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View Full Version : Stupid multiwound lecture got me thinking.



dementian
16-11-2014, 00:06
I call it a lecture not a discussion because as similar to some of my classroom experiences where I tell the students the correct answer and they try to argue back for a different answer.

But basically my question is does a Cannonball traveling through a unit of Monstrous Infantry/Beasts/Cav need to deal the total wound characteristics of a model in order to pass to the next rank or is it possible under some situations for the cannonball to bounce into the next rank if it has not dealt the correct amount of wounds as per the wound characteristic (e.g., does a cannon need to deal exactly 3 wounds to an ogre to go to the next rank or can floating wounds on the unit reduce that number?)

For those interested the relevant wording from the BRB is:

P. 113 2nd bullet under Who's Been Hit?
"If the cannonball bounces into a monstrous infantry/beast/cavalry or monster, that model suffers a hit. However, if the monster or monstrous infantry/beast/cavalry model is not slain, the sheer bulk of the creature robs the cannonball of all momentum and the shot travels no further."

Situation:

Unit of 9 Ogre Bulls in 3x3 formation with 1 floating wound is hit straight through by a cannon. In order to hit the models in the second rank. The cannonball will for sure be stopped as it fails to kill an ogre and the unit would be at 2 floating wounds now. If I roll a 3+ for the d6 wounds then an ogre is straight out killed and I know that the cannonball will pass to the next rank. If however I roll a 2 for the d6 wounds does the cannonball go to the next rank as the 2 wounds inflicted + the one floating wound = 3 wounds which is enough to remove one model.

I can't tell if I just haven't seen this come up yet in 3 years of playing or if it is just really late at night and I can't figure it out right now.

Ok have at it!

Stymie Jackson
16-11-2014, 04:11
The cannonball stops as soon as it fails to kill a monstrous enemy outright. In this case less than 3 wounds. Floating wounds don't matter until after total wounds done from this one attack is resolved.

The cannonball doesn't magically start moving again once models get removed.

3eland
16-11-2014, 04:23
Unless you are a Skaven Cannon.

dementian
16-11-2014, 08:23
The cannonball stops as soon as it fails to kill a monstrous enemy outright. In this case less than 3 wounds. Floating wounds don't matter until after total wounds done from this one attack is resolved.

The cannonball doesn't magically start moving again once models get removed.

Thanks this is what I figured it just the conversation had me thinking to the other eventuality. This would definitely be one of the cases that Memnos and Dazqpr would argue.

Dazqpr
16-11-2014, 09:36
I have always counted that if it is slain it goes throught. So yes, the wounds already in a unit help it go through. As in the other thread. If you roll a 3 the other wounds stay on the unit. If you roll 2 on the next rank but it had 2 wounds it would go through but a wound would be wasted, yet it could still hit the next rank. But thats just my take on it apparantly.

theunwantedbeing
16-11-2014, 11:21
If however I roll a 2 for the d6 wounds does the cannonball go to the next rank as the 2 wounds inflicted + the one floating wound = 3 wounds which is enough to remove one model.

A model is slain, the cannon bounce doesn't stop and the next rank is hit.

The same applies to bolt thrower type hits as well (and any other rank penetrating shots that stop if they fail to kill something).

Lord Dan
16-11-2014, 14:05
Wait, wait, wait...

So if a unit of bulls has one wound on it, and a cannonball runs through the unit, and the first ogre hit only takes two wounds, then the cannonball stops and an ogre is subsequently removed?

Dazqpr
16-11-2014, 14:15
Nope. Dead ogre. Carry on rolling.

Stymie Jackson
16-11-2014, 14:16
Exactly Lord Dan. THE CANNONBALL STOPS.

Anything else is suggesting we assign wounds to specific rank-n-file models. How do you know which Ogre is getting hit (as long as it's not a champion or character)? Why does the Ogre killed have to be the wounded Ogre? How can that even be if wounds are assigned to the unit?

In other words, if the cannonball keeps bouncing after doing only two wounds, then pretty much everything Memnos/Daz said is right and everyone needs to make an apology. Because you're suggesting you assign hits and wounds to specific Rank and File models. And at that point you start running into issues like I described in your poll thread (the two ogres one flame cannon) and all the other issues with this. So...may as well treat every single ogre like a character for wound distribution purposes, and roll every die one at a time. Hello 15 hour Warhammer games that always end in arguments.

Seriously, how in the hell can you claim the cannon strikes the wounded ogre and you continue resolving hits? You resolve hits, you resolve wounds. Then you remove models. Once you remove models, you don't get back to the same attack again. What, is everyone using warpstone now?

What happens if there are two floating wounds on the unit? And you do two wounds with a cannon ball? Do you 'borrow' one of the two floating wounds for a kill, and the ball keeps bouncing with one 'excess' wound to be used at any time, like store credit? If you're Daz/Memnos, the logical conclusion is the extra wound floating wound is now lost. It has to be, because of the 2+2 discussion.

How does THAT make sense? You lose wounds by doing more wounds?

