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Mad Doc Grotsnik
25-06-2006, 14:39
Okay. I'll admit it. I use a Dragon in 2,000 points. In the same army, I also take a Manticore, 4 Chariots and 2 War Hydras, plus some Repeater Crossbowmen.

My army is heavily themed towards big gribbly monsters, to the degree where I sacrifice any and all static Combat Resolution, and Magic, both offensive and defensive. I have fairly respectable firepower in the form of 30 Repeater Crossbows, but nothing that can really win the game for me.

You could all my eggs are in one basket. If I'm going to squish you into the dirt, I'm going to have to use my big gribbly stuff well.

And yet, merely because of the Dragons presence, I'm called beardy and cheesey. And quite frankly, thats not fair at all. Heres some important news for those unaware. The chances of a Highborn on Dragon winning a frontal charge combat are pretty bloody slim. Out of 9 attacks, I need to kill 6 to win. 3 to equal your ranks, 1 to equal your standard, 1 for outnumber, and the final wound to avoid losing draws (Musicians!). Hard as I am, thats really not horrifically likely. So, more often than not, I'll fart **** about with my flying gribblies in an effort to set up flank, or preferrably, rear, charges.

Such behavior does actually rely on tactics.

So why am I labelled as a beardy sod, just because of my armies theme? It needs to come to you, has several glaring weaknesses, and gets royally screwed by terrain (I have never beaten Wood Elves!)

Commissar Vaughn
25-06-2006, 15:15
Becouse they inhabit a mythical moral high ground, that you are beardy cos youve done something they wouldnt think of. I rather like using monsters in 2k games myself. tends to be griffons though, and I really wish I could have one in my DoW. The beardy label is unjustified though, I cant remember seeing a hero and a monster do anything game winning since 5thed hero hammer. They tend to get shot to bits whilst trying to find a combat they can win!

Actuallly now I mention it I did play a series of 4 games i played with a friend featuring eltharion the grim as the centre of a high elf army against, karlfranz leading an empire army. After being a bit overly cautious at first both these mighty heroes smashed bits out of the enemy and each other managing to fight one on one in each game and they both won twice. they tended to struggle against ranked up units of infantry but proved themselves fully capable of taking on a regiment of knights, which is were the high strength of the monsters came in very useful.

Sanjuro
25-06-2006, 15:49
When 7th rolls around, I am so using a Chaos Dragon. And I play Tzeentch, so it will be the 3+ ward save, Staff of Change monstrosity.

The army I've got planned for the release of 7th is also a non-static CR, all flying/fast gribblies and cavalry army. But with heavy magic as well. I mean, I might as well take advantage of the new system, right?

:evilgrin: :angel:

gortexgunnerson
25-06-2006, 16:18
lol, am guessing could be my fault for inspiring the thread so thought I'd comment.

I don't think Dragon use in 2000 points is that much an element of beardyness or cheese. I think the points cost and hero slot taken up are suitable compensation for having a big gribbly monster. Though the 3+ ward Tzeentch dragon of doom is getting their lol. I think it a valid tactic and the more wide spread the tactic games the more balance imposed on armies in particular tournment play. As the more potential types of army you could play the more wide ranging your own counter elements of your list should contain. If you listen to everyone harping on about you not being allowed this and that everyone list will become the same and the game will lose some of its favour. I like the idea of dragons and monsters, its why I play fantasy and not historical games. It also adds new challenges, I have a game next week against a guy with a wyvern mounted orc warboss and a giant so my Dwarf gunmen are poishing up the cannon (note single tence :( prays for no misfires)for some monster bashing. And i'm looking forward to it as have never faced a wyvern before

orkinThai
25-06-2006, 16:20
I love dragons. I even have 3 tattooed on my body.

On the topic of dragons, which are never cheesy cuz they are so expensive, i have a question.

If i modeled a 5-headed dragon (for chaos, half-way finished), would people have some kind of "rules" problem with that? Base is the same as a normal dragon . I will call her Tiamat!

Viskrit
25-06-2006, 16:29
I like big monstrosities, and I see no reason to cry "cheese" over them. There are a few ways in which dragons can be abused, but all armies which include a dragon are by no means cheesy. That would be like saying that all Skaven are cheesy.

I've never played aginst a Tzeentch Lord on dragon, but I would very much want to try it. Or a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon, whichever.

OrkinThai, your opponents shouldn't have any problems with that. As long as you use the normal rules for Chaos Dragons, they should just be happy to see your conversions. :)

Gorbad Ironclaw
25-06-2006, 17:00
I have never had anyone complain about my dragon(also using it in 2k DE). Maybe it's just your local players who don't like it for some reason?

It's a fun thing to use, but there are so many ways to counter it if you think a little :) Now, if only people would forget about 'conventional wisdom' and think a bit when fighting a dragon, they would be a lot less powerful.

blurred
25-06-2006, 17:47
Dragons and other big, flying monsters are generally scorned upon because its so easy to switch the pressure point of your army when you have one; deployment is not an issue with them. They just zoom over the battlefield to a better position. If the army contains a lot of these buggers (and other hard-hitting troops), slow-moving troops have a hard time to try to keep flanks intact.

Though IMO dragons are slightly underpriced, I personally don't have a problem with them. I see them as "win-big, lose-big" - type of units.

FlameKnight
25-06-2006, 17:55
A dude on a dragon will never charge a unit in the front, for reasons as you have mentioned. Solution? Fly behind the unit, and leave another unit in front. Your enemy is dead next turn.

Such behavior does not actually require tactics, just fart-arsing around.

And while you're at it, your opponent has pretty much no way of stopping you. Cannons will very rarely do catastrophic damage to a dragon. The problem with a dragon is that you pick your fights, and you pick the ones that you win.

I played a 2500 pt, 14 powerdice, chosen knights, lord on dragon tzeench army on saturday. I hit the dragon with two cannon balls (of my three cannons) each turn for three turns, doing no wounds to its 3+ ward. Flies behind me, two breath attacks, multiple magic missiles and other spells = 24 dead halberdiers in a turn. Now that's not you, but it shows you why people hate dragons.

I do respect your choice of army. I like the concept, and I'd love to imagine our armies battling, but I wouldn't play you in a game of warhammer. I field a steam tank. A steam tank can't fly, and is also about as vunerable as a dragon to damage. I would accept a 7th edition reduction in power (and points) of the tank, if dragons, giants, carnosaurs and stegaddons also had this reduction. It would make a better game of warhammer, correct?

edit: I'd like to clarify: I don't blame you for fielding the dragon, nor do I harbour any resent for (most) players that do. It's the game's fault for being flawed in having such powerful things, not yours.

Sanjuro
25-06-2006, 18:28
I played a 2500 pt, 14 powerdice, chosen knights, lord on dragon tzeench army on saturday. I hit the dragon with two cannon balls (of my three cannons) each turn for three turns, doing no wounds to its 3+ ward. Flies behind me, two breath attacks, multiple magic missiles and other spells = 24 dead halberdiers in a turn. (...) it shows you why people hate dragons.


Excellent. I'll be pulling stunts like that all the time, hopefully. ;)

In all seriousness, I wouldn't pull that trick on an unsuspecting foe. Since I play 99% of my games with my mates, I make sure to ask if my army list is cool with them. If they really don't want to face it, they won't have to. I have enough points to field pretty much any configuration.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
25-06-2006, 18:44
I have a particularly evil trick with my Dragon and Manticore.

They position themselves, facing each other, to the flank of two seperate regiments.

Now, the sensible thing to do is turn to face, forcing a frontal rather than rear charge. However, this is where the trick lies.

Large, Flying Targets can not only *see* over enemy units, but also legitimately *charge* over enemy units. Net result? Two rear charges, and two fairly easily won combats, owing the lack of Champions and Heros in the fighting rank!

Latro
25-06-2006, 18:59
I have a particularly evil trick with my Dragon and Manticore.

They position themselves, facing each other, to the flank of two seperate regiments.

Now, the sensible thing to do is turn to face, forcing a frontal rather than rear charge. However, this is where the trick lies.

Large, Flying Targets can not only *see* over enemy units, but also legitimately *charge* over enemy units. Net result? Two rear charges, and two fairly easily won combats, owing the lack of Champions and Heros in the fighting rank!

At the risk of sounding a bit sarcastic ...

That isn't a trick, that's the big obvious reason why large flying monsters such as dragons are absolutely lethal in the hands of everyone who has even half a clue about how the game works.

So what if dragons have a hard time winning from fully ranked units up front? Guess what ... they never have to charge from the front!

Gosh ... they have trouble winning from army x? Well, tough luck for everybody not playing army x then I guess. At least it will make me feel better when the dragon is doing nasty painful things to the rear of my army (which happens to be anything but type x).


Dragons are generally bad news for certain armies and unprepared opponents, they are simply in a league of their own. So if I feel like using a dragon I always ask my opponent if he doesn't mind ... it's a game for two people after all.


:cool:

Mad Doc Grotsnik
25-06-2006, 19:10
Oh, there are plenty ways and means around my Dragon. Consider my weaknesses....like a total lack of Magical defense or offense........

Plenty ways to take care of it, if you can think of them!

Scythe
25-06-2006, 19:20
Alright, a Dragon plus rider equals 500 points at least, and potentially more. You should be able to get at least 2 fully ranked units for that price, depending on your army. You might not be able to outmaneuver a dragon, but 2 units can cover each other rather ok.

Latro
25-06-2006, 19:39
Oh, there are plenty ways and means around my Dragon. Consider my weaknesses....like a total lack of Magical defense or offense........

Plenty ways to take care of it, if you can think of them!

Yeah, well ... that seems to be the default answer in defence of dragons. Personally I would change that statement into "Plenty ways to take care of it, if you happen to have them."

Flying monsters are fine by me ...

Big Monsters are always fun ...

Big Flying Monsters mounted by nasty characters are too much


I'm not going into a session of TheoryHammer (mostly because both sides claim to win anyway). In my (not so) humble opion, a dragon offers too much power an tactical options for it's points ... that you are nice enough to take a fluffy list with included weaknesses doesn't change that fact.

Example to make my point and prove I'm always right:

Nice and sympathetic Chaos army v. Druchii army of Cheesy Doom

Dragon flies behind Chaos army while 4 Bolt Throwers strafe the followers of Chaos. What to do? Can't march. If I don't deal with the dragon it will rear-charge and destroy any unit it wants to. If I turn a unit around it will simply charge another one. If I turn all my units it will simply back-off a bit and laugh while the Bolt Throwers keep strafing me.

... oh the fun we had ;)


Anyway, good luck with your army ... but I still think dragons in general are a wee bit over the top.


:cool:

Stouty
25-06-2006, 19:52
I've been planning a high fantasy dark elf army for 2000pts with my full compliment of flying gribblies (3 manticores and a black dragon backed up by 3 5 man dark rider squads and 2 units of 10 harpies) and you know what? It's a bloody weak list. No magic defense (other than charging lone wizards, which obviously then hide in a big block unit forcing me to front charge a block unit).
Mass shooting = game over.
Mass combat blocks= game over
Mass heavy cavalry= Level up!

Still I mainly want this army as a break from my otherwise steampunky collection.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
25-06-2006, 19:56
Slight problem with that. 1 Dragon, it's Rider, and a Beastmaster riding a Manticore take up all 4 character slots....Hence, why I only have 1 Dragon and 1 Manticore.

A particularly funny stunt you can play though...

Invest in 5 Harpies. Send them up with the Dragon. If the Giant causes anything to flee in Terror, declare a charge with your Harpies. This allows your Harpies to take care of units of *any* size!

WillFightForFood
25-06-2006, 20:11
I don't find that army cheesy at all.

Second on the subject of the 3+ Ward save - If I'm reading you right then cannonballs are being interpreted as normal and magical missiles. In that case, does all nonmagical artillery (organ guns, mortars, etc) count as a non-magical missile for purposes of this ward save? Does the Skaven Umbranner provide this same effect? Anyone know where this interpretation of the rules comes from (i.e. BRB, Chronicles, etc)?

