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View Full Version : Pros and Cons of New Nid Codex



blitz589
13-06-2005, 21:03
Some people say they think nids got nerfed, and some say they got better, so
Pros________Cons
Living ammo____ No more Mutants
TL spinefist_____HT Price
Barbed Strangler__ Fex price
New Upgrades ____Lictors lost wound
Brood lord ________Gargoyles price
FOF Stealers_______Biovore sucks now
Raveners price
Better pyshic powers
Easier to use
Im sure I missed stuff, but what do you think.

philbrad2
13-06-2005, 21:27
Some people say they think nids got nerfed, and some say they got better, so
Pros________Cons

Living ammo____ No more Mutants

I can live with that. An HT with TL Devourers is 6 shots, S4 with reroll to hit and wound. I can live with that... As for mutants the amount of biomorphs on hand make 'mutating' unnecessary.

TW spinefist_____HT Price

Just priced up my HT for a 2500pt game against Eldar I'm playing once my Nids are done - 190pts ....ohhh but he's nasty... Spinefists... hmmm rarely use them TBH on Gaunts I dont think they are worth it, S3? I'd prefer to have them on a Warrior or bigger.

Barbed Strangler__ Fex price

Swings & roundabouts. Lower priced weaponry for increased priced choices. Hmmm...

New Upgrades ____Lictors lost wound

The Lictors deepstriking ability is far more useful than the old hidden setup and the ability to assault after deep striking is worth the loss of a wound IMHO.

Brood lord ________Gargoyles price

Broodlord is welcomed IMHO. About time the Nids had another HQ choice. Gargoyle price.. well the actual cost of the models has always been prohibitive in gamers fiedling massed flying Nid armies. If plastic Gargoyles were forthcoming with thos edition I'd have expected their cost to have remained as previous.

FOF Stealers_______Biovore sucks now

Personally I liked my infiltrating Stealers, but I can live with FOF. Biovore sucking. OK they aren't brilliant but the ability to field spore mine broods as a FA choice is more useful IMHO. Can't wait to let a few of these loose behind packed lines if IG/Orks. :)

Raveners price

See my answer on the Barbie vs Fex


Im sure I missed stuff, but what do you think.

I'm happy with Nid codex- very much in fact. A lot easier to use than the 3rd ed 'dex.

:chrome:

Str10_hurts
13-06-2005, 22:02
The new nid codex has got 95% of the time better than the old one.

2 big things that some people think has gotten worse is no more uber mutable genuses and biovores got toned down so are no longer (as should be) a priority choise.

Angelus Mortis
13-06-2005, 22:15
Whats a TW Spinefist?

blitz589
13-06-2005, 22:16
Whats a TL Spinefist?
Spinfist are now Twin Linked. <good gaunt upgrade)

Angelus Mortis
13-06-2005, 22:23
Spinfist are now Twin Linked. <good gaunt upgrade)I have the codex, but I dont understand what the TW is for. Twin-linked would be TL not TW.

Kahadras
13-06-2005, 22:33
As far as I can see Tyranids got a good boost from the new codex. Second turn charges are the way that Tyranids can pin down a lot of enemy shooting before they get a chance to do any real damage. DSing Lictors, infilrating Broodlords and winged Hive Tyrants give a player a good chance of getting into hth before much damage is done to his army. The downsides are quite small in comparison to what has been added to the list (namly much more flexibility and choice)

Kahadras

the spook
14-06-2005, 02:04
Is there still confusion over the Biovore issue? A full brood seems bloody nasty to me, nine small acid blast templates is going melt a lot of marines or vehicles.

blitz589
14-06-2005, 02:27
Is there still confusion over the Biovore issue? A full brood seems bloody nasty to me, nine small acid blast templates is going melt a lot of marines or vehicles. The small blast is only part of the problem, biovores now fire as a barrage, so you shoot one cluster, scatter, then scatter other one from where that scatted to. youd be lucky to get more then one cluster to kill somthing.

Eversor
14-06-2005, 02:37
Is there still confusion over the Biovore issue? A full brood seems bloody nasty to me, nine small acid blast templates is going melt a lot of marines or vehicles.
The codex is very clear on that you get one mine per 'vore in the brood. Not as many mines per 'vore as there are 'vores in the brood. So you seem to be the only one that is confused ;)

gLOBS
14-06-2005, 04:29
I love the new codex overall but I want to take a baseball bat to the head of whoever came up with the "improved" biovore rules. Man making tyranid biovores fire like conventional artillery just ruins the feel of em.

Again though a very much improved codex with real army variations. Will be very glad to see the different types that will be fielded.

