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TheBearminator
03-11-2014, 11:56
Today pretty much everyone would agree it's Eldar that are in serious need of a nerf. But historically, which is the most overpowered codex?

And the easter egg. Which is the most underpowered codex ever? :)

Wesser
03-11-2014, 12:07
Hard to say

My Imperial Guard buddy used to say that my Speed Freaks were heinously OP back in 4th (he didn't like Outriders shooting down one unit, assaulting and killing another and consolidating into a third before he even got his 1st turn... oh and Fighterbomma-raid :))

My vote is for present Eldar. The game has become a lot more unbalanced now that assault almost isn't a thing, so the armies that shoot best these days are the most OP ever. Conversely Chaos Space Marines are looking truly pitiful these days there being very little normal Space Marines can't do better (and they aren't even stellar)

Latro_
03-11-2014, 12:20
i dunno eldar had it bad for a very very long time.

I dont think there is a 'all time' overpowered, armies have consistently been crap then amazing.

Like: nidzilla used to be amazing - now nids are a mediocre shooty army
chaos in 3rd used to have 4 heavy support and infiltrating chaos lords of doom - now meh average
etc etc

You could argue Dark Eldar have always had a bit of the rougher end of the stick
Sisters have of never been great
Orks have always been consistently mediocre (except during the nob bikers phase)

Ironbone
03-11-2014, 12:23
Most op dex ? Uuuu, hard competition between 3.5 CSM and 3rd ed Nekrons dex. Ultimetly, i thnik tin cans will top, but just very slightly. This army was back then just awful to play agianst. Rules that were based armound idea "we have rules that everyone have to obey deep inside our robot chassis", like one shooting vechicles with gauss, or We'll be bacj to screw up with anyone who tried to fight them. And yeah, army of relentless deatch machines that run on the table like mad speed freak.

CSM wasn't much better either. IW Oblits spam. Deamonbomb. FnP berzerkers with chianaxes. And DP rape machines. Either khorne or slanneshi with siren power ( imagine invisibility, just worse ).

Most underpowerd Dex ? Well, guard prior to 5ed dex have preety hard time. 3rd ed DH and Wh dexies prior to updates too. Definietly not current CSM dex. As much as people like to rant about it it's not that bad powerwise.

Bloodknight
03-11-2014, 12:32
You could argue Dark Eldar have always had a bit of the rougher end of the stick


Nah, Kabalite armies were great in 4th edition and Wych Cults in 5th (or was it the other way round, it's been a while). Only their first printing codex sucked terribly, and even then it wasn't the powerlevel, it was because they had like 3 unit types that were not subpar, but those were good.


Uuuu, hard competition between 3.5 CSM and 3rd ed Nekrons dex.

2nd edition Eldar. CSM 3.5 is nothing against that one.

Ironbone
03-11-2014, 12:43
Well, I never played against 2ed eldar :p. None 2ed cex in fact. But i remember palying against 3.5 CSM and 3 ed Nekrons, and these aren't pleasing memories :p.

Lord Damocles
03-11-2014, 12:57
Well it's a pretty simple contest between Chaos 3.5, Craftworld Eldar, and 2nd ed. Eldar .

A.T.
03-11-2014, 13:02
i dunno eldar had it bad for a very very long time.Every edition save for 5th has been good for them, and even then they didn't start out bad so much as fade in the wake of the codex one-upsmanship.



And the easter egg. Which is the most underpowered codex ever? :)3rd edition pre-WH sisters of battle, back when sisters were BS3 and had no faith, the exorcist was a krak missile launcher on a rhino, and repentia were 40pts for a 2 wound model in carapace armour with a bolt pistol and cc weapon (and no armoury access).

.. that having been said the 2nd ed SoB actually came with several disclaimers from the author warning players against taking a pure sisters list in competitive games.

Angelwing
03-11-2014, 13:24
Well it's a pretty simple contest between Chaos 3.5, Craftworld Eldar, and 2nd ed. Eldar .
Agreed, although I'd add 5th ed grey knights to the list based on the stupid and anti fun stuff all these books could pull.



.. that having been said the 2nd ed SoB actually came with several disclaimers from the author warning players against taking a pure sisters list in competitive games.

Yes, Gav says you would really struggle due to the lack of psykers and heavy support. It was really written with allies in mind, either with or to be taken as. I ran pure sisters and did okay. I sometimes ran them with adeptus arbites / inquisition / adeptus mechanicus or squat allies and they did much better. I would say its certainly one of the weakest stand alone codexes, but offered powerful allied combinations.


3rd ed necrons certainly had plenty of bite. People often refused to play against mine. However they got absolutely knackered by the 4th and 5th ed main rule changes. Surprising how many people wanted to play against them then even though it was the same codex....:rolleyes:

Bloodknight
03-11-2014, 13:59
That reminds me of 2nd ed. Necrons with their ugly special rules.

It was really nice when a squad of Scarabs charged your people. Not only did they add to-hit modifiers to the shooting units next to them which made it hard to shoot at the other Necs (if you were allowed to anyway since the 2nd. edition target priority rules forced you to shoot at the closest target) they also were T8 and shut down the energized equipment of the unit they were in combat with. Yes, that meant Power Fists, too. You needed a basic S5 or a primitive weapon that got you to S5 to even try hurting them and they had a 2+ armor save. They also ate tank armor.
I hated fighting them. No wonder Sanctuary 101 fell so easily, the Sisters never had a chance (the whole Sanctuary 101 fluff story comes from a battle report in '97).

HelloKitty
03-11-2014, 14:06
3rd - eldar (starcannon spam) & blood angels
3.5 - chaos
5th - grey knights

All four of those were grossly dominant in the tournament world. While opinion based, I would rank all of the above as more powerful than the current eldar are. I once watched a blood angels game where the blood angels player wiped out his opponent in three turns and not a single gun was fired.

