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Mike3791
01-11-2014, 15:05
Hey folks, now that Beasts can get the same marks as warriors, what does everyone think? The whole list seemed to have got better overnight.

N00B
01-11-2014, 16:44
Vastly better.

Bestigors and gors seem like they can stand toe to toe with most things now. Characters get a boost from the marks as well. Doombulls were always combat monsters but if they can get MoN then they will really survive as well.

In Dark Trees
01-11-2014, 17:10
It opens up a lot of options to us. When I first read about it I might have said: "ERMAGHERD."

Here are my initial thoughts:

Gor and Ungor units work well with any of the marks (Tzeentch is the weakest; I don't understand why GW insists on thinking a 6+ ward save is as useful as a -1 to hit), although I think Khorne and Slaanesh are particularly appealing. I see Gors with the Mark of Khorne or Slaanesh becoming very common, especially in an ambushing capacity.

Slapping the Mark of Slaanesh on a big block of Ungors turns them into an excellent blocking unit.

Minotaurs with the Mark of Nurgle or Mark of Khorne are very enticing. The Mark of Nurgle somewhat mitigates their fragility, while the Mark of Khorne enables them to ransack anything they come across.

Centigors with the Mark of Khorne sound like a lot of fun. As do Razorgor chariots.

I don't think the Mark of Tzeentch is terribly appealing for most Beast units (our units are so flimsy, adding a neglible ward save to them hardly seems valuable), however, it does offer a lot of possibilities for our characters. I'm going to put it on my flying Doombull, for instance, and I think it could potentially rekindle my interest in a combat-oriented Great Bray Shaman.

Reiko321
01-11-2014, 18:09
Since the new "marks on characters in beastmen" is slapped on... It does not look like shaman with marks can use the god specific lores... However they don't lose their normal ones either!

So, fighty great shaman lore of beasts with mark of tzeentch!

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
01-11-2014, 19:55
Mark of Tzeentch is great on models that already have a ward save. 5++ parry save, for instance. Doombull with a 3++. And since you can't mix marks in a unit, it pays to have the unit marked to that if there's good reason to mark the character to it.

Say...doom bull with armour of destiny, gorebull BSB with tal of pres, both marked to tzeentch for a 3++, comprising the entire front rank.

I think khorne will be pretty standard for beastmen infantry. More attacks is always solid. Slaanesh is best for chaff since you can still flee but don't panic. Nurgle for expensive units that you want to protect like say Beastigor. Anything with GW really.

Also note: you can take wizards marked to khorne. Yup. Good ol'khorne wizards.

In Dark Trees
02-11-2014, 00:52
Mark of Tzeentch is great on models that already have a ward save. 5++ parry save, for instance. Doombull with a 3++. And since you can't mix marks in a unit, it pays to have the unit marked to that if there's good reason to mark the character to it.

Say...doom bull with armour of destiny, gorebull BSB with tal of pres, both marked to tzeentch for a 3++, comprising the entire front rank.

I think khorne will be pretty standard for beastmen infantry. More attacks is always solid. Slaanesh is best for chaff since you can still flee but don't panic. Nurgle for expensive units that you want to protect like say Beastigor. Anything with GW really.

Also note: you can take wizards marked to khorne. Yup. Good ol'khorne wizards.

It will be interesting to see if the Mark of Tzeentch causes players to rethink the summary dismissal of hand weapon and shield armed Gors. With toughness 4 and a 5++ ward save they've suddenly become rather hardy. I still think additional hand weapons makes more sense in the context of the Beasts list, but the combination does offer some possibilities that didn't really exist before.

Frep
02-11-2014, 00:58
Flying doom bulls with mark of Tzeentch do seem fairly terrifying and yeah Khorne bray shamans sounds awesome. It's kinda sad that nurgle continues to be the best mark/god Un yet another list, but that -1 to hit just made minos a lot more viable

N00B
02-11-2014, 01:03
In close combat vs something hitting on a 4+ the MoN saves 1/3 of wounds. If the unit is habd weapon and shield then the MoT saves 1/5 of wounds.

