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Brother Haephestus
07-11-2014, 13:58
Need some rules/tactical help here folks:

I am seeing a ton of lists where people are areligiously putting Brace of Pistols on either the unit champion or a character that is put into a unit of Quarrellers/Thunderers. One of them said something about being able to fire at short range when declaring Stand and Shoot reactions, which makes no sense because Stand and Shoot is determined by whether or not you are within the charging unit's M characteristic, not Short Range (is that an artifact carried forward from an earlier edition?) So, what am I missing? Is there some rule or quirk that wants me to have a brace of pistols in this instance over a crossbow/dwarf handgun?

Your wisdom is greatly appreciated.

theJ
07-11-2014, 14:25
Well, I'm told dual wielding pistols is supposed to be "cool", not to mention actually having an option for your champion for once is sweet enough on its own... do you need more than that?

Of course you do... There's two rulebitz they're refering to;
First, All weapons count as being at short range while doing stand and shoots - regardless of how far away the enemy is, thus removing the one great weakness of pistol-type weapons(terrible range), making them essentially 2-shot guns. Which in this case you get for free. Nice.
Secondly, pistols have the "Quick to Fire" special rule, which overrides the usual rules and lets them stand and shoot regardless of how close the enemy is.
Their downside is that every turn the enemy does NOT charge you, you do not end up in stand-and-shoots, and thus have to contend with the pistols having bugger-all range after all, in addition to the -1 to hit for multi-shot.

So... the tactical choice basically comes down to "do I expect this unit be get charged anytime soon or not?". If yes, the pistols are a nice addition, if no, stay with the rifle.

Or just go for what looks nicest. It's not like a single gun makes a massive difference either way...

Lorcryst
07-11-2014, 14:34
It is buried at the very end of the last paragraph of the Stand and Shoot rules in the small rulebook, page 17 :


A Stand and Shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range - the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon.

The words I bolded and underlined are the key here.

Mostly it's only useful for Dwarfs that can take pistols on almost every character and Thunderers champions, and the shots will be resolved at a range of 12 inches, the maximum range of the pistols, but just inside of the short range of the Handguns.

Keep in mind that pistol, even dwarf ones, don't have the "Dwarf Crafted" rule of the Handguns and Crossbows, so those shots will have the -1 to hit penalty of the normal S&S rules, while the Handguns/Crossbows won't have it, so you'll have to roll the Champion/Character shots separately.

Lorcryst
07-11-2014, 14:42
Sorry mate, but this bit is not true :

First, All weapons count as being at short range while doing stand and shoots - regardless of how far away the enemy is, thus removing the one great weakness of pistol-type weapons(terrible range), making them essentially 2-shot guns. Which in this case you get for free.

Quoting page 17, again, third paragraph of the Stand and Shoot rules :


If a Stand and Shoot reaction is declared, the unit makes a normal, although out of sequence, shooting attack against the charging unit (see the Shooting Phase on page 38 for more details on shooting attacks).

Again, see the bolded and underlined words.

Combined with the rules for shooting and the last paragraph, Stand and Shoot charge reactions do indeed have to abide by the standard shooting rules, including range, modifiers and the "we can't all shoot" bit ... another benefit of having a Thunderer Champion in an unit, because that also means that the second rank (if deployed on two ranks) will be able to shoot if the enemy starts its charge outside of the normal shooting range of the Thunderers (quite rare with a range of 24 inches, but still possible with flyers and other fast moving things).

theunwantedbeing
07-11-2014, 14:45
Page 17 of the rulebook.
Under Stand and Shoot.

1. If the enemy starts in range, you shoot as normal.
2. If the enemy starts out of range, everyone waits until they're in short range of the shortest range weapon before firing.

So with the second points you have a scenario that plays out as follows.
1. Enemy declares a charge, you stand and shoot
2. Enemy is more than 12" away(range of the pistol)
3. Everyone in the unit waits untill the pistol is in close range before firing.
4. This means the pistol fires at long range, the handguns all fire at close range (as the enemy is treated as being 12" away).

The benefit being not suffering a long range modifier due to the champion having pistols.
Also the pistols get to fire even if the enemy is within their move rate, which is something at least.