Ironbone
03-11-2014, 14:07
Well, nekrons rules were always aimed to abuse or bypass core RB rules :p. Not much changed to today in that department.

Cheeslord
03-11-2014, 14:42
Remember when 5th edition Grey Knights codex came out? The world truly trembled with rage....

... and Mattward became an adjective ...

Mark.

HelloKitty
03-11-2014, 15:25
Yep. Grey Knights were one of the most powerful codices ever upon release and stayed there until 6th dropped. Late 5th edition was a celebration of the color grey - necrons, grey knights, space wolves. The three armies you saw most of the time. When I came back to the game at the tail end of 5th, a group of us stopped at a tournament to see what the scene was like and literally every army there was one of those three.

gwarsh41
03-11-2014, 15:56
What killed the leafblower list?

Ironbone
03-11-2014, 16:30
Kicking Medusas out of the codex :) ?

TheBearminator
03-11-2014, 16:59
Remember when 5th edition Grey Knights codex came out? The world truly trembled with rage....

... and Mattward became an adjective ...

Mark.

And a verb. I remember reading people hoping their armies would be 'mattwarded' with their next update. :)

Lord Damocles
03-11-2014, 17:15
What killed the leafblower list?
The original 'leafblower' list was never that great to begin with.

It's success was based largely on being at a high points level, and going first in every game.


'Leafblower' was usually used to describe any Imperial Guard mechanised list. The introduction of hull points largely depowered those.

Azulthar
03-11-2014, 17:18
Another vote for 5th edition Grey Knights.

Eldar 2nd edition would be my second vote. I wouldn't put much stock in that vote though, seeing how I was relatively new to the hobby back then.

Scribe of Khorne
03-11-2014, 17:18
What killed the leafblower list?

Not playing on barren tables at broken points levels (2K-2500).

insectum7
03-11-2014, 17:48
I never had much problem handling Eldar in 2nd, but it might have been the players. Space Wolves in 2nd were worse, IMO, I think every Wolf Guard in Terminator armor could get an Assault Cannon AND a Cyclone Missile Launcher for a while. Whereas the best solution against an Eldar Exarch was to just set them on fire.

Chaos 3.5 could be pretty irritating, but I thought Starcannon spam w/Seer Councils or Blood Angels were worse. BA wins out for me in third, probably Chaos 3.5 for fourth.

I didn't play much during 5th, and never fought against Grey Knights at the height of their power, but it's still a dumb codex.

6th? Eldar I think. Maybe 7th too.

Of all time? I think Craftworld Eldar or 3rd ed BA. Possibly Grey Knights but I have no actual experience with them from 5th.

Vaktathi
03-11-2014, 18:20
Today pretty much everyone would agree it's Eldar that are in serious need of a nerf. But historically, which is the most overpowered codex?

And the easter egg. Which is the most underpowered codex ever? :)I think Eldar have historically been the most consistently overpowered. In 2nd edition they were so heinous they largely broke the burgeoning tournament scene (which, to be fair, was pretty whacky to begin with) and were supposedly a large reason for several of the major mechanic changes from 2nd to 3rd. In 3rd they were super strong, invinciskimmers and disruption tables and starcannons galore. 4th again they were top tier, invinciskimmers again and flying circus and the like. 5th they weren't on top but that's really the only edition. 6th put them right back up there.

As for the single most overpowered codex? There's a good number of candidates, I think 2E Eldar is probably the best candidate. 3E Necrons during 3E and 4E were pretty insane, 3.5E CSM could be pretty abusive, 3E and 4E Eldar were, as noted, pretty hard as well.

Most underpowered? 3.5E Imperial Guard and maybe the Sisters of Battle list?


The original 'leafblower' list was never that great to begin with.

It's success was based largely on being at a high points level, and going first in every game.


'Leafblower' was usually used to describe any Imperial Guard mechanised list. The introduction of hull points largely depowered those.
This for sure, the whole "leafblower" term was absurd, and got tossed at any IG list with a Chimera. HP's kicked the legs out from under mechanized non-skimmer armies instantly by reducing average vehicle lifespan by half, and the latest IG codex made them even less impressive.

wyvirn
03-11-2014, 20:08
It's not a codex per se, but the Citadel Journel army of Genestealer Cult was Emperor awful. It was like a nerfed guardsman codex; you could buy grenades that were one use only and prevented sweeping advances.

Wonderwolf
03-11-2014, 20:42
3rd - Eldar Star Cannon Spam
3.5 Chaos
4th - Nob Bikers, Cheese Falcons
5th - Long Fang Spam

But Chaos 3.5 probably takes the cake. Never before and never after has GW put out such an ill-conceived, broken and bloated crud of a book. Still makes the wackiest unbound you see today seem sane in comparison.

ehlijen
03-11-2014, 20:42
I'd say it was 3.5 chaos, specifically the Siren psychic power. Cast it (by passing a ld 10 test) and the enemy could not shoot or charge the psyker, which could be a super nasty deamon prince or biker lord. Rush up with a deamonic beacon to let everyone deepstrike right in the middle of the enemy and charge on arrival with bloodletters or deamonettes (both much more powerful back then).

It was a random table of powers, but a) that doesn't make the power balanced and b) you could buy as many rolls on the table as you wanted. Few people played it around here because it was so broken, not even the power gamers (who stuck with IWs or selectively misreading the World eaters rules).

insectum7
03-11-2014, 20:43
It's not a codex per se, but the Citadel Journel army of Genestealer Cult was Emperor awful. It was like a nerfed guardsman codex; you could buy grenades that were one use only and prevented sweeping advances.

And then compare that to the Citadel Journal Harlequin Codex, with their Solitaires and super-bonus attacks on the charge. I think it was +1 for every inch of a 12 inch charge not used?

TheFang
03-11-2014, 21:16
Space Wolves in 2nd were worse, IMO, I think every Wolf Guard in Terminator armor could get an Assault Cannon AND a Cyclone Missile Launcher for a while.

