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Mr.selfdestruct
26-11-2014, 04:00
OK, the usual disclaimer- if this is in the wrong area I apologize.

Here is the basic run down. We have a particularly talented player in our local group. He just innately understands unit synergy and it a great list builder. I would honestly not say that he builds broken lists or uses over powered units unfairly. He is just my Achilles Heel. So, I am more hobbyist and fluff player than competitive gamer, but I still hate to consistently get my butt handed to me. I don't mind loosing if it feels like I had a fighting chance, but this is just embarrassing.

His last 2500 pt list contained the following:
Master Necromancer on corpse cart
Vamp Lord on Abyssal Terror
Vamp Standard bearer that gives me -1 leadership then fear tests on 3d6 drop the lowest
Skeletons with spears in blocks of around 30, usually 2 of these
20+ ghouls
6 Crypt horrors
5 hexwraiths
Mortis Engine
Terrorgheist.

The skellies, mortis engine and cart march up the center, hex wraiths on one flank, lord and gheist on opposite flank, and crypt horrors plus ghouls take a side and advance. I feel like I have a fair understanding of the rules and tactics, I know the strengths and weaknesses of both lists...I just seem to bounce off of him. Last game I managed exactly two dead skeletons (after rez spells and regen saves) on a fairly aggressive turn.
I took the following:
Grey seer
Warlord
BSB
Tretch craventail
2 lvl 1 engineers
3 regiments of 40 clanrats (2 mortars and 1 ratling gun)
giant rat unit (10)
7 rat ogres
5 globadiers
Doomwheel
Plague catapult
Warp Lightning cannon

Sadly some of the units I purchased had more to do with the fact that I haven't finished building another 40 clanrats or 10 gutter runners, but it feels lazy to just say I didn't bring the right models. Is my army composition just abysmal? The army I'm using is fairly close to what I want it to end up looking like, possibly switching one regiment of clanrats out for two units of 40 slaves, and removing the rat ogres all together, but what else can I do?

russellmoo
26-11-2014, 05:11
Using ruffly the same models, I would restructure your list this way-

45 clanrats weapon team
45 clanrats weapon team
30 clanrats mortar
5 giant rats
5 giant rats
2 rat ogres
2 rat ogres
5 globadiers with mortar
doomwheel
Warplightning cannon

A large unit of rat ogres just puts a bullseye on them, plus encourages your opponent to simply re-direct them, not to mention that rat ogres don't do well in any combat by themselves, they need to be helped out by a hellpit, stormvermin, plague monks, or some other hard hitting unit- so keep them in units of 2 and use them to countercharge in the flank, this way they can do what they do, (tear up crappy infantry) without taking a lot of attacks back-

facepalm
26-11-2014, 17:35
Not abysmal but its certainly on the lower side of what skaven are capable of. Looking through your list with a competitive eye there is lots that pop out.

1) Tretch for me is just not worth taking he really doesn't add much and is pretty expensive for a skaven hero.
2) 2 lvl 1 engineers. You already have a grey seer who you want to use all your power dice through if possible, i can understand 1 lvl 1 for back up but i would drop the others lvl and let him run around with doomrocket/brass orb
3) Rattling guns are cheap but for a reason, mortars and warfire throwers are more than worth the extra cost.
4) No slaves? Slaves are far more effricient at holding up powerfull units like vamp lords then clan rats.
5) rat ogres. They really are one of the worst monstrous infantry units in the game, which is a shame.
6) Globadiers, cheapest way to get access to another mortar, you should take advantage of this.

These are just directly relating to your list, no mentioning units/models you didn't take which are better. Any one of the above is not really an issue but all together your fighting a massive uphill battle before you even start against a reasonably high end vamp army.

Mr.selfdestruct
27-11-2014, 05:24
All excellent points, and I completely agree on all of them. I am setting my rat ogres aside, and the biggest changes will be 80 slaves, 10 gutter runners, and a HPA. I have one technical question and one etiquette question. First, warp fire throwers...as they are move or fire, is it expected to just have them follow the parent unit until they reach combat and then flame the nearest target? I have no experience with them so I'm not sure how anyone could fail to avoid them. Secondly, is it considered bad form to take two warp lightning cannons? I believe that sweedish comp would disallow that but I don't remember 100%
Thank you both for your input, I appreciate it!

Ograr
27-11-2014, 09:05
Warpfire throwers are Move or Fire. They can, however, stand and shoot, which makes them very nice to put on a unit that's incredibly in the way of an enemy unit.
Adding another WLC should not be unsporting. They're (argueably) weaker than a normal cannon due to the variable strength (and good odds of blowing a nuke into your own army). Personally, I've a warpfire thrower, two Warp Lightning Cannons, a DOOMwheel and two Plague Mortars, all of which is enough motivation for the enemy force to come to me, instead of wait me out. This means I can deploy my forces to protect my flanks and just keep firing until combat time.