Note that the rules are a little fuzzy and there is no FAQ saying the above is how it always works or that you always get to do this but this is what everyone seems to do.

theJ
07-11-2014, 15:06
hm... seems I'll have to reread the shooting rules... that stuff ain't quite what I remembered... thanks for pointing out my errors, guys.
I will not thank you for forcing me to reread the rules, however. That was a dick move, and you know it! :p

EDIT: Rules checked aaaand... you are correct. Equipping pistols will ensure the Dwarfs will not fire until the chargers are in short range.
A strange ruling it is... you'd think if the Dwarfs can handle waiting until the enemy is within range of the pistol guy, they could handle waiting even when he isn't there... oh, well.
A bit sad, really. I kinda prefered my ruling, where the pistols were a tactical choice(even if a largely inconsequential one), rather than a flat free upgrade..

Brother Haephestus
07-11-2014, 18:28
Much love! I now understand the mentality of the tactic and can see why everyone is so frothy about it. I tend to play quarrelers, and the 15" short range tends to be ~the max charge range and this wasn't making sense to me.

russellmoo
08-11-2014, 05:47
Unwantedbeing has it correct, and yes it is mostly useful for Thunderers, and you also see it with Master engineers (just cause it gives you 2 S&S shots if he is charged, or 2 shots to use to help clear chaff, or warmachine hunters), and Irondrake champions tend to take a brace because the difference between 12 and 18 is no where near as large as 12 versus 24, plus 10 points for an additional Str 5 shot is a good deal.

With quarellers and rangers I tend to leave the champion at home.

daftpunkevo
08-11-2014, 10:27
Now that the OP questions have been answer, i think i can ask my own question instead on spamming another dwarf question thread...

Is Conga Line Slayer still a thing ? it was with the last book but nobody seems to use it anymore
60 Pts for 5 Unbreakable redbeard seems good, even without armor.

Brother Haephestus
08-11-2014, 14:06
The OP himself is a Garagehammer player, so some of the loophole abuses such as this never come up in game. I wouldn't have a hard and fast answer and would have to defer to the more experienced here.

Personal opinion, however, is that this goes against the spirit of the game. So much of the games rules wrap around the principle of maximizing contact and combatants, which this is clearly an attempt to not do.

I don't want to seem too harsh and full of hate, but using said tactic with me would result in me deliberately sacrificing my win chances just so I could ensure that you had the absolute worst gaming experience ever.

I would consider it only fair.

Lorcryst
08-11-2014, 16:10
The infamous Dwarf Slayer conga line is still possible ... could even be a bit better with their Death Blow ... but the most important question is : do you want to keep your friends ?

N00B
10-11-2014, 00:47
I didn't realise 1 wide units were disliked. I will admit that with things like trolls and dragon ogres I regularly end up with 1 x 2 formation

Lorcryst
10-11-2014, 06:05
Yup, but with Trolls and Dragon Ogre, it's a whole different kettle of fish ... they are not unbreakable, you actually lose a couple of Attacks (because support attack are capped at 3 for Monstrous Infantry) and a Stomp ...

Basically, Trolls and Dragon Ogres are better when you have more frontage ... not so with the Slayers, but keep in mind that the 60-points Slayer roadblock can be entirely killed by something with enough attacks (WoC with MoK and xtra HW can mince them), BUT if you upgrade those Slayers to Champions, it becomes really abusive ... Challenge ~> you'll only kill one ~> Unbreakable = 5 turns blocked ...

Maetco
10-11-2014, 06:28
I haven't used the 1 wide Slayer unit in this edition anymore and it has nothing to do with being nice to my opponent. Taking 5 models costs 60 points and they can hold most charges for one round. The problem is the word "most" and the fact that they are very easy to shoot down with spells and ranged units (or at least shoot enought down so they can't last even one round of CC). Taking unit champions makes them valid in CC but they become ridigulously pricy. At 25 points each they are the dream come true for any ranged unit and magic missile caster. If I wanted to be a dick, I'd just take 1 wide Stubborn Ironbreaker unit. Costs barely more and are a lot tougher to kill.

PS. I haven't actually used an 1 wide Ironbreaker unit because I'm not a dick, I hope.