Unless you worry a lot about shooting or direct damage magic MoN is better (plus you get to take extra hand weapon instead). If you worry about magic then consider a character with magic resistance in the unit instead.


How would people consider a Gorebull with armor of desting and MoT as a lone monster type unit? 210 pts is a fair chunk but he should still be a major threat and a flank charge from him will turn a combat (or make him a lord and add araybian carpet?)

Knifeparty
02-11-2014, 01:06
Tzeentch is the weakest; I don't understand why GW insists on thinking a 6+ ward save is as useful as a -1 to hit

It's actually arguably stronger in many cases. Both -1 to hit and 6+ ward save provide a 16.7% increase in survivability. Where Tzeentch actually wins out is the fact that that 16.7% increase in defence applies to the shooting, magic and combat phase where the mark of nurgle only works in combat and only when rolling to hit. Units that use impact hits/stomps etc. aren't affected, where as with tzeentch, they have a chance to save.

decker_cky
02-11-2014, 05:25
Mark of Tzeentch is great on models that already have a ward save. 5++ parry save, for instance. Doombull with a 3++. And since you can't mix marks in a unit, it pays to have the unit marked to that if there's good reason to mark the character to it.

Say...doom bull with armour of destiny, gorebull BSB with tal of pres, both marked to tzeentch for a 3++, comprising the entire front rank.

I think khorne will be pretty standard for beastmen infantry. More attacks is always solid. Slaanesh is best for chaff since you can still flee but don't panic. Nurgle for expensive units that you want to protect like say Beastigor. Anything with GW really.

Also note: you can take wizards marked to khorne. Yup. Good ol'khorne wizards.

Maybe 7 point ungors (I prefer unmarked at 5 points), but do you really think 10 point tzeentch shield gors are worthwhile?

Tzeentch is awesome on characters though. Makes the beast banner BSB more resilient too (2+ armour, 5+ parry, 6+ vs stomps is pretty solid).

Khorne bestigors are amazing.

Khorne general is amazing with the reign of chaos chart (bonus stone thrower shots!). Slaanesh reign of chaos is good too.

Slaanesh or Khorne ambusing units are brilliant.

LordG
02-11-2014, 09:06
Giving marks to beastmen units opens a lot of options. It especially makes minotaurs and centigors better and of course characters as pointed out above. Though I am not so sure if I want to give Gors any marks. 2 points per model is significant increase when you are used to field hordes of 50 Gors. That is a 100pts extra. Perhaps mark of Slaanesh so they do not panic off the board all the time. ;)

snyggejygge
02-11-2014, 14:10
Personally I will only mark elite units & characters, its too expensive on our base troops, just like it is for woc marauders

What I will bring is a chimera, our monsters suck, this one doesnt.

N00B
02-11-2014, 15:10
Maybe 7 point ungors (I prefer unmarked at 5 points), but do you really think 10 point tzeentch shield gors are worthwhile?

Tzeentch is awesome on characters though. Makes the beast banner BSB more resilient too (2+ armour, 5+ parry, 6+ vs stomps is pretty solid).

Khorne bestigors are amazing.

Khorne general is amazing with the reign of chaos chart (bonus stone thrower shots!). Slaanesh reign of chaos is good too.

Slaanesh or Khorne ambusing units are brilliant.

Even here I think Nurgle wins over Tzeench. It is hard to shoot a BSB out of a unit but you need to make it more resilient in close combat. Make sure you have a champion to challenge with and you should be able to slice through most stuff.

Grupax
02-11-2014, 16:19
do the new SC count as monsters :D, if so I cant wait for glittering scales, rune of true beast and mark of nurgle for a -3 to get hit in combat. :D
anyway. I hope they errata the beastmen ambush & the marks so they can be used outside the end times campaign - if not - then I guess I won't be using them at my lgs

Malagor
02-11-2014, 16:25
Or you could just ask.
Undead Legion is fine to play as without asking for permissiom where I play. Chaos Legion will be accepted as well.

