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Banville
31-10-2014, 22:21
Does exactly what it says on the tin.

How are combined profiles looking like being worked out? And is the mount effectively just a big hunk of plastic for the Lord to sit on? Can the character be killed off the top and If so does the mount revert to normal? Etc etc.

Basically how do you guys see this heading from here. Manticores will lose their Killing Blow if all attacks use the rider's properties, or am I picking this up wrong.

Note, like a lot of the people wanting to get their hands on it, I haven't got Glottkin. Yet.

EvanM
31-10-2014, 22:54
So far, the only combine profiles are End times special characters and such, they are all individually done.

Karl Franz Ascended has a single statline, all attacks (he has 10) get the bonus from ghal maraz, he has S6 T5 now, and 9 wounds. I dont know about the mortarchs and glottkin but KFA is all done in one statline.

Dark Elf
31-10-2014, 22:55
Well it's worked out like this:
You take the highest T value. It is now used for all purpouses. You do the same with wounds. Also when you're attacking a model that has combined profile you go against highest WS.
Now on the other hand attacks made by such a model play out differently than when attacked. Manticore will use it's own attacks, ws and strenght , and rider his own.
They also share one armor save.
But I'm not so sure that manticore and it's rider share a profile. I'll have to check that out.

Hope it's clear enough and that I didn't miss anything.

Dark Elf
31-10-2014, 22:56
So far, the only combine profiles are End times special characters and such, they are all individually done.

Karl Franz Ascended has a single statline, all attacks (he has 10) get the bonus from ghal maraz, he has S6 T5 now, and 9 wounds. I dont know about the mortarchs and glottkin but KFA is all done in one statline.

Wait I thought he ment combined profiles of eg monstrous cavalry?

logan054
31-10-2014, 23:03
Well it's worked out like this:
You take the highest T value. It is now used for all purpouses. You do the same with wounds. Also when you're attacking a model that has combined profile you go against highest WS.
Now on the other hand attacks made by such a model play out differently than when attacked. Manticore will use it's own attacks, ws and strenght , and rider his own.
They also share one armor save.
But I'm not so sure that manticore and it's rider share a profile. I'll have to check that out.

Hope it's clear enough and that I didn't miss anything.

I'm pretty sure you just use the highest state of each model with the exception of wounds and attacks which just seem like they are combined.

EvanM
31-10-2014, 23:11
Wait I thought he ment combined profiles of eg monstrous cavalry?

i honestly dont know what he meant.

what you say is how it works for MCAV

Banville
31-10-2014, 23:40
What I meant was, what is the rubric that was applied to KF to achieve his profile? Going forward how will this interact with other Lords with access to monstrous mounts? Can a character or mount be killed separately anymore? Will mounts have any bearing in combat anymore etc etc....

wyvirn
31-10-2014, 23:40
I like it. It's a lot less confusing.

EvanM
31-10-2014, 23:42
What I meant was, what is the rubric that was applied to KF to achieve his profile? Going forward how will this interact with other Lords with access to monstrous mounts? Can a character or mount be killed separately anymore? Will mounts have any bearing in combat anymore etc etc....

Basically it means NOTHING. All regular characters with monster mounts will NOT be combined in any way whatsoever, unless one of the books releases it or theres some change in 9th edition. All normal monster/rider rules are exactly the same as they always were minus KFA and glottkin and mortarchs... etc.

Karl is the exception made in ET: Glottkin, theres no chart telling you how they calculated his stats.

Banville
01-11-2014, 00:05
Yes... I know. I'm looking for speculation. Hence the post in General not Rules....

EvanM
01-11-2014, 00:07
Yes... I know. I'm looking for speculation. Hence the post in General not Rules....

for the most part its pick highest strength, highest toughness, add the wounds of the two things together, add the attacks of both together, shared armor save, shared ward save, shared equipment and special rules, highest Init, highest WS, highest LD

moonlapse
01-11-2014, 00:17
How can we reconcile the fact that Glottkin is I1 yet Karl Franz Ascended is I7? In the former, we use the lowest I, that of Ghurk. However in the latter we use the highest I, that of Karl Franz. Confusing!

theunwantedbeing
01-11-2014, 00:18
What I meant was, what is the rubric that was applied to KF to achieve his profile? Going forward how will this interact with other Lords with access to monstrous mounts?
From what we've seen so far the general rule seems to be
-use the best stat from the rider or the mounts profile
-wounds are calculated by adding both rider + mount wound stats together
-attacks are calculate by adding both rider + attack stats together

Extra rules seem to be
-the writer is free to use the worst stat
-the writer is free to add or subtract from a stat
-the writer is free to ignore the usual cap of 10


Can a character or mount be killed separately anymore?
Nope, it's a single profile for all parts now.
Much like mounts in 40k just grant bonus stat amounts rather than having a separate profile.


