterSplinter
31-10-2014, 16:08
You are an empire player. Just field Karl Franz Ascendant and you will be fine. I wouldn´t hesitate to do that against that list.

Ewar has the points i can think of otherwise.

EvanM
31-10-2014, 17:06
If i field KFA then he fields Nagash (might be our next game) but i actually do like that matchup, i can fly around killing stuff.

MasterSplinter
31-10-2014, 17:45
Yes, sorry, my other post was kind of cynical because your portraied situation is excactly of what i fear will become of whfb.

We got one side way op with 12 pd per round. What are you going to do? Of course play Karl Franz which is even so pure cheese. Maybe in the end it evens out somewhere.
I predict that you won´t be in a strong disadvantage anymore when he fields nagash, as KF and Nagash should equalize each other and he won´t have any points left for his other mages (at least at the mark 0f 2000-2500 points). He can still bring a casket and titan of course, but if you have two level ones or something left these powerdice shouldnt be that efficient anymore. What point size do you play?

EvanM
31-10-2014, 17:55
The game I described above was a 3k pt game, but if he brings nagash and I bring karl we will probably do 3500 or 4000.

This is simply because we like to bring toys. So both of our armies contain like 1000 ish points of stuff that usually would be cut from the list to make it efficient.

Id also like to point out that yesterdays game I took a fluffy list, his was probably tournament worthy. I learned a lot, but if i couldnt kill his mortis engine and casket of souls then I was never going to be able to win. Like for instance my list had a guy with pigeon bombs (that i forgot to even shoot) and a witch hunter (who ended up helping save my halberdiers from curse of years but doing nothing else)

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
01-11-2014, 21:03
The trick to beating vampires is crumble. Direct attacks against skeletons, wrack up loads of CR, vampire goes poof. 30 skeletons really isn't enough.

Outside of vampires and magic he really doesn't have much of anything. The vargs will eat your warmachines if left unmolested but that's about it.

Against the casket, make sure to keep everything within IP and BSB range. The casket doesn't do **** all against rerollable LD9 or 10. Protect your warmachines with the bubble too, they'll be his first target.

What was your list?

EvanM
01-11-2014, 21:51
So i had:

Arch lector with AoMI, GW, dawnstone (mistake, should have had crown of command)
lvl 4 light with van horstmanns speculum, lvl 1 with dispel scroll.
witch hunter
BSB with 2+ armor, luckstone, and fear causing sword
master engineer

57 halberdiers with 2 detachments of 25 swordsmen
12 handgunners

10 reiksguard
10 reiksguard
3 demigryphs
1 great cannon
5 pistoliers

luminark
hurricanum
helblaster

what happened was he used the casket to take out my warmachines, constant spam of invoke made ALL of my shooting do absolutely nothing by the end of the game, in fact during one turn i fired: helblaster for a dozen hits, 10 huntsmen, 12 handgunners, a S5 banishment for 14 hits, 5 pistoliers, and the luminark's lazer beam ALL into a single unit of 30 skeletons....... AND I KILLED 29!!!!!!!!!!! omg, so yeah in his next turn he invoked them all the way back to 24 models. A single more skeleton left. omg.

also, I got literally no spells off. I got 2 banishments, 2 luminark laserbeams, and thats it for the entire game of 6 turns.

in combat my knights fought his dogs and vargheists and his ghouls all game, like 6 rounds of combat.


anyway IF i had been able to pull off the shooting i could destroy that skeleton unit and start shooting a helblaster into a lone vamp or using banishment on the lone vamp that would have been leftover.

Also, if I had been able to get even just 2 good augment spells off during the key close combats, i would have popped his other vamp units.

ugh it was annoying, I think he might have been playing the casket of souls wrong, that or he channeled with all 4 wizards at once on one of his turns.

MOMUS
02-11-2014, 08:10
Ewar has it right, you were fighting the wrong fight.
Everything but the infantry is easy points and be thankful he didn't take two terrorghiests.

pinktaco
02-11-2014, 08:44
Would appear you're playing a very specialized list vs something a bit more random. Too many reiksguards, two buff wagons and not enough cannons.