Yamabushi
03-11-2014, 06:57
Hmm, in blatant disregard to the fluff, it is possible now to field a Khornate Bray Shaman using the Lore of Undeath. >.<

In Dark Trees
03-11-2014, 14:40
It's actually arguably stronger in many cases. Both -1 to hit and 6+ ward save provide a 16.7% increase in survivability. Where Tzeentch actually wins out is the fact that that 16.7% increase in defence applies to the shooting, magic and combat phase where the mark of nurgle only works in combat and only when rolling to hit. Units that use impact hits/stomps etc. aren't affected, where as with tzeentch, they have a chance to save.

Thanks for this! I hadn't done the math (obviously), and I appreciate the thoughtful correction.

snyggejygge
03-11-2014, 17:46
Its not that easy, look here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/604645.page

In Dark Trees
03-11-2014, 17:59
Its not that easy, look here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/604645.page

Very helpful. Many thanks!

Knifeparty
03-11-2014, 19:14
Right, I think the big difference between the two is that MoN benefits from having the increased survivability against a larger pool (attacks) while the mark of Tzeentch affects a smaller poor (ward saves) because in order to gain the benefit of MoT the attacker has already had to roll to hit and wound reducing the number of rolls that are affected by MoT. My point still stands about MoT affecting more of the game than just the combat phase however.

snyggejygge
03-11-2014, 21:41
If you go for mark of Tzeentch, then you better have a ward already, cause 6+ just doesnt cut it, combined with shields its decent, same with Magic resistance or ironcurse icon, but in combat Nurgle is plain better. I myself however wont mark most of my troops anyway, costs too much unless on already expensive troops or characters.
Slaanesh might be useful on chaff & maybe Khorne on 10-12 man gor ambushers. Otherwise just mark bestigors, minotaurs & characters.

N00B
03-11-2014, 23:32
What are peoples preferred lores for use with beastmen?

decker_cky
04-11-2014, 03:53
Hmm, in blatant disregard to the fluff, it is possible now to field a Khornate Bray Shaman using the Lore of Undeath. >.<

Ignoring lore of undeath, Khornate Bray Shamans are in the 25 year old Realms of Chaos books. So are undead chaos champions for that matter.

Reading the charts, there's two things that stands out for me in terms of marked characters:
-Eye of the gods 7 results are amazing for tzeentch and nurgle.
-Khorne or slaanesh characters get the best boosts from Reign of Chaos rolls of 7. I like Khorne best, but there's some things slaanesh will absolutely wreck.

I see warshrines as a great bargain to beastmen who have to fear both 2 and 12. Plus, I love the bound spell, so I expect to roll on it a few times through the game, which makes having a good '7' roll important. If it goes off a few times, you can easily boost a 206 BSB to a 3+ ward with tzeentch, or to toughness 7 with nurgle (watch out for the screaming bell though).

N00B
04-11-2014, 10:01
I also like the warshrine - I think it is a decent but there are still better options. I do intend to play with one but that is as much because I like the model and like the playstyle. With a herdstone for extra powerdice you should reasonably be able to get this off every turn.

For those that want it, I calculated the probabilities of being able to get each number with the warshrine.




2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12


0.051
0.102
0.153
0.204
0.255
0.306
0.255
0.204
0.153
0.102
0.051



With D3 targets for the EotG roll there is a decent chance of getting an 11 in the first couple of turns... and if not then they are still likely to be being made much tougher.

The warshrine would certainly tempt me to try a Great Bray shaman with the Jagged Dagger and a combat focus. Being able to boost so many different combat stats and to have such a choice seems pretty handy (and savage beast will probably pay for itself in terms of powerdice).

My big concern with the warshrine is its low movement. M6 and not marching makes it difficult to keep up with the Gors pushing forwards at 10" per turn.

N00B
04-11-2014, 10:31
Just ran the numbers - 47.2% chance of a 7 or 9 with a warshrine near.

With Tzeench and Nurgle I can see that you could get some great results as +2 T is more than twice as good as +1T (most of the time) and the same is (even more) true of ward saves.

Getting sphinx toughness nurgle champions might even survive combat vs some hero level characters (and will probably dodge nasty overkill) to help you break units.