Stouty
25-06-2006, 20:15
Slight problem with that. 1 Dragon, it's Rider, and a Beastmaster riding a Manticore take up all 4 character slots....Hence, why I only have 1 Dragon and 1 Manticore.

DAMNATIONS! All I wanted was big pets. Oh well, lose a couple musicians, gain mengils manflayers.

But back on topic, the main problem with dragons is not that they are too powerful it's that they are too rare. Most people create a list able to deal with magic, it's just the done thing. Very few people come prepared for a dragon.

If I turned up to a 2000pt game with nothing to deal with enemy shooting (no flyers, or screens, or scouts or firepower of their own) against an Empire army you wouldn't call the empire guns overpowered, you'd call me and my list just a wee bit silly and unprepared.

As it is there are a lot of people with Empire armies and a lot of them have some guns. Fewer people take dragons so people think they can get away with being unprepared for one. In that sense they take a risk to ignore the chance of the opponent fielding a dragon. Most of the time their gamble pays off but they shouldn't get in a tizz when someone does use a dragon.

Falkman
25-06-2006, 20:46
Second on the subject of the 3+ Ward save - If I'm reading you right then cannonballs are being interpreted as normal and magical missiles. In that case, does all nonmagical artillery (organ guns, mortars, etc) count as a non-magical missile for purposes of this ward save? Does the Skaven Umbranner provide this same effect? Anyone know where this interpretation of the rules comes from (i.e. BRB, Chronicles, etc)?
They are shooting attacks, hence missiles.

WillFightForFood
25-06-2006, 20:58
They are shooting attacks, hence missiles.

You'd think that, but then I've had people try to tell me they aren't.

Finnblood
26-06-2006, 09:07
Dragons are mean in the hands of a good player! Terror-causing, flying thingy with what 4-5 attacks of it's own and a lord with 3+ attacks on the top. Smaller units wont stand a chance even from the front and bigger units are broken from the back. Dragons can easily avoid cannons by jumping here and there. That's mean.

But I have defeated a dragon with a 2-pack of giant rats :D
They charge it, kill the rider with luck and deal 1 wound to the dragon! Dragon deals two wounds. I have 2 ranks, outnumber and 4 wounds, dragon has two wounds -> I win the combat with 5! Bye-bye wyrmie! I must mention that the same pack has killed also a stegadon, a cold one chariot and lots of biggies!

Viskrit
26-06-2006, 14:39
Heh, never underestimate the power of Clan Moulder.

Unfortunately, I almost never face dragons. It's a shame really, because it is one of the more interesting things to be put up against in this game. The big nasties. :)

Thranduil
26-06-2006, 18:38
I'm quite proud to say that I field the ultimate fantasy monster in my army: a dragon. It was one of the main selling points of the army I chose (WE) to tell the absolute truth... Well, that and big nasty tree spirits... :D

Anyway, a lot of people don't quite understand how to take care of the big gribbly, and who can blame them? A big, skinny, terror-causing, bad breathe toting (what else it it? S2 breathe weapon with -3 to armour saves = bad breath) flying sunofagun is a crazy site on the table, I will admit. Thing is, most players fail to look past that: the big crazy monster's there to distract you from the hapless T3 elf decked out in a ton of wargear on top of the dragon. My point is, a dragon's major weakness is the rider on top, and once he disappears, then that big gribbly may very well end up fleeing off the board, sitting in one spot for the rest of the game, or attacking everything in site (which can be quite entertaining). Try directing all CC attacks at the rider. Why not massive concentrated shooting/lots of magic? Sure a bunch of shots will hit the dragon and bounce off, but all you need to do is wound that rider 3 times. If you concentrate enough firepower/attacks at the rider, the dragon's effectiveness will die down a little.

burnthexenos
26-06-2006, 21:18
Oh pur-lease. Dragons are cheese, and anyone using a beardy Dragon in 2000pts should be shot. They should be limited to 3k+ games only.

As should manticores, and griffons, and any other large flying monsters. Expecially those cheesy Bret pegasai! No more than 1 unit of them, and they can only be used in 3k+ games!

All flying monsters should be banned until 3k. They are just too powerful.

Lostanddamned
26-06-2006, 21:25
I hope that was sarcasm.

I like to face something "powerful" I see that as meaning "a challenge" rather than just claiming that it is too good and should be banned until i can pull together a gunline big enough to slaughter it.

Stouty
26-06-2006, 21:26
Wow, at least you don't mince your words.

Let me guess, when you fought a dragon you weren't prepared for it? I won't deny dragons need a slight points increase but banning them?

They are a big risk. One stray cannon ball if I lose first turn and it's game over for our brave heroes. And don't whinge about a lack of cannon, you have DoW. And don't say DoW suck or something like that, because damnit that's your choice.

If anyone cares I'm going ahead with my high fantasy list, shall be posting it up soon.

burnthexenos
26-06-2006, 21:35
I like to face something "powerful" I see that as meaning "a challenge" rather than just claiming that it is too good and should be banned until i can pull together a gunline big enough to slaughter it.

So you wouldn't mind facing a Skaven SAD?? An Empire Gunline?? A Bret RAF?? An 18 powerdice tzentchh list??

They damn well should be banned.



Let me guess, when you fought a dragon you weren't prepared for it? I won't deny dragons need a slight points increase but banning them?

They need more than a bloody points increase! They need restricting! They wouldn't show up for every 2000pts game! Fluffwise, Dragons are very rare, so would only be seen in larger battles, like 3k+.

I would also ban arsanil the dragonlord until 3k, to keep things consistant.

At the very least, make them cost around 650pts like a Greater Deamon. Their points cost need around doubling.



They are a big risk. One stray cannon ball if I lose first turn and it's game over for our brave heroes. And don't whinge about a lack of cannon, you have DoW. And don't say DoW suck or something like that, because damnit that's your choice.

Yea, that cannonball is going to have to be very lucky. You gotta roll a 6 on the d6 wounds for christ sake! The Dragon causes terror, can fly, has an uber lord on top, can destroy entire units single handedly, and takes all the tactics out of the game.


If anyone cares I'm going ahead with my high fantasy list, shall be posting it up soon.

Well, if it includes a Dragon, I wouldn't play you.

Bloodknight
26-06-2006, 21:43
It all depends on the rider on the dragon. I have fielded Asarnil in my DoW army a few times but people just hurl magic missiles at him of shoot with bows or crossbows. 2 in 6 times Asarnil gets hit. 4 crossbow bolts are normally enough to kill him and then Thalui-Sethai just tends to do nothing at all. I don´t field him anymore, he just doesn´t stand a single shooting phase.

Latro
26-06-2006, 21:44
... They are a big risk. One stray cannon ball if I lose first turn and it's game over for our brave heroes. And don't whinge about a lack of cannon, you have DoW. And don't say DoW suck or something like that, because damnit that's your choice.

.... uhm

Let's see, what are the odds of a DoW cannon killing a Dragon on turn 1:

- chance of guessing the range spot on: x%
- chance of a accurate bounce: y%
- chance of wounding the dragon: 83.33%
- chance of killing the dragon: 0%

... 0% ? ... yes, because it does d3 wounds to a 6 wound monster.

By the way, the chance of two DoW cannons hitting and killing the beast on the first turn are a bit more ... about 7% (asuming both the guess and bounce are dead on).


:cool:

(PS Why do people always asume the someone who doesn't like dragons must have problems dealing with them on the battle-field?)

Stouty
26-06-2006, 21:45
Well, if it includes a Dragon, I wouldn't play you.

Take a peak at it in the army list section, it's quite a fragile list.

Also to the fluff thing: I know they wouldn't show up in a 2000pt game except in the most exceptional circumstances but I was under the impression that the people played for the exceptional games that filled up myth and legend.

If it's fun it goes, that siad I would be very conscious as to play fun instead of just nancying round all game. There's a dwarf in me that dislikes that idea very much.


(PS Why do people always asume the someone who doesn't like dragons must have problems dealing with them on the battle-field?)

I never said that, and I certainly didn't mean to infer it, apologies if I did. The poster I was replying to was implying he hated it because in 2000pts games it was impossible to deal with though. That sounded to me like he had problems with it on the top.

Also, the riders are usually pretty fragile. Mmm....4+ save on a tough 3 character. Sounds *searches for the right word* risky.

devolutionary
26-06-2006, 21:49
Oh pur-lease. Dragons are cheese, and anyone using a beardy Dragon in 2000pts should be shot. They should be limited to 3k+ games only.

As should manticores, and griffons, and any other large flying monsters. Expecially those cheesy Bret pegasai! No more than 1 unit of them, and they can only be used in 3k+ games!

All flying monsters should be banned until 3k. They are just too powerful.


... gunline, is that you?


Seriously. Dragons cost as much as they do because they are powerful. Is it cheesy? No. Bret RAF is stretching it, same with Empire Gunline, and Skaven SAD is the true master, but Dragons are one monster. Put a large block of infantry (we do remember what infantry is don't we? :D) in it's way and it can be held up for a turn or two with ease, and at only a fraction of it's cost. Meanwhile the rest of your army romps around causing mayhem and destruction.

I like dragons. Dragons to me are fantasy. They are the quintessential monster of the entire genre. If you want one, take it, I'm all for their presence on the battlefield.

hunter4925
26-06-2006, 21:54
As far as being "chessy" goes, I don't think that dragons themselves are that cause of the lable, but any flying, terror causing creature catches the monicure. I have seen dragons, greater daemons, other terror causing flyers creatures do nothing more in a game than fly behind enemy lines, force as many terror tests through proximity, block march movin, and kill mar machines. Large things such as these are a major points investment and seem to be better served out of combat than in it a good portion of the time.

I play a slaanesh chaos army for which I have fielded both a Chaos Dragon and an Exalted daemon and have seen entire flanks fold over due to terror without a single combat being fought. Armies, like Orcs and Goblins, depend on a level of panic management, in order to be affective, they need to take as few panic tests as possible. Dragons and such can simply break an entire army such as this without any offensive strike.

On the other side of things, I also play lizardmen. I has beared witness to Dragons and Greater Daemons start at one end of a table in deployment, I will place my scouting skinks in woods out of line of sight. Opponent gets first turn. He can simple fly, his/her's giant flying terror factory over near the trees and plop him down. Now without being able to see the skinks there, the dragon has effectively forced them into a high risk panic test due to terror, even though the skinks cannot see the dragon through the trees.

My point from all of this is, that dragons themselves are not the reason for the cheesy label, it is the terror casuing ability, combined with flying that has earned them and others such a dubious title. Then again, its just my humble opinion.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
26-06-2006, 22:01
But Terror is a viable tool, and indeed tactic.

Take my earlier example of a Dragon accompanied by Harpies. Anyone fleeing from the Dragon is liable to be run down by my amazing, disposable Harpies!

And believe it or not, Terror, in my experience, rarely achieves what I'd like it too.

One other point in defence of Dragons, in order to take one, not only am I sacrificing points, but also an additional Hero slot, which means if I take a Dragon, magic wise I'd be looking at a pair of Level 2 Sorcerers at best.

Burnthexenos.... What exactly do you mean by they require no tactics? They do! And quite a lot of them to get the most of it. And are you really surprised at the damage one can cause given it's horrific points cost? Including the Highborn and his toys, the Dragons weighs in well over 500 points! Thats right. Just over a QUARTER of my entire allowance in a single unit....

burnthexenos
26-06-2006, 22:38
As far as being "chessy" goes, I don't think that dragons themselves are that cause of the lable, but any flying, terror causing creature catches the monicure. I have seen dragons, greater daemons, other terror causing flyers creatures do nothing more in a game than fly behind enemy lines, force as many terror tests through proximity, block march movin, and kill mar machines. Large things such as these are a major points investment and seem to be better served out of combat than in it a good portion of the time.

