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View Full Version : Help WoC vs High Elves ETC 2500p



Bronhoms
02-11-2014, 18:42
I am playing a battle against a high elves player tomorrow, I've never played high elves before. I live in Denmark, so tomorrow is in 5 hours, then I need to get some sleep and then there's the fight.

Any advice on how to combate the high elves or what units to pick, even a fixed army list, would be of great help.

It's ETC restrictions, so there's no unkillable bsb or crazy DP with flying, lvl 4 wizard, scaly skin, soul feeder, other tricksters shard and dragonbane gem/dragonhelm.

Neither can I fit festus in there to save my Warriors from some shooting.

Rules
http://braggingrightswhfb.tumblr.com/ETC

Thanks in advance!

N00B
02-11-2014, 23:12
OK. I am not the best person to answer this usually playing it the other way round. No one else has answered so I will have a go.

Consider a Tzeench Daemon Prince. Demon + Tzeench gives a solid 4+ ward save, third eye improves this. Opal trinket boosts the save vs spells - useful for shems and banishment but also metal and heavens spells and doesnt violate comp. Tzeench isnt a great lore but it is pretty effective vs elves due to their low toughness. The comp tightening on banner of the world dragon also helps. Add charmed shield to round out defensive package. With mobility and standard stuff like soul feeder this should be pretty survivable.

Chimeras are good - their breath weapon can be brutal vs low T units but watch out for arrows of Isha.

Expect to see white lion block still. They may not be as well supported but the comp doesnt stop these too hard and they are still very nasty vs chaos. With possible BotWD in there and little good shooting in your army it is best to avoid the block if you can. If you do need a desperate attempt to destroy the unit try treason of tzeench + terror charge. Do this only if necessary.

Bronhoms
02-11-2014, 23:29
OK. I am not the best person to answer this usually playing it the other way round. No one else has answered so I will have a go.

Consider a Tzeench Daemon Prince. Demon + Tzeench gives a solid 4+ ward save, third eye improves this. Opal trinket boosts the save vs spells - useful for shems and banishment but also metal and heavens spells and doesnt violate comp. Tzeench isnt a great lore but it is pretty effective vs elves due to their low toughness. The comp tightening on banner of the world dragon also helps. Add charmed shield to round out defensive package. With mobility and standard stuff like soul feeder this should be pretty survivable.
Tzeentch Daemon gives reroll on 1's to any ward save, and rerollable 1's when channeling. It's not the same as Mark of Tzeentch, it's Daemon of Tzeentch. It also gives Hatred (Daemons of Nurgle) which is pretty useless against High Elves I guess :P

I think I am going for the Tzeentch Daemon Prince though. It's between that and a Hellfiresword Lord with some Warriors.

I can choose Lore of Metal instead of lore of Tzeentch on the Daemon Prince though, wouldn't that be preferable?


Chimeras are good - their breath weapon can be brutal vs low T units but watch out for arrows of Isha.

Expect to see white lion block still. They may not be as well supported but the comp doesnt stop these too hard and they are still very nasty vs chaos. With possible BotWD in there and little good shooting in your army it is best to avoid the block if you can. If you do need a desperate attempt to destroy the unit try treason of tzeench + terror charge. Do this only if necessary.
So how many warhound units do you suggest?

CountUlrich
03-11-2014, 00:16
Tz demon prince, chaos armor, flight, scaly skin, Charmed shield, ots, luckstone

Take the max 3 core chariots and a gorebeast chariot as well and work to get them into the inevitable BotWD unit he will have.

N00B
03-11-2014, 00:32
Tzeentch Daemon gives reroll on 1's to any ward save, and rerollable 1's when channeling. It's not the same as Mark of Tzeentch, it's Daemon of Tzeentch. It also gives Hatred (Daemons of Nurgle) which is pretty useless against High Elves I guess :P

I think I am going for the Tzeentch Daemon Prince though. It's between that and a Hellfiresword Lord with some Warriors.

I can choose Lore of Metal instead of lore of Tzeentch on the Daemon Prince though, wouldn't that be preferable?


So how many warhound units do you suggest?


Not sure how I missed that on Tzeench DP. Silly me.


Lore of Metal on DP is good but I worry about it for two reasons. Its situational anti armour spells are great but HE either tend to not have much armour, be knights or be characters. If they are knights then they could be Dragon Princes with 2+ ward vs fire. If they are characters they have a good chance of sporting a 2+ ward save vs fire as well. Then of course there is still the banner of the world dragon that can be floating around...