I would be tempted to run tricksters helm as armor on Nurgle Characters if you are planning to use the warshrine - over 50% chance to get +1T on a roll means even S4 attacks are on a 1 in 36 chance to wound. As an added bonus it gives you protection from KB and HKB as well.

logan054
04-11-2014, 21:51
Khorne bestigors are amazing.

I can't see why you would take Khornegor (unless you have the old models) over chaos warriors with +1M banner. We are back to the HoC days (about time!), just seems odd.

nathan2004
04-11-2014, 22:22
Primal Fury

N00B
04-11-2014, 22:54
Primal Fury

Having a full second attack is better than a second attack only if you miss and if you pass a leadership test most of the time. Supporting attacks get a bit better I suppose.

Tyranno1
04-11-2014, 23:52
I can't see why you would take Khornegor (unless you have the old models) over chaos warriors with +1M banner. We are back to the HoC days (about time!), just seems odd.

Cheaper.

Easier to cast Wyssans Wildform on them.

Despoilers.

Have the Magic banner slot open.

Re-rolling 2 attacks I find is superior to 3 attacks without it. Just works better in practice.

In Dark Trees
05-11-2014, 14:22
I can't see why you would take Khornegor (unless you have the old models) over chaos warriors with +1M banner. We are back to the HoC days (about time!), just seems odd.

Superior models.

Totally rad background art from GW's musty and wonderful past: http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131110213656/warhammer40k/images/6/6f/Khorngor.png

The joys of saying "Khorngor" repeatedly.

N00B
05-11-2014, 20:35
I am still a bit new to beastmen and just noticed (in my quest for perfect Warshrine/eye of the gods targets) that minotaur champions can take a magic item of up to 25 pts. I was surprised as it isnt limited to weapons or armour (to the extent I went and looked at the FAQ). I am assuming that this question has been addressed a lot of times by people more familiar with the book.

What do people go for?

I can see benefits to trying to protect the unit - Spellshield, obsidian trinket, ironcurse icon (These not bad if you have already gone for Mark of Tzeench anyway for a ward save)

I can see some items having some shock value - Ruby Ring, Potion of Strength, Mask of EEE

Some might be good for list tailoring - Other tricksters shard for example

Some might be to to create a pseudo character (and this is where I think it gets most exciting) - a simple minimum unit of three minotaurs doesnt need to provide a look out sir roll as you just remove two rank and file models first. In this case add a ramhorn (and if he sits at the end of a unit so more attacks have to go against him then he should be strong) or if you mark him nurgle you could take glittering scales to be very resilient (then deploy at least one in the second rank). Of course thinking of this unit champion as a hero/monster might be a bit much as you will need to overcome static combat res not to flee - but you do have 4 attacks, a stomp, potentially an impact hit and potentially bloodgreed attacks, adding this up you should expect to do 3-4 wounds and have the charge, possibly a flank charge and this is assuming no other Minotaur survive at all.. As long as you are reasonably cautious picking your combats you should be able to stay and begin to rack up the bloodgreed. Personally I think the kit should be offensive to maximise damage (yes, this also is because I think that Eye of the gods is better defensively). Another route would be to kit the character out for monster killing.


I think my favourite is Sword of striking
Shield
Mark of Nurgle
this is a 100+ pt model - it is in the right cost for a hero/lord. If you dont want the ramhorn elsewhere it would be great here.

Also
MoT, Obsidian Trinket/talisman of protection, Shield

Or a monster Killer:
MoK, Potion of Strength, Extra hand weapon

I kind of see a kitted out unit of three of these as being equivalent to a monster (it will be a little over 200 pts) but much more resistant to cannons and turning into a titanic engine of destruction on the far side of any combat. I also see these as being well suited to a magic heavy army that want to avoid paying for combat heroes beyond a BSB/Leadership lord. Unfortunately you cant savage beast or Steed of Shadows this guy but normal buffs work pretty well for him anyway (Miasma is great - it helps you hit on 3s, get the charge and with MoN be being hit back on 5s or 6s.