Ouroboros
14-06-2005, 07:57
In terms of gaming effectivness I think it took a hit mainly due to the loss of all those cheapie mutant rending claws and hive nodes but it's more balenced now as a whole and more interesting armies should be seen on the field.

The mutable genus rules were an interesting experiment that unsurpisingly met their death at the hands of number crunching powergamers to whom their was only ever really one choice configuration in any given category.

I don't see why it was required to limit biovores to the small template AND limit them to a 0-1 choice. GW swings the pendulum too far again turning vores from a useful unit with some potetial for abuse in certain hands into fancy 40+ point mortars, and we all know how much people love mortars.

The Lictor was easy enough to kill before powerfists were untargetable. It's basically just 80 point improved coms now. It's got some nice rules but I get the feeling it's going to suffer from Mandrake disease, IE it gets in combat wonderfully then it fails to kill anything before it dies, dies, dies, spectacularly in probably a single turn. I'll have to give this one a shot though, it might still have some value as a tank killer if you're feeling lucky with rending claws. Hunting tanks preferentially over infantry though is about as fluffy for a Lictor as it is for Khorne Berzerkers to have diplomacy rules. I also get a laugh at how the broodlord's "inhuman stength" of 5 entitles him to ignore armour saves where as the Lictors strength of 6 does not.

The lack of hive nodes is a welcome change. It's nice that Nid players are actualyl going to have to worry about keeping their big bugs safe again. The hive node was second only to "shoot the big ones" as the worst thing to ever happen to the Tyranid army over the years.

zealousheretic
14-06-2005, 08:22
Near as I can tell, the scary thing about the Lictor is not the creature itself, it's what happens when it gets into combat alongside something else.

It's not supposed to take a squad on single-handed (well, mine has a stellar track record taking on Tau units single-handed so far, but that doesn't count). It's supposed to hit combat alongside gaunt broods, and make those gaunt broods better, especially against marines.

Hitting marines on 3's nicely makes up for needing 5's to wound, and greatly increases the damage the brood can do.

I've taken a Lictor in every game under the new 'dex, and I've been pleased with the results every time.

Yorkiebar
14-06-2005, 08:50
As long as the stats improve to match it I prefer a high points cost for hive tyrants and carnifexes. It means that you have to spend less cash to get a decent sized army.

Lion El Jason
14-06-2005, 09:12
The book IS much better, I would take any part of it over the 3rd ed book (Except flying gaunts as gargoyles are totally useless now;))

BUT its also obvious that the power level of the army has gone down, not by much but everything got worse or more expensive. Even so the codex works better and I'd rather try to make an army from this one than the old one!

Angelus Mortis
14-06-2005, 11:38
Two things that stand out to me.

1. No Mycetic Spore attack. (AKA-Seeding Swarm, "They came from the skies!")

2. No scenarios like every other codex.

Angelus Mortis
15-06-2005, 01:30
Upon further reading one other thing started to bug me. Way too many choices are 0-1. They really didnt need to 0-1 Biovores, Lictors or Zoanthopes. Going to make for a lot of similar lists IMO.

Myst
15-06-2005, 07:55
Looking pretty good to me. Good to see biovores being toned down a little. They tended to be a little bit insane agaisnt some armies at times.

Eversor
15-06-2005, 09:46
1. No Mycetic Spore attack. (AKA-Seeding Swarm, "They came from the skies!")
:skull: Which wasn't included in the older codex either ;) It was a WD list, and good riddance to it, IMHO. Air-dropping a force in the scale of combat that 40k represents is pretty silly. Leave that for epic. (that goes for Marines as well...)

hivefleetcarrion
15-06-2005, 10:00
i think the new book rocks.

granted i didnt play 2nd ed, only starting in 3rd, but alot of the chages i feel are for the better.

no more 2*winged ht deepstriking...hell no more winged ht deepstriking at all but winged can now go into cover

warp field having a use and giving a 6+ inv

gargolyes getting a price increase(they were way to cheap in the last installment)

i might even have a game where i dont take the mandotory 3 vores. spore mines as fast attack rock now( acid mine death on dev squad anyone?) though loss of plim barrage might suck

shooting weapons have all gotten much better(even vc which should be able to pen) though weapons max str is a bummer.

genestealers getting a 4+ save and foc is good, i expect to use them again(khorne armies will feel the pain)

and stupid hive node are removed, so tactics will need to be used ie keep synapse stuff alive

and you dont even have to mention the fluff and size of the book, compared to the last codex this book buries it as far as im concerned

Insane Psychopath
15-06-2005, 10:23
I think the codex is all right. But where in hell dose it say they limit you can spend on say a Carnifex. I know if he over 100 or somthing he elist but there no limit on how much can be spent?????