The lightly armoured units dont suffer so much from lowering armour as most of your attacks will be strong enough to not worry about a 5+ save anyway. Scaly skin on the other hand is pretty nice for warriors. Finally final transmutation is nerfed by the comp so the lore is a bit less desirable.

Bronhoms
03-11-2014, 01:55
Here's what I ended up with, now it's 3 am and I better get to bed. I have a few hours to review it again, so if you have any ammendments, or advice on how to use the units for their best, please drop it in. Otherwise, thanks for your input (I chose not to go for the chariots because I dislike chariots for stupid reasons).

Lords (515pts)

Daemon Prince (515pts)Daemonic Attacks, Daemonic Invulnerability, Terror, Thunderstomp, Unbreakable
Chaos armour (20pts), Daemon of Tzeentch (15pts) (*, Hatred), Daemonic Flight (40pts) (*, Fly, Swiftstride), Lore of Tzeentch, Wizard Level 4 (140pts)


Chaos Mutations & Powers (50pts)Flaming Breath (30pts) (Breath Weapons), Soul Feeder (10pts) (*), Third Eye of Tzeentch (10pts) (*)

Magic Items (15pts)BRB - The Other Trickster's Shard (15pts)


Heroes (406pts)

Exalted Hero (231pts)Eye of the Gods
Battle Standard Bearer (25pts), Halberd (6pts), Mark of Nurgle (10pts) (*)


Chaos Mutations & Powers (10pts)Nurgle's Rot (10pts) (*)

Magic Items (30pts)BRB - Obsidian Amulet (30pts)

Palanquin of Nurgle (40pts)Palanquin of Nurgle (Daemonic Attacks, Fear, Stomp, Swiftstride)


Exalted Hero (175pts)Eye of the Gods
Mark of Khorne (10pts) (Mark of Khorne (FAQ'ed))


Chaos Mutations & Powers (15pts)Poisonous Slime (15pts) (Poisoned Attacks, *)

Magic Items (40pts)BRB - Crown of Command (35pts), BRB - Enchanted Shield (5pts)


Core (719pts)

Chaos Warhounds (40pts)Swiftstride


5x Chaos Warhound (40pts)5x Vanguard special rule (10pts) (Vanguard (FAQ'ed))


Chaos Warriors (397pts)Champion (10pts) (Eye of the Gods), Musician (10pts)


18x Chaos Warrior (342pts)18x Halberds (54pts), 18x Mark of Khorne (36pts) (Mark of Khorne (FAQ'ed))

Standard Bearer (35pts)AB - Banner of Rage (Khorne only) (25pts)


Chaos Warriors (282pts)Champion (10pts) (Eye of the Gods), 18x Chaos Warrior (252pts), Musician (10pts), Standard Bearer (10pts)

Rare (504pts)

Mutalith Vortex Beast (240pts)Aura of Mutation, Large Target, Random Attacks, Regeneration (5+), Scaly Skin (4+), Terror, Thunderstomp

Skullcrushers of Khorne (264pts)Fear
Champion (10pts) (Eye of the Gods), Juggernaut of Khorne (Brass Behemoth, Daemonic Attacks, Fear, Murderous Charge, Stomp, Swiftstride), Musician (10pts), Standard Bearer (10pts)


3x Skullcrusher (234pts)Mark of Khorne (FAQ'ed)
3x Ensorcelled weapons (9pts)


Special (355pts)

Chaos Knights (220pts)Fear
Barded Chaos Steed (Swiftstride)


5x Chaos Knight (220pts)5x Lances (10pts), 5x Mark of Nurgle (10pts) (*)


Chaos Warshrine (135pts)Favour of the Ruinous Powers, Fear, Giver of Glory, Protection of the Dark Gods, War Platform
Chaos Shrine Bearers (Random Attacks), Mark of Tzeentch (10pts) (*)

CountUlrich
03-11-2014, 02:06
You seriously need chariots for the invariable BotWD - they will have a 2+ ward against any attacks from either your demon prince or skullcrushers. Knights are overpriced. Your demon prince needs a charm shield to help against the bolt throwers.

Bronhoms
03-11-2014, 09:39
I could swap swap the knight for 2 chariots and give the ceushers lances over ensorc. weapons, which would leave points for a charmed shield om the DP. I will ask if he has a chariot model i can use.

pinktaco
03-11-2014, 10:21
Your list is very fluffy. How tough is your opponent because you've invested in some rather.. Non-competitive choices.

Bronhoms
03-11-2014, 16:48
Dont know my opponent, about to face him now. I know its not the netbuild, but that would be boring

N00B
03-11-2014, 21:13
The vortex beast is brave... I would prefer a shagoth.

