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Killshot
25-06-2006, 16:28
I know it is bad mojo to start threads just to ask questions in the rumor forum, but I couldn't find the answer to my question. Doesn't mean it hasn't been answer, I just can't find it. :(

Anyways, will the next Empire book contain the rules for Kislievite troops? Might we see new choices?

||-MARKO-||
25-06-2006, 19:18
i aint no fantasy player (EDIT: not yet. when ive finished my space marines in 40k, im considering gobbos), but using my noggin' i say no.the kislev were, apparently, a one-off kinda thing, although they may receive an update , as , looking at the army book before me, it looks.... a bit..... just..... RAAAGGH! sorry. hate it when i cant find the right words. anyway, as far as i know, its not going to me 'Empire and Kislev'

pinball wizard
25-06-2006, 20:07
Ii doubt it, kislev had that supplement a while ago, bit of a splash release, i personally cant see GW investind 50 grand in a plastic sprue, and its probably not in their finacial interest to produce something in metal as hardly anyone would use them. They will probably get a brief update, possibly!!

Orcdom
26-06-2006, 01:54
in 4th and i think 5th editions the kislev were in the Empire book
Steve

EvC
26-06-2006, 02:37
In 4th edition I think Kislev's inclusion was limited to being the Kislev Horse Archers! Those were the days, skirmishing cavalry...

Orcdom
26-06-2006, 03:26
winged lancers and skirmishing calvery, and not to forget the ice queen, but IIRC thats all there was for them then as well.
Steve

Shimmergloom
26-06-2006, 03:55
The winged lancers should come back for the new empire book. The rest is un-needed.

Although and ice magic battle kislev wizard would be cool too.

NakedFisherman
26-06-2006, 04:28
Gryphon Legion are the Kislev troops most commonly seen in the Empire.

They are a Rare choice for current Empire armies.

ekxw
26-06-2006, 09:57
storm of chaos kilsev was near oblitetaed so i think we wont see them more than chaos dwarfs.

Nilhouse
26-06-2006, 13:24
I can't imagine they are totally gone. They will probably be updated in a White Dwarf in a couple of years. They don't really have alot of units or magic items in the first place, so I doubt they would need much updating anyway.

And anyway, the Yeti's just came out about a year ago, and they got the super ability - immunity to Ice Magic. Why would they give them a useless abitlity, since the Kislevite Queen is the only person on the Warhammer World with access to Ice Magic? :D

sigur
26-06-2006, 13:51
Just wait till you see the penguin allies of the upcoming fishmen.:p

It would be really sad if Kislevites would become even less important than they are now. They add lots of interesting diversity to the Empire and the Old World generally.

pinball wizard
26-06-2006, 16:50
no they dont, just snow and fuzzy bears

Reabe
26-06-2006, 17:47
no they dont, just snow and fuzzy bears

It's more than Ogre Kingdoms, anyway.

Kislev seems mainly to be the buffer between the Chaos Wastes and the Empire, so that the Empire can get ready for the regular "OMG! Super Chaos Army Is Gonna Kill You!!1 Kawai!" wars. Also, they're the representation of Poland and Russia in the Warhammer World.

Viskrit
26-06-2006, 18:21
Poor poor Kislevites. GW should give them a break. Let the next "OMG Super army" come from the southern pole. :D

fleshtuxedo
26-06-2006, 19:05
The simple answer is no, there are bigger, more shooty, ars bootin things to put in the new Empire book than their erstwhile allies the Kislevites

pinball wizard
26-06-2006, 19:10
hahahahaha, polish/russian kislevs, ahhh you're killing me

Ironhand
27-06-2006, 17:58
What's so funny? The Kislevites are indeed based on the Renaissence Poles, in particular their famous "Winged Hussar" cavalry.

ernyroamer
28-06-2006, 14:26
<----------------- Indeed. Maybe he was laughing 'cause the obvious had been stated?


They had a passing mention in 2nd edition.
Were merc/allied choices in 3rd with foot and mounted options. No winged lancers or horse archers though.
The rest you know.

Slayerthane
13-11-2006, 23:27
You may laugh at the idea of the kislevites representing Poles and Russians, but the armylist is actually based on the late medieval Polish/Lithuanian Empire under John Sobieski.

Sobieski's empire was the primary bulwark in Europe against Ottoman expansion, and at the time the Holy Roman Empire (historical equivalent to the empire) was too busy scratching their butts to care.

I think Kislevites will still be legal, probably just not as an allied contingent for the empire, which was your point I think. However, I have kislevites and will use them as DoW instead if I have to since this isn't much different from the current list I play with. For friendly games you could probably still use them as allies, maybe even convince a league to let you run them but that's as far as I see it going unfortunately.

Griefbringer
14-11-2006, 06:50
You may laugh at the idea of the kislevites representing Poles and Russians, but the armylist is actually based on the late medieval Polish/Lithuanian Empire under John Sobieski.


That would have been really late medieval, considering that Jan Sobieski ruled from 1674 to 1696.

Gorbad Ironclaw
14-11-2006, 06:52
in 4th and i think 5th editions the kislev were in the Empire book
Steve


4th and 5th ed used the same book...