I just find it hard to use for the limit part. Also note this is my first Nuds codex, I only bought it to do recon for the UK GT due to there bound to be a few there.

I just think it cool to see a few new stuff here & there & the Carnifex model cool

Kargos Bloodspit
15-06-2005, 10:26
I think the codex is all right. But where in hell dose it say they limit you can spend on say a Carnifex. I know if he over 100 or somthing he elist but there no limit on how much can be spent?????

I just find it hard to use for the limit part. Also note this is my first Nuds codex, I only bought it to do recon for the UK GT due to there bound to be a few there.

I just think it cool to see a few new stuff here & there & the Carnifex model cool

theres a limit on how much you can spend on an elite choice, that is 114pts, and the army must be 1500pts or higher in total.

heavy support choice carnifex's have no limit.

Angelus Mortis
15-06-2005, 12:33
:skull: Which wasn't included in the older codex either ;) It was a WD list, and good riddance to it, IMHO. Air-dropping a force in the scale of combat that 40k represents is pretty silly. Leave that for epic. (that goes for Marines as well...)Company level air drop is pretty much standard pratice in real world so I don't know what your getting at, unless you play 500pt games. If you play 1.5k+ its not very silly at all and there are not many that do it as a whole. Fluffy for SM and 'Nids and I can even buy it for a mostly CSM list. Then you have Drop Troops which fit the bill exactly. It's not unbalancing at all, more of a preference of play style and fluffy. And it might as well of been in the Codex as it was in Chapter Approved which is just as legal. Having 'Nids without the Seeding Swarm option(as a special scenario as a minimum) is like having Space Marines without Power Armor IMHO. Just not right.

Shas'o'Fior
15-06-2005, 13:17
the codex, IMO is simplified (without the mutant sectiion, which make weighing each combo and onerous task) which is a good thing, makes everything easier to put together an army. as a newbie to tyrands (i read the 3rd ed. , didnt own it) what was the points of the carnifex, hive tyrant and gargoyle before?and what is this hive node thing?

The Beast
15-06-2005, 13:34
Hive node was a gaunt with a warrior head that gave the brood ld 10 thus negating the need almost for synapse. The tyrant ranged from 120-300+ points depending on how many guards you took. The carnifex was between 100-200 points usually.

Shas'o'Fior
15-06-2005, 14:20
i mean the base points for all 3 units

thanoson
15-06-2005, 15:46
I don't think the sporemine brood is that worthwhile. You only get 3 sporemines and it takes up a slot on the force orginazation charts. Better to buy the 3 biovores. I believe, without number is the key.

zealousheretic
15-06-2005, 15:58
The sporemine broods are actually rather handy; they're a viable method of putting mines on the table. Try looking at it this way: 3 biovores with frag mines is essentially 180 points to put 18 mines on the table over the course of the game. Compare that to the cost of buying the mine clusters on their own; the costs are comparable per mine.

Now, they're not really an alternative to raveners (which have serious potential this edition) or gargoyles, but I, at least, don't always fill all my fast attack slots. So I've been taking the mines, and they seem to work okay.


Without Number is only worthwhile in specific situations, most of them objective-based. In many situations, Tyranid armies will be in the enemy deployment zone, rendering WN more or less useless, as the recycled broods are unlikely to make it back into the fray before the end of the game. What it's good for is holding objectives and contesting table quarters.

Under no circumstances should all of your gaunts take WN; it's too expensive.

Cheitan Shadowless
15-06-2005, 16:14
Haven't played any games using the new rules yet, but here're my impressions thus far:

Hive Tyrant
A few new upgrades, but overall it's a bit disappointing. The model is absolutely gorgeous, and the return of the Bonesword + Lashwhip combo fans the flames of my nostalgia, though the rules for the sword don't make much sense and it could've done with being a bit more useful. The Tyrant has also increased quite a lot in cost, getting nothing in return, and it wasn't exactly underpriced for what it did in the first place. Oh well.

Tyrant Guard
The new models are intriguing, I haven't been able to figure out how poseable they are or aren't, but the pose GW puts them in makes them look small and ultimately incapable of shielding a creature as massive as a Tyrant. If they can be brought to a slightly more upright position, they'll look stunning. Ruleswise, little has changed. The choice between Talons and Lashwhips is nice enough to have.

Broodlord
Costing less than a Lictor, but promising a much larger potential for getting the job done, this is a critter I'd expect to get a lot of use and abuse. Excellent statline, rules and abilities. A potentially nice model, GW somehow managed to pick the most ridiculous pose possible. A few simple arm swaps and a different pose will make it look delicious - I hope.