I played Wolves under that army list and I've only seen one miniature with that load-out which was made as a joke. I've certainly never seen an army based on it.
I'd say it was 3.5 chaos, specifically the Siren psychic power.
This.
And then compare that to the Citadel Journal Harlequin Codex, with their Solitaires and super-bonus attacks on the charge. I think it was +1 for every inch of a 12 inch charge not used?
Without checking didn't the Harlequin list came with a disclaimer of how broken it was?

insectum7
03-11-2014, 21:32
I played Wolves under that army list and I've only seen one miniature with that load-out which was made as a joke. I've certainly never seen an army based on it.

While I didn't see an actual model with both weapons, I'm pretty sure I encoutered the unit once or twice. I definitely saw and played against Some Wolf Guard with many Cyclones in a single unit, at least five? Nor was it an isolated incident either. Somehow that was more offensive to me than what was in the Eldar Codex, which I thought was a little more balanced, if irritating.



Without checking didn't the Harlequin list came with a disclaimer of how broken it was?

I don't know, but that'd be a sign though wouldn't it? :P

A.T.
03-11-2014, 22:23
Without checking didn't the Harlequin list came with a disclaimer of how broken it was?Just a disclaimer that it was experimental and untested, assuming you are talking about the Gav Thrope dex from 2000.

The solitaire had up to 18 power blade attacks on the charge, could only be hit on a 6 (domino field), and could theoretically move 66" in a single game turn, on foot, killing two units up to 18" apart in the process.

Rai_st
03-11-2014, 22:35
I came on here to see who remembered 2nd ed wolves. :) My 2nd ed army was 18 models at 1500 points - I had three assualt cannons and 2 cyclone missile launchers. The rest had storm bolters, power weapons powerfist and chainfists. Sorry - there was one guy with a heavy flamer and powerweapon. The 18th was my rune priest with a rune weapon and strm bolter.

That army could take hordes, tanks, MEQ, GEQ - it did not matter. I might not win, I often didn't, but I always had a good chance.

Every single one is metal and looks like crap now - times a bitch for those old models.

insectum7
03-11-2014, 22:50
I came on here to see who remembered 2nd ed wolves. :) My 2nd ed army was 18 models at 1500 points - I had three assualt cannons and 2 cyclone missile launchers. The rest had storm bolters, power weapons powerfist and chainfists. Sorry - there was one guy with a heavy flamer and powerweapon. The 18th was my rune priest with a rune weapon and strm bolter.

That army could take hordes, tanks, MEQ, GEQ - it did not matter. I might not win, I often didn't, but I always had a good chance.

Every single one is metal and looks like crap now - times a bitch for those old models.

Ah HAH!!! You sure you didn't play around the bay area? :)

Zustiur
03-11-2014, 23:02
I have to agree that 2nd ed space wolves were the most broken of all time. For anyone not familiar with 2nd ed... cyclones were different back then. Imagine a squad all firing apocalyptic blasts on turn one and you'll start to see the problem.

It doesn't matter if you never saw someone use that combination, it's still the most op codex because it was possible.

Sent via Tapatalk 2

A.T.
03-11-2014, 23:31
It doesn't matter if you never saw someone use that combination, it's still the most op codex because it was possible.For only a few points more than a wolf guard with a cyclone you could buy an exarch with swooping hawk wings and a vortex grenade - the poor space wolves wouldn't have a chance.

2nd edition was a very silly edition when it came down to it.

TheBearminator
03-11-2014, 23:51
Interesting discussion. I expected to hear some whining about grey knights and I know eldar has been a pain in the butt even before. However that was kinda before my time, as I switched from fantasy somewhere around this dreaded 3.5 chaos era. Never encountered that either though, since I only played against my friends. This is a valuable history lesson to me.

But please people, don't forget the easter egg. Worst codices ever? I heard someone say 3.5 IG? I own the codex but didn't start playing them until later. What was so awful about them back then, except that they couldn't squad up their vehicles?

insectum7
04-11-2014, 00:44
For only a few points more than a wolf guard with a cyclone you could buy an exarch with swooping hawk wings and a vortex grenade - the poor space wolves wouldn't have a chance.

2nd edition was a very silly edition when it came down to it.

Vortex was only a small blast and you'd have to get a good roll to have it wipe out the squad in a subsequent turn, and to be fair, pretty much any army could do something similar with it. The Wolves could be on overwatch too, and the Exarch would be paste.

Speaking of giant blasts though, remember Pulsa Rokkits? Turn one your whole army falls over and it can't move.

Ironbone
04-11-2014, 03:14
But please people, don't forget the easter egg. Worst codices ever? I heard someone say 3.5 IG? I own the codex but didn't start playing them until later. What was so awful about them back then, except that they couldn't squad up their vehicles?
3.5 IG wasn't that bad, at least during most of it's regin. There was some stuff hilaroius by today standards ( like 85 pts chimera that tured Open topend if you fired from tha hatch ), but overall it was playable throu most of 4th ed. Just in late 4th and in 5th it start to turn *realy* lackluster, no small part thanks to kill points. Demonhunters codex in that era was ceartainly harder to play competetivly.

Vaktathi
04-11-2014, 05:07
The 3.5 codex was pretty bad, most of the vehicles were horrifically overcosted (as noted, the 85pt naked Chimera) and/or under-capable (e.g. Leman Russ tanks that couldn't shoot anything else if they shot their turret weapon at all and had weaker side armor, Hellhounds that weren't Fast and only hit the models under their template on a 4+), and the infantry were likewise largely the same (expensive infantry, more expensive weapons upgrades, etc), no Orders, etc. The book was pretty bad, especially in 4th, particularly against Xenos and CSM armies.

The only cool thing was the customization options with Doctrines that made for pretty characterful armies. That was neat. But man, that book couldn't fight it's way out of a paper bag. :p

Abaraxas
04-11-2014, 07:00
2nd edition was a very silly edition when it came down to it.