I play a slaanesh chaos army for which I have fielded both a Chaos Dragon and an Exalted daemon and have seen entire flanks fold over due to terror without a single combat being fought. Armies, like Orcs and Goblins, depend on a level of panic management, in order to be affective, they need to take as few panic tests as possible. Dragons and such can simply break an entire army such as this without any offensive strike.

On the other side of things, I also play lizardmen. I has beared witness to Dragons and Greater Daemons start at one end of a table in deployment, I will place my scouting skinks in woods out of line of sight. Opponent gets first turn. He can simple fly, his/her's giant flying terror factory over near the trees and plop him down. Now without being able to see the skinks there, the dragon has effectively forced them into a high risk panic test due to terror, even though the skinks cannot see the dragon through the trees.

My point from all of this is, that dragons themselves are not the reason for the cheesy label, it is the terror casuing ability, combined with flying that has earned them and others such a dubious title. Then again, its just my humble opinion.

Yep, its definetly the terror that is cheese. Aswell as 6 attacks and toughness 6, with strength 6, they are the cheesiest thing out there.

Why the hell dont they cost as much as greater deamons?? They are roughly the same stats, and can be ridden by an uber lord!


But Terror is a viable tool, and indeed tactic.

Yea, so is charging my steam tank at a unit of elf infantry. It dont make it right.


Take my earlier example of a Dragon accompanied by Harpies. Anyone fleeing from the Dragon is liable to be run down by my amazing, disposable Harpies!

This is one of the reason why Dragons= :cheese:


And believe it or not, Terror, in my experience, rarely achieves what I'd like it too.

Well not in my experience!


One other point in defence of Dragons, in order to take one, not only am I sacrificing points, but also an additional Hero slot, which means if I take a Dragon, magic wise I'd be looking at a pair of Level 2 Sorcerers at best.


Aw, poor you. Nevermind the fact that you just got a 320pt monster that should cost 650pts! Greater Deamons take up extra hero slots, and they are still around 650pts!


Burnthexenos.... What exactly do you mean by they require no tactics? They do! And quite a lot of them to get the most of it. And are you really surprised at the damage one can cause given it's horrific points cost? Including the Highborn and his toys, the Dragons weighs in well over 500 points! Thats right. Just over a QUARTER of my entire allowance in a single unit....

It should be more like a third of your points, and thats just for the Dragon!

They have comparable ability to greater deamons, for half the points cost. They can be ridden by nasty lords. They have a 3+ armour save. They cause terror. They can negate ranks by themselves. They can destroy entire armies.

So what if they cost a quarter of your points? A greater Deamon costs more than that, and is much easier to kill or to sidetrack.

Dont forget, you would be paying for your general anyway, so really, you are paying only 320pts to mount your general on a killing machine of almighty DOOOOOOOOOOM!!

burnthexenos
26-06-2006, 22:41
Oh, I almost forgot...


Lords
High born with; The Blade of Ruin (ignores armour saves), Heart Stone of Darkness (4+ ward save), heavy armour and a sea dragon cloak. He is mounted on a Black Dragon- 555pts

Heroes
Dragon Knight (Beastmaster) with; Light armour, lance, sea dragon cloak and The Ring of Hotek (any doubles for casting within 6" cause a miscast). Mounted on a manticore (using the model of the Dragonmaster Dragon)-262pts

Dragon Knight (Beastmaster) with; Light armour, lance, sea dragon cloak and The Seal of Ghrond (+1 dispell dice). Mounted on a manticore (using the model of the Dragonmaster Dragon)-262pts

Stouty, that is amongst one of the cheesiest army lists I have ever seen! 3 Damn monsters, including a Dragon! And you plan on 2 hydras aswell! Im surprised anyone will play you. You say you play in a "fairly jokey enviroment", yet if I saw that across the table I would pack up my things and go home! That army is worse than the Bret RAF!! (well, not quite, but it comes close).

Sanjuro
26-06-2006, 22:59
They have comparable ability to greater deamons, for half the points cost. They can be ridden by nasty lords. They have a 3+ armour save. They cause terror. They can negate ranks by themselves. They can destroy entire armies.


They can also be killed by a single shot from a great cannon/stonethrower.

maxwell123
26-06-2006, 23:15
Aw, poor you. Nevermind the fact that you just got a 320pt monster that should cost 650pts! Greater Deamons take up extra hero slots, and they are still around 650pts!

Oh please. Greater Daemons are FAR more powerful than dragons.

The Greater Daemons of Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch are level 4 wizards as well and have better stats than a dragon.

A Bloodthirster has killing blow, frenzy, magic resistance (2), +2/3A, +1S, +1W and a Daemonic 5+ ward save. They are MUCH deadlier than dragons.


No way in hell should dragons cost as much as Greater Daemons (or even anywhere close).

gortexgunnerson
26-06-2006, 23:59
Greater deamons are a lot harder and a lot harder to kill! I have never found Dragon that effective but I do play Dwarfs most of the time. Mass fire and a large target makes for a very dead dragon normally. However I have faced them with a lightly armoured High Elf army and still brought the dragon down. I think people think they are too hard and need big guns to kill them. I have always found mass fire is a very effective way of bringing down big gribblies! Even just 2 units of 10 thunders shooting at long range get a wound or 2 on odds. I find, as most players for or against agree if the dragon goes that pretty much wins the game. Most armies have something that can bring it down or hold it up, it just generally requires flexibility in the list. I saw in the GT one year a dragon take 4 wounds from Dire wolves and lose combat admittly not the most common thing but I generally find all it takes is abit of practice and a flexible list and his killing machines end up hiding for the game.

The real danger is big move and the fact they totally ignore terrain, but years of playing dwarfs (where everyone moves fast big gribbly or not) has shown their are mainly ways to protect your position. Most importantly army selction. If you take a chaos army with block of knight warriors and marauders and find yourself march blocked for the game then you be in the same situation against a great eagle, the list need flexibility. My dwarfs always concentrate fire on the flanks of my oppenent, not because the best targets are always there but because I try to herd my oppenent to my front.

Their is no army that cannot beat a dragon, just some are more at risk but in exchange they generally have an advantage against other things. A gunline can suffer to a dragon due to low Ld and panic but gets the adavantage of a strong shooting phase. Most stratergies in warhammer are a trade off of strengths, IMO opinion big monsters are a part of warhammer and people can either choose to have a counter measure or not. Without it they might get wiped out, or with it they might just waste points. Its a case of weighting the risk, I take my rune smith and magic resistance every game regardless of my openent, if I play khorne its hard luck, if I play seer council then its worth its weight in gold

MarcoPollo
27-06-2006, 00:38
I can appreciate why people might cry cheese when they see a dragon. I don't really care. Points are points. I can field alot of other things in the place of the points of the dragon/big nasty monster.

Playing against big nasties requires a different style of thinking/strategy than the usual head to head ground war. It is difficult to play against these because they usually will allow the player to dominate the movement phase. This is especially true against an infantry heavy army. It becomse a game of cat and mouse and there may never be any combat at all. Instead, it is about point counting during the game. If I can limit his dragon to 400 pts, and take out 700 victory points, then I am going to be the winner.

I don't particularly like to think like that way when I play. I like to co-ordinate match-ups that are combat favorable for me. I will sort the points out at the end of the game. But when playing big nasties, you have to remind yourself that that monster will play some evil tricks indeed. Results from rolling will be more cruicial as every wound means alot.

I just think that the player with the big nasty has alot more control over the pace of the game and can choose his battles over his opponent. The result of the game can be more of a coin flip on how the terror and combat rolling goes.

I'll still play the big nasty and have fun. But, it will require me to change my mindset about the style of play that I am used to.

Trunks
27-06-2006, 03:38
Oh, I almost forgot...



Stouty, that is amongst one of the cheesiest army lists I have ever seen! 3 Damn monsters, including a Dragon! And you plan on 2 hydras aswell! Im surprised anyone will play you. You say you play in a "fairly jokey enviroment", yet if I saw that across the table I would pack up my things and go home! That army is worse than the Bret RAF!! (well, not quite, but it comes close).

The army is illegal to begin with since Beastmasters on Manticores take up two hero choices. Even so if it were made legal (only one Beastmaster on Manticore), it isn't all that powerful. Taking two hydras really wouldn't even be worth the points at this level either.

Having one terror causer is good in 2000 points. Having two is great. When you have three or four in 2000 points, you can't make use of all that terror usually since regiments only ever have to test for terror once per game. The Terror on the Hydras will probably rarely come into effect, given that there are two fliers who can spread it fast. This means you are paying for abilities you aren't going to be using all that much at all.

Hydras aren't very impressive either. They aren't terrible or useless, but they aren't exactly super powered either. I'd rather spend my points on other things (and I do).

Dragons are not super powerful. They require a different mindset to fight, that is all. If you really wanted to prevent rear charges/flank charges, you could by utilizing terrain and placement of various regiments. People don't like to adapt to new situations though, so they immediately cry cheese.

I don't know why people are expecting cannons to take out a dragon in a single shot. The Dragon + Rider weigh in at around 500 points minimum. A 100 point cannon should not have good odds at taking out a 500 point model in one hit.

ElfGuy
27-06-2006, 07:39
It is not fair to call an army beardy based souly on the presence of a Dragon. You really should take a look at the whole army before passing judgement. For example a High Elf list with a Dragon, Scroll Caddy, Spearelves, Archers, Silver Helms, two Tiranoc Chariots, two Great Eagles, and two Bolt Throwers would be well rounded and competative despite having a Dragon. While a High Elf list with a Dragon, Scroll Caddy, multiple small Silver Helm units, six Tiranoc Chariots, and four Bolt Throwers is clearly over the top.

I also have a fun story about my friend's Dark Elf Dragon. In one game the Highborn and Dragon charged my Spearelf block (in the front) on the second turn. I failed my terror test and had my Spearelf block cut down. In turn five the Dark Elf Dragon charged my other Spearelf block (in the front) and inflicted six wounds on my unit champion in a challenge. That Spearelf block lost by one and held until my turn where the unit suffered nine wounds and promptly broke. The Dragon netted 600 points before being killed by my Repeater Bolt Throwers on the final turn. Not a bad run for the flying lizard.

In the very next game that same Dark Elf Dragon was up against Lizardmen. On the second turn of the game a Stegadon fired a single bolt at the Dragon. It hit the rider who failed his ward, suffered three wounds, and died. The Dragon failed it's monster reaction test and was forced to rear charge the Dark Elf players own Cold One Knights. The Dragon dispatched the Cold One Knights and went on to kill the opponent's Stegadon. It then endured a dozen blowpipe wounds only to panic on the last turn. The Dragon basicly lost the game for the Dark Elf player.

I guess my point is that Dragons can be dicey (and fun). If your opponent wants to use a Dragon then you should not condem them for it unless they back it up with an unbalanced army.

Sanjuro
27-06-2006, 09:52
A 100 point cannon should not have good odds at taking out a 500 point model in one hit.

It doesn't have good odds, but it most certainly can do it. All it takes is that you roll a 6 on the 'number of wounds' die.

Gorbad Ironclaw
27-06-2006, 10:07
And believe it or not, Terror, in my experience, rarely achieves what I'd like it too.


I agree. Terror is a gimmick. If I could get a cheaper dragon that was downgraded to cause fear instead of terror, I'd take it.

In something like 2 years of playing with a dragon, I can count the number ot times terror did anything on one hand. Including the time where it scared of a unit that was suppose to remain there and almost got the dragon killed...

Really, any army can deal with a dragon, it just requires a bit of tactics and knowing what to do. Keeping a tight battle line and not letting him pick his charges is a good start. It requires a bit of different thinking, but they are not that amazing. Playing with one have given a lot of useful information about defeating one, and I can't remember the last time I lost to a big flying monster(granted, partially because so few are used. And that should say something too...).

They are amazingly fragile if you can stack static CR against them. And you really don't want to be taking break tests on your 600 point model. Not to mention, with 1/4 of the army in a single model, how big do you think the rest of the army is?

