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Imperator64
02-11-2014, 11:41
The rumours thread derailed into tactics and got closed so here it is.
How would your current list fare against KFA?
If it wouldn't stand a chance then how would it have to change if he became a feature in your gaming group?

My woodies take twenty poison shots, 7 armour ignoring ones, and 10 trueflight. Standing a chance would require swapping out the trueflight for poison and being able to keep as many of them hitting him for as long as possible. Perhaps a mindrazerd wild rider charge as a desperate last hope.
I may also have to switch to High in order to take out his ward. My treeman would have to go.
Its definitely not clear to me atm.

Shadeseraph
02-11-2014, 12:34
Mine? No.

It's mostly a HE MSU army which eventually evolved to include a light council to be able to deal with WoC and DE flyer spam (banishment, and such), but against karl franz they are all but useless. On the other side, every infantry unit is built with a champion and 11+ models, or is stubborn (and also has a champion), and cavalry is both cheap and can flee if needed, so I guess KFA is limited to killing maybe 4 units. I think that's about 2/3 his points in units. But nothing I have is able to deal with him, and the only thing that can threaten him a little are 2 bolt throwers.

EvanM
02-11-2014, 14:46
I am an empire player and I can tell you I think i am gonna try KFA but only at 4000 pts (i want to still bring an army) but its okay because my buddy wants to play nagash.

My advice against him is to use magic, things that dont allow ward saves and do damage by ignoring things. Hes too dang good defensively with T5 9 wounds and 4++ ward, 3+ armor, and MR3. You cant get much through that.

Banishment will not work, he has a 2+ ward save against it (even though he has to reroll successes).

I would suggest trying to tarpit him with a huge unit of slaves, zombies... something that he fights all game and never breaks. It has to be infantry, anything with multi wounds or armor will get obliterated in 2 rounds

Malagor
02-11-2014, 17:30
High magic, arcane unforging=Karl franz turning into a overcosted harmless kitten.

EvanM
02-11-2014, 17:45
High magic, arcane unforging=Karl franz turning into a overcosted harmless kitten.

Yeah thats true but thats literally ONE spell for ONE army. so good luck with that.

Rudra34
02-11-2014, 19:22
Well, unforging is one spell for three armies. :p


He will be a touch nut to crack! His high speed and 4++ make him pretty resilient to concentrated shooting, but it may be your best chance to kill him. If you can, do your best to get him tied up in challenges with champions or non-important characters. If you play undead, then slam a block of cheap infantry into him and rez the champ back as many times as you can. For VC, death magic (doom and darkness) and screams can bring him down. His high stats make him resilient against test-or-die spells, but a 1/6 chance to kill a model at that many points is a risk I would take every turn!

In combat forget about it. He is hands-down the best fighter in the game now, and even massed high-strength attacks have to get passed his 4++.

Good luck!

Malagor
02-11-2014, 19:35
Well, unforging is one spell for three armies. :p

4 actually.
And lore of High Magic can deal with anything else that the empire has after KF has turned into a cute kitten, even KF himself.
Once his ward save and Ghal is gone he really is a overpriced flying lord with a pretty bad armor save.
And there are items that forces successful ward saves to be rerolled or even ignore ward saves completely so there are ways to get past his defenses(but can't take his attacks in the process).
And of course we got characters like Kharak from Beastmen that nullifies any magic weapon that is in base contact with him and characters that destroy magic items with ease.
But of course, 200 slaves will lock him up for the entire game.

Rudra34
02-11-2014, 19:39
Not to derail, but which is the fourth army with unforging? I am losing my mind trying to figure it out!

Malagor
02-11-2014, 19:43
Ohhh wait, forgot that dark elves can't take it :p
Nevermind, only 3 armies.
But Dark Elves got Malekith that does that job.

Rudra34
02-11-2014, 19:46
Ohhh wait, forgot that dark elves can't take it :p
Nevermind, only 3 armies.
But Dark Elves got Malekith that does that job.