Bring a steam tank and keep both cannons within Ld range
Take out one big model a turn. He have absolutely nothing to stand up with once the support units have died.

EvanM
02-11-2014, 14:49
Would appear you're playing a very specialized list vs something a bit more random. Too many reiksguards, two buff wagons and not enough cannons.

Bring a steam tank and keep both cannons within Ld range
Take out one big model a turn. He have absolutely nothing to stand up with once the support units have died.

Exactly, I didnt have two cannons. I personally dont like the tank and I think he could very easily kill it with screams and mortis engine lazer zaps but whatever. Next time i will definitely have 2 cannons to shoot him with.

Also, Im actually gonna try putting the cannons on either flank more than 6" from anyone, last game he fired the casket into a helblaster and it bounced through 9 units ...yes you read that right 9 UNITS in a row, he did this a few times.

MOMUS
02-11-2014, 17:02
Also, Im actually gonna try putting the cannons on either flank more than 6" from anyone, last game he fired the casket into a helblaster and it bounced through 9 units ...yes you read that right 9 UNITS in a row, he did this a few times.

Surely you would just have it more than 6" away for panic reasons? :s

EvanM
02-11-2014, 17:27
Surely you would just have it more than 6" away for panic reasons? :s

I didnt. I dont fear panic checks much, (i know, its gonna burn me someday).... but the casket I do fear.

I think cannons have such crazy range that they should be deployed all the way in the back corner to really protect themselves at the very least from panic and "jumping" abilities.

So in general, is 2 cannons a minimum at 3k pts?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
04-11-2014, 01:11
So i had:

Arch lector with AoMI, GW, dawnstone (mistake, should have had crown of command)
lvl 4 light with van horstmanns speculum, lvl 1 with dispel scroll.
witch hunter
BSB with 2+ armor, luckstone, and fear causing sword
master engineer

57 halberdiers with 2 detachments of 25 swordsmen
12 handgunners

10 reiksguard
10 reiksguard
3 demigryphs
1 great cannon
5 pistoliers

luminark
hurricanum
helblaster

what happened was he used the casket to take out my warmachines, constant spam of invoke made ALL of my shooting do absolutely nothing by the end of the game, in fact during one turn i fired: helblaster for a dozen hits, 10 huntsmen, 12 handgunners, a S5 banishment for 14 hits, 5 pistoliers, and the luminark's lazer beam ALL into a single unit of 30 skeletons....... AND I KILLED 29!!!!!!!!!!! omg, so yeah in his next turn he invoked them all the way back to 24 models. A single more skeleton left. omg.

also, I got literally no spells off. I got 2 banishments, 2 luminark laserbeams, and thats it for the entire game of 6 turns.

in combat my knights fought his dogs and vargheists and his ghouls all game, like 6 rounds of combat.


anyway IF i had been able to pull off the shooting i could destroy that skeleton unit and start shooting a helblaster into a lone vamp or using banishment on the lone vamp that would have been leftover.

Also, if I had been able to get even just 2 good augment spells off during the key close combats, i would have popped his other vamp units.

ugh it was annoying, I think he might have been playing the casket of souls wrong, that or he channeled with all 4 wizards at once on one of his turns.

Your first priority target should have been the casket, followed by the hierotitan, followed by the mortis engine. They're what's letting him get such a dominant magic phase. Shooting at his skeletons wasn't your best call: you WANT those skeletons alive so that you can beat on them and kill his vampires with combat res.

Second, how did he get all of your warmachines? First of all they all should have been deployed within both BSB and IP range. At LD9 or 10 rerollable he'd have to get pretty lucky to kill your cannons in one shot. It's also a good idea to place them more than 6" apart so that he can't bounce the casket between them.

You might also consider making some changes to your list. You don't really have much in the way of heavy hitters. Those 20 reiksguard knights are cool for holding things up, but a steam tank would be a better buy. As might another cannon / hellblaster. I'm assuming the arch lector is on a popemobile? If not he should be on a popemobile.