Lictor
Very cool model! Very nice special rules! A bit frustrating that it STILL costs as much as an Eldar Avatar after going down to a measly 2 wounds, though. But the sum total of its special rules might make it worthwhile as a strategic asset and to some extent as a Character/Vehicle assassin. Being able to assault from Deepstrike is fluffy and powerful. This is one unit I'm very much looking forward to test in a variety of roles.

Warriors
Not much change here. Slightly more expensive options, but then again the ranged weaponry has also been accordingly improved. Why is there no FoC option? Winged and Leaping Warriors are tasty, but an in-between option would've been nice. The new invulnerability to instant death is handy, but also somewhat unwieldy and unfluffy. A simple +1 toughness option - Bonded Exoskeleton - would've done the trick. They should've had access to Enhanced Senses as well.

Genestealers
Returned to being a very viable option. No points increase, but now with FoC and improved armour, and many options that can make them extremely deadly. Their new models are quite kinky, and the Zoidberg 'Stealer is just adorable. :p

Gaunts
Termagants are indeed much better than before, costing less and having Living Ammunition. Their options can make them cost quite a bit, but most of them look like they're worth it. Hormagaunts are fairly expensive by comparison, but can suddenly throw a WS of 5 about, which is very impressive for standard troops.

Ripper Swarms
Status quo, ruleswise. A bit of a shame they didn't make a boxed set including both standard and spine variants.

Raveners
Worthwhile at last. They cost less, move faster and are deadly both from afar and up close. Still fragile, but if used wisely, their Deepstrike might bring them to just the right spot at the right time. The new models look lovely.

Spore mine clusters
Curious, these. They're an amusing joker to spring on your opponents tactically essential units; Heavy Weapons teams of all sorts and to some extent vehicles as well.

Gargoyles
They cost a bit more, but their Fleshborers gained Living Ammunition, and they were horribly underpriced as it were. Excellent all-round unit. Why, oh why, must these remain metal models? *sound of Gargoyle falling over and breaking* :cries:

Zoanthropes
More useful, and slightly cheaper. Can be made more expensive, because they can now have two powers in addition to their improved Warp Field. Gained Toxic Miasma - fitting with the nice, grotesque new model - which improves their survivability in HtH. All in all, also considering the improved range of a few of the powers, they gained quite a bit in both the defensive and offensive departments.

Biovores
I dunno. They sound like it'll be very hard to make them actually do that much. Brood Telepathy coupled with Ld 5 is fair enough, and shouldn't be hard to cope with, but firing like standard artillery seems a bit dumb. The initial misconception of each of them firing as many mines as there are Biovores in the brood actually sounded more reasonable than the actual rules as they turned out to be. :eyebrows:

Carniefx
The big daddy of the bunch, this guy haunted the Rumour thread for months. It has one of the best looking models I've ever seen, and really spoils the gamer with a plethora of options and accessories. Being plastic, it's also endlessly easier to convert. As for its rules, it's capable of being taken as Elites if you keep it cheap, but you can also pimp it beyond recognition and make a 200+ point monster. Very flexible, very lovely, very near perfect. :D

Overall
Lovely new models. Lovely new rules. There are only a few glitches:
- The Carnifex gets away with all the spoils; why aren't Warriors or Tyrants allowed to take Mace Tails, Bonded Exoskeleton, Thornback and such?
- Why did the Lictor have to lose a wound?
- Are Biovores of very much use now that you can just buy clusters of Mines for many less points?
- And why must dual Venom Cannons and/or Barbed Stranglers be twin-linked at such a ridiculous points cost?
These pet peeves aside, I find the new codex and associated models extremely well-done. The removal of the Mutable Genus rules, Mutants and Special Characters has resulted in what I feel is a more well-rounded, wieldy and sensible codex.

Disclaimer: Everything in this post is a matter of opinion, not fact.

Myst
15-06-2005, 19:28
The Tyrant has also increased quite a lot in cost, getting nothing in return.

I think it has. Think outside the box a little.

With everyone's characters now being unscreanable, having a really tough HQ unit now means a heck of a lot more then it been before, more so if it has leadership qualities like the Tyrant.

hivefleetcarrion
16-06-2005, 05:38
th hive tyrant shouldnt be a push over in the new codex either, finally it gets an inv save, though at the points that it costs will have to be weighted up. personally i will be taking it as i man sick of killing 2 marines then getting fisted to death by hidden powerfists.

ws wasnt really an issue before except against de archons but hey, toxic misima helps :)

and no-one can say that weapons/physics powers got worse(well maybe except posion/frag mines)

if you can keep them alive long enough a brood of zoans can take leadership down 3 points if within 18"..... and with nids high I should be easy to sweaping advance.

pleanty of potential in the list

Scythe
16-06-2005, 10:42
Some first impressions of the list entries:

Hive Tyrant
Nasty as ever. Some upgrades (2+ save notably) got more expensive, which makes them not a no brainer choice anymore. Wings are limited to 1 Tyrant, which is fine by me. He also benefits from having +1 basic initiative (very nice), a 6+ inv save provided by warp shield, and firing 6 shots with reroll to hit and wound with a devourer, which is imho very nasty. Shadow of the warp sounds interesting as well, especially in larger games in combination with psychic scream against armies like ultwe eldar.