Yes, Malekith has a good chance. Thanks for the confirmation, I was about to lose it.

EvanM
02-11-2014, 20:42
If your plan is "use high magic" id say thats a limited idea.

Malagor
02-11-2014, 20:44
If your plan is "use high magic" id say thats a limited idea.
You could read what I wrote.

Lord Dan
03-11-2014, 12:04
Sorry, why won't a couple of cannonballs do the trick?

Banville
03-11-2014, 12:34
^ Quoted for truth.

Lord Shadowheart
03-11-2014, 12:40
6 Cannon Shots on average to get him :D

Banner of the World Dragon White Lion Death Star would be my answer, backed up by archers and RBT's.

Malagor
03-11-2014, 15:58
Sorry, why won't a couple of cannonballs do the trick?
But Dan, surely you must know that a 4++ ward save makes him impossible to kill.:shifty:

Folomo
03-11-2014, 16:32
Average chance to hit ~2/3. 5/6 chance to wound. 1/2 chance to fail his saves. 3.5 wounds on average. So, around 1 wound per cannon per shot, ignoring misfires. Pretty good chance to severily wound/kill him if you can deploy 5 cannons.

EvanM
03-11-2014, 17:13
Also if people take KFA theyd probably want lore of Life because they can keep him healed up to full health unless you kill him in one turn.

N1AK
06-11-2014, 09:40
Also if people take KFA theyd probably want lore of Life because they can keep him healed up to full health unless you kill him in one turn.

I'm still not persuaded that he's half as broken for his points as many people are making out. You're right that Lore of Life works very well in combination with him, as it does with most high wound good ward model. However he's still one high points value model. Typical strategies to tie up those will work on him.

My club tends to shy away from choices like this, however I'd have no issue facing him with a top level Dwarf build. If he sits back then I'll win the shooting war and I've got enough stubborn/unbreakable stuff to hold him up if he comes forward.

Lord Dan
06-11-2014, 12:41
Average chance to hit ~2/3. 5/6 chance to wound. 1/2 chance to fail his saves. 3.5 wounds on average. So, around 1 wound per cannon per shot, ignoring misfires.

1.46 wounds per shot, if you accept that the odds to hit him are actually 2/3. A better way to look at it is to say that all successful hits average 2.92 wounds, so it would take ~3 successful cannonball shots to kill him.

Folomo
06-11-2014, 13:26
@N1AK: The problem is not that he can't be defeated. For some armies it will be playing/list-building normally. A few will have an easy match (Dwarfs for example). But for others its almost impossible to make a list that can deal with him and remain competitive against other armies at the same time. This "rock-scissors-Karl Franz" change to the game makes it less about how you play and more about winning on the list-building phase. One of the main problems caused by KFA.

What are these typical strategies you are suggesting to deal with him?
I am interested in hearing them, because most of the ones mentioned on the original KFA post where either unviable (tying him with infantry for example XD ), applied to a selected few armies (making a gunline with 3+ cannons) or forced you to "lose" (castling and not moving against an army with warmachines).


@Lord Dan:

1.46 wounds per shot, if you accept that the odds to hit him are actually 2/3. A better way to look at it is to say that all successful hits average 2.92 wounds, so it would take ~3 successful cannonball shots to kill him.
Not sure why you are only considering the result of successful cannonballs Lord Dan. Its an important aspect of the damage done and a unaware reader may get a pretty wrong idea on how many cannon shoots are required to kill KFA. 3 vs 9 cannon shoots is quite a lot of difference.

A 2/3 chance to hit is on the spot if you play on a open field with no visual obstruction. But in reality not every cannon will be able to select a point 10" away from the back of the Deathclaw. So 2/3 may be a bit optimistic.