People are silly, more like it.

I play 2nd edition regularly (just had a 2000pt game this weekend) and fiendish cheese like a battery of pulsa rokkits or exploitation of a loophole ( assault cannon & whirlwind ) which is clearly not what was intended is not cool at all- I actually like the guys I play against and want to play against them again and again (and I'd like to think that applies in reverse) so shanking one of them just to get a win doesn't really enter into it.
Getting a fully painted army on a proper table is winning anyway :p

Losing Command
04-11-2014, 07:24
For me the Chaos marine 3.5 codex was the most overpowerd piece of cheesebeard ever. It might have something to do with me just getting into 40k at the time, but I remember a lot of "wait that unit/model does WHAT ?!" happening :p

The most consistend OP award would go to Eldar. They always get their invulnerable skimmers and more than enough tricks to deal with whatever is on the table without much danger to themselves.

TheBearminator
04-11-2014, 08:51
Yeah, I think it's a sad thing for the game and the hobby that it's the eldar skimmers once again that are so awfully balanced. I wonder what they had in mind when they wrote the serpent part of the overall already very powerful codex.

Vaktathi
04-11-2014, 09:30
Well, personally I'd say there's just a huge gap between Skimmers and tracked/walker vehicles in general, and unfortunately with GW, that seems to be a thing common to every edition except 5th. Eldar just seem to be the worst abusers, and Phil Kelly apparently didn't learn his lesson with the 2006 book :p

A.T.
04-11-2014, 09:57
But please people, don't forget the easter egg. Worst codices ever?You'd have a hard time outdoing the original 3rd ed BS3 sisters as they were simply heavily gimped space marines - somewhat worse point for point in the shooting phase and roadkill in the assault phase.

Azulthar
04-11-2014, 12:00
I expected to hear some whining about grey knights
How does mentioning the 5th edition Grey Knight codex in a thread asking about the most overpowered codex constitute as whining? :confused:

TheBearminator
04-11-2014, 13:22
How does mentioning the 5th edition Grey Knight codex in a thread asking about the most overpowered codex constitute as whining? :confused:

Haha! No offence mate! It's just that according to some members we do nothing but whine on warseeer. :) And yes, they were far too brutal.

Horus38
04-11-2014, 14:10
I've seen CW: Eldar pop up a fair bit in this thread. I started the game in 3rd but never really saw this supplement fully leveraged, what were the OP builds - Aspect warrior spam (fire dragons I assume) / giant seer council?

Bloodknight
04-11-2014, 14:18
Saim Hann Starcannon Spam and the idiotic Alaitoc Rangers, particularly their table of "I kill you before you get deployed"-ness.

Lord Damocles
04-11-2014, 14:29
Ulthwe did Starcannon spam with BS4 Guardians, Aliatoc had the Ranger Disruption table which could cause the opponent to have units stuck in reserve or pinned at the start of the game, Iyanden had cheap as chips Wraithlords as troops.

I think it was the Ulthwe Strike force which had the infinitely large Seer Council...

F.E.A.R.
04-11-2014, 15:03
Well which is the OP codex I would say it's the Necrons. Their technology is so advanced and it can't be compared to the Eldar. But we haven't been fully introduced with the Necrons.

AndrewGPaul
04-11-2014, 15:10
Young 'uns. :rolleyes:

While 2nd edition Codex: Space Wolves did let you have twenty Wolf Guard Terminators with BS5, assault cannons and Cyclone Missile Launchers and targeters, that's not the most broken. That award goes to the 1st edition Imperial Guard army list, where you could outfit entire Imperial Guard Tactical Squads with underbarrel grenade launchers and a vortex grenade each. Pricey, and a single-shot weapon, but taking a coupld of dozen vortex grenades to the face is nothing to be sneezed at. :) Plus, by firing them out of a launcher, you get the vortex good and far away in case it starts wandering back to your own lines.

Going back to the Space Wolves, three of those assault cannons will miss. another seven will jam for at least one turn. The cyclone missile launchers will be devastating (krak missiles with up to a 3" radius template, if you empty the launchers in one shot), but if you hold anything back and take return fire, it's possible they'll malfunction.

A.T.
04-11-2014, 15:21
(krak missiles with up to a 3" radius template, if you empty the launchers in one shot)1/2" per missile if I remember correctly, so a 6" blast.

druchii
04-11-2014, 16:25
My vote is for star cannon spam eldar in 2nd. The marine tears that flowed that period of time filled a deep, deep undersea cavern.

I'd also say the Eldar have consistently been the best army in the game (rules, fluff and model wise even).

Honorably mention goes to the carnifex pie plate spam. In those days 5 s8 templates were devastating, and so many MCs were hard to handle for pretty much any army (wasn't that list two Tyrants, 5 'fexes with stranglers, a squad of zoans, and then genestealers/gants to fill points?). I specifically remember a lot of tournaments were having issues because the top armies would all be carnifex spam, and those with 'stealers were doing better because they were better at whacking opposing MCs...

Also can't forget the dual lash chaos lists... so many people just didn't like having their opponent get to fiddle with their models...

d

The Clairvoyant
04-11-2014, 16:44
You remember correctly but it did say 1/2" diameter per missile, even though everywhere else in all the rules for 2nd ed, blast markers were measured in radius. Of course, these days blast markers are measured in diameter so technically you are correct it is a 6" blast but in 2nd ed that was a 3" blast

insectum7
04-11-2014, 17:26
Going back to the Space Wolves, three of those assault cannons will miss. another seven will jam for at least one turn. The cyclone missile launchers will be devastating (krak missiles with up to a 3" radius template, if you empty the launchers in one shot), but if you hold anything back and take return fire, it's possible they'll malfunction.

With a BS of 5 and Targeters, the Acannons still get a 3+ to hit against a target on overwatch and moving out of cover, 4+ if the target is going fast and so on. Terminators were pretty good shots back then. Jamming was only effectively on a 1, so with three dice it happened, but not that often.