Focus your cannons on the Terror and Corpse Cart, get your DOOMwheel and send it at those too. Lone targets vs an explosive gunline is never a good idea, especially with Vampire Counts who rely on their characters to keep the show going (pre-End Times rules anyway). The Grey Seer can Bamf! your Warlock Engineers and their toys all over the map, so they can unload their DOOMrockets and Brass Orbs with impunity. A S5 rocket right into a 30 man skeleton unit will take out pretty much all of them.
The Ratling Gun might be worth it vs flimsy skeletons, but don't get too overconfident. Our toys are fragile enough as is. It also works vs the Hexwraiths, as the bullets are magical, which might very well gun down the entire unit in 1 round. The Poison Wind Globadiers always wound on a 4+ (iirc, I don't have them myself nor do I have the book with me) so you can also use those very well on his high-toughness lone units (the terrorgheist/abyssal terror) when they do accidentally get stuck into combat before having been snuffed out by green blasts (with slaves, get slaves)
The skeletons are not the theats, ignore them. You have superior leadership, numbers and (marginally) higher stats. Take out the big dangers and the boosters with your heavy guns, then mop up the field with your squeeky legions after.

russellmoo
27-11-2014, 16:48
Against VC you can move your weapon teams along side the parent unit, keep them one to two inches behind the front of the clanrat unit and ideally they would be positioned in between two units with as little space as possible between them, this will allow them to shoot when the time comes, move in to intervene if necessary, and protect them from most charges.

Weapon teams against other armies are best screened by other units but in this case most vc shooting is magic based and if he chooses to magic missile your weapon teams then it means he is not directing spells against your much more important rare choices.

Mr.selfdestruct
27-11-2014, 23:57
Good to know. I've ordered a HPA, enough boxes to bring me up to two units of 50 slaves, convert 10 gutter runners, and I'm turning my Plague Claw into a second Lightning Cannon. Question on Globadiers, would two units of 5 be better than one unit of 10? I'm planning on having them advance behind the slave blocks, I can either place them centrally to support whatever group needs them most, or follow each one individually.
In a nutshell my new list will look like this more or less at 2500 points
Grey seer
Warlord
BSB
Lvl 1 engineer
Doomrocket engineer
Orb/globe/scroll caddy engineer (depending on points)
50 slaves
50 slaves
40 clanrats with warpfire
40 clanrats with warpfire
40 clanrats with mortar
20 clanrats bunker for BSB and warlord
5 Giant rats
5 Giant rats
10 gutter runners with slings & Poison
5 Globadiers with mortar
Doomwheel
Hellpit
Warp lightning cannon (or 2)
Looking acceptable?

inquisitorsz
28-11-2014, 02:02
That's almost exactly the kind of list I'm building right now except i got monks and a furnace too. 20 clanrats as a bunker might be a tad weak if the bunker ever gets hit. Perhaps make the bunker into Storm Vermin instead, if you have the points.
The Lvl1 engineer can be the scroll caddy too. I'm personally going to use a level 1 as a warp lightning jockey with a condenser and a scroll.
I feel like Globadiers are hurt by their ballistic skill a lot so you might find that taking 10 might be more useful (they are still pretty cheap).

The catapult you had originally is a massive waste against undead because you don't get the auto panic checks.
The gutter runners are usually a must take, and they could hurt the abyssal terror or terrorgheist but be aware that the scream will hurt them pretty badly.
Considering how many juicy targets your opponent has for cannon fire, I'd take 2. I don't know about the hellpit against unbreakable enemies. Seems like he might get bogged down too easily, but I'm not sure about that.

Metacarpi
28-11-2014, 10:03
Good to know. I've ordered a HPA, enough boxes to bring me up to two units of 50 slaves, convert 10 gutter runners, and I'm turning my Plague Claw into a second Lightning Cannon. Question on Globadiers, would two units of 5 be better than one unit of 10? I'm planning on having them advance behind the slave blocks, I can either place them centrally to support whatever group needs them most, or follow each one individually.
In a nutshell my new list will look like this more or less at 2500 points
Grey seer
Warlord
BSB
Lvl 1 engineer
Doomrocket engineer
Orb/globe/scroll caddy engineer (depending on points)
50 slaves
50 slaves
40 clanrats with warpfire
40 clanrats with warpfire
40 clanrats with mortar
20 clanrats bunker for BSB and warlord
5 Giant rats
5 Giant rats
10 gutter runners with slings & Poison
5 Globadiers with mortar
Doomwheel
Hellpit
Warp lightning cannon (or 2)
Looking acceptable?

I'm of the opinion that when it comes to Skaven, if you're not taking a large block of Plague Monks with the Plague Banner, you're doing something wrong. Ideally have a Furnace in there too.

m1acca1551
28-11-2014, 10:16
Against your new list I think we may have your mate on here shortly asking about how he can make his army better against Skaven especially slaves and Hpa... And our answer will be ... Take 2 terrorgheists etc and in the end you will both end up using cookie cutter comp lists haha

Mr.selfdestruct
30-11-2014, 21:28
That's a distinct possibility!
Well quick update, I had a game against another friend the other night. This game was only 1500 points and against Beastmen, but it was still a great learning experience. My doomwheel was fantastic, as well as my 1 block of 40 slaves who held up a large unit of Gors before exploding and taking out 7 more. Question, am I reading the FAQ correctly in that when shooting into combat with slaves, I DONT have to randomize?
Also, my first outing with the warp fire thrower! I see why everyone likes it so much, there will likely be 2 in every list I make from now on. I originally liked the mortar best due to move and fire, but the thrower proved itself admirably. I don't believe I have any other questions...but I want to thank everyone again for their guidance.