Bronhoms
04-11-2014, 20:17
The vortex beast is brave... I would prefer a shagoth.
the Vortex Beast was one of my better choices imo. The toughnesstest bound spell worked pretty well. We didn't have time to finish the battle, because we were slow and the place we played was closing. Here's a quick round up:

I went first and ****ed up deployment quite badly. I put my Skullcrushers and MoK Warriors (instead of my Nurgle (where my BSB was)) in the middle (there was 2 forests on either side and some impassable terrain on the rightside of the middle). So the bigger block and the BSB had to go around the terrain, which they never got to.

My beast went inside the leftside forest and took down some chaff and some elves with his spell. Warshrine was on the right side of the MoK warriors protecting theyr flank from boltthrowers and block chaff, which went pretty well.

The downside is that he still got some fastcav in and my Skullcrushers charged them leaving the flank just open enough for his general and BSB (with that stupid no-armoursave lance) to charge out of their unit of Silver Helms and break them :(

Right side my Knights put a wound on the Phoenix and kept it at bay for a round or two while the DP threw a few spells and charged and ANNIHALATED 20-25 archers and would have run into a Bolt Thrower, if it wasn't for the game ending.

His bsb overran into my khorne warriors who had been considerably weakened by high lore and his

He was a better player than me, so I feel no shame in losing (which I'd say I did) and the lists were probably equal, so no BotWD for him, wooh.

I would have done better with 2 chariots instead of my knights, but a Shaggoth over the beast wouldn't.


Your list is very fluffy. How tough is your opponent because you've invested in some rather.. Non-competitive choices.

The day I play competitive, I'll play a more competitive list too. I don't like etc, not because it removes the ability to be very fluffy. This list wasn't that fluffy, do you mean the palanquin? It's elves, they hate armorsaves and have no toughness, so I thought 6 s6 attacks would be fine.

pinktaco
04-11-2014, 22:20
Here's what I ended up with, now it's 3 am and I better get to bed. I have a few hours to review it again, so if you have any ammendments, or advice on how to use the units for their best, please drop it in. Otherwise, thanks for your input (I chose not to go for the chariots because I dislike chariots for stupid reasons).

Lords (515pts)



Daemon Prince (515pts)Daemonic Attacks, Daemonic Invulnerability, Terror, Thunderstomp, Unbreakable
Chaos armour (20pts), Daemon of Tzeentch (15pts) (*, Hatred), Daemonic Flight (40pts) (*, Fly, Swiftstride), Lore of Tzeentch, Wizard Level 4 (140pts)

Chaos Mutations & Powers (50pts)Flaming Breath (30pts) (Breath Weapons), Soul Feeder (10pts) (*), Third Eye of Tzeentch (10pts) (*)
Magic Items (15pts)BRB - The Other Trickster's Shard (15pts)


Heroes (406pts)



Exalted Hero (231pts)Eye of the Gods
Battle Standard Bearer (25pts), Halberd (6pts), Mark of Nurgle (10pts) (*)

Chaos Mutations & Powers (10pts)Nurgle's Rot (10pts) (*)
Magic Items (30pts)BRB - Obsidian Amulet (30pts)
Palanquin of Nurgle (40pts)Palanquin of Nurgle (Daemonic Attacks, Fear, Stomp, Swiftstride)


Exalted Hero (175pts)Eye of the Gods
Mark of Khorne (10pts) (Mark of Khorne (FAQ'ed))

Chaos Mutations & Powers (15pts)Poisonous Slime (15pts) (Poisoned Attacks, *)
Magic Items (40pts)BRB - Crown of Command (35pts), BRB - Enchanted Shield (5pts)


Core (719pts)



Chaos Warhounds (40pts)Swiftstride

5x Chaos Warhound (40pts)5x Vanguard special rule (10pts) (Vanguard (FAQ'ed))


Chaos Warriors (397pts)Champion (10pts) (Eye of the Gods), Musician (10pts)

18x Chaos Warrior (342pts)18x Halberds (54pts), 18x Mark of Khorne (36pts) (Mark of Khorne (FAQ'ed))
Standard Bearer (35pts)AB - Banner of Rage (Khorne only) (25pts)


Chaos Warriors (282pts)Champion (10pts) (Eye of the Gods), 18x Chaos Warrior (252pts), Musician (10pts), Standard Bearer (10pts)

Rare (504pts)



Mutalith Vortex Beast (240pts)Aura of Mutation, Large Target, Random Attacks, Regeneration (5+), Scaly Skin (4+), Terror, Thunderstomp
Skullcrushers of Khorne (264pts)Fear
Champion (10pts) (Eye of the Gods), Juggernaut of Khorne (Brass Behemoth, Daemonic Attacks, Fear, Murderous Charge, Stomp, Swiftstride), Musician (10pts), Standard Bearer (10pts)