As for Cyclones, I do remember a game where a Cyclone malfunctioned and fired in random directions, striking another cyclone which blew up on the spot. It's a standout occurrence though, the Cyclone was the alpha strike of its day.


My vote is for star cannon spam eldar in 2nd.

You mean 3rd? There was no Starcannon in 2nd.

HelloKitty
04-11-2014, 17:43
1500 point tournament standard - 14 starcannons - guide power - little terrain on tournament tables = 2.5 dead marine squads a turn.

I first saw it at a rogue trader tournament and was told that eldar required advanced tactics to use properly lol.

Vipoid
04-11-2014, 17:54
Yeah, I remember getting obliterated by Starcannons in 3rd.


Most op dex ? Uuuu, hard competition between 3.5 CSM and 3rd ed Nekrons dex.

Were Necrons really strong in 3rd?

I don't know if it was because I was just starting out (so perhaps my lists and/or tactics just sucked), but my Necrons always struggled to do anything.

insectum7
04-11-2014, 18:13
Were Necrons really strong in 3rd?

I don't know if it was because I was just starting out (so perhaps my lists and/or tactics just sucked), but my Necrons always struggled to do anything.

I didn't see it myself but I remember hearing about large phalanxes of near 100 warriors with a Lord and Res Orb in the middle for an army that was just incredibly tough. And Immortals were some of the most cost effective units in the game for a while, IMO.

And Eldar reeaally didn't like the Monolith.

I don't know if Necrons won many tournaments per-se, but the army had a number of special rules that would **** people off, you sorta had to get past that and really understand how to fight them.

Vaktathi
04-11-2014, 18:20
Nercons with their old book were really strong until 5th, I think the best I ever did against them in 4th was a tie. :p

Lord Damocles
04-11-2014, 18:27
Necrons were pretty good from their 3rd ed. Codex until 5th ed., but I don't think they were ever near the level of 3rd Eldar/3.5 Chaos etc. in terms of broken-ness.

3rd ed. was all about Warrior spam, and 4th was the Destroyer armada, but they both suffered pretty badly against certain matchups.

Ironbone
04-11-2014, 18:34
And Eldar reeaally didn't like the Monolith.
None did :p. Especialy in early days when chain teleportation allowed to jump across basicly whole battlefield, while restoring the squad as well. Or when 2 or 3 moniliths deep strike into middle of your army and start going disco :D.


Also can't forget the dual lash chaos lists
Especialy when dual lash was in EVERY DAMM SINGLE CSM army that you ecnounter for like 5 years, as it happed to me :mad:. Lash can top any "wost psychic power ever" list with ease.

bittick
04-11-2014, 18:59
2nd edition Space Wolves was the most broken I've ever seen. They were much worse than any Siren Prince or Blood Angel Rhino Rush. A close second would probably be 2nd edition Eldar. Warp Spiders used a template back then. Warp Spider Exarch with armor piercing ammo (a 5 point wargear card) was disgusting.

Most underpowered army list might be 2nd edition Sisters Frateris Militia army. I remember them having bows and arrows and such.

Edit:

To beat 3rd ed Necrons you had to use specific tactics. Kill a squad in its entirety, go on to the next. Depending upon exactly which set of rules were in place at the time, hand to hand was sometimes the best way to do it. Unless you had something that could kill them quickly, usually your best bet was to ignore the Monoliths. Once you figured out how to beat Necrons, it was easy. Until you figured it out though, it was really hard.

insectum7
04-11-2014, 19:24
None did :p. Especialy in early days when chain teleportation allowed to jump across basicly whole battlefield, while restoring the squad as well. Or when 2 or 3 moniliths deep strike into middle of your army and start going disco :D.

Wasn't there a specific rule saying that a unit could only do a single teleport move in a turn? I remember my Immortals and Lord either doing Veil of Darkness or Power Matrix, but never both in a turn.

Oh that was a fun army though. I miss it.

A.T.
04-11-2014, 19:46
Most underpowered army list might be 2nd edition Sisters Frateris Militia army. I remember them having bows and arrows and such.If you could somehow keep them and their characters alive they could hit combat with a laundry list of buffs - each 6pt model could wade into combat with 3 unparryable strength 5 attacks, rerolling their dice, ignoring fumbles, hitting critically on all 6s including the first, and for 3 more points you could triple their movement.

Couple of well placed frag grenades would wipe out the whole squad though.

Horus38
04-11-2014, 20:00
If you could somehow keep them and their characters alive they could hit combat with a laundry list of buffs - each 6pt model could wade into combat with 3 unparryable strength 5 attacks, rerolling their dice, ignoring fumbles, hitting critically on all 6s including the first, and for 3 more points you could triple their movement.

Couple of well placed frag grenades would wipe out the whole squad though.

That's starting to sound a lot like the old Eldar Harlequin list :p

Wonderwolf
04-11-2014, 20:08
How does mentioning the 5th edition Grey Knight codex in a thread asking about the most overpowered codex constitute as whining? :confused:

Because the Grey Knight Codex killed the worst power-combo in 5th, the old-Daemonhunters/Imperial Guard combi (a.k.a. "Leafblower"). As wonky as it was, 5th was more balanced after the Grey Knights release than before it (if only by "accident").

A.T.
04-11-2014, 20:19
That's starting to sound a lot like the old Eldar Harlequin list :pAn old 2nd ed harlequin would easily beat a frateris (WS5 vs WS2). For the points though he's got another 5 or 6 queuing up to take their turn with ever more lopsided bonuses.

The frateris worked on the principle that you'd be outnumbering even ork mobs at least two to one :p

Rai_st
04-11-2014, 20:54
I only truly hated 1 thing about 2nd ed eldar - Karandras - Turn two he would just show up beside a squad - kill the whole squad and move to the next. He just sucked the fun out of a game for me which is funny because I loved the orks. - Ghazkhull would be hanging out with a squad of Kommandos throwing a vortex grenade at your head from behind your lines. Say what you will 2nd ed had character.