Andy p
06-11-2014, 13:52
I am interested in hearing them, because most of the ones mentioned on the original KFA post where either unviable (tying him with infantry for example XD ),


To be fair, if you play an army that is mostly infantry, with the rest being a few low points costs machines or chaff ie: my current greenskins, then it is viable as he has no choice. I think there is an issue where the general play-style of the environment tends towards multiple small units though.

Or the army has expensive units.

Spiney Norman
06-11-2014, 14:24
Yes, Malekith has a good chance. Thanks for the confirmation, I was about to lose it.

Indeed he does, striking first and 'oh I broke your pretty little magic hammer and now have a 2+ ward'. It would probably take Malekith a few turns but he should chew through Karl eventually.

Maybe Helebron in a unit of something with the razor banner, even Karl can only hold up against so many poison wounds, the tricky part would be getting her unit there.

So the conclusion is, if you're going to end up facing KFA, you'd better be playing an elf army...

On the other hand there is the universal solution to all Warhammer ills... Cannons

I think if I was going to fight KFA I'd probably bring my own filthy cheese and break out Nagash, even Karl can't chew through a unit of 100 zombies every turn. Not sure how I would counter it with my greenskins, perhaps field all six of my bolt throwers together with both stone throwers and hope I get a few hits on him.

Folomo
06-11-2014, 14:43
Indeed he (Malekith ) does, striking first and 'oh I broke your pretty little magic hammer and now have a 2+ ward'. It would probably take Malekith a few turns but he should chew through Karl eventually.
I have heard this a few times, on how Malekith can kill KFA.
Is Malekith competitive enough to use in a list without knowing you will face KFA now that you can field 50% lords, or is he only justificable if you know you will play against such character in advance?

Andy p
06-11-2014, 15:17
I have heard this a few times, on how Malekith can kill KFA.
Is Malekith competitive enough to use in a list without knowing you will face KFA now that you can field 50% lords, or is he only justificable if you know you will play against such character in advance?

A friend of mine used him recently against my mono-Tzeentch army, unfortunately I never got to find out as he miscast and got sucked into the warp turn 2.

I guess HE was the male sorcerer that was going to finish him that the prophecy talked about.

thesoundofmusica
06-11-2014, 17:31
Dont fall for the old "I have to kill his entire army". Also some scenarios have other victory conditions.

daftpunkevo
06-11-2014, 19:43
If someone cheese with KFA i'll just play my Exalted VerminLord who can literally vaporise KFA before it even swing or my Emperor Carmine Dragon with the unholy 2d6 Dead miniatures breath.

Lord Dan
07-11-2014, 00:24
Not sure why you are only considering the result of successful cannonballs Lord Dan. Its an important aspect of the damage done and a unaware reader may get a pretty wrong idea on how many cannon shoots are required to kill KFA.
To begin with, I don't disagree with your premise: it takes a lot of cannonballs to bring the guy down. Still, it's not 2/3 - it's actually less than 2/3. If we assume someone guesses 6" out and the shot is head-on:

Misfire - Miss
2 - Potential Hit
4 - Potential Hit
6 - Hit
8 - Hit
10 - Miss

So 1/3 miss right out, 1/3 hit right out, and the remaining 1/3 hit if the 2 doesn't subsequently result in a 2 or a misfire, and the 4 doesn't roll a misfire. In other words, its something like a 57.8% chance of hitting. So, 10.8 cannonballs under perfect conditions, if we want to be precise.

However, not all shots are the same. What about shots from an angle? What if the player doesn't guess 6", or can't guess 6"? Grapeshot? It think it's far more misleading to say that the odds of hitting with a given cannonball are "~2/3" than it is to just skip those variables and assess how many successful hits would be necessary.

Folomo
07-11-2014, 02:52
Technically, the ideal number to hit something with a cannon is 10" from its back, not 6" from its front. But in the sitatuon of a 4" mini is the same.