Methios
06-11-2014, 07:29
This is just awsome. I dont like a fully mixed army of chaos. Imo skillcanons have no business in a beastmen army. However i will be using:

- Marks
- Dragon ogres
- Shaggoth
- and maybe the chimera

This will not overpower anything and see beastmen back on the tables i think.
Tournament wise i am still not sure what will happen. WoC army with 2 skull cannons and a couple of beasts of nurgle is gonna sadden my day.

Rogzor87
06-11-2014, 18:18
I am still a bit new to beastmen and just noticed (in my quest for perfect Warshrine/eye of the gods targets) that minotaur champions can take a magic item of up to 25 pts. I was surprised as it isnt limited to weapons or armour (to the extent I went and looked at the FAQ). I am assuming that this question has been addressed a lot of times by people more familiar with the book.



I may be wrong. I don't have the book on me but I believe its just 1 item you can take up to 25 points but it seems you were following that with what you wrote out.

logan054
06-11-2014, 23:06
Cheaper.

Easier to cast Wyssans Wildform on them.

Despoilers.

Have the Magic banner slot open.

Re-rolling 2 attacks I find is superior to 3 attacks without it. Just works better in practice.

I wouldn't even worry about the mark. Besides I think are you forgetting about the perks!

Core
WS5
I5
No Frenzy (so no forced overruns)
Better armour (can have a 3+ against shooting)
Halberds

nathan2004
08-11-2014, 00:20
Now that Beasts of Nurgle have unstable they aren't as strong as before IMO but that's a discussion for another day. I've dropped some serious cash on starting BM now that I can use them in my DoC and WoC armies. Really happy GW decided to give us the option to run a combined army again.

Mavir
08-11-2014, 07:53
N00B, sword of striking on a Gledhill/doombull? I'd forget that and go with the Bessemer sword Every day of the week! Think about it... "And cannot lose frenzy"... Meaning with the slaughterers call rule and bloodgreed. Win 5 round of combat and then somehow lose the next... You still keep your +5 attacks!!!!

Other than that, in friendly games, I'm sticking to my no marks list. True beastmen!!! Tournaments, along with 50% lords/heroes now, the marks suddenly make beastmen a hard army to face. Imaging two doombulls charging in a large unit of minos with centigor core charging down the flanks.

IMO, that would be harsh with the ediition of mixing in a WOC wizard fielding lore of life (if they can still take it, not got the newer book)

Malagor
08-11-2014, 09:52
Sword of Striking is better IMO or the ASF sword on a Doombull.
In your case, if your doombull has won 5 rounds of combat, the chance of losing a fight is slim especially if you hit on 2+ or got rerolls.
I can see what you are saying and it is a nice back-up just in case but it just seems so passive and think Doombulls are better with more active weapons that are always in effect and with those 2 weapons, you won't lose frenzy to begin with.
And no, WoC can't take lore of Life.

Grupax
08-11-2014, 10:17
as for the sword I rather give no Magic weapon to my doombull becouse of the abundance of high elves in tournaments :D
as for the dilemma vs mark of tz & nurgle....

tzeentch works vs ranged attacks, magic;wich makes it awesome for lone characters. and vs lore of death sniping.
on big units I'd not take tzeentch though -> unless they serve as a bunker for a tzeentch character :/ (wasting points in the progress)

Nurgle I will take on my centigors, 2points to make them last better in combat might actually make them viable as flankers.

Slaanesh to keep chaff from running. (and for some, keep mages from fleeing the location of the herdstone in panic :p)

khorne to get additional precious high strenght attacks ...

but in the end I will probably use none:D, as I like loads of models and all combined, marks really cut into your points and limit the option of switching characters from one unit to another if needed. THIS really is a huge drawback.

Mavir
09-11-2014, 08:52
Charge the minos into a big until, your gorebull banner bearer has a 1+ and when he passes it, he hits them (ramhorn) then the berz sword and even if you lose a combat early, you don't lose frenzy or additional attacks. Blackened plate on the champ and you're surviveable...


Pretty nasty IMO

decker_cky
09-11-2014, 18:21
I wouldn't even worry about the mark. Besides I think are you forgetting about the perks!