Starcannons were pretty cool only cause they killed two marines a turn. Orks and Guards loved that stuff because you just brought a gun to a knife fight. The seer council got all sorts of points for being very very cool to see on the table. BUt it was one squad in a wave serpent, avoid them and move on. Windriders were a little more tricky - I very rarely managed to stay on the board never mind win. Chaos was the same, all sorts of cool stuff but rarely unwinnable. Between 3rd's rule nerf's and going to an more army based game it was by nature less chessy than 2nd ed.

And you are right - assault cannons jammed, not infrequently, but when they fired everything in front of them went away, Marines, Tanks, Orks - they were just gone.

Ironbone
04-11-2014, 21:35
Wasn't there a specific rule saying that a unit could only do a single teleport move in a turn?
Not at the very begining, AFAIK. It may be added later, via FAQ or later printings, I don't know. I know however that our nekron player missed that a lot.

DeeKay
04-11-2014, 23:01
Okay, so let's go by editions for the sake of completeness...

2nd Ed: Eldar. Hands down. The amount of negative to hit modifiers you could put on things was just silly. Weakest was Sisters of Battle.
3rd Ed: 3.5 Chaos was fun, but busted. Thanks to guys being able to pick out guys in combat, I think Orks really suffered until 4th Ed.
4th Ed: Orks. Nob Bikers were a thing. Weakest, probably Dark Angels.
5th Ed: A draw between Newcrons and Grey Knights. I can't think of any weak 5th Ed books, the books were simply upstaged by whatever was newer than they were.
6th Ed: I thought Eldar or Tau, but I think Imperial Knights are broken. An army that forces an opponent to skew just to account for their existence is, by definition, unbalanced. Chaos gets the weakest vote, for reasons we've all heard to death.
7th Ed: Too soon to say.

With regards,
Dan.

Vaktathi
04-11-2014, 23:27
Because the Grey Knight Codex killed the worst power-combo in 5th, the old-Daemonhunters/Imperial Guard combi (a.k.a. "Leafblower"). As wonky as it was, 5th was more balanced after the Grey Knights release than before it (if only by "accident").
Again, that was never as powerful as it was made out to be, it's claim to fame was made at a 'ard boyz event where it got to go first every single game and none of the opponents counter-deployed to avoid the first turn alpha strike :p

A.T.
05-11-2014, 01:14
Chaos gets the weakest vote, for reasons we've all heard to death.For all the complaining chaos armies were pretty common amongst the top tournament results. Baledrakes if you are talking CSMs, and those absurd WD flamers for the daemons - for a while anyway.

wanderingblade
05-11-2014, 01:45
The Baledrake alone took CSM out of worst in 6th. Worst was probably the Blood Angels, whose codex got completely done by the meta.

Spiney Norman
05-11-2014, 07:17
Without question, the current Eldar codex, my reason being that not only is it one of the most stand-alone broken codexes ever, on a par with the grey Knights of 5th edition and the Eldar codex of 3rd, it also is reigning in an era where allies and lords of war allow you to break the game in ways completely unheard of before. Not only do Eldar have the most powerful codex, they have two battle brother allies which compound that brokeness even further (tau and dark Eldar) and the most over powererd Lord of war model in 40k (Revenant titan).

Basically the codex is broken at a time when overpoweredness is rife

As for weakest, I still say Adepta sororitas, and they've been there for four editions now (4th, 5th, 6th & 7th).

GoodCarl
05-11-2014, 12:16
Yeah, I think it's a sad thing for the game and the hobby that it's the eldar skimmers once again that are so awfully balanced. I wonder what they had in mind when they wrote the serpent part of the overall already very powerful codex.

I'm still convinced its an uncorrected printing error. The serpent field *should* have a range of 6". Getting rid of that zero makes a heck of a difference.

I have fond memories of 2E Codex: Chaos being a challenge to play against. My Warp Spiders still have nightmares about the 'Daemonic Possession' rule. You got randomly possessed by a daemon if you used any form of teleportation (Warp jumps, deep striking, Gate psychic power) which made using such forms of transport a huge risk. And then there was the 18w foulspawn daemon prince who regained wounds of he killed anyone.....

Underpowered? 4E Dark Angels. What a horribly bland book.

Vipoid
05-11-2014, 13:02
Without question, the current Eldar codex, my reason being that not only is it one of the most stand-alone broken codexes ever, on a par with the grey Knights of 5th edition and the Eldar codex of 3rd, it also is reigning in an era where allies and lords of war allow you to break the game in ways completely unheard of before. Not only do Eldar have the most powerful codex, they have two battle brother allies which compound that brokeness even further (tau and dark Eldar) and the most over powererd Lord of war model in 40k (Revenant titan).

Basically the codex is broken at a time when overpoweredness is rife

Possibly something of an aside, but I was just wondering how well the old OP codices would hold up in the current edition.

A.T.
05-11-2014, 13:18
Possibly something of an aside, but I was just wondering how well the old OP codices would hold up in the current edition.With the current rules, or with the ruleset of the time?

Siren bomb doesn't work nearly as well without assault from deepstrike and assault from (long range) consolidation, indestructible falcons don't work with hull points, GK were already losing their luster in 6th, and the older power books in particular existed in an era where invulnerable save items would often be one per army, WS5 Init 5 was some kind of close combat beast, and 45pts for a plasma cannon servitor was a decent investment in heavy firepower.

Bloodknight
05-11-2014, 15:02
Were Necrons really strong in 3rd?

Only if you didn't know how to beat them. If you knew - kill them a whole squad at a time and ignore the Monolith because it can hardly be killed -, they were only good for boring the hell out of the opponent. The whole codex basically says "I'll frustrate you till you or I win". One of the worst written rulesets for a 40K army yet, I think. The current Necron codex is much more fun for both players.