Sanjuro
27-06-2006, 15:42
Not to mention that the really expensive dragons, the ones that cost upwards 700 or more (the most expensive one being a chaos dragon with a lord of tzeentch riding it, with full magic gear) will be very hard pressed to perform in accordance with their points.

What I mean is that they take up almost half the army, and they cannot take on half the enemy army at the same time. Killing a unit requires 2 turns: one to set up the charge and one to charge it down (assuming the enemy breaks on the first round). You get three of these combos in one game, and it's really tricky to kill enough stuff to make it worth the investment.

If you just feed the dragon a single cheap kamikaze unit, or tie it up for a single round, you will have crippled its effectiveness. There just isn't enough time for it to do everthing at the same time. It might here to have a staggered battleline, so the dragon cannot simply just roll up the entire line. But that's what we mean when we say it requires thinking outside the box.

Latro
27-06-2006, 16:16
... and that what I meant when I said that for some strange reason people always seem to asume that everybody who doesn't like dragons must have problems dealing with them on the battle-field.


:rolleyes:

hunter4925
27-06-2006, 16:19
While we are on the topic of Dragons, I have an interesting question involving them and a situation of possible "cheese". I understand that dragons fall unde the heading of "monsters", but hey also fall under the heading of "flyers". According to the rulebook, all "flyers" are considered to be skirmishers. Now knowing this, would it not be possible for a dragon to negate rank bonuses, despite having a unit strength of greater than 5?

I know that someone will say that it can soley based on its high unit strength, but that alone doesn't do it. I can charge a flank of a unit with 20 skinks and I still do not negate ranks. So in all, I guess my real question is, which rule takes priority for dragons, flyers or unit strength is reguards to negating ranks?

Viskrit
27-06-2006, 16:42
hunter4925 - Unit Strength. Dragons are not "units of flyers", they are just flyers. Big ones. :)

Sanjuro - Yes, it is hard to earn back all those points with a dragon, but that's not all there is to it. A unit can't be judged merely by its ability to earn its points. Even though a dragon doesn't kill enough enemies to make up for the points, the dragon is very likely to disturb the enemies battleplan dramatically. Having a big beastie flying around behind your lines tends to mess things up. :)

Thranduil
27-06-2006, 17:16
... and that what I meant when I said that for some strange reason people always seem to asume that everybody who doesn't like dragons must have problems dealing with them on the battle-field.


:rolleyes:


it would help if you actually defined what your problem is with dragons... :rolleyes:

It seems to me that if a player is going to fear/dislike/claim "beardiness" on a dragon for the sole purpose of it being a flying terror causer, then why not call cheese on a WE Noble toting a Blight of Terrors and riding a Great Eagle? It's pretty much the same thing, just different stats and far less points - 175 as opposed to 320+expensive lord choice.

On a further note, if we were to outlaw/raise the points cost for dragons, then why not up the points cost for mages too? As I sarcastically remarked in another thread, why not make magic-users 0-1 for every 1000 points? Why stop with dragons? Why not get rid of all the other big gribblies? Here's an idea: why don't we just make WFB a game of nothing but rank and file troops and warmachines? Make every army relatively the same except for slight differences in stats and overall look of the models? Sorry, but WFB is set in a fantasy world with diverse fantastic cultures and mythical creatures and magic flinging wizards. A game without these elements would be, IMHO, very boring indeed.

burnthexenos
27-06-2006, 17:57
They can also be killed by a single shot from a great cannon/stonethrower.

Right, lets stop it with all this "single shot" stuff. Yes, they can go down to a single shot, but its very, very unlikely (and impossible if its not an Empire great cannon). 2 Gnoblars with sharp stuff could kill Archaon in a single round of shooting..its just unlikely...very unlikely!

I would also point out that the keeper of secrets, and lord of change only have 6 wounds, so can be killed with a single shot. Its only the bloodthirster and great unclean one that can survive a fully powered cannonball hit (from an Empire great cannon).



The Greater Daemons of Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch are level 4 wizards as well and have better stats than a dragon.


Hardly. The great unclean one is movement 4, so it isnt going anywhere fast. The bloodthirster suffers from frenzy, so can be led off in al directions. The slannesh one only has 4 attacks if I remember correctly, and of course, they all suffer from deamonic instability.

Yes, they are level 4 wizards, but the tzentchh lore isnt anything to cry about, same with nurgle. Your lv4 wizard is lit up like a christmas tree, saying SHOOT ME!! Expecially the Great Unclean one. I have never played a game when it got into combat.

The slannesh lore is good, ill admit that, but, it has worse stats than a dragon and doesn't have a 3+ save (instead replaced with a 5+ deamonic aura).

Dragons are every bit as good as greater deamons, and their points cost should reflect that.


A Bloodthirster has killing blow, frenzy, magic resistance (2), +2/3A, +1S, +1W and a Daemonic 5+ ward save. They are MUCH deadlier than dragons.

Whereas the Dragon is mounted with an uber lord on top, adding loads to the attacks.

The bloodthirster suffers from frenzy. This alone makes the Dragon better.


Dragons are not super powerful. They require a different mindset to fight, that is all. If you really wanted to prevent rear charges/flank charges, you could by utilizing terrain and placement of various regiments. People don't like to adapt to new situations though, so they immediately cry cheese.

No, I just dont like things been stupidly undercosted.



Having one terror causer is good in 2000 points. Having two is great. When you have three or four in 2000 points, you can't make use of all that terror usually since regiments only ever have to test for terror once per game. The Terror on the Hydras will probably rarely come into effect, given that there are two fliers who can spread it fast. This means you are paying for abilities you aren't going to be using all that much at all.

Im sure you mean: Having one terror causer in 2000pts is cheese. Having 2 is cheesier. 3 or 4 is roughly the same amount of cheese as 2.


It is not fair to call an army beardy based souly on the presence of a Dragon. You really should take a look at the whole army before passing judgement. For example a High Elf list with a Dragon, Scroll Caddy, Spearelves, Archers, Silver Helms, two Tiranoc Chariots, two Great Eagles, and two Bolt Throwers would be well rounded and competative despite having a Dragon. While a High Elf list with a Dragon, Scroll Caddy, multiple small Silver Helm units, six Tiranoc Chariots, and four Bolt Throwers is clearly over the top.

Nope, both armies are cheese, they both include Dragons. Anything else included in the army is irrelavant. They are both as cheesy as each other.


I guess my point is that Dragons can be dicey (and fun). If your opponent wants to use a Dragon then you should not condem them for it unless they back it up with an unbalanced army.

Ill condemn who I like, because Dragons are cheese.



On a further note, if we were to outlaw/raise the points cost for dragons, then why not up the points cost for mages too? As I sarcastically remarked in another thread, why not make magic-users 0-1 for every 1000 points? Why stop with dragons? Why not get rid of all the other big gribblies? Here's an idea: why don't we just make WFB a game of nothing but rank and file troops and warmachines? Make every army relatively the same except for slight differences in stats and overall look of the models? Sorry, but WFB is set in a fantasy world with diverse fantastic cultures and mythical creatures and magic flinging wizards. A game without these elements would be, IMHO, very boring indeed.

Magic is nothing compared to the super cheese of a Dragon. And, I am planning on limiting all big gribblies. You can only use 1, and the game has to be at least 3000pts. You can use another when we get to 6000pts.

This counts for everything, from the Empire Pegasai, to the mightiest Chaos Dragon. Flyers are just too cheesy. The same rule applies to bret pegasus knights. 1 unit of bret pegasai in 3000pts, and not another until 6000pts. None of that "my lord is on a royal pegasus" ******** either. These rules are final, no longer will I face a lord on dragon and 2 heros on pegasai. No longer will I face a unit of bret pegasus knights before 3k. This will make the game ncie and balanced.

Viskrit
27-06-2006, 18:09
Bloodthirsters can be directed away from the enemy, effectively allowing you not to charge whenever you wish. They don't have a 360 degree charge arc.

Keepers of Secrets have 6 attacks, not 4.

Also, you forget that by putting ones general on a big monster, you draw much attention to him. Also, when he is flying around the enemy lines, he isn't able to lend his Ld to the troops. Putting the leader of the army on a big gribbly brings benefits, but also risks.

Scythe
27-06-2006, 18:24
Right, lets stop it with all this "single shot" stuff. Yes, they can go down to a single shot, but its very, very unlikely (and impossible if its not an Empire great cannon). 2 Gnoblars with sharp stuff could kill Archaon in a single round of shooting..its just unlikely...very unlikely!

I would also point out that the keeper of secrets, and lord of change only have 6 wounds, so can be killed with a single shot. Its only the bloodthirster and great unclean one that can survive a fully powered cannonball hit (from an Empire great cannon).

Hardly. The great unclean one is movement 4, so it isnt going anywhere fast. The bloodthirster suffers from frenzy, so can be led off in al directions. The slannesh one only has 4 attacks if I remember correctly, and of course, they all suffer from deamonic instability.

Yes, they are level 4 wizards, but the tzentchh lore isnt anything to cry about, same with nurgle. Your lv4 wizard is lit up like a christmas tree, saying SHOOT ME!! Expecially the Great Unclean one. I have never played a game when it got into combat.

The slannesh lore is good, ill admit that, but, it has worse stats than a dragon and doesn't have a 3+ save (instead replaced with a 5+ deamonic aura).

Dragons are every bit as good as greater deamons, and their points cost should reflect that.


What have you been smoking? First, yes a keeper and a lord of change have 6 wounds, but they have a ward save, making them a lot more difficult to deal with. A keeper of secrets has 6 attacks, not four. The thirsters frenzy is not nearly that bad combined with fly (lots of charging options due 20" sight, and you could even fly backwards).

Daemonic instability means that you might hold were a Dragon flees, pretty nice if you ask me. Not only that, but the daemons have a higher leadership as the dragon on top of it.

Level 4 is good enough on its own. That Tzeentch or Nurgle aren't the best lores around is true. However, the are also far from the worst around.

And you are completely forgetting all the stat differences and daemonic items the greater daemons get. The keeper of secrets, for example, has way higher WS, I as a dragon, plus soporific musk and some other gifts. These things add up you know.

And finally: greater daemons don't suffer from a T3 elf on top of them.

Thranduil
27-06-2006, 20:02
Magic is nothing compared to the super cheese of a Dragon. And, I am planning on limiting all big gribblies. You can only use 1, and the game has to be at least 3000pts. You can use another when we get to 6000pts.

This counts for everything, from the Empire Pegasai, to the mightiest Chaos Dragon. Flyers are just too cheesy. The same rule applies to bret pegasus knights. 1 unit of bret pegasai in 3000pts, and not another until 6000pts. None of that "my lord is on a royal pegasus" ******** either. These rules are final, no longer will I face a lord on dragon and 2 heros on pegasai. No longer will I face a unit of bret pegasus knights before 3k. This will make the game ncie and balanced.

How is this a response? Clearly you didn't read the rest of my post:


Here's an idea: why don't we just make WFB a game of nothing but rank and file troops and warmachines? Make every army relatively the same except for slight differences in stats and overall look of the models? Sorry, but WFB is set in a fantasy world with diverse fantastic cultures and mythical creatures and magic flinging wizards. A game without these elements would be, IMHO, very boring indeed.

burnthexenos, what army do you play? What kind of list do you field? Have you put it up on this site and, if not, can you post it? What sort of armies do you like to play against/don't find cheesy? Innocent questions really; I just want to know where you're coming from, and what type of game you like to play.

Trunks
27-06-2006, 20:42
The bloodthirster suffers from frenzy, so can be led off in al directions
. . .
The bloodthirster suffers from frenzy. This alone makes the Dragon better.

These are two foolish statements.

The Bloodthirster has Frenzy but he is a LARGE TARGET. This means that he is way harder to bait than many other frenzied units. Due to being a large target, he can charge right over regiments into regiments behind them. Due to his 50mm base and 20" flying movement, he has a very big charge area. You can't just lead the Bloodthirster around unless the bloodthirster player is a *****.