Welcome to what happens when you over-think the rules. Why on earth do people want to make Warhammer more complicated than it is? It takes 3 wounds to 'slay' an Rank-n-file ogre, unless it is a solo wounded Ogre.

EDIT: I'm saying this as primarily a Dwarf player. Keep it Simple, stupid.

Micalovits
16-11-2014, 16:46
Fourtunatly, the rules are relatively clear on this part to...
Under the section for multiwound models, p45: Any leftover wounds that were not enough to remove a model are carried over and will be added to subsequent attacks.
So, say the unit of ogres is hit by a cannon and has allready taken a wound.
1: The cannon rolls to wound the first ogre, if it fails the cannon ball stops
2: The cannon rolls for number of wounds, being able to cause a max of 3 on the d6
3: The cannon adds the previous wounds to the amount of woudns it rolled before, as said just above.
4: If the amount of wounds is more then 3, an ogre dies, extra wounds(in this case max 1) gets added to the unit
5: Repeat for the next ogre

Stymie Jackson
16-11-2014, 18:38
Fourtunatly, the rules are relatively clear on this part to...
Under the section for multiwound models, p45: Any leftover wounds that were not enough to remove a model are carried over and will be added to subsequent attacks.

That is correct, but you're forgetting something. There's a section called Multi-wound models and multi-wound weapons. We are talking about Multi-wound models (Ogres) and multi-wound weapons (cannons). We should therefore take those rules into consideration...ya think? I'm not going to quote the whole section here...to paraphrase, you first determine how many wounds are caused on each model in the unit (max 3 each in this case), then you add up all the wounds, add in any leftover wounds from previous attacks, and THEN remove models. You might have leftover wounds, after removing models, for the next 'subsequent' attack.

There's are reason for doing it in this EXACT manner. It's why the 2+2+2=4 argument is wrong. Because if you do not do it this way, then you have to treat each and every model hit as a separate attack. If you roll all the multiwound dice at once, the order in which you apply them changes the results of the combat. Change the order you apply the dice, change the total wounds done.

So you have to roll the multiwound dice separately, sequentially, one at a time, if you are doing it this way. So the 'subsequent' attack in this case is the first ogre wounded. So even if the cannon does 6 wounds, you ADD your leftover wounds to this, and only end up killing a single ogre. How is that correct? Why can one reserve using these leftover wounds until they fail to do enough wounds? How can this be justified? Read your own step 3, the extra wounds are always used on the first ogre who fails all his saves and is wounded.

This is why you just do what it says in "Multiwound models and multi-wound attacks" instead. It's much easier and simpler, and the results are ALWAYS the same because order of operation is moot. And you do it all at once, so it's way faster.

TLDR: You add in leftover wounds once the attack is complete, before removing models. That's why the cannonball stops unless it's a magical skaven cannonball, because that has it's own frikkin' rules.

Micalovits
16-11-2014, 20:28
The thing with the cannon ball though, is that after killing a ogre you then have to roll to wound again. Wouldn't this make it a seperate attack since you basicly "hit" one ogre at a time?
As for the step 3, you add the extra wounds ontop of the multiple wounds caused, thus being able to go above the 3 wound of the ogre. Any wounds above what was on the ogre, is then added back to the unit for the next model the cannon ball hit. A roll of a 5 on the d6 for multiple wounds would still only cause 3 wounds.

forseer of fates
16-11-2014, 20:41
This multi wounded craziness has gotten out of hand.

dementian
16-11-2014, 22:25
This multi wounded craziness has gotten out of hand.

Oooops my bad...

shakedown47
22-11-2014, 15:29
The thing with the cannon ball though, is that after killing a ogre you then have to roll to wound again. Wouldn't this make it a seperate attack since you basicly "hit" one ogre at a time?
As for the step 3, you add the extra wounds ontop of the multiple wounds caused, thus being able to go above the 3 wound of the ogre. Any wounds above what was on the ogre, is then added back to the unit for the next model the cannon ball hit. A roll of a 5 on the d6 for multiple wounds would still only cause 3 wounds.

This guy gets it. Stymie Jackson gets it too, except in the case of cannonballs.

It works like this. Say you've got a file of 3 bulls, all of whose bases are crossed by the line of a bouncing cannonball, and the unit has 2 wounds assigned to it. You hit the first ogre in the file, wound him, and roll a 5 on the D6 multiwound roll. You remove that ogre, then successfully roll to wound the one behind him. You roll a 2 on the D6 multiwound roll, then apply one of the previous 2 unsaved wounds the unit had before being shot by a cannonball, and remove the ogre. At this point the unit has a single unsaved wound allocated to it, and rinse and repeat for the last ogre whose base has been crossed by the line of a bouncing cannonball (notice I didn't say hit by a bouncing cannonball, because he wasn't hit by it UNTIL the ogre in front of him died.)

A file of infantry is hit by a bouncing cannonball concurrently, a file of monstrous infantry is hit by a bouncing cannonball sequentially. It's a weird quirk of the rules, but it's not hard to work out. Stymie Jackson's method is absolutely correct when working out multiple multi-wound hits against a multi-wound unit AT THE SAME TIME, which isn't how cannonball hits work against monstrous units.