Still Standing
05-11-2014, 15:19
In 3rd Ed if you had 2 Necron players facing off, whoever went first autowon. You could teleport your opponents army through your Monolith, but because your own squad was stood at the exit they were destroyed. Do that to 75% of his army and he phased out, you won without firing a shot. :) That's how badly written it was.

Ssilmath
05-11-2014, 15:24
Possibly something of an aside, but I was just wondering how well the old OP codices would hold up in the current edition.

As A.T. mentioned, the rules don't jive anymore. Updating them to current rules and keeping the same exceptions (daemons assualting from deep strike, infiltrating within 12 inches and first turn charging, etc) and I think you'd find they were still pretty broken. Unfortunately, we've had 10 years of power creep and rules changes, so it's hard to make a direct comparison. I'm just glad to see the power creep stopping (in theory).

Ironbone
05-11-2014, 15:33
I'm just glad to see the power creep stopping (in theory).
Power creep, by it's own nature, can never stop, it can only be slowed down, or directed at less important areas.

Cheeslord
05-11-2014, 16:07
I can't think of any weak 5th Ed books, the books were simply upstaged by whatever was newer than they were.
.

I think a pretty weak Tyranid codex dropped towards the end of 5th (the one where they lost all the cool (but time consuming in list building) biomorphs, lost EW from Synapse (brilliantly coupled with the recent Gray Knight codex where they all had instant death causing weapons...), and were gifted with Pyrovores and Instinctive Behavior...

Mark.

Vipoid
05-11-2014, 16:18
I can't think of any weak 5th Ed books, the books were simply upstaged by whatever was newer than they were.

If I remember correctly, Tyranids, Dark Eldar and (if they count) SoB weren't especially strong - at least not to the degree of some other 5th edition books.

Also, were Necrons that strong in 5th? I thought they weren't good until 6th - when a lot of the new rules buffed them. But, again, I could be misremembering.

A.T.
05-11-2014, 16:34
Also, were Necrons that strong in 5th? I thought they weren't good until 6thScarab farms, wraith wing, eternal night fighting and all the other joys of 5th ed crons. It was ugly.

BTJ
05-11-2014, 17:27
If I remember correctly, Tyranids, Dark Eldar and (if they count) SoB weren't especially strong - at least not to the degree of some other 5th edition books.

Also, were Necrons that strong in 5th? I thought they weren't good until 6th - when a lot of the new rules buffed them. But, again, I could be misremembering.
Dark Eldar weren't weak at all, they just needed the right touch. That book was one of the most balanced codexes GW ever released IMO

Vipoid
05-11-2014, 17:28
Dark Eldar weren't weak at all, they just needed the right touch. That book was one of the most balanced codexes GW ever released IMO

I didn't say it was weak - I said it wasn't as strong as the top contenders (SW, IG, GKs).

ColShaw
05-11-2014, 17:38
Scarab farms, wraith wing, eternal night fighting and all the other joys of 5th ed crons. It was ugly.

I think the confusion is that the "5th Ed" Necrons came in at the very end of 5th, right before 6th, so people aren't quite sure which codex is being discussed.

Maistrown
05-11-2014, 19:57
Well, almost every codex has got its own deathstars, I mean hell, even like sisters can be really good I fielded right.

Vaktathi
05-11-2014, 20:53
If I remember correctly, Tyranids, Dark Eldar and (if they count) SoB weren't especially strong - at least not to the degree of some other 5th edition books.

Also, were Necrons that strong in 5th? I thought they weren't good until 6th - when a lot of the new rules buffed them. But, again, I could be misremembering.DE in 5th were pretty middle of the road, suffering the same problems they always do, being excellent against very elite, limited numbers opponents, and falling to pieces when faced with something with a whole lot of weeny units. Excellent at taking apart things like TMC armies with great efficiency and generally being very mean to MEQ opponents most of the time, but practically auto-lost to something like a mechanized Imperial Guard army.

Necrons, once they got their new book, were pretty strong in 5th, not the absolute best, but definitely amongst the top 5, and then got catapulted to top status with 6th, and staying very close up through the present.

WomBone
05-11-2014, 22:08
Well, almost every codex has got its own deathstars, I mean hell, even like sisters can be really good I fielded right.

then I must be playing my Sister's army (SoB, not my sister) wrong, as the only time i get sSoB to work is Allying in a Knight and other Imperial books.

Azulthar
06-11-2014, 09:43
I didn't say it was weak - I said it wasn't as strong as the top contenders (SW, IG, GKs).
You remember correctly.

AndrewGPaul
08-11-2014, 00:12
With a BS of 5 and Targeters, the Acannons still get a 3+ to hit against a target on overwatch and moving out of cover, 4+ if the target is going fast and so on. Terminators were pretty good shots back then. Jamming was only effectively on a 1, so with three dice it happened, but not that often.

Yes, that often. :) any one of the three Sustained Fire dice needs to come up a jam; that's a 42% chance.

Other overpowering things from 1st edition - the Eldar Avatar. On average, it's WS 7, S 8, T 8, W 6 with a 2+, 4++ save. It gets 4 Exarch powers; if it gets the one which gives it a 4" consolidate move which allows him to move into contact with the enemy and fight again, it's a mincing machine. I watched him almost exterminate a Space Wolves army in one round of combat - only a single Blood Claw remained.

insectum7
08-11-2014, 17:45
Yes, that often. :) any one of the three Sustained Fire dice needs to come up a jam; that's a 42% chance.

I suppose if the Wolf Guard squad was 16 members strong, and they ALL were firing Assault Cannons, then seven would jam. :)



Other overpowering things from 1st edition - the Eldar Avatar. On average, it's WS 7, S 8, T 8, W 6 with a 2+, 4++ save. It gets 4 Exarch powers; if it gets the one which gives it a 4" consolidate move which allows him to move into contact with the enemy and fight again, it's a mincing machine. I watched him almost exterminate a Space Wolves army in one round of combat - only a single Blood Claw remained.