Tyrant Guard
Not much change. Scything talons instead of lash whips makes them more nasty in combat imho, as you'd only need 1 lash whip most of the time anyway.

Broodlord
New stuff. Very tempting. For round 100 pts upgraded, you can kill practically every independent character in the game, and maul normal units as well. Haven't tried them out yet, but looks very good.

Warriors
Benefit from better ranged weapons and immunity to instant kill, but gone up slightly in pts and remain vulnerable to standard anti-infantry weapons. Still, they are needed more since Hive Node is gone now, which is not a bad thing. Warriors should be in most Tyranid armies.

Lictors
Cool special rules, but lost a wound. Really a supporting unit now, very nasty if it attacks combined with a unit of hormagaunts or termagants due feeder tendrils. The new deployment rule is definitely an improvement, and reroll reserve rolls helps a lot in escalation missions.

Genestealers
Viable choice now, which is saying much. Fleet of claw and the option for a 4+ save are the main reasons for this. The other biomorphs also became a little more viable pts wise.

Gaunts
Also more viable. Now spinegaunts are not the only gaunts seen anymore. Gaunts with fleshborers or devourers are effective as well, which is a great change. And they have the potential to acctually kill something from range now.

Hormagaunts
Remained as effective as before. Tough the WS upgrade is quite nice. Horma's with WS5 S4 I5 are quite nasty against marines, altough almost as expensive pts wise.

Rippers
Not much change here, basically the same.

Gargoyles
Became more expensive, but were underpriced to begin with. Still benfit from improved fleshborers and ability to move trough difficult terrain. Still an effective choice.

Raveners
Valid choice now as well. Cheaper, faster, deep strike, and more effective ranged weapons that don't hamper their close combat abilities in any way. What's not to like? Altough I doubt we'll see many raveners with twin scything talons...

Spore Cluster
Not that effective, but really cheap, and quite cool. Investing a few pts in them is not going to hurt the rest of you army most likely.

Zoanthropes
Also got a boost. Really benefit from better and cheaper psychic powers, as well from immunity to instant kill as long as they are under synapse control. Combined with a 6+ invulnerable save, they are hard to get rid of. And allowing 2 psychic powers combined with better catalyst and psychic scream will mean we'll also see this powers sometimes.

Biovores
The only unit that's really not as effective as before. They've been nerfed a little too far. The only viable option in my opinion is bio-acid, which with clustered fire can get rid of vehicles and power armour with a little luck.

Carnifexes
Got a truckload of options, but got more expensive overall wise. In short, a basic hive tyrant is a way better buy than a basic carnifex, but the possibilities to tool your carnifex are literally endless so you'll always end up with the carnifex you really can use. Besides, the carnifex has access to be best upgrades in the list, +1W and +1T.

In general, the codex is a huge improvement. Almost every army list entry is a viable choice now, were before only a few units were seen in most armies. This gives way more diversity in Tyranid armies.

Badgobbla
16-06-2005, 12:03
I've heard from several 'Nids players that the new codex is an improvement from the last one and all like the fact that they can take an all-beast army (6 carnifexes) :eek:

Panophobia
17-06-2005, 15:08
My thoughts on the codex so far.

Hive tyrant
it got more options which is nice. but it got more costly. can take only one psycic power kinda sucks. overall its a bit better but more costly.

Broodlord
its ok. more like a small hive tyrant. something different i guess.

Warriors
cost a bit more but with synapse they now become a much better choice, almost over the hive tyrant.

lictor
got a better deployment but still is very fragile.

Genestealers
they got alot of choices here but you have to pay the points for them. but with the better armour save and Foc they can get in there better. scuttlers is awesome with these

gaunts
some point reductions on the fleshborer are nice, scuttlers are awesome. don't think i like without number mostly beacause they start from your board edge, do they probably won't get into combat again but could be used to hold objectives

Hormagaunts
didn't change much. still speedy death

Rippers
They got cheaper upgrades which is nice. pretty nice now. Did any one else notice that in the designer notes in WD they said that if they were winged they were troops...

Raveners
they move alot faster now. and a points reduction is nice.