EvanM
04-11-2014, 02:04
Okay so heres my idea for the next game (hes gonna take the same things but not two vamps, instead.... NAGASH. so heres my idea.

50 halberdiers, warrior priest, BSB

40 greatswords, Arch lector, (ld 10 bubble)

17 Inner circle knights with a warrior priest.

The two wizards go in the swordsmen detachment which stays directly behind the halberdier horde parent unit. (no where does it say that detachments need to stay next to the parent unit).


Lore of beasts is so that i can get at least one of the following off each turn: amber spear - another cannonball, sav beasts - makes my heroes awesome, wins me a combat through CR, wyssans wildform - makes my troops awesome and wins me a combat through CR, or at least curse of anrahier to keep people from wanting to charge me (youd lose 1/3 the unit).

flock of doom sucks, sure, and i know that most people would say "why dont you just take a light council" and i know, a light council is good, but I am kind of all about doing the SECOND best thing i can think of. its really no fun to play a list tailored to kill nagash.


so here it is:



unit
number
equipment


Arch Lector
1
Armor of Meotoric Iron, great weapon


Battle Wizard Lord
1
LvL 4, lore of Beasts, power stone


Battle Standard
1
Full plate armor, enchanted shield, crown of command


Battle Wizard
1
Lvl 1, lore of Beasts, dispel scroll


Warrior Priest
1
Heavy armor, shield, dragonhelm, fear sword


Warrior Priest
1
Barded steed, heavy armor, skavenhelm, great weapon, luckstone


Halberdiers
48
SB + M


Swordsmen
13
detachment to the halberdiers


Knights
17
Inner circle, SB + M, banner of eternal flame


Greatswords
39
SB + M, standard of discipline


Huntsmen
10








Demygryph Knights
3
Lances


Great Cannon
2



Luminark
1



Hurricanum
1

N1AK
06-11-2014, 09:59
My magic was shut down nearly entirely, I was only shooting at skeletons because I didn't have another target, and I literally almost destroyed a unit of 30 skellies in a single round, missing only by a single model!


If you're shooting at VC troops then you're almost certainly doing what the VC general wants. Try and work out why it is that you couldn't target the good stuff (deployment etc) and look at how you can change that. In a match up like that you're probably going to lose the ranged battle (his magic dominance outweighing your limited shooting) so you're best off playing aggressively. All that said, taking a VC army and just stealing the best bits from the TK although legit is a power gamer move imo and if you keep playing balanced mid-tier lists then it's going to be a hard match for you.

Rake
06-11-2014, 12:09
It's not a question of him dominating the magic phase as much as it is army builds that limits you. Yours is jello, his is semi-solid. He is playing a much more competitive list. Take 2 cannons, minimum. Take one helblaster (with engineer, not really worth its points without). Take one steamtank. Then you are on an even footing. Steamtank cancels one lord (make sure he does not have a GW that will make your life a bit harder), lvl 4 with VHS cancels the second, your units eat his for lunch. Meaning whats left is magic. Keep your Steam tanks and characters alive. The rest you can sacrifice. In target priority i would go for casket, then corpse cart, then Mortis. Also ALWAYS rememember the double miscast rule with the mortis engine...

moonlapse
07-11-2014, 08:26
You only have 3 things which can scratch Nagash in that list. Cannon dies turn 2 to a wraith summoned next to it in turn 1. Amber Spear and Luminark are not reliable enough (vs Amber spear he gets +1, vs Ark +5 to dispel) and even then they only do D3 wounds, so he can heal up. If you don't kill Nagash, you will be swamped by free troops.You only have 1 magic weapon so all your other units will eat wraiths and spirit hosts. Knights choke on 100 zombies. Sorry to sound pessimistic, but I think the only way to have a chance is a light council. Anything else is 'let's see how many different ways Nagash can screw my army over', which is even more unfun than killing him.