Frenzy isn't as big of a problem as most people make it out to be. Of course, Dragons aren't either . . .

burnthexenos
27-06-2006, 20:58
Also, you forget that by putting ones general on a big monster, you draw much attention to him. Also, when he is flying around the enemy lines, he isn't able to lend his Ld to the troops. Putting the leader of the army on a big gribbly brings benefits, but also risks.

Yes, but chances are, that Greater Deamon is your general aswell.

Erm, and basic ranked troops dont exist anymore, incase you have forgotten. The beardy ones that take dragons just take minimum core, and load up on specials and rares.


Bloodthirsters can be directed away from the enemy, effectively allowing you not to charge whenever you wish. They don't have a 360 degree charge arc.

Neither do Dragons. But a Dragon doesn't have to stay away from the enemy, or fly backwards. It can go whereever it pleases.



What have you been smoking? First, yes a keeper and a lord of change have 6 wounds, but they have a ward save, making them a lot more difficult to deal with. A keeper of secrets has 6 attacks, not four. The thirsters frenzy is not nearly that bad combined with fly (lots of charging options due 20" sight, and you could even fly backwards).

Firstly, its not a ward save. Its a deamonic aura save. Stuff like magic missiles will tear these things apart.

They have a 5+ deamonic aura, but the dragon has a 3+ armour. Seems about fair if you ask me.

The thirsters frenzy is awful with fly. You can lead it a merry dance from half way around the board!


Daemonic instability means that you might hold were a Dragon flees, pretty nice if you ask me. Not only that, but the daemons have a higher leadership as the dragon on top of it.

Yes, and it might mean you die where a Dragon escapes.


Level 4 is good enough on its own. That Tzeentch or Nurgle aren't the best lores around is true. However, the are also far from the worst around.


While level 4 is powerful on man sized mages, its less powerful on huge monsters. The enemy has a very real chance of taking away your casting ability, with a few warmachines or a couple of magic missiles.

Its much harder to target and destroy man sized models.


And you are completely forgetting all the stat differences and daemonic items the greater daemons get. The keeper of secrets, for example, has way higher WS, I as a dragon, plus soporific musk and some other gifts. These things add up you know.

You will hit on 3+ anyway, whether you are WS6, or WS9. It doesn't really matter, except against swordmasters, and other elite infantry.


And finally: greater daemons don't suffer from a T3 elf on top of them.

Thats a benefit. It adds more attacks to the overall model, making it much more likely to break stuff on the charge.



burnthexenos, what army do you play? What kind of list do you field? Have you put it up on this site and, if not, can you post it? What sort of armies do you like to play against/don't find cheesy? Innocent questions really; I just want to know where you're coming from, and what type of game you like to play.

I play Empire. I have not put it up on this site yet, but I will do so now.

Hmm, the sort of armies I like to play against...an all infantry High Elf army, any kind of Ogre Kingdom army, and Dwarves without too much beardy artillery, and most certainly without the anvil!

Here is my 2000pts list.

Characters

Wizard Lord- 280pts
Rod of Power
Dispel Scroll
Lv 4

Battle Wizard- 120pts
Dispel Scroll
Lv 2

Battle Wizard- 120pts
Dispel Scroll
Lv 2

Battle Wizard- 110pts
Wizards Staff
Lv 2

Core

10 Handgunners- 80pts

10 Handgunners- 80pts

10 Handgunners- 80pts

10 Handgunners- 80pts

10 Handgunners- 85pts
Marksman

5 Huntsmen- 50pts

5 Knights- 115pts

Special

Cannon- 100pts

Cannon- 100pts

Cannon- 100pts

Mortar- 75pts

Rare

Helblaster- 125pts

Steam Tank- 300pts
Helblaster

Basically, we line up the handgunenrs are artillery, blasting the enemy to bits, while nuking them with loads of heavens magic, and marchblocking them with huntsmen. Steam Tank and the Knights charge in when the enemy gets close, to claim the banners and stop them reaching the gunners. We deploy on the baseline for the maximum amount of shooting.

But beardy gits with Dragons can ruin this tactic if the cannons muck up turn 1! They fly at you, terrorise a load of units, meaning you have to focus stupid amounts of fire at them to kill them! Dragons and other flying creatures are broken, and need to be fixed!


The Bloodthirster has Frenzy but he is a LARGE TARGET. This means that he is way harder to bait than many other frenzied units. Due to being a large target, he can charge right over regiments into regiments behind them. Due to his 50mm base and 20" flying movement, he has a very big charge area. You can't just lead the Bloodthirster around unless the bloodthirster player is a *****.

Its still very easy to make him charge units he doesn't want to. He actually requires thought to use, unlike a Dragon.


Frenzy isn't as big of a problem as most people make it out to be. Of course, Dragons aren't either . . .

Dragons are a huge problem. They symbolise everything that is broken in the game!

Kahadras
27-06-2006, 21:05
But beardy gits with Dragons can ruin this tactic

Which is why Gunline-tastic hates them so much. Same with Bretonnia. Anything that can hand an Empire gunline army it's ass is labled as broken. One dimensional armies always run into stuff that can take them down easily. Just imagine all those failed terror tests for the handgunner units, cannon crew etc.

Kahadras

Razhem
27-06-2006, 21:25
Read the next message (double post)

burnthexenos
27-06-2006, 21:26
Which is why Gunline-tastic hates them so much. Same with Bretonnia. Anything that can hand an Empire gunline army it's ass is labled as broken. One dimensional armies always run into stuff that can take them down easily. Just imagine all those failed terror tests for the handgunner units, cannon crew etc.

Too right! Anything that stands a remote chance of winning against me is cheese!

Its not so much that I cant deal with them, its just its very dicey. If my 3 cannons destroy the dragon before it can set off a whole load of terror checks, ill win the game. If they cant, ill be taking those terror checks, which, with the absence of a high leadership general, is fairly dicey, and of course, it depends which units run. If the handgunners run, I can deal with it. If the Cannons, Mortar, and Helblaster runs I cant deal with it.

Of course, I spread my warmachines around to avoid this tactic. But this creates a whole different set of problem. The laser guided cannon (place wizard next to warmachine, cast missile spell...you get to measure the range..so you know how far to guess with your cannon) is less effective, as not all your wizards will get missile spells, meaning some guessing is required with the cannon.

And of course, spreading warmachines out means that each one is more vunerable to warmachine hunters, without the protection of the knights and steam tank, and supporting fire from the other warmachines. The tank and Knights, with the artillery spread over the battlefield, will only be able to cover 2 or 3 pieces, instead of all 5. You have to rely on the handgunenr units for protection.

(and no, I dont deploy my artillery next to each other, I know warmachine hunters can take them down. But Dragons force you to deploy further away than I normally would.)

Basically, Dragons means you have to setup your army in a more vunerable way, They are broken, cheese, and I hate them!

Razhem
27-06-2006, 21:31
For gods sake slappy (for those who haven´t noticed, it´s gunline), nobody gives a damn about what you think, your arguments are retarded at least, and you love playing those armies cause you know you can rape them with your list. Now if you want to discuss things, stop whinning and asume your damn list isn´t gonna beat everything, god, someone using a steam tank calling dragons cheese... Having liberated my rage ...
I´ve never had problems with big beast, hell, sometimes I felt my magic was too damn good (skaven, and no, I don´t use SAD). He charges a unit in my back? good for him, let him brake it, overrun to my battlefront and I´ll promptly charge him next turn for is love, rank, outnumber, banner, he better do a bloody damn show if he doesn´t want my pilling more stuff in, and yes, all attacks go to the rider (memories of plague monks killing dark elf highborn and having dragon leg it). Are they the easiest thing to take down? hell no, you have to use resources and be able to scrifice some stuff, but when it ends up in the open, it´s gonna hurt. Do I miss not having one in my ratmen? I like the variety,would I use it in competetive game? hell no, I want a general, not an idiot ignoring his duties and I´ve lost interest in playing all my eggs in one basket, don´t use screaming bell unless it´s 3000 pts.
Oh, a little note about the keeper of secrets for slappy who doesn´t even now **** about what he´s talking, what makes his weapon skill 9 so fearsome is that anything with weapon skill 8 or lower is hitting him on 5 because of a slanesh power, can you think on many things that go over that? I can´t, also remind you that movement 8 is practically flying movement while marching, so the keeper is a very nasty thing to fight

burnthexenos
27-06-2006, 21:32
For gods sake slappy (for those who haven´t noticed, it´s gunline), nobody gives a damn about what you think, your arguments are retarded at least, and you love playing those armies cause you know you can rape them with your list. Now if you want to discuss things, stop whinning and asume your damn list isn´t gonna beat everything, god, someone using a steam tank calling dragons cheese... Having liberated my rage ...

Its your arguement that is retarded.

Oh, incase YOU have not noticed, anything I cannot beat, is cheese. As I am obviously the greatest general the world has ever seen, I cannot lose if both armies are balanced. So, when I lose, it must be that the enemy army is cheese. Dont worry, you will soon understand...

Oh, and Steam Tanks are not cheese. Dragons are.


Oh, a little note about the keeper of secrets for slappy who doesn´t even now **** about what he´s talking, what makes his weapon skill 9 so fearsome is that anything with weapon skill 8 or lower is hitting him on 5 because of a slanesh power, can you think on many things that go over that? I can´t, also remind you that movement 8 is practically flying movement while marching, so the keeper is a very nasty thing to fight

Hitting it doesn't matter, you aint gonig to be able to wound it. You aint gonan kill it. WS means nothing, he will have wiped out your front rank anyway.

Movement 8 doesn't matter much, because he flies!

Venomizer
27-06-2006, 21:32
ok.......you have a gripe with Dragons (why I have no idea, they are very costly and in the majority of cases quite easy to kill), yet you play a list that would make even the worst "beard" player I know of blush.............uh huh:rolleyes:


Dragons are a huge problem. They symbolise everything that is broken in the game!

how exactly are dragons broken?, as I already have eluded to they are quite easy to kill and eat up a fair whack of points in the average game

given the choice of playing a list like yours and a list with a dragon in, give me the dragon every time

Stouty
27-06-2006, 21:33
While level 4 is powerful on man sized mages, its less powerful on huge monsters. The enemy has a very real chance of taking away your casting ability, with a few warmachines or a couple of magic missiles.

Its much harder to target and destroy man sized models.

Wait a minute!

What you just said was:

"With a few good warmachines and a couple magic missiles you can kill a huge monster"

Greater daemon>Dragon

So if GDs are easy enough kills, what's the problem with the weaker dragon?

And if they bother you so mutch lose a dispell scroll and take a thunder orb.

Razhem
27-06-2006, 21:35
umm, slap, I think your thinking of the flying chicken, the chicken is the one that flyes and has 4-5 (don´t remember now) attacks. The keeper has to run around and has 6 attacks...

devolutionary
27-06-2006, 22:05
People, please! I told you on the first page that this is gunline, why the hell are you still carrying on with this charade? They guy is rabidly inept and a total troll, probably done by someone with the intention of being funny. Just report him so we can ban him again.

burnthexenos
27-06-2006, 22:07
"With a few good warmachines and a couple magic missiles you can kill a huge monster"

Greater daemon>Dragon

So if GDs are easy enough kills, what's the problem with the weaker dragon?

And if they bother you so mutch lose a dispell scroll and take a thunder orb.

Yes, but its practically impossible to kill a man sized mage in a unit or a warmachine, you have to get into combat with it...and to do that you have to advance through the hail of fire.

Greater Deamons aint easy enough kills. Think about it. A few, in my mind, is about 4. And a coupel of magic missiles, actually getting through. Thats a hell of alot of firepower needed to take out that greater deamon.

But, my main gripe is that Dragons are too cheap. Whereas a greater deamon costs around 650pts, a Dragon is only 320pts.


umm, slap, I think your thinking of the flying chicken, the chicken is the one that flyes and has 4-5 (don´t remember now) attacks. The keeper has to run around and has 6 attacks...