Gargoyles
They got a point increase?! i have never seen these used. i guess its beacause of how much they cost and that there models are a pain to deal with

Spore mine cluster
I guess if you have the FA slots and the points.

Zoanthorpes
Alot better two powers is nice and warp field got better. throw in the fact that the powers cost less. These are nice.

Biovores
I think it actually got better. it can hold table quarters and stuff now. thye have brood telepathy now, thou granted lower Ld. Bio acid is nice better now, more controlled.

Carnifex
This got alot of options. the only thing i still don't like about it is its low ws and Ini. i can see this thing dying alot before it even gets to attack or miss alot of its attacks :( . However i believe it can get like a max of 13 attacks on the charge. alos having them be shock troops can make alot of them and extra wounds are nice. Basiclly it got better but not in the ways i wanted oh well.

Overall the codex is nice the fluff is nice. thye didn't change anything i thought need changing except for genestealers. I can't wait to use my all genestealer force with the new rules, i will however miss deploying my whole army after my opponent deploys his tho :D

I'm disapointed that GW didn't mention what was up with seeding swarm :mad: at least a they are no longer in affect or a they are used as normal. :rolleyes:

Kargos Bloodspit
17-06-2005, 15:12
Warriors
cost a bit more but with synapse they now become a much better choice, almost over the hive tyrant.

I thought warriors had synapse last edition as well?

wibble
17-06-2005, 15:25
Hive Tyrants may only be able to choose one power, but they get Horror anyway, which is nice.

Atm I'm intruiged by the idea of an army with a Strength no less than 5! (Genestealers with Toxin Sacs as troops). Certainly a vanguard army but fun perhaps.

athamas
17-06-2005, 16:15
I thought warriors had synapse last edition as well?

yes but synapse is much better this time round! (avoiding Insta death!)

Kargos Bloodspit
17-06-2005, 16:36
yes but synapse is much better this time round! (avoiding Insta death!)

but considering that only actually benefits less than half the choices in the codex (5) and out of those, im only really going to want to take 2 and in hardly a big amount of numbers for that rule to really mean that it makes that much of a difference.

Its funny that when the rumours came out that synapse meant that all creatures within range were immune to instant death (minus rippers mind) everyone went w00tage. But when you look at it the only choices that take benefit from this are:
Zoanthropes, warriors, biovores, raveners and lictors (i think lictors anyway, don't have my codex to hand).

Scythe
17-06-2005, 17:30
gaunts
some point reductions on the fleshborer are nice, scuttlers are awesome. don't think i like without number mostly beacause they start from your board edge, do they probably won't get into combat again but could be used to hold objectives

And interesting tactic for without number was posted by Alsiaie in this tread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=73541#post73541):


WN=Without number. Heres the the whole picture. all of your synapse creatures are out of your deployment zone and on the other side of the board. If a unit fails his Ld check it first falls back to the nearest synapse creature. If there are none on the board then the unit falls back to the board edge. But if there is a synapse creature on the board, units failing their Ld to move durring IB will move 2d6 towards the nearest synapse monster. This will result in the unit moving forward. Durring this turn the unit may still shoot so its still allowed to make a fleet-of-claw movement. Read the paragraph under the 3rd bullet about Instinctive Behavior rules. Pretty neat isnt it?


Gargoyles
They got a point increase?! i have never seen these used. i guess its beacause of how much they cost and that there models are a pain to deal with

They were (and indeed, still are) a very viable choice. Under 3rd edition, they were vastly superior to hormagaunts while costing the same pts wise. Now they are at reasonable cost. It's mainly the models that prevents most people from using them. I'd hoped for a plastic kit, but you can't have it all I guess...


Its funny that when the rumours came out that synapse meant that all creatures within range were immune to instant death (minus rippers mind) everyone went w00tage. But when you look at it the only choices that take benefit from this are:
Zoanthropes, warriors, biovores, raveners and lictors (i think lictors anyway, don't have my codex to hand).

True, but warriors and most notably zoanthropes benefit greatly from these new rules. Under the previous edition, zoanthropes could just as well have 1 wound, since everything shooting at them had S8+ most of the time anyway.

Panophobia
18-06-2005, 16:18
interesting about WN but its about the same fallback forward than just moving, unless you fallforward and can FoC and you have to fail a ld test. granted at a low ld


Gargoyles are still nice i have like 30 but the models are so annoying.

I think i calculated a carny can get up to 13 attacks on the charge nice :D

blitz589
18-06-2005, 16:29
I think i calculated a carny can get up to 13 attacks on the charge nice :D
Don't expect for that to get there, last game i used one t7 5 wounds, and 3 dreads with assault cannons, along with lascannon preddator killed turn 1. And hiding it in cover only works if you don;t think he needs to assault till turn 6 or 7.