With only a 4++, and heavy weapons (assault cannon included) often doing d10 wounds per hit or more, I never really found the daemons that nasty. I guess I'm thinking 2nd though. Also, did Blood Claws exist in 1st edition? I confess I know little of the Space Wolves before their 2nd Ed. Codex. Well, other than the fact that Leman Russ was a "Commander of the Imperial Army" and had a lot of tubes coming out of his face :)

1st Ed Grey Knights. . . hoo boy!

Voss
08-11-2014, 18:58
With only a 4++, and heavy weapons (assault cannon included) often doing d10 wounds per hit or more, I never really found the daemons that nasty. I guess I'm thinking 2nd though. Also, did Blood Claws exist in 1st edition? I confess I know little of the Space Wolves before their 2nd Ed. Codex. Well, other than the fact that Leman Russ was a "Commander of the Imperial Army" and had a lot of tubes coming out of his face :)

No, you are correct, but neither did the Avatar. Space Wolves and Craftworld eldar both dawned during 2nd, (first codex and a series of white dwarf articles, respectively) in 1st the former were standard marines, and the only eldar lists were pirates and harlequins.

But first edition heavy weapons were just as dangerous to daemons (and characters in general): lascannons were anti-character pieces (doing 2d6 wounds, and effectively not allowing armor saves), as they were much more dangerous than the occasional vehicle. Odds were pretty good that 2 lascannons shots killed anyone.

insectum7
09-11-2014, 02:14
No, you are correct, but neither did the Avatar. Space Wolves and Craftworld eldar both dawned during 2nd, (first codex and a series of white dwarf articles, respectively) in 1st the former were standard marines, and the only eldar lists were pirates and harlequins.


The Avatar definitely existed towards the end of 1st, from White Dwarf and the Compilation book. The Avatar then was a little guy on a normal slotta base, and had variable stats. But yeah, still highly killable with heavy weapons. I think the biggest difference then was the scale of the armies. In fist edition the forces were smaller, so stuff like Greater Daemons were really capable of rampaging around. In 2nd I think the armies grew bigger, so more opportunities to blow away the big guys before they get too far.

Poseidal
09-11-2014, 07:49
The Avatar had a special rule that limits the number of wounds he can take in one go. In many ways the first eternal warrior, so to speak.

This was when a lascannon did 2D6 wounds as well.

iamcjb
10-11-2014, 08:26
2nd ed Eldar and Spcae Wolves. I also found Tyranids to be quite tough back then too.

CSM 3.5 as well. First time I ever experienced abuse of OP units was around the time of this codex (along with Ulthwe Strike Force).

AndrewGPaul
10-11-2014, 10:04
I suppose if the Wolf Guard squad was 16 members strong, and they ALL were firing Assault Cannons, then seven would jam. :)

That was the content of the discussion, yes; twenty Wolf Guard Terminators, all with assault cannon and cyclone missile launchers. Still deadly, but only overwhemlingly so for one turn (which I suppose would be enough; has anyone ever actually seen this monstrosity being fielded? I was never rich enough as a 12-year old, not as much of a [expletive deleted] to do it at the time. :))



With only a 4++, and heavy weapons (assault cannon included) often doing d10 wounds per hit or more, I never really found the daemons that nasty. I guess I'm thinking 2nd though. Also, did Blood Claws exist in 1st edition? I confess I know little of the Space Wolves before their 2nd Ed. Codex. Well, other than the fact that Leman Russ was a "Commander of the Imperial Army" and had a lot of tubes coming out of his face :)

1st Ed Grey Knights. . . hoo boy!


No, you are correct, but neither did the Avatar. Space Wolves and Craftworld eldar both dawned during 2nd, (first codex and a series of white dwarf articles, respectively) in 1st the former were standard marines, and the only eldar lists were pirates and harlequins.

But first edition heavy weapons were just as dangerous to daemons (and characters in general): lascannons were anti-character pieces (doing 2d6 wounds, and effectively not allowing armor saves), as they were much more dangerous than the occasional vehicle. Odds were pretty good that 2 lascannons shots killed anyone.

The Eldar army as we know it now appeared in WD 127 (1990), Space Wolves in WD 152-154(1992)*. 2nd edition 40k was released in WD 166 (1994).

I confess my memory may be unreliable; Since when that Space Wolves army list appeared all I did was paint new pack markings onto my existing Space Marine squads and snap the heavy weapons off the Tactical Marines, the Avatar may have left a single Assault Marine instead of a Blood Claw. Not really relevant to the discussion.

* The depiction of Leman Russ in the Rogue Trader rulebook had been replaced in continuity by something much closer to how we know him now (http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/forumfiles/leman-russ-2nd-ed.jpg) by 1989. However, the Space Marine Painting Guide booklet did mention that the Space Wolves were famous for their adherence to the Index Astartes and that the Ultramarines used lots of non-standard slogans on their armour and vehicles. :)

mattschuur
15-11-2014, 06:05
I've only played since 3rd, so can't comment on 2nd. However, in my opinion, 3.5 chaos is the most broken of all time. The IW 4 Large blast and 3 unit oblit army, the word bearer daemon bomb, the khorne speed walkers (that's what we called it), Super princes, and even Alpha Legion all infiltrate were very powerful. Most codex's now have 1 op build, without allies. Chaos 3.5 had 4 to 5 with a number of ridiculous wargear options.

Most underpowered. For me that's actually tougher. I'd say Necrons before Mat Ward in 6th. They were just to easy to phase out. If your opponent took a monolith or two, it was even easier. I remember a buddy who played them made a comment about finally being able to win when the Mat ward book came out. He reminded us he hadn't won in 2 years. He won more with his Tyranids and IG.

Inquisitor Kallus
15-11-2014, 15:29
I didn't say it was weak - I said it wasn't as strong as the top contenders (SW, IG, GKs).

Surely you mean not as overpowered..... :shifty: