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View Full Version : New Units with Khaine--New Evidence?



ucsimplyme
26-11-2014, 17:23
I brought this up in another thread but it seemed to be overlooked. There seems to be a real enigma in the leaked magic that may point to new units.

End Times magic rules are to be used if any of these conditions apply:


Magic of the End Times is listed as a special rule for a scenario.
If either player is fielding an army chosen using an Elven Hosts army list from this book.
If either player is using a unit from the New Armies and Units section of this book.
If either player wants to use the Magic of the End Times rules instead of the rules for magic in the Warhammer rule book.


Re-read bullet points 2 and 3. What are the new units of bullet point #3? They clearly aren't the special characters since those special characters all have new titles (like Avatar of Khaine) which disqualify them from use in original book armies. They clearly aren't new elven units, and if they are, they can't be used with any of the elven armies (since they don't appear in any of the Elven Hosts lists included in the book).

So these new units probably aren't for elves, but who are they for and are miniatures coming? We'll certainly know in a couple days but I thought this might be worth discussion.


Here are the magic rules:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/warseer/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Shadeseraph http://www.warseer.com/forums/warseer/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7324267#post7324267)
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtop...892871#p892871 (http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=892871#p892871)

snirr
26-11-2014, 17:43
But isn't a special character a unit by himself?
And those rules are new and only exist in the Khaine book. You could say they are units from the New armies and units section of that book.

ucsimplyme
26-11-2014, 17:48
But isn't a special character a unit by himself?
And those rules are new and only exist in the Khaine book. You could say they are units from the New armies and units section of that book.

Agreed, but those characters can't be added to normal High Elf or Dark Elf armies since they are specialized version of those characters. You can have Malekith in a Dark Elf Army but you can't have Malekith, the Eternity King in one. He is allowable in Hosts of the Eternity King and not in the Hosts of the Phoenix King for example. Does that make sense?

Gonzoyola
26-11-2014, 17:51
Agreed, but those characters can't be added to normal High Elf or Dark Elf armies since they are specialized version of those characters. You can have Malekith in a Dark Elf Army but you can't have Malekith, the Eternity King in one. He is allowable in Hosts of the Eternity King and not in the Hosts of the Phoenix King for example. Does that make sense?

Each of the End Times books has come in a 2 set. one for fluff, and one for rules. Each of the rules books has a "new units" section that lists things including the profiles for special characters that already exist elsewhere. For instance, Karl Kranz is in the New Units section of the Glottkin book.

snirr
26-11-2014, 17:53
Previous new characters and units were allowed in certain standard armies. The blightkings were allowed in LoC and WoC. So maybe those characters will be available for one of the original elven armies. Or you could just ask your opponents admission to do so. In both cases you would use the new unit.

EDIT: There are screenshots of the units allowed in the combined elven hosts. If there'd be new units, they'd probably shown up there.

ucsimplyme
26-11-2014, 17:57
Previous new characters and units were allowed in certain standard armies. The blightkings were allowed in LoC and WoC. So maybe those characters will be available for one of the original elven armies. Or you could just ask your opponents admission to do so. In both cases you would use the new unit.

This would have to be the case if there aren't new units.

snirr
26-11-2014, 18:05
This would have to be the case if there aren't new units.

In the previous books there were some characters with existing models that got new rules (Crom and Valten).

I think we would know by now if there was a new unit. After all there are people who have the book. Would be hard to overlook a totally new unit with no model currently available.

Spiney Norman
26-11-2014, 19:34
Do we know if there are any non-elf characters/units that are getting a new profile with ET Khaine, or is it just Malekith, Imrik, Tyrion and Alarielle?

Pariah-Miniatures
26-11-2014, 21:24
Well I'm not quite sure how playing a wood elf high elf or dark elf army is any different now as the final list is unifying. So until a 9th ed clarification, retcon, or further progression of story arch, I think it's safe to say there is only one list or book for elves now. Thus making the only malekith available, is the eternity king.

Spiney Norman
26-11-2014, 21:31
Well I'm not quite sure how playing a wood elf high elf or dark elf army is any different now as the final list is unifying. So until a 9th ed clarification, retcon, or further progression of story arch, I think it's safe to say there is only one list or book for elves now. Thus making the only malekith available, is the eternity king.

That's not true at all, you can still use any of the 8th edition army books, and since using the whacked out magic rules is compulsory if you want to use any of the army lists in ET: Khaine, I imagine most people still will.

Brother Haephestus
26-11-2014, 21:49
Well I'm not quite sure how playing a wood elf high elf or dark elf army is any different now as the final list is unifying. So until a 9th ed clarification, retcon, or further progression of story arch, I think it's safe to say there is only one list or book for elves now. Thus making the only malekith available, is the eternity king.
I see where you're coming from, but between me and you I am not going to be that kind of d**k and tell my opponent that because his Wood Elves list is also legal as a Host of Eternal King list that he has to play the enhanced magic rules. Seems to me an overly aggressive stance and doesn't sound like it would be a fun way to game.

Mike3791
26-11-2014, 22:07
Well I'm not quite sure how playing a wood elf high elf or dark elf army is any different now as the final list is unifying. So until a 9th ed clarification, retcon, or further progression of story arch, I think it's safe to say there is only one list or book for elves now. Thus making the only malekith available, is the eternity king.

Really? So if I own the Dark Elves army and want to include a frost phoenix in my army, where am I supposed to find the rules for it outside the High Elves book? Same applies to Chaos Warriors that want to add Plague Drones, etc. All books are still fully valid.

Itake
26-11-2014, 22:17
Question is will people running Undead/Chaos/Elven legion lists expect to play against people not running Undead/Chaos/Elven lists? A battle between a Chaos Legion list and an Eternity King lists seems fair enough (though the eternity king list is a bit OP even by ET standards), but a battle between an Eternity King list and a normal OnG list? In every ET list we've seen more or less every unit get better (sometimes massively better) and the army selection options greatly expanded while points cost have remained untouched. Everything is better but still costs the same. Doesn't this but a huge power gap between ET lists and those armies that haven't received the ET treatment yet?

Mike3791
26-11-2014, 22:38
Doesn't this but a huge power gap between ET lists and those armies that haven't received the ET treatment yet?

Probably, but players used to have to wait several years to up to a decade to receive updates. I don't think it'll kill us to wait another few months for the rest of the content.

Spiney Norman
26-11-2014, 22:41
Question is will people running Undead/Chaos/Elven legion lists expect to play against people not running Undead/Chaos/Elven lists? A battle between a Chaos Legion list and an Eternity King lists seems fair enough (though the eternity king list is a bit OP even by ET standards), but a battle between an Eternity King list and a normal OnG list? In every ET list we've seen more or less every unit get better (sometimes massively better) and the army selection options greatly expanded while points cost have remained untouched. Everything is better but still costs the same. Doesn't this but a huge power gap between ET lists and those armies that haven't received the ET treatment yet?

It does depend, I don't think it makes a massive difference to undead, the boost there only brought them up to the level they should have been at all along, pretty much where everyone else is (as long as you leave the super-charged characters at home), chaos do get a bit silly once you start using the chaos Ascendent rules, Unbreakable daemons without instability is a bit broken. They are nothing compared to the elves though, all three elf books were top tier already, now they all have both prowess abilities and super-charged magic rules (though that does affect the opposing army too).

It seems to me that each ET book that comes out ramps up the power another notch, I'm slightly nervous with what they might do to the next one.

Pariah-Miniatures
26-11-2014, 23:03
I think you're all misunderstanding what I said. I never commented on the magic, but on that, yeah I probably wouldn't use it and don't expect people to.
It's obvious you need the parent codex to play because that's where the unit rules n such come from. Of course you can take all high elf units or woody or darky... But they all call under one unified race. So the distinct lines between them will be blurred, esp over time

Spiney Norman
26-11-2014, 23:12
I think you're all misunderstanding what I said. I never commented on the magic, but on that, yeah I probably wouldn't use it and don't expect people to.
It's obvious you need the parent codex to play because that's where the unit rules n such come from. Of course you can take all high elf units or woody or darky... But they all call under one unified race. So the distinct lines between them will be blurred, esp over time

I think you misunderstood me, it's still perfectly viable to take a wood elf army from the wood elf army book for example, and I think a lot of people will still do that because the new buffed magic rules come as part of the package if you decide to field an army from the Host of the Eternity King list.

It seems that you can't use the host of the eternity king unless you also use the new magic system (which I think will turn a lot of people off it), I for one will still be using my wood elf army book list to field my elves.

ucsimplyme
26-11-2014, 23:43
I think you misunderstood me, it's still perfectly viable to take a wood elf army from the wood elf army book for example, and I think a lot of people will still do that because the new buffed magic rules come as part of the package if you decide to field an army from the Host of the Eternity King list.

It seems that you can't use the host of the eternity king unless you also use the new magic system (which I think will turn a lot of people off it), I for one will still be using my wood elf army book list to field my elves.

And that is the exact question I had. If one wanted to field Alarielle, the Avatar of Isha (arguably a unit from the new book), then they have to play the Host of the Phoenix King army. They can't field just a normal elf army. So, that is my question. Fielding any of the characters that have been revealed triggers condition #2 (playing a elven host army) and those units can't be fielded without triggering #2. When is condition #3 triggered that condition #2 wouldn't and if it isn't, then why is it even in the book? What purpose does that condition serve if there aren't units that can be fielded in non-elven legions armies?

Darkspear
26-11-2014, 23:50
And that is the exact question I had. If one wanted to field Alarielle, the Avatar of Isha (arguably a unit from the new book), then they have to play the Host of the Phoenix King army. They can't field just a normal elf army. So, that is my question. Fielding any of the characters that have been revealed triggers condition #2 (playing a elven host army) and those units can't be fielded without triggering #2. When is condition #3 triggered that condition #2 wouldn't and if it isn't, then why is it even in the book? What purpose does that condition serve if there aren't units that can be fielded in non-elven legions armies?

There are no new units. I just got the book.

ucsimplyme
27-11-2014, 00:13
Ok, well, that clears things up. It is just a redundant condition and example of bad writing.

Lucifig
27-11-2014, 01:13
Or just you reading more into what was written than was actually written.

Urgat
27-11-2014, 07:15
It seems to me that each ET book that comes out ramps up the power another notch, I'm slightly nervous with what they might do to the next one.

Heh, maybe for the first time in history greenskins will get a top tier list if this goes on ? :p

scourge66
27-11-2014, 07:33
Or just you reading more into what was written than was actually written.

agreed, this seams much more likely. 'units' have always included special characters within a faction.

Spiney Norman
27-11-2014, 07:46
Ok, well, that clears things up. It is just a redundant condition and example of bad writing.

Or perhaps not, given what they have done with chaos Ascendent and the end times magic I wouldn't be at all surprised of one of the future books contains some ham-fisted rules for shoving allied forces in your army, it seems to be about the only way left they could break the game any more. Rather than redundant, it might just be forward looking.


Heh, maybe for the first time in history greenskins will get a top tier list if this goes on ? :p

Probably a completely "logical" combined list with skaven and ogres, I am particularly looking forward to the new profile 'Skarsnik: Hand of Mork' where Gobbla will have the size and profile of the Uber forgeworld squig and skarnsnik will have a 2+ ward save :D

Doommasters
27-11-2014, 20:23
You also don't have to make a list with every power gaming option available

SimaoSegunda
27-11-2014, 21:39
Some of the new Special Characters have been useable with the old books, e.g. Spume in a WoC army. Are any of the new characters like from ET: Khaine?

SuperHappyTime
27-11-2014, 21:50
You also don't have to make a list with every power gaming option available


(But you should)


I see where you're coming from, but between me and you I am not going to be that kind of d**k and tell my opponent that because his Wood Elves list is also legal as a Host of Eternal King list that he has to play the enhanced magic rules. Seems to me an overly aggressive stance and doesn't sound like it would be a fun way to game.

i haven't read the new Khaine rules yet. But if they're anything like the Legions of Undead list, I have to ask why you wouldn't try to play with the new legion list instead of the army book one (See, Tomb Kings)

Spiney Norman
27-11-2014, 22:37
You also don't have to make a list with every power gaming option available

And expecting that your opponent won't use the power options at his disposal just because it is the decent thing to do is a complete failure waiting to happen.

herohammer
27-11-2014, 23:53
kind of odd that the end times magic rules don't trigger if anyone is using a chaos legion or undead legion

forseer of fates
28-11-2014, 00:00
Maliketh is so worth his 1k points, leaves Nagash looking like crappo for his points.

boli
28-11-2014, 01:42
The way I see it the army of the Phoenix king & Estyrion armies *seem fair* .. Or at least not too overpowered if no special characters or the new magic is allowed.

Would be nice to field my wood elves and high elves together... I just wish I hadn't just finished painting tyrion...

Urgat
28-11-2014, 07:03
Probably a completely "logical" combined list with skaven and ogres, I am particularly looking forward to the new profile 'Skarsnik: Hand of Mork' where Gobbla will have the size and profile of the Uber forgeworld squig and skarnsnik will have a 2+ ward save :D
I'm still way doubtfull about all the lists being merged.

Spiney Norman
28-11-2014, 07:09
Maliketh is so worth his 1k points, leaves Nagash looking like crappo for his points.

Malekith is easily worth at least 1200-1500 I'd say, he is objectively better than Karl Franz ascended in terms of his combat profile AND he is a L5 loremaster of shadow, and not to mention KFA is regarded as undercosted...

WhispersofBlood
28-11-2014, 16:49
I've played a game using the new magic, and I'll go on record in public in saying they are vastly superior to the old rules, and from a competitive point of view will produce much more consistent magic phases through out the game.

The new rules shift the magic phase from 6 dicing the spell you really need/want, to resource management and risk management. Trying to play the magic phase the old way has gotten harder to do with greater risks, while carrying the same reward. It is a surprisingly nuanced and intellegent magic system, and you should all give it a try when you get a chance. It really is excellent, really really excellent I can't stress it enough.

Scammel
28-11-2014, 17:03
Maliketh is so worth his 1k points, leaves Nagash looking like crappo for his points.

Nagash does make entire armies by his lonesome, in fairness.

Spleendokta
28-11-2014, 21:19
I've played a game using the new magic, and I'll go on record in public in saying they are vastly superior to the old rules, and from a competitive point of view will produce much more consistent magic phases through out the game.

The new rules shift the magic phase from 6 dicing the spell you really need/want, to resource management and risk management. Trying to play the magic phase the old way has gotten harder to do with greater risks, while carrying the same reward. It is a surprisingly nuanced and intellegent magic system, and you should all give it a try when you get a chance. It really is excellent, really really excellent I can't stress it enough.

Yeah played a game today with the new khaine book, love the new magic phase.

daftpunkevo
29-11-2014, 16:15
Ok, well, that clears things up. It is just a redundant condition and example of bad writing.

Actually, no, The New Units are just the Unit with a (K) in the army list, like special character.
IT was pretty clear they will be no new unit from the beginning, for once it was clear.

WhispersofBlood
29-11-2014, 18:16
Yeah played a game today with the new khaine book, love the new magic phase.

I like how they change the decisions you make about the "power spells". It goes from "I'm casting this because its the most convenient way to handle the problem", to "Can I achieve my goal without risking handing my opponent the advantage for the remainder of the phase?". The risk of miscast remains, and the lose levels miscast result is terrifying now, as you will lose your levels before you use your spells, and even if you don't you can't cast anymore leaving unused resources. That is on top of the risk of losing your wizard. Which before you even get to that point you might need a minimum of 4 dice to get a power spell of from 15-18, and 5 dice for anything more without risk of failure. Not to mention your opponent could just get to use more dice than you to stop the spell. Its changed the dynamics of successfully getting the spell off while keeping the power of the spell viable.

N00B
29-11-2014, 19:16
Glad to hear that the new magic system seems to be working. It does seem like it might cause a bit of a reevaluation of a lot of spells.

If you are able to continually recast the same spell it does seem like some might suddenly be getting rather good. Do you roll to see how many dice you can throw at a spell before of after you chose which version you cast?