Will mounts have any bearing in combat anymore etc etc....
The unit type will be whatever the mounts unit type is.
The mount will still provide +1 armour save to the riders save (which now becomes the entire models save)
Monsters will still get to make a stomp/thunderstomp attack.
Presumably the monster still gets to keep breath weapons and such and special rules that affect it will work on the entire model in much the same way the riders items/abilities will.


I hate it personally.

EvanM
01-11-2014, 00:19
do we think they will eventually have combined profiles for every monster/rider?

Dark Elf
01-11-2014, 00:31
do we think they will eventually have combined profiles for every monster/rider?

As someone above said, it is simpler. But I'm not sure it is better.

EvanM
01-11-2014, 00:56
As someone above said, it is simpler. But I'm not sure it is better.

yeah good points, probably not "better" but it probably will be mainstream rules next ed.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
01-11-2014, 03:02
It seems as though armour saves are calculated based on +1 for mounted, plus armour bonus. Is originally thought that mundane armour wasn't added since both Neferata and Arkhan are modeled with heavy armour but don't have a save. However it seems that this isn't the case, given Karl Franz's 3+ save (4+ full plate, +1 mounted?)


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Tah Kazak Rik
01-11-2014, 06:22
It seems as though armour saves are calculated based on +1 for mounted, plus armour bonus. Is originally thought that mundane armour wasn't added since both Neferata and Arkhan are modeled with heavy armour but don't have a save. However it seems that this isn't the case, given Karl Franz's 3+ save (4+ full plate, +1 mounted?)

Yeah that is something I noticed as well. Not only are Arkhan and Neferata modeled with heavy armour or at the least light armour, the mounts themselves are armoured...yet together they only have a 6+ AS? What is GW doing....At least with Vlad they gave him heavy armour when previously he had no AS.

Greyshadow
01-11-2014, 06:43
I like it. It's a lot less confusing.

Me too! I think this is a great idea as I am often checking the rules for split profiles and we always have problems finding an appropriate model when a rider gets dismounted.

This streamlines things nicely.

Malagor
01-11-2014, 08:32
.At least with Vlad they gave him heavy armour when previously he had no AS.
Vlad had heavy armor before as well.

Urgat
01-11-2014, 08:40
do we think they will eventually have combined profiles for every monster/rider?

If it does, I'll have fun with my shaman on arachnarok. A hunter on stonehorn would probably be hella fun too.

Malagor
01-11-2014, 08:42
Vampire Lord on a zombie dragon, yes please.

It's also a hammer
01-11-2014, 08:47
T7 str7 HE prince re-rolling failed to hits with 10attacks. Hello Caledor army

It's also a hammer
01-11-2014, 08:49
Although if combined profiles are inducted into 9th edition as standard, then say hello to both "Canonhammer" and "Warmonster".

Banville
01-11-2014, 08:54
In fairness, at least a monster will survive to get into combat, now. Apart from KF who is, literally, a beast generic Lords from the Army books might actually be worth taking again without gimping yourself with a 600-700 point handicap from the outset.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
01-11-2014, 10:24
Vampire Lord on a zombie dragon, yes please.
Tomb Prince on a warsphinx. GW and protective kit. WS 5 thundercrush, 8 s7 attacks, breaty weapon, thunderstomp, and 8 T8 wounds. All for 374 points. I'll take three.

Collector
01-11-2014, 14:34
I think it a sign of things to come, Trying to fix the complaint that the rules are to hard. So they getting rid of ridden monster rule and just giving a combined profile to make things easier.

Urgat
01-11-2014, 15:09
Tomb Prince on a warsphinx. GW and protective kit. WS 5 thundercrush, 8 s7 attacks, breaty weapon, thunderstomp, and 8 T8 wounds. All for 374 points. I'll take three.