Oh, indeed, I was thinking of the lord of change. Same basic principal applies though. Dragons are too cheap compared to Greater Deamons.

burnthexenos
27-06-2006, 22:09
ok.......you have a gripe with Dragons (why I have no idea, they are very costly and in the majority of cases quite easy to kill), yet you play a list that would make even the worst "beard" player I know of blush.............uh huh

My army is balanced. It has shooting, magic, and combat.


how exactly are dragons broken?, as I already have eluded to they are quite easy to kill and eat up a fair whack of points in the average game

6 wounds and toughness 6 is not easy to kill. They dont use up enough points. They should cost 650pts, and only for 3k+ games.

Brimstone
27-06-2006, 22:15
OK you are a banned user using a clone account and as a result you are now out of here.

May I remind everybody not to feed trolls.

Gorbad Ironclaw
27-06-2006, 22:15
Well, report filed. And please people, don't feed the troll. Hopefully we can get this thread cleaned up so we can return on topic.

Edit: Hooray for Brimstone:)

WillFightForFood
28-06-2006, 00:33
This whole disturbing incident leaves two questions unanswered:
#1 How did he get to 27 posts before banning?
#2 Why did he admit who he was when he will be instantly banned?

Back on topic:
Like any 500 point single model unit, when they go down, they go down hard. The advantage of the Dragon is that it continues to fight at full effectiveness until it dies. The disadvantage is that when it goes down you lose everything at once. Any loss of a Dragon is going to be catastrophic for an army, whereas the loss of a unit of the four that could be purchased with the Dragon's points isn't as debilitating.

jp22102000
28-06-2006, 01:45
if he plays empire, why doesn't he take a griffon with a elector count with a runefang? it not a dragon but it's almost as good

Thranduil
28-06-2006, 05:17
cause that'd be cheese jp22102000... just cheese so hairy and beardy that it makes my own facial hair jealous...

After I read his army list, I thought to myself "is this dude for f-ing real???" I was going to report him earlier for saying ********* in a post, but thought better of it cause I had to go to work... What an odd sense of humour that boy has... Or is he really like that in person?

Anway, yes, back on topic!

@WillFightForFood: depends on what you consider catastrophic... sure, losing 500+ points in a game is a bit much, but that's why the rest of the army has to be set up to endure the loss of the dragon. I feel that a list with a dragon shouldn't be built around the dragon itself, but as a main list with the dragon as a supportive role. When I make a dragon list, I make it so that the army can cope with the loss of a dragon... the later in the game, the better of course. :)

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-06-2006, 07:39
if he plays empire, why doesn't he take a griffon with a elector count with a runefang? it not a dragon but it's almost as good


Actually no. It's no way near as good as a dragon. In fact, it's not very good at all.

The dragon have one key advantage over the griff. It got an armour save! It means it doesn't really have to worry about basic shooting much. Unlike the griff, that will die to even basic missile fire. And when you take the runefang, the same apply to the elector count. To little armour to be able to survive.

WLBjork
28-06-2006, 07:58
After I read his army list, I thought to myself "is this dude for f-ing real???" I was going to report him earlier for saying ********* in a post, but thought better of it cause I had to go to work... What an odd sense of humour that boy has... Or is he really like that in person?


Apparantly, yes he is.

There was also a rumour about GW being extremely irate with him over posts on their forum.

Many of his topics have been wasted due to the fact that they always cry like this, whether it's WHFB or 40K.

Finnblood
28-06-2006, 09:39
I think gunlinetesticle's worst problem is that he doesn't understand the meaning of balanced. He thinks that balanced shooting+combat+magic. No that's not correct. Balanced is fair amount of this and that not preferring any typical type of units. And units are not simply "magic, combat and shooting"

They are support, hard-hitting and static troops. Equal amount of everything, preferring maybe static...

Oh, and gunline, feel free to come here in Finland anytime, me and me Good Ole Sledgehammer'll teach you the true meaning of broken!:D

Harry
28-06-2006, 10:28
It seems to me that if all you want to fight with/against is infantry and cavalry then warhammer ancients is the game for you.
Surely much of the fun of warhammer fantasy is the Dragons, Giants, Griffons, Steam tanks, Snotlings, Etc...

Part of the fun for me is seeing what an opponent presents on the battlefield and thinking "flip a do, how am i going to beat this little lot" (Or words to that effect)

True cheese is when someone trys to squeeze every little bit of advantage out of a list through monster, character, magic item combo. If it is there in the list to be chosen......choose it..... it will be at the expense of other potentially game winning units.

The art of warhammer is knowing your armies strengths and using them to best advantage to overcome the strengths and weaknesses of the army your opponent presents on the battlefield.

It is a poor general that blames his tools. If you are losing it is because you are choosing poorly from your list and/or failing to use the units you have chosen successfully.

So bring your Dragon and bring your Manticore and bring your Hydras and bring your chariots.
Now I know thats whats coming I will defeat you easily. Only by presenting an army on the battlefield your opponent has failed to anticipate and then using the right tactics to gain advantage over the army he has presented, can you hope to win.

Latro
28-06-2006, 14:47
There, I'm back again. Had to wait for the Troll-baited flaming to cool down ... I'm not going to bother replying to that sort of dribble. :p


it would help if you actually defined what your problem is with dragons... :rolleyes:

I could of course point you to the first post I made in this thread, but that’s a bit too easy … and it was on the short side as well.


It seems to me that if a player is going to fear/dislike/claim "beardiness" on a dragon for the sole purpose of it being a flying terror causer, then why not call cheese on a WE Noble toting a Blight of Terrors and riding a Great Eagle? It's pretty much the same thing, just different stats and far less points - 175 as opposed to 320+expensive lord choice.

Aragon the same as an eagle? I better not respond to that ... I might get sarcastic :D

Terror is not a problem at all, neither is flying or being a large monster … even it’s combat power is fine. It’s the combination of all these things and more that makes the dragon too good for the points it costs:

- Flying means that the dragon can pretty much go everywhere it pleases in a single turn. It can not be march-blocked, cornered or forced into awkward diverting and redirecting situations.

- Being a large target means the dragon can pick it’s targets without interference from things like screens, units trying to bait or divert and strong combat units trying to intercept you. Combine this with their fantastic charge-reach and you have a very powerful combination.

- Ah yes, and of course the US 5 … so this means the dragon can pretty much reach all units on an entire flank due to flying, it can see and charge them all due to it’s size and can take away the biggest advantage of infantry units due to it’s high unit strength.

- Speaking of powerful, the average dragon and it’s master will have about 10+ attacks with better than average WS and high strength. This means that a dragon slamming into the flank of a fully-ranked infantry regiment will cause about 6 wounds and win the combat by 5 … pretty good odds to break them don’t you think?

- What about defence? Well, with the 6 wounds at toughness 6 and a 3+ save the dragon doesn’t really care about any of the regular flank-protection units. Fast cavalry, skirmishers, flyers, shooting units … they will be lucky to score a single wound and would face utter destruction should they dare to charge at all.

- Terror can be nice, but is hardly a reliable game-breaker. On the other hand, the combination of Terror and it’s breath weapon are not that bad at disrupting a battery of warmachines when the dragon flies in from behind cover … more a tactic of opportunity than a serious threat though.

Put this all together and you have something that is a game-winner in the hands of any competent general. Especially when that general made the smart (and obvious) choice to create an army to go with it that’s good at taking advantage of the impact the dragon will have on the enemy.

… so what can you do against a dragon then?

Unless you have a dragon yourself or an impressive battery of warmachines (you know, the type of army that tends to invoke cries of “cheese”), not that much. There is nothing that can match the combination of speed, flexibility and combat-power the dragon has, so it will choose when and where it will fight … which means it will also win that fight. While the threat of the dragon usually comes from either the flank or the rear, the rest of the army will be coming as well … making it very hard, if not impossible, to create an effective battle-line.

… how do I know this?

Because I have used dragons as well … and the only time they didn’t perform well (and win me the battle) was either due to a bad mistake or very bad luck. So I stopped using dragons. It’s not that fun when you realise the entire battle report simply comes down to: “I had a dragon”. So nowadays, if I have the urge to field a dragon, I ask my opponent if he minds facing a dragon … that way he has a fair chance to prepare his army for it, because regular lists simply can not handle it.

Really, all of the tips I have read here so far are all either easily avoided by the dragon or a form of wishful thinking and hoping for a lot of luck.


:cool:

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-06-2006, 16:52
Unless you have a dragon yourself or an impressive battery of warmachines (you know, the type of army that tends to invoke cries of “cheese”), not that much. There is nothing that can match the combination of speed, flexibility and combat-power the dragon has, so it will choose when and where it will fight … which means it will also win that fight. While the threat of the dragon usually comes from either the flank or the rear, the rest of the army will be coming as well … making it very hard, if not impossible, to create an effective battle-line.

… how do I know this?

Because I have used dragons as well … and the only time they didn’t perform well (and win me the battle) was either due to a bad mistake or very bad luck. So I stopped using dragons. It’s not that fun when you realise the entire battle report simply comes down to: “I had a dragon”. So nowadays, if I have the urge to field a dragon, I ask my opponent if he minds facing a dragon … that way he has a fair chance to prepare his army for it, because regular lists simply can not handle it.

Really, all of the tips I have read here so far are all either easily avoided by the dragon or a form of wishful thinking and hoping for a lot of luck.


:cool:

I sorry to say, if your opponents can't defeat a army lead by a dragon, they need some practice.

I defeated the last 3 dragon armies I faced, without having even a single artillery preice, or having a flying monster myself. In two of those games I even killed the dragon(or rather, ran it down when it broke from combat), in the 3rd it unfortuantly managed to get away, but I mauled the rest of the army.

It's correct that the dragon have speed, hitting power and the bonus(usually) of being a large target. However, that doesn't mean it can charge whatever it wants, or that you can't corner it or force it to go somewhere.

First of all, it can only charge a unit if it have room to land. So you can sit happily there with the flank to the dragon, if you just make sure there isn't a 50*50 space it can land in. Do that over your whole battle line, and suddenly you are controlling where it can land.

Of course, the dragon can always charge one of your outer units, and go for the overrun/pursuit into something else. However, you will know what units it can charge, and you can set up counter charges or screens in advance for that too. A multie layered battleline is a nightmare for a dragon, as it will have to deal with all the small insignificant stuff before it gets to any real points.

And it also means that it is likely to get bogged down and counter charged at some point. And forget about actually killing it, thats not the goal. Beating it in combat is. Forcing it to take break tests. Eventually it fails, and runs off.

A dragon hits hard, but it doesn't hit that hard when you flank it with infantry. And thats the whole reason for doing the elaborate dance with the multi layered battle line. Either making it so that you can counter charge the dragon. Or make it so that he knows you will, and cant charge anything worthwhile, and so doesn't charge.

Yes, you will have to adjust to playing against a dragon. But it's by no means impossible to beat. And it doesn't really require special tools to do it either. Any army list can do it, even if not every army build can do it. Just requires practice.

Latro
28-06-2006, 17:34
I sorry to say, if your opponents can't defeat a army lead by a dragon, they need some practice.

... but that goes both ways. If you can defeat your opponents dragons so easily, perhaps they are the ones that need some practice.

Look at your example: squeezing your battle-line close together to prevent the dragon from landing. That will work, 'nuff said. Does that force the dragon into a risky combat? Not at all, it could simply fly behind your lines and threaten rear-charges ... no squeezing your way out of that one. Or picking one of the outer-units like you said ... just breaking it, not pursueing. And if you have support threatening to counter-charge? Well, the dragon simply charges the support unit instead.

We can theory-hammer all day long about this, but that won't change a thing. Your experience against dragons (and with them) told you that they can be dealt with by any army (without preperation). My experiences using it have told me that it rules surpreme against an unprepared enemy.