Siam-Tiger
14-11-2006, 08:27
Since GW gave Kislev away with a 50% discount at the Spiel 06, i don't think that they have a big future.

The list from the chronicles book is all we got, and i guess it stays that way.

Voltaire
14-11-2006, 09:18
Yes poor Kislev, doomed to become another 'counts as' army.

Harry
14-11-2006, 09:39
Not in the Empire book but are included in the thinking for the Dogs of War revision.
Until then the contingent supplement remains 'legal' and 'official' and the RAW stand.

Griefbringer
14-11-2006, 09:47
Since GW gave Kislev away with a 50% discount at the Spiel 06, i don't think that they have a big future.


Also my local game store is currently pricing them at 50% discount, since they have been discontinued by GW. I have naturally picked several boxes - they are quite nice figures. :)

And as it is, the Kislev allied list remains legitimate for the time being, and the cavalry models also make for fine choices for DoW army.

Hobgoblyn
14-11-2006, 10:07
It doesn't seem to me that it would be difficult to put Kislev in the Empire's book. Hell, you could probably throw Brettonia in there too if you like.

The thing is that Games Workshop is just too lazy to do so. Actually, its just unprofitable to be terribly creative or support the game well. Instead of creating 2 dozen fun and varied books and updating one every month (seriously, with their staff there is no good reason they couldn't) and creating a vast model line to support it, it is actually far more profitable to have one single army where everyone buys large numbers of exactly the same models. And so they focus on 2-3 armies for Fantasy and 40K and when they make new models they are for those same factions trying to lure the same players of those popular armies to buying total upgrades. Also, by neglecting the marginalized players they can get them to buy into the popular armies and consolidate their model lines.

Now, of course they can only do that for so long so after a while they will develop a new army and try to get everyone to buy it up. If it works then they become a staple and they phase out 2-3 less popular armies. If it doesn't work, then they just let that one die out.

Of course, I don't want to say that there is no creativity left as Games Workshop. It is just that under a corporate model they are aimed to cost-cut as much as possible and producing tons of varried and interesting troops and spending time writing up rules for them is just not cost-effective.

Siam-Tiger
14-11-2006, 11:09
It doesn't seem to me that it would be difficult to put Kislev in the Empire's book. Hell, you could probably throw Brettonia in there too if you like.

The thing is that Games Workshop is just too lazy to do so. Actually, its just unprofitable to be terribly creative or support the game well. Instead of creating 2 dozen fun and varied books and updating one every month (seriously, with their staff there is no good reason they couldn't) and creating a vast model line to support it, it is actually far more profitable to have one single army where everyone buys large numbers of exactly the same models. And so they focus on 2-3 armies for Fantasy and 40K and when they make new models they are for those same factions trying to lure the same players of those popular armies to buying total upgrades. Also, by neglecting the marginalized players they can get them to buy into the popular armies and consolidate their model lines.

Now, of course they can only do that for so long so after a while they will develop a new army and try to get everyone to buy it up. If it works then they become a staple and they phase out 2-3 less popular armies. If it doesn't work, then they just let that one die out.

Of course, I don't want to say that there is no creativity left as Games Workshop. It is just that under a corporate model they are aimed to cost-cut as much as possible and producing tons of varried and interesting troops and spending time writing up rules for them is just not cost-effective.


Problem is the following, its the same with cars.
Every 7-8 Years a car is redone, in the half time it gets a make-over.
GW re-does their main lines about the same cyclus and in halftime you get kicked with a more or less usefull errata.
So what do you do with the 7-8 Years? You have about a dozen armies, so take 3-4 month per army, add a few special events like campaigns etc.
Problem about this, the armies that are done in the middle are more like to be overpowered (they have to top the existing armies) and the last few armies are quite helples for getting finished between the editions and not beeing good balanced (beeing testet for old and new rules doesn't help for a good balance -> take a look at the first 2nd Edi Necrons).

They COULD give us a new army every month, but the cycle would be to narrow to squeeze the money of the customer. I think, hey if you spend 300 bucks on a army, you are more likely to do it once a year for a cool army than 2-3 times per year. Other Problem, who keeps pushing new ideas on such a long time of 7 years to keep the people entertained?
By that way it is a long and slow process to ensure the time schedule - but it works and they won't change. It would cost to much and make way to much work for them.

Pokpoko
14-11-2006, 11:19
and probably we won't see any armylist in the WD either, sine the stupid "Army list=army book" rule after the SoC:/
why do i even bother? i mean, it's obvious that they'd chop the most characterful human kingdom in the game. after all, develiping it into a fully functional army would be too hard,right?

Harry
14-11-2006, 11:59
It doesn't seem to me that it would be difficult to put Kislev in the Empire's book. Hell, you could probably throw Brettonia in there too if you like.