Prices might get adjusted somewhat if they did do that, you know. KF does cost a smudge more than he used to :p

ivan55599
01-11-2014, 16:53
Tzeentch lord with chaos dragon.


Although if combined profiles are inducted into 9th edition as standard, then say hello to both "Canonhammer" and "Warmonster".

As if caNonhammer wasn't before, too. So... only plus side on this thing.

Skywave
01-11-2014, 17:13
Prices might get adjusted somewhat if they did do that, you know. KF does cost a smudge more than he used to :p

Because he also got some additional rules in the process :P

But even if the price is more toward ~500-600pts, I'll jump on the opportunity to have a Tomb Prince/King on a Sphinx with combined profile!

EvanM
01-11-2014, 19:28
Because he also got some additional rules in the process :P

But even if the price is more toward ~500-600pts, I'll jump on the opportunity to have a Tomb Prince/King on a Sphinx with combined profile!

KFA is combined (so stat changes) and he did get the lightning bound spell ability (really funny, probably only worth 30-40 pts) but his price mounted on deathclaw (from before to after) went up by 200ish points.

I mean sure its worth it, but if they do the same thing across the board then a prince on star dragon will be 900 pts, a tomb king on sphinx is gonna be 200 pts more than it costs now (even though it will likely be twice as good, so its fair but it is a price increase)

Skywave
01-11-2014, 19:59
KFA is combined (so stat changes) and he did get the lightning bound spell ability (really funny, probably only worth 30-40 pts) but his price mounted on deathclaw (from before to after) went up by 200ish points.

I mean sure its worth it, but if they do the same thing across the board then a prince on star dragon will be 900 pts, a tomb king on sphinx is gonna be 200 pts more than it costs now (even though it will likely be twice as good, so its fair but it is a price increase)

Karl also got a 'second' and better Ghal Maraz with the essence. I don't have the book yet but I guess you could technically field Valten with the hammer and Franz with a better hammer in a same (big) game!

But like I said, even if combined profile end up being +150-200pts for regular characters, I'll take it any day for a Sphinx! A mounted King is around 500pts when tooled up, a Prince is about 380pts. A fully loaded King with T8, W8-9 and 3+/4++ for 700pts is ok in my book :)

EvanM
01-11-2014, 20:07
Karl also got a 'second' and better Ghal Maraz with the essence. I don't have the book yet but I guess you could technically field Valten with the hammer and Franz with a better hammer in a same (big) game!

But like I said, even if combined profile end up being +150-200pts for regular characters, I'll take it any day for a Sphinx! A mounted King is around 500pts when tooled up, a Prince is about 380pts. A fully loaded King with T8, W8-9 and 3+/4++ for 700pts is ok in my book :)

i think this is where 9th is heading --> everyone will have 1 uber killy character of doom that costs a gillion points. I kind of like it. but oh well we will have to see

Spiney Norman
02-11-2014, 01:10
Tzeentch lord with chaos dragon.



As if caNonhammer wasn't before, too. So... only plus side on this thing.

Well, probably the easiest way of redressing the issue of cannons being overpowered in the current meta is giving a substantial boost to their primary prey - the monster mounted hero. Unfortunately that has an unpleasant knock-on effect because not all armies have access to cannons anyway and so have to find alternative means to deal with the super-charged monster lords.

Drago Daemonis
02-11-2014, 01:28
I like how heroes on pegasi work now, like a semi combined stat line but the monster and mount still have their own attacks at their I, A, WS and S. Could they not have just extended this principle? The fully combined stats seem made up and don't make a lot of sense, the moster generally has a boost to initiative, ward and armour just because a little guy is sitting on it. Simpler yes, some would say dumbed down.

Muad'Dib
02-11-2014, 06:14
I like how heroes on pegasi work now, like a semi combined stat line but the monster and mount still have their own attacks at their I, A, WS and S. Could they not have just extended this principle? The fully combined stats seem made up and don't make a lot of sense, the moster generally has a boost to initiative, ward and armour just because a little guy is sitting on it. Simpler yes, some would say dumbed down.
It's GW, what do you expect - if there's a sensible/moderate option and one that results in head-scratching and imbalances, they will go for the latter one.