Core
WS5
I5
No Frenzy (so no forced overruns)
Better armour (can have a 3+ against shooting)
Halberds

40% more expensive, and slower (if warriors can take the movement banner, so can bestigors).

Offensively, bestigors get 3 attacks per file, chaos warriors get 4 attacks per file. In a horde (realistic for bestigors, not for wariors, though not too realistic for 14 point bestigors) you add one to that.

Against WS3 or lower, bestigors cause as many hits as warriors (2.67 per file). A bestigor horde causes more than a warrior horde (3.56 vs 3.33).

Against WS4, warriors cause more hits than warriors (2.25 vs 2.67). Bestigor hordes cause more than warriors (3) and warrior hordes cause more than bestigor hordes (3.33).

Against WS5 or higher, bestigors cause more hits than warriors (2.25 vs 2). Bestigors hordes cause more than warrior hordes (3 vs 2.5).

Offensively, that looks like a wash. Defensively, warriors are better, but not enough to make up for the price difference.

The initiative of warriors means nothing to elves, but against a lot of targets, it means they strike first. Striking first matters more to the much more expensive warriors though. If the initiative was a factor, then bestigors are striking at a higher strength.

Warriors are good, but if they weren't core, I think it would be a landslide for bestigors.

logan054
10-11-2014, 11:06
Decker, you are still comparing them to Khorne warriors, I said without the frenzy, I was pretty clear it wasn't khorne warriors. I think you need to also take into account the defensive bonus of WS5 over WS4, the defensive bonus of I5 is a game that dominated by magic (death being a big one). Bestigor are cool and all, If I can have a Core unit that does the same job, just as well, that has a greater chance of getting across the board in fighting order and not even have to waste my core point on gor. I then have points in my special I can spend on more effective units. I dunno, Chaos warriors with Halberds and a BSB with the Beastbanner sounds like a much more attractive option to me. Hell, that even makes HW+SH warriors a very scary prospect.

N00B
25-11-2014, 16:40
Still playing around with all the new toys and loving the marks (benefits of being newish to the army I guess)... I am wondering if a Combat Great Bray Shaman is viable to use the Jagged Dagger for more powerdice?

Thinking something like:
Mark of Tzeench
Talisman of Preservation
Brass Cleaver
Jagged Dagger
Potion of Strength

I was thinking that this could be a bit of a nasty surprise - 5 attacks (should be able to get 3 in base contact), re-rolling to hit, S4 (S7 with the potion) and a decent level of protection (T5, 3++). Next turn use the extra dice gained this way to drop Savage Beast of Horros and continue.

Tyranno1
25-11-2014, 17:20
Decker, you are still comparing them to Khorne warriors, I said without the frenzy, I was pretty clear it wasn't khorne warriors. I think you need to also take into account the defensive bonus of WS5 over WS4, the defensive bonus of I5 is a game that dominated by magic (death being a big one). Bestigor are cool and all, If I can have a Core unit that does the same job, just as well, that has a greater chance of getting across the board in fighting order and not even have to waste my core point on gor. I then have points in my special I can spend on more effective units. I dunno, Chaos warriors with Halberds and a BSB with the Beastbanner sounds like a much more attractive option to me. Hell, that even makes HW+SH warriors a very scary prospect.

And ok even with a marked Bestigor vs unmarked Warrior; the warrior is still more expensive, as otherwise you are comparing a chaos warrior who is armed with no more than a hand weapon. And that is no contest.
Now the fact Bestigors are forcefully equipped with a great weapon means their options are smaller. But once again this comes down to price. As chaos warriors have to pay through the nose for all their upgrades, Halberds being the big one.
Once you start capitalizing on the benefits of a warrior it starts to add up. And all for a unit thats still only M4, so paying more on a unit that can be quite easily avoided by most armies dosent feel that attractive.

Gor are not a "waste" btw.


Thinking something like:
Mark of Tzeench
Talisman of Preservation
Brass Cleaver
Jagged Dagger
Potion of Strength

I always love me a brass cleaver.
I guess if you wanted to up his combat ability you could even go Khorne. Adds more kills and more kills means.....prizes!