... and I believe that because it simply can't be forced into a situation it doesn't want to be in. Everything else in WarHammer has a weakness (movement, combat etc), but the dragon doesn't. If the player doesn't make mistakes, the dragon is a tool that will win battles.


:cool:

gortexgunnerson
28-06-2006, 17:40
It seems to me that if all you want to fight with/against is infantry and cavalry then warhammer ancients is the game for you.
Surely much of the fun of warhammer fantasy is the Dragons, Giants, Griffons, Steam tanks, Snotlings, Etc...

In strong agreement with everything except the Steam tank, as it doesn't use normal warhammer rules and is very much a 40K incurrsion into the far better system of Warhammer. But that is a matter that has already been debated to death and shouldn't be here.

I have a fun suggestion as abit of laugh, we should play dragon versis dragon killers! Next gaming night get together and give one of you a dragon army and 1 a normal army. Post the results and we'll have like a mini experiment?

Any takers?

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-06-2006, 17:55
... and I believe that because it simply can't be forced into a situation it doesn't want to be in. Everything else in WarHammer has a weakness (movement, combat etc), but the dragon doesn't. If the player doesn't make mistakes, the dragon is a tool that will win battles.


Of course it can. It's just harder to do than with say an infantry unit.

A flying move of 20" is damn good, no denying that. But you can still set it up so there are large parts of the table the dragon either can't land in, or doesn't want to land in.

Setting up counter charges etc, won't make the dragon automatically fall into the trap of course. But when we are talking about a 600ish point model, and it spends turn after turn of doing nothing, then thats fine with me too. You might not be able to kill the dragon, but you can certainly win the game.

If dragons was as all powerful, you would see more people using them. Especially in a tournament setting, and frankly, they are pretty rare.

Thranduil
30-06-2006, 16:00
@Latro: Well, thanks for redefining why it is you dislike dragons (saved me the time of searching for it! :D)... and I invite you to fully read my post comparing a dragon to a noble on an eagle with blight of terrors:


It seems to me that if a player is going to fear/dislike/claim "beardiness" on a dragon for the sole purpose of it being a flying terror causer...

There had been a comment about the fact that it wasn't so much the dragon's stats, but more the fact that a dragon is a flying terror-causer. That's all I was responding to. :)


- Speaking of powerful, the average dragon and it’s master will have about 10+ attacks with better than average WS and high strength. This means that a dragon slamming into the flank of a fully-ranked infantry regiment will cause about 6 wounds and win the combat by 5 … pretty good odds to break them don’t you think?

10+ attacks? That is a bit nuts... I do know that the maximum a WE dragonrider can have is 9 or 10 S6 attacks in total... And 7th edition will nerf this a little, considering that mounted characters/units with great weapons will be shortchanged to +1S instead of the current +2S, making 4 or 5 of those attacks (on part of the highborn) S5 attacks instead of the current S6 that seems to be oh so common with dragonriders.

If dragons/big monsters are such game winners, then how come we don't see them in every army? They do cost a lot of points, take up a hero slot, and must have a lord on top of them (taking much needed leadership away from the rest of the force). I'll agree that, given ideal circumstances, a dragon can be a mighty force on the table top, but given ideal circumstances, just about any character/elite unit/magic user can be a game winner.

Harry
03-07-2006, 13:12
[QUOTE=Latro] There, I'm back again. Had to wait for the Troll-baited flaming to cool down ... I'm not going to bother replying to that sort of dribble. :p

Whos dribble were you refering to?

[Quote = Latro] Really, all of the tips I have read here so far are all either easily avoided by the dragon or a form of wishful thinking and hoping for a lot of luck.


My tip...Turn up with a Dragon.

Commissar von Toussaint
03-07-2006, 14:27
It seems to me that the real question is: What do you expect from dragons and large monsters in terms of combat power?

As I'm working my way through my own game design, that's one of the questions I have to answer.

Dragons aren't what they used to be. I'm reminded of the 5th ed. Imperial-class beasties that could fly high, drop down without warning and basically crush and army by itself.

Balance-wise, this wasn't a lot of fun, but it wasn't necessarily unrealistic.

Thinking of various descriptions of mythical dragons, I'm not sure I like the idea of them serving as line units or mounts for mighty heroes. In terms of game rules, they're a lot like assault helicopters - they bound around the board and, when the get where they want to be, dish out a lot of damage at short range.

But a frontal attack on line units is suicide for them.

My point is that for dragons to really work, they need to be the centerpiece of the army you are fighting. That also means that your opponent should be aware that there is a dragon present when they are making their list.

Probably the biggest problem balance-wise when it comes to WHFB is that players have bought into the GW propaganda that the game is somehow balanced enough for tournament-style play even in casual games. It isn't.

The appropriate way to play it is to discuss the scenario, build the armies and go at it. "Pick-up" games, while fun, aren't usually even.

I know we've discussed "tooling up" before, but I think it's really essential, both from a game balance and a fluff perspective.

Balance-wise, there are enough race-specific items (Helm of the Skaven Slayer) that are utterly worthless and stupid to take for a general-purpose list. The only time you would use them is when you know who you are fighting - and they in turn expect you to have them.

This dovetails with the fluff argument. Armies in WHFB shouldn't just be marching around the countryside randomly, bouncing into each other like bumper cars.

Armies in that time period spent very little time in the field. Feudal levies could be called up only for short amounts of time, and the campaigning season was short. So it is entirely realistic for the presence of a large monster to be known and for appropriate means to be taken to deal with it.

If you approach the game from that angle, dragons and such aren't nearly as bad.

The problem is really that people think they aren't going to be fighting one and one just happens to show up. That's not only unbalancing but unrealistic in the extreme.

(BTW, the same applies to steam tanks and other major critters. Steam tanks are damn unique and the clatter, noise and rumor of one should be known throughout the countryside long before the armies meet.)

Mad Doc Grotsnik
03-07-2006, 19:01
Is an excellent question you've posed their matey.

So I shall endeavour to supply you with an answer that does it justice! But be warned, my ramble-o-meter is reading high right now.

Anyways.

What do I expect from a Dragon?

Well, I expect a kick ass Beasty which will put the fear of god into my opponents. Thats first and foremost.

However, I certainly do not expect, nor want, it to be capable of thrashing apart my opponents army single handedly. At least, not dependably.

I expect it's Breath attack to be fairly useful. As a Dark Elf player, my Black Dragon certainly has that. It's just a shame that it's typically better off engaging combat than fart arsing around exposing it's poor oral hygiene.

I expect my Dragon to actually *need* it's masters presence to aid it. I can tell you from experience, that without Mr Highborn on top swinging around the Draich of Dark Power, my Dragon is somewhat wussier.

I expect my Dragon to absorb a lot of abuse from my opponents line without dying, but not enough that I get away with twatty tactics like just leaving it out in the open.

One thing I would like to see is some kind of random attacks, much like a Giant. This actually applies to all big gribblies, as somehow standard attacks just don't seem, well, Bestial enough. Something like 'Lash Tail' where it causes D6 automatic S6 hits, 'Bellow' ala Yell and Bawl, stuff like that. Make them less predictable in battle.

Also, as a kind of limiting factor, perhaps the Dragon itself should eat into the Lords Magic Item allowance. Put it this way, my Dragon Riding Lord is pretty damned tough. Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield of Ghrond, Black Gem (I think that the one!) and a Sword of Power. He can take it, and dish it out in equal measure. If I lost 25 points, then suddenly I'm on the back foot Magic Items wise.

I have to admit, having used lots of monsters for a while, it gets pretty boring as they are only capable of so much, and my tactical repartee has suffered as a consequence.

Archaon
03-07-2006, 20:09
The thing is that with 2000 points some armies have next to nothing to effectively stop a Dragon and its Rider and this may be very frustrating to some and the cheese cries come faster.

At most people have heavy long distance firepower with cannons, Warplightning cannons and similar and even then you won't take out the Dragon by turn 2 without big luck.

Smaller monsters such as Manticores, Griffons and the like are manageable since they don't have natural armor, comparable low wound count and "only" toughness 5 which you can shoot down quite effectively in one round of shooting (as has happened with my Manticore yesterday in a tournament.. lost him 2 out 3 times to shooting and subsequent close combat).

They can be hit or miss.. either you can manage to take out the main unit of the enemy or you just fly around and nab on the occasional unit or take out single models like warmachines or skirmisher units.

Terror is also a very risky game.. you rely on Terror when you land in the middle of the enemy artillery department you might as well play Russian roulette.

Trunks
04-07-2006, 05:57
The thing is that with 2000 points some armies have next to nothing to effectively stop a Dragon and its Rider and this may be very frustrating to some and the cheese cries come faster.

What army doesn't have something to stop a Dragon at the 2000 point level? There are tools in every army book for taking out a dragon.

scavenseer
04-07-2006, 10:46
Okay. I'll admit it. I use a Dragon in 2,000 points. In the same army, I also take a Manticore, 4 Chariots and 2 War Hydras, plus some Repeater Crossbowmen.

My army is heavily themed towards big gribbly monsters, to the degree where I sacrifice any and all static Combat Resolution, and Magic, both offensive and defensive. I have fairly respectable firepower in the form of 30 Repeater Crossbows, but nothing that can really win the game for me.

You could all my eggs are in one basket. If I'm going to squish you into the dirt, I'm going to have to use my big gribbly stuff well.

And yet, merely because of the Dragons presence, I'm called beardy and cheesey. And quite frankly, thats not fair at all. Heres some important news for those unaware. The chances of a Highborn on Dragon winning a frontal charge combat are pretty bloody slim. Out of 9 attacks, I need to kill 6 to win. 3 to equal your ranks, 1 to equal your standard, 1 for outnumber, and the final wound to avoid losing draws (Musicians!). Hard as I am, thats really not horrifically likely. So, more often than not, I'll fart **** about with my flying gribblies in an effort to set up flank, or preferrably, rear, charges.

Such behavior does actually rely on tactics.

So why am I labelled as a beardy sod, just because of my armies theme? It needs to come to you, has several glaring weaknesses, and gets royally screwed by terrain (I have never beaten Wood Elves!)

After all that you cannot beat wood elves? Dude you have really bad luck, i have beaten wood elves without losing a single monster!! (it helps when your executioners all hit and kill 20+ forest girls every charge!!)

Archaon
04-07-2006, 11:42
What army doesn't have something to stop a Dragon at the 2000 point level? There are tools in every army book for taking out a dragon.

Most of the things i can remember right now are only ranged attacks. Cannons, magic and high powered shots of a kind.

Everything else is close combat related and if the player knows what he's doing he'll avoid unfavorable close combat situations.

The thing is that some of these tools are not normally found in a 2000 point army (especially not in a tournament army which should be balanced).

Gorbad Ironclaw
04-07-2006, 14:56
Most of the things i can remember right now are only ranged attacks. Cannons, magic and high powered shots of a kind.


Nono, thats the big mistake everybody makes. As I keep saying, shooting is just to herd the dragon. To kill it you have to be really, really lucky. I lost my dragon twice to shooting. Both times to massed RBT batteries, on a table with no terrain.

It's good for making the dragon hide tho, and if you can put a few wounds on it thats ace.




Everything else is close combat related and if the player knows what he's doing he'll avoid unfavorable close combat situations.

He will, yes. But thats just perfect for holding off the dragon. Remember, you don't need to kill the dragon to defeat the army. If he have 600 points flying around not engaging anything because he is to scared. Thats a victory in it self.

Besides, almost every time, he will have to risk something at some point. The trick is to make the trap seems worthwhile.

Commissar von Toussaint
04-07-2006, 16:04
You said two things that got me thinking.


I expect my Dragon to actually *need* it's masters presence to aid it. I can tell you from experience, that without Mr Highborn on top swinging around the Draich of Dark Power, my Dragon is somewhat wussier.

Thematically, for my game, dragons aren't mounts. They are very rare, almost mythical. Yes, they have been seen and killed, but dragons are cited in civilized areas once in a century or so.