Mr Evil
18-06-2005, 16:33
The codex has definately been improved for friendly non-competetive play. You're forced to diversify and take useless units like Warriors for synapse, and the increased prices of units + their biomorphs gets players mixing more unit types.

For serious Tyranid players (Tournament players), the 4th edition codex is like a horrible nightmare. Every useful tournament unit aside from Spinegaunts have gone far up in price, lost abilities, or was limited in some way (Flying Tyrants). Hormagaunts are no longer an option as their base is now 10 points so the 12 point Deathgaunt is no longer available. Gargoyles have gone up just enough to make them a poor choice rather than a decent unit. Warriors losing FoF and Carnifexes no longer being able to Dual-VC add some serious drawbacks in terms of Synapse coverage and anti-tank (Non-FoF Warriors will make it into combat on turn 4-5, far too late to cause any damage). Additionally, no BS4 Warp Blasts on Tyrants also take away from anti-vehicle ability. The introduction of FoF to genestealers is one of the only good things in the codex as they might have some use now. The average cost to field a MC with the same profile as their 3rd edition counter-part has gone up 25-40 points. The loss of mutations and far more customizable biomorph charts severly limits what the army can do.

I'm assuming the people who voted that the Tyranid codex has gotten 'better' or 'balanced' have never played Tyranids before. Comparitively, the 3rd edition codex was 3 times more versatile in customizability and had cheaper units overall. The 4th edition one severly limits your options and forces you to take units that you may not want to.

Someone please explain to me exactly how the 4th edition codex is better than the 3rd. No instant-kill synapse is not useful at all, Raveners/Lictors/Zoants tend to be either far ahead from Warriors or on the flanks and do not benefit, while Warriors themselves have abysmal shooting and HtH while also having an incredible move of 6".

So again, tell me how it's better. I'll tell you how it's not.

the spook
18-06-2005, 17:24
Just curious, are you the same Mr. Evil on the Dakka boards that no-one replys to? I understand your competitive pains, but i can point out something negative about everything too. Try to point out something positive before releasing the hounds of negativity here will you?

Back on topic, I want to say that I really like the new Codex as well. I built up my nid army and sold it off before the release of the 3rd ed codex, so getting back into the nid spirit of things was really easy for me, barring the occasional misreadings of biovore abilities.

If nothig else, i love the sheer diversity of choice that is available for play. I'm looking forward to trying an all scuttling/leaping army, or the tyranid psychic scream army.

Mr Evil
18-06-2005, 20:02
No one replies to? The Veteran nid players like Therion agree and share the same views, I don't see what you're getting at other than trying to discredit me.

I am negative because I've been playing 'nids for a long time as my only army. The 'sheer diversity' that you say the new codex is a joke and shows that you have little to no experience with the previous codex. Aside from scuttling, all the other options for the army existed prior to this current codex. But you also had a whole ton more.

Positive? I like scuttling, twin-linked spinegaunts, raveners.

Tell me how this new codex is better than the old one. Don't say 'ITS MORE DIVERSES LOL!' because you know it's not.

Kargos Bloodspit
18-06-2005, 21:08
Tell me how this new codex is better than the old one. Don't say 'ITS MORE DIVERSES LOL!' because you know it's not.

Well, in a way, it is changed diversity, not more nor less. Before you were limited to how many species you could include if you diversified. At least now we can have lots of totally different species, even with making our own. However i'm inclined to agree:

Last edition made much more sense. A hive fleet tyranid army should not be a myriad of lots of different troops all diverse. It should be a small concentrated mix of diverse troops specialised to the last detail to do one job. I dont see a hive fleet customising individual squads to do one thing unless they do lots of batches of them. Special characters like the Red Terror and Old One Eye were removed, and many of you justified this with the fact that it would be very unlikely for a hive fleet to spawn "one offs". But they take a step back completely cancelling out this move by allowing you to create one off squads in your armies.

I hope my point is easy enough to pick out of that...

Mr Evil
18-06-2005, 21:14
Ah, that is probably why people say that it's actually more diverse, comparing the core/standard 3rd ed list with the 4th. What I'm referring to is the removal of the 'create your own hive fleet' and 'mutations' section in the back of the 3rd edition. Most tournament armies utilized both of those and now they've been axed. If one were to focus soley on the standard/core lists, then 4th edition is quite a bit better (It does incorporate the build your own fleet list, but the options are less useful than in the 3rd ed dex).