If you do this with a 4" long model you get, based on the first artillery dice:

Misfire = miss
2" = hit if you woll a 6, 8 or 10 on the second dice
4" = hit on 4", 6", 8" and 10"
6" = hit on 2", 4", 6", 8" and 10"
8" = hit on a misfire, 2", 4", 6", 8" and 10"
10" = hit on a misfire, 2", 4", 6", 8" and 10"

So you have a (0+3+4+5+6+6)/36 = 24/36 = 2/3 chance to hit.
But I did comment this was under ideal situations and that terrain and other shenanigans may reduce this number a bit.

Lord Dan
07-11-2014, 03:30
Your math is off because the base is 3.92 inches, not 4. A roll of 10 on the initial shot therefore overshoots by a hair.

moonlapse
07-11-2014, 08:09
People still saying Malekith has a good chance. He doesn't. He strikes first and almost certainly hits. Now roll a D6. On a 1-3, you destroy nothing. Congrats, you're dead. Rolled a 4+? Okay, roll again. On a 1-3, you destroy the silver seal. Congrats, you're dead. So he has only a 25% chance of nullifying KFA's weapon. Yes, he's immune to multiple wounds, but he has a 2+ armour at best if you mount him on a cold one, and a 3+ if on Sepharon, so he'll die to all the S6 attacks. Plus, if you put him on Sepharon so he can actually catch KFA, he costs the same points, so even if he weakens him by destroying the silver seal you still lose a huge chunk of your army.

ewar
07-11-2014, 10:55
This "rock-scissors-Karl Franz" change to the game makes it less about how you play and more about winning on the list-building phase. One of the main problems caused by KFA.

What are these typical strategies you are suggesting to deal with him?
I am interested in hearing them, because most of the ones mentioned on the original KFA post where either unviable (tying him with infantry for example XD ), applied to a selected few armies (making a gunline with 3+ cannons) or forced you to "lose" (castling and not moving against an army with warmachines).

I just don't agree with this at all. Yes, he is tough to beat and will require some thought and good play, but even with an infantry heavy list my strategy against him with my armies would be to focus on the other threats in the army whilst denying him favourable charges.

Have you used flying models with a 150x100 base? Careful deployment can make it very hard to get legal charges on units, use smaller units interspersed through your army to block his positioning (I would do this with skeleton horse archers in my Tomb Kings).

You have warmachine hunters right? You can take out any cannons he has and if you can put off KF from being in combat until turn 3, then he is very unlikely to get through that fight with time left in the game to re-align, charge and beat a second unit. I'm not saying it's easy, but saying stuff like it's now "rock-paper-KFA" is just daft, as if seeing him deployed on the other side of the table is just an autolose for some armies (although this may be the case for ogres, I can't see too many ways around him for them apart from roll first turn and get lucky with Ironblasters).

I would rather fight him than a nurgle DP (as that is rougher on my TK, purple sun and all that). KFA can just be challenged out all day.

daftpunkevo
07-11-2014, 15:07
I just don't agree with this at all. Yes, he is tough to beat and will require some thought and good play, but even with an infantry heavy list my strategy against him with my armies would be to focus on the other threats in the army whilst denying him favourable charges.

Have you used flying models with a 150x100 base? Careful deployment can make it very hard to get legal charges on units, use smaller units interspersed through your army to block his positioning (I would do this with skeleton horse archers in my Tomb Kings).

You have warmachine hunters right? You can take out any cannons he has and if you can put off KF from being in combat until turn 3, then he is very unlikely to get through that fight with time left in the game to re-align, charge and beat a second unit. I'm not saying it's easy, but saying stuff like it's now "rock-paper-KFA" is just daft, as if seeing him deployed on the other side of the table is just an autolose for some armies (although this may be the case for ogres, I can't see too many ways around him for them apart from roll first turn and get lucky with Ironblasters).

I would rather fight him than a nurgle DP (as that is rougher on my TK, purple sun and all that). KFA can just be challenged out all day.

Yeah but... Did you notice KFA is NOT on 150x100 but 60x100... ?