3x Skullcrusher (234pts)Mark of Khorne (FAQ'ed)
3x Ensorcelled weapons (9pts)


Special (355pts)



Chaos Knights (220pts)Fear
Barded Chaos Steed (Swiftstride)

5x Chaos Knight (220pts)5x Lances (10pts), 5x Mark of Nurgle (10pts) (*)


Chaos Warshrine (135pts)Favour of the Ruinous Powers, Fear, Giver of Glory, Protection of the Dark Gods, War Platform
Chaos Shrine Bearers (Random Attacks), Mark of Tzeentch (10pts) (*)




Alright it doesn't have to be "competitive" in order to be good/more balanced.

For instance - what's with the 500+pts lord and being somewhat weak. OTS is random. You've made a character who can combat ward save, but cannot defeat a proper combat character should he be needed to do so. Gaining a 1+ armour save isn't hard and is IMO needed.

You then have you BSB all alone. Nurgles rot and the amulet are both sucky choices. Sorry to say. What exactly is his purpose? To stay back and give rerolls? .

Then there's the other hero. CoC isn't needed too badly with Chaos IMO. You'll most likely dish out so much damage that you'll be sticking around. Your greatest threat will be to lose the long fight/grind war or if you're up against impact hits/thunderstomps. Still though putting a CoC with warriors isn't needed most of the time the way I see it.

Banner of rage isn't really that needed.

The mutalith vortex is a fun choice, fair enoug.

The chaos warchrine is, from my understanding, best used in combination with Chosen. That'll allow them to have a greater influence on what they get.


So tbh it's not even a fluffy list, it's just full with unnecessary choice and lacks a coherent strategy with what you want to do. At least from my point of view. You can very easily make a fluffy list and have it be effective. No need to be scared of what others do, but you'll definately need to see a greater goal. What should each unit do and how should they work together. It's kinda feels like you've randomly picked units from the book without much thoughts.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, I don't want to come off that way, but I definately think you can make a good non-competitive list with a better overall plan.

Also exact points isn't allowed on any forums AFAIK :)

Bronhoms
05-11-2014, 21:32
Alright it doesn't have to be "competitive" in order to be good/more balanced.

For instance - what's with the 500+pts lord and being somewhat weak. OTS is random. You've made a character who can combat ward save, but cannot defeat a proper combat character should he be needed to do so. Gaining a 1+ armour save isn't hard and is IMO needed.

You then have you BSB all alone. Nurgles rot and the amulet are both sucky choices. Sorry to say. What exactly is his purpose? To stay back and give rerolls? .

Then there's the other hero. CoC isn't needed too badly with Chaos IMO. You'll most likely dish out so much damage that you'll be sticking around. Your greatest threat will be to lose the long fight/grind war or if you're up against impact hits/thunderstomps. Still though putting a CoC with warriors isn't needed most of the time the way I see it.

Banner of rage isn't really that needed.

The mutalith vortex is a fun choice, fair enoug.

The chaos warchrine is, from my understanding, best used in combination with Chosen. That'll allow them to have a greater influence on what they get.


So tbh it's not even a fluffy list, it's just full with unnecessary choice and lacks a coherent strategy with what you want to do. At least from my point of view. You can very easily make a fluffy list and have it be effective. No need to be scared of what others do, but you'll definately need to see a greater goal. What should each unit do and how should they work together. It's kinda feels like you've randomly picked units from the book without much thoughts.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, I don't want to come off that way, but I definately think you can make a good non-competitive list with a better overall plan.

Also exact points isn't allowed on any forums AFAIK :)
I was planning on on putting my DP up against his phoenix, which he of course did bring, or some other unit with WS. The tricksters a hard might have been a bit random. He did get a shield in the end.
My bsb wasn't alone, he was in the nurgle warrior unit. The elves all have low T, and nurgles rot fittet in at last adjustments. The amulet gives my entire nurgle unit a 5+ WS against spells. I was very afraid of his magic phase.
The warshrine has 4+3+ saves, t5 w5 and a boatload of attacks, along with making you able to control EotG rolls. It's a great unit, and I had 2 exalted heroes around it.

Having played the game I would probably have removed the khorne warriors and fittet in something else.

Your conclusion on the randomness is wrong, and I didn't really try to be fluffy. Your analysis might be good enough though, it's not optimal, and some choices should probably have been changed, like the knights. But I've only played a hand full of games or so, so I'm not ashamed :-P