Scythe
19-06-2005, 18:35
The codex has definately been improved for friendly non-competetive play. You're forced to diversify and take useless units like Warriors for synapse, and the increased prices of units + their biomorphs gets players mixing more unit types.

Alright, of course, this screams for a reply....:D


Hormagaunts are no longer an option as their base is now 10 points so the 12 point Deathgaunt is no longer available.

:confused: How so? Hormagaunts still have access to toxin sacs for 2 pts, so still 12 pts deathgaunts. Or am I missing something? Besides, their WS can be upgraded to 5 now, which is pretty effective.


Gargoyles have gone up just enough to make them a poor choice rather than a decent unit.

They were underpriced in 3rd edition. They are at their real cost now. In 3rd edition, they beat hormagaunts in every aspect, while costing equal pts.


Warriors losing FoF and Carnifexes no longer being able to Dual-VC add some serious drawbacks in terms of Synapse coverage and anti-tank (Non-FoF Warriors will make it into combat on turn 4-5, far too late to cause any damage).

Well, warriors just got FoF for a few months, probably an oversight which was never intended in the first place. Besides, who needed synapse coverage at all since every gaunt unit had hive node anyway? Agree on the carnifexes tough; twin venom cannons were not that overpowering anyway, no need to reduce that to twin-linked.


The loss of mutations and far more customizable biomorph charts severly limits what the army can do.

Far more customizable? Yeah, in theory they were. In the real world, there were 1 or 2 no brainer choices for each entry which got chosen every time while the rest of the options could just as well be flushed trough the toilet. In the new dex, most upgrades are reasonably priced for what they do, unlike before, with a few undercosted ones and lots of overpriced ones.


I'm assuming the people who voted that the Tyranid codex has gotten 'better' or 'balanced' have never played Tyranids before. Comparitively, the 3rd edition codex was 3 times more versatile in customizability and had cheaper units overall. The 4th edition one severly limits your options and forces you to take units that you may not want to.

Limits your options he? I could just as well have a checklist for 3rd edition codex tournament armies. 2 Winged Hive Tyrants... check... leaping close combat warriors.... check.... some hormagaunts/spinegaunts (with hive node mutant and rending claws mutants)... check.... gargoyles... check... 3 biovores.... check.... anti-tank carnifex... check.

Again, in theory, the 3rd edition dex was more customizable. In practise, it worked the other way round. The idea behind the 3rd edition dex was great, however the pts values were not correct. That has been refined in 4th edition, which results in a more enjoyable and fun list. Indeed, I had lost interest in my Tyranids since end 3rd edition/ begin 4th edition, since if you wanted a competive army, you'd end up with the variant I described above.


Someone please explain to me exactly how the 4th edition codex is better than the 3rd. No instant-kill synapse is not useful at all, Raveners/Lictors/Zoants tend to be either far ahead from Warriors or on the flanks and do not benefit, while Warriors themselves have abysmal shooting and HtH while also having an incredible move of 6".

Forgot that zoanthropes can have synapse as well? And a second power on top of that. Thropes benefit greatly from immunity to instant kill; it almost gives them double wounds, since they were instant killed most of the time before anyway. Warriors shooting got quite an increase. Devourers have extra range, reroll to wound. Deathspitters have extra range. Barbed stranglers (the real winners) have extra range, extra strenght, AP, and cause pinning, while still costing the same. And broolords are also immuune to instant kill, which is quite nice if taking on a walker or surviving a demolisher cannon.

the spook
19-06-2005, 19:26
No one replies to? The Veteran nid players like Therion agree and share the same views, I don't see what you're getting at other than trying to discredit me.

Just because someone else agrees with you doesn't place you in the right of the situation, even if they truly are older and wiser. Take for example my older brother who is a great guy and even greater lawyer, but the fact that he cheats on his wife and may or may not be into the drugs doesn't exactly leave me feeling like I want to follow his example.


I am negative because I've been playing 'nids for a long time as my only army. The 'sheer diversity' that you say the new codex is a joke and shows that you have little to no experience with the previous codex. Aside from scuttling, all the other options for the army existed prior to this current codex. But you also had a whole ton more.

My apologies, you come off sounding like a broken record to me, and its playing a tune I get pretty sick of the more it gets played. I would cite Scythes arguement into 'diversity' of the 'competitive' tyranid armies as a excellent example of the complete lack of diversity that characterised the 3rd ed. codex.


Positive? I like scuttling, twin-linked spinegaunts, raveners.

There you go, it wasn't that hard was it?


Tell me how this new codex is better than the old one. Don't say 'ITS MORE DIVERSES LOL!' because you know it's not.

Shall i employ logic on this statement to show how you are wrong, or would you prefer to retract it before you get pinned in the corner with it?

Have a nice day !