I also take the view that dragons are quite intelligent and would never submit to being an ersatz warhorse for some git with a sword.

So as I design my own dragons, I do so from the perspective that if they indulgle in a field battle, it is because the dragon is the commander.


One thing I would like to see is some kind of random attacks, much like a Giant. This actually applies to all big gribblies, as somehow standard attacks just don't seem, well, Bestial enough. Something like 'Lash Tail' where it causes D6 automatic S6 hits, 'Bellow' ala Yell and Bawl, stuff like that. Make them less predictable in battle.

I like it. I don't think it has to be random, but I think that there should be a tradeoff. Actually, I think dragons should either get to breathe or make a special kind of attack. Since in my rules any unit that takes casualties from shooting has to make a morale check, a breath weapon attack is arguably better than close combat - though I'll probably have it do less overall damage.

Back to WHFB, I agree that there are ways to drop a dragon in close combat. Many armies have characters and magic items that can do the job. Empire has a dragonslayer sword that could do quite a number. Other armies simply have way harder characters.

Our group never used them that much because they tended to be point sinks and very distracting. The guy with the dragon was always trying to figure out how to max it out rather than simply use it as an integrated part of the army.

That's probably the biggest thing about using them: they have an outsized effect on the game. No one worries about maxing out each individual line unit and getting the most for their points value. Take a dragon, though, and that's all you think about.

vampires are cool!
05-07-2006, 11:01
i tend to only ever take dragons in big armies where i have a lot of points to throw around, but when i do i go mad with them and have as many big gribblies as i can.
in a 2k battle i've never had anyone complian when i used one though, is your opponant a dwarf player by any chance?

Saxon
05-07-2006, 23:23
Personally I have no problems facing dragons (especially since I field one), especially elf ones which only have a T3 character riding it.
Your T5 chaos lord on dragon with the 3+ ward is an entirely different proposition

Math Mathonwy
06-07-2006, 10:18
I don't like Dragons because of one thing and one thing only: they become the focus of the game. Suddenly all the other elements in the opposing army are relegated to support status. If I manage to kill the dragon, I win the game. If I don't, I'll lose. Not every time, but most of the time. It turns the game into something more boring.

Archaon
06-07-2006, 10:19
Nono, thats the big mistake everybody makes. As I keep saying, shooting is just to herd the dragon. To kill it you have to be really, really lucky. I lost my dragon twice to shooting. Both times to massed RBT batteries, on a table with no terrain.

It's good for making the dragon hide tho, and if you can put a few wounds on it thats ace.




He will, yes. But thats just perfect for holding off the dragon. Remember, you don't need to kill the dragon to defeat the army. If he have 600 points flying around not engaging anything because he is to scared. Thats a victory in it self.

Besides, almost every time, he will have to risk something at some point. The trick is to make the trap seems worthwhile.

But this can also work the other way.. place a Dragon behind enemy lines (hopefully not within the line of powerful ranged attacks) and watch how the opponent has to decide if he turns around the unit to face the Dragon thus turning their backside towards your advancing forces.

He does not and you get a backcharge against a regiment.. possibly a challenge from a character which you should be able to deal with as long as he's not tooled up for character assassination.

RBTs are amongst the things that can really hurt a big monster but it took me a great deal of luck to take one out and it doesn't happen very often. A cannon is far better for roughly the same points.

mageith
06-07-2006, 14:48
But this can also work the other way.. place a Dragon behind enemy lines
You can't let this happen. I think that's the key. We play on a table and there isn't a 'behind your lines' unless you create one with deployment or movement.

In 5th, the Dragon created his own 'behind the lines' with Flying High.

mageith
06-07-2006, 15:07
I don't like Dragons because of one thing and one thing only: they become the focus of the game. Suddenly all the other elements in the opposing army are relegated to support status.

I know exactly how you feel. I don't like anything that doesn't let me play MY GAME and forces me to play YOUR GAME.

I think this is why I dislike Dragons, the Steam Tank, Gunlines and Heavy Magic and many hate my Bretonnians.

Most armies play similarly: Some Infantry, some cavalry and some shooting/magic support. To me this is the most fun.

I think I have to get over that. If it's fair (that is, I have a reasonable chance of beating it), then, well, I just have to play against it. If it's not fair (as apparently the powers that be think Heavy Magic is), then that's a different story.

The story on Dragons is that it's a Fool's Errand. It's actually a weak configuration once your opponent's get over their indignation and actually figure out how to fight them.

Actually after this thread I have several ideas and I can't wait until someone brings a Dragon against me.



If I manage to kill the dragon, I win the game. If I don't, I'll lose. Not every time, but most of the time. It turns the game into something more boring.
I'm not sure you have to kill it. Just be sure it doesn't run havoc over you. Isolate it.

Thranduil
06-07-2006, 15:58
Most armies play similarly: Some Infantry, some cavalry and some shooting/magic support. To me this is the most fun.

Yes, but most armies (except dwarves and skaven) can field some sort of big gribbly in some respect, whether it be a stand-alone monster or a mount:

BoC: Shaggoth, Chaos Giant
Brets: Hippogryph
DE: Dragon, Hydra, Manticore
Empire: Griffon
HE: Dragon
HoC: Chaos Dragon, Chaos Giant, Greater Daemons, Hellcannon?
Lizzies: Carnosaur, Stegadon, Slann?
OK: Slave Giant
OG: Wyvern, Giant
TK: Bone Giant
VC: Winged Nightmare, Zombie Dragon
WE: Dragon, Treeman

Not to mention armies that can also hire a DoW Giant...

Judging by the above list, I'd say that big monsters have the capacity to be just as much a part of a balanced army list as infantry, cavalry, shooting, and magic. Thing is, a large majority of generals choose not to field these big monsters because they're a point sink/cheese/just don't know how to use them effectively (oh how many times have I heard that a Shaggoth is useless?). Does this make them any less viable/cheesy? No, no it does not. Why? Because if more players were willing to include big nasties in their lists, then we'd see a lot more of them and they would therefore become part of a balanced army list. More players would take specific troops/characters/warmachines for the sole purpose of taking care of dragons and such, just like how current players take troops/characters for mage/warmachine hunting.

WillFightForFood
06-07-2006, 18:20
Yes, but most armies (except dwarves and skaven) can field some sort of big gribbly in some respect, whether it be a stand-alone monster or a mount:
If you toss in the Vermin Lord (although the rules are "official" for tournament purposes), then it's just Dwarfs.

Freak Ona Leash
06-07-2006, 18:33
If you toss in the Vermin Lord (although the rules are "official" for tournament purposes), then it's just Dwarfs.
...But our beards>then your big gribblies. So there. And Skaven also get DoW Giants now too, so they get another big monster. Not that it really maters. Most big monsters still die to shooting. So you concentrate your shooting on that and not the rest of the army. Who cares, the rest of his army is mostl ikely weak and puny because of the massive flying point sink you just chucked some cannon balls, a ballista bolt and maybe some Organ gun shot at.

Math Mathonwy
06-07-2006, 18:35
Yes, but most armies (except dwarves and skaven) can field some sort of big gribbly in some respect, whether it be a stand-alone monster or a mount:
I don't think that anyone has anything against non-flying big gribblies (the whole idea seems somehow absurd). With the possible exception of Treemen ;)

It's the ability to be and to get to anywhere that imbalances them. Or rather, makes the whole game function differently than normal in a way that many people don't find all that endearing.

EvilIncarnate
06-07-2006, 18:43
I have a question for everyone here.

Would it make any difference if the dragon was alone without a rider?

For example you could buy a dragon or what ever large flying creature for your army but it would take up to rare choices like back in 5th.

Reabe
06-07-2006, 21:31
BoC: Shaggoth, Chaos Giant
Brets: Hippogryph
DE: Dragon, Hydra, Manticore
Empire: Griffon
HE: Dragon
HoC: Chaos Dragon, Chaos Giant, Greater Daemons, Hellcannon?
Lizzies: Carnosaur, Stegadon, Slann?
OK: Slave Giant
OG: Wyvern, Giant
TK: Bone Giant
VC: Winged Nightmare, Zombie Dragon
WE: Dragon, Treeman

Not to mention armies that can also hire a DoW Giant....

Don't forget that Empire and Lizardmen can take Asarnil the Dragonlord. Althought, he takes a rare choice and two hero choices, but it can still be said that they get that gribby beastie.

mageith
07-07-2006, 06:42
I have a question for everyone here.

Would it make any difference if the dragon was alone without a rider?

For example you could buy a dragon or what ever large flying creature for your army but it would take up to rare choices like back in 5th.
Yeah it would make a difference.

"to" Under your suggestion you could have a two or three Dragon army at 2000 points?

Or if your "to" = two: If the Dragon took up two rare slots but was freer to roam, I'd be all right with that.

Except for the fluff. Why would a free Dragon fight for someone else?

As it is now some armies can have THREE terror causers, two in the rare slot and one under under the Lord General. I've played against a few of those renditions.

Scythe
07-07-2006, 10:29
Nah, terror gets worse the more terror causers you got. You can't force terror on every unit every turn anyway. Their use lessens the more you have of them. Besides, you can get more than 3 terror causers trough magic items etc.

mageith
07-07-2006, 14:35
Nah, terror gets worse the more terror causers you got.

Worse? You probably mean less cost effective?

Nah to what? It wouldn't make a difference if Dragons were rare and could be bought riderless?

Gorbad Ironclaw
07-07-2006, 16:20
Terror isn't really all that good to start with in my experience. At least for me it does practically nothing. I'd happily buy a cheaper, fear causing dragon if I could.

EvilIncarnate
07-07-2006, 16:49
Or if your "to" = two: If the Dragon took up two rare slots but was freer to roam, I'd be all right with that.

Correct I forgot the "w".

Viskrit
07-07-2006, 19:04
I agree with Gorbad, but only to a degree. I think Terror can be useful, but only against some armies.

Commissar von Toussaint
08-07-2006, 20:33
I have a question for everyone here.

Would it make any difference if the dragon was alone without a rider?



I think it would be a major improvement.

From a fluff perspective, I really dislike the idea of dragons serving as ersatz warhorses. Dragons are huge, powerful creatures. They should fight alone.

From a rules/balance perspective, they would certainly be less prone to abuse.

I'd actually like to see dragon stats improved, so that they were even nastier, (the old Emperor dragon stat line maybe) but then get rid of the rider.

Crazy Harborc
08-07-2006, 22:42
No rider is a good idea. IMHO, more should change. A die roll every turn with a chance of the dragon/monster just "going away", be it temporary or 'til some future battle.;) A chart with good AND bad results. Maybe for one/two turns, then back comes the dragon:evilgrin:

Scythe
09-07-2006, 11:43
Worse? You probably mean less cost effective?

Nah to what? It wouldn't make a difference if Dragons were rare and could be bought riderless?

Yeah, I meant less cost effective.

And of course it would make a difference if Dragons became rare without rider. I wouldn't like the idea tough. Like you said, I don't really like the idea of a free dragon just joining with an army.

Chiron
09-07-2006, 14:54
buying them with a very low level rider (say ws4, S3, T3, hvy armour and not a character) would be good, just someone who acted as a beastmaster rather than a character choice for the army

Commissar von Toussaint
10-07-2006, 01:36
No rider is a good idea. IMHO, more should change. A die roll every turn with a chance of the dragon/monster just "going away", be it temporary or 'til some future battle.;) A chart with good AND bad results. Maybe for one/two turns, then back comes the dragon:evilgrin:

I agree. I'm just finishing up my first draft of rules for dragons in Conqueror and dragons ARE the army list. That's the way I see them. You take a dragon, who spreads stomping ruin like Godzilla and basically terrorized the other army.

There are supporting units that back it up, but the dragon is the army.

If he gets broken in combat, he doesn't flee, he flies away. :evilgrin:

I'm looking forward to playtesting it.

shadowprince
10-07-2006, 07:57
Whats the fun in fantasy if there are no monsters.