The thing is that Games Workshop is just too lazy to do so. Actually, its just unprofitable to be terribly creative or support the game well. Instead of creating 2 dozen fun and varied books and updating one every month (seriously, with their staff there is no good reason they couldn't) and creating a vast model line to support it, it is actually far more profitable to have one single army where everyone buys large numbers of exactly the same models. And so they focus on 2-3 armies for Fantasy and 40K and when they make new models they are for those same factions trying to lure the same players of those popular armies to buying total upgrades. Also, by neglecting the marginalized players they can get them to buy into the popular armies and consolidate their model lines.

Now, of course they can only do that for so long so after a while they will develop a new army and try to get everyone to buy it up. If it works then they become a staple and they phase out 2-3 less popular armies. If it doesn't work, then they just let that one die out.

Of course, I don't want to say that there is no creativity left as Games Workshop. It is just that under a corporate model they are aimed to cost-cut as much as possible and producing tons of varried and interesting troops and spending time writing up rules for them is just not cost-effective.

Ehhhh Yes....or they just wanted the Empire book to be about the Empire.

Festus
14-11-2006, 14:06
Hi

That would have been really late medieval, considering that Jan Sobieski ruled from 1674 to 1696.
Nope, definitely Renaissance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance

According to common knowledge, the Middle Ages end with either:

Luther's Theses, starting the Schism of the Cristian Churches,
Printing with movable letters,
Columbus' discovery of the New World, or - most early -
Dante's epochal works in Italy.

And yes, Kislev is very much modelled on Russia and Poland of this period - when Poland was the largest national state in Europe!

Festus

samw
14-11-2006, 14:48
Hi

Nope, definitely Renaissance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance

According to common knowledge, the Middle Ages end with either:

Luther's Theses, starting the Schism of the Cristian Churches,
Printing with movable letters,
Columbus' discovery of the New World, or - most early -
Dante's epochal works in Italy.

And yes, Kislev is very much modelled on Russia and Poland of this period - when Poland was the largest national state in Europe!

Festus

In Britain it's 1485 and the Battle of Bosworth ending the Wars of the Roses.

I too don't get the conspiracy theories around this discontinuation. Fold them into the DOW book, it's not like Empire are starved for variety as it is. Four human armies (counting chaos mortals) is enough really.

Axel
14-11-2006, 20:52
Sobieski's empire was the primary bulwark in Europe against Ottoman expansion, and at the time the Holy Roman Empire (historical equivalent to the empire) was too busy scratching their butts to care.

Ouch.

There were eight Austrian Turkish wars, the first around the 1530ies. The first siege of vienna was repulsed by he epitome of the real world Landsknechts army that the Fantasy Imperium is modeled on. In the mediterran sea, there were eight Venetian Turkish wars. In the east, there were ten Russian Turkish wars. There was only one Turkish Polish war (admittedly under Sobiesky).
At the second invasion in the late 17th century (the great Turkish war, numbered in each of the three series) it was unclear wether Vienna or Cracow would be the target of the Turkish conquest. Poland and Austria made a pact of mutual assistance, though Sobiesky insisted that he would take command of the combined army and credit for the success - even though he only put one third of the army in the field.

Sobiesky only saw the last storm of the Ottoman expansion. Many other waves had been stemmed, in Central Europe mainly by the Hapsburg Austrians and the manyfold people on the Balkan, with Hungary bearing the main brunt. While Poland played its part here, it is not only wrong but unfair to state that the Holy Roman Empire was just sitting around. Remember that most Turkish expansions were neatly timed (not coincidently) with French conquests into Imperial territory.

Regarding the Empire book...
I want the Kislevites as part of the book, not as some DOW for hire (even when they are a rare choice.
I also want a simple dwarf unit and, more important, halflings (including the pepper hotpot) as unit choices. I won`t get them, but they gave flavour to the Empire without adding an unfair advantage. I would trade in Engineers for Halflings any day.

Kamarathin
14-11-2006, 23:49
The simple answer is no, there are bigger, more shooty, ars bootin things to put in the new Empire book than their erstwhile allies the Kislevites
Like Pidgeon Bombs :wtf:

Bloodknight
15-11-2006, 00:01
And still no halflings, although the Halfling boss is in effect an Elector count...

Griefbringer
15-11-2006, 08:04
And yes, Kislev is very much modelled on Russia and Poland of this period - when Poland was the largest national state in Europe!


The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was a huge state, but it was not a national state (indeed, national states were rare sights at the time), but contained people from various nations: Poles, Lithuanians, Cossacks etc.

Anyway, another vote for the halflings (though I could live without the hot-pot catapult - even though it has to qualify as one of the most humoristic war-machines ever), any proper Empire army should have a detachment of halflings, at least manning the field bakery in the baggage train!

Though I protest to the Elder of the Moot being called "in effect Elector Count" - as it is, he is a real elector, and for better reason than most of the elector counts (who just happened to inherit the title and province from their fathers).

Siam-Tiger
16-11-2006, 15:19
Hmm, a halfling themed empire army ... sounds expensive but would be a great looking thing.

All the Greatcannons and Mortars replaced by Hot Pots, Halfling Ponyriders as Knights, "Field Bakery"-Baggage Train as steam tanks, etc.

A halfling engineer would look quite cool with googles and all that stuff ^^