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Feefait
29-11-2014, 21:25
I have been playing Warhammer since 1992. I have played lots of 40k, but my longest run was with Warhammer. Over the past year or two my frinds and I have basically moved away from Warhammer. We haven't really moved on to any other games, just kind of lost interest. The End Time got us interested again. Then we looked closer...

One of the main reasons we had stopped buying was pricing. I know there has been a lot said here already about pricing but it seems like End Times has gotten even more out of control. Looking at $100 for a model? lol Nope... And honestly if you are justa casual player or fan none of it even makes sense. Are these models we can use for the next 10-15 years, or are they a specific set of rules just for a specific game a la the Storm of Magic? The clarity in the whole campaign is completely nonexistent. I know GW has clamped down on rumors, and they are going through management changes but still the lack of clarity will not help bring in those of us who might be looking to get back in or compel us to spend money - which they desperately need.

Those of us who have played this long remember the old books, when fluff was still very important and the setting drew us to the game. We spent hours reading and rereading the Lost and The Damned, Warhammer Armies and the Warhammer rulebook. GW had a chance to do something similar, but a paragraph under each $60 book does nothing to tell us why we should bother buying the book.

Maybe 9th will bring us back, but if it looks like ti will invalidate the stuff we have collected over the past 20 years then we probably just won't ever come back. I could deal with not using my Doomwheel for a couple editions, but if I can't use the 200+ painted clanrats I have then that's an issue. GW is setting up something big (I think), but they need to tell us more about what it is if.

Sorry for the long rant. I hope I am not the only one who feels like this is a major missed opportunity to do something really cool that just ends up leaving people behind.

CountUlrich
29-11-2014, 21:32
Tou are mostly because the ET has brought a ton of old players back and been selling like hotcakes and generally very well received.


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SuperHappyTime
29-11-2014, 22:18
One of the main reasons we had stopped buying was pricing.

You must be new here...

Yes, Prices are too high. Relatively though, ET stuff is appropriately priced at the same ~$100 per 500 points that everything else is.
Should everything be a lower price? Hell muddaflippin Yes!

TheOldblood
29-11-2014, 22:22
End Times models have generally been really good value, if you ask me. Nagash for that price? Every time, it is a gorgeous model. Same with the Mortarchs. The Spirit Hosts really are a good deal too. Less true of the Chaos stuff, but they are still solid.

I don't know what is unclear about the End Times. It is a book series that you can choose to use in your games or not. Any changes to the main rules are contained in the FAQS. In terms of rules, models and fluff the End Times Nagash is the best thing to happen to the game in all the time I've been in the hobby (10+ years). It is an incredible book that I'd recommend to anybody, it has an amazing hobby focus, great models and reinvigorates Tomb Kings and VC without being unbalanced (except Nagash who is a one trick sexy pony).

HelloKitty
29-11-2014, 23:24
I've seen the opposite. I have been playing fantasy since the beginning of 5th edition, and the End Times are one of the top events / occurrences in the fantasy world that have brought more people back to the game or new players to the game. Offhand I cannot think of anything else that has had more of an impact on revitalizing fantasy than this.

Now i can only speak from my own perception and area, not globally. However, this seems to be a price-ranting post and while I do not know anyone that does not think GW prices are too high - I can say that every ET release and model has mostly sold out here and that excitement for fantasy is at a level not seen since the first few months of 8th which brought back my fantasy community in a big way.

I'm not seeing any indication that anything will be invalidated in 9th edition to begin to get worried about that and start negative-posting about that. I do see them combining army lists, and bringing in allies, but I figured that was coming years ago and allies were a thing back when I started for me to get upset about that.

Urgat
30-11-2014, 00:29
I don't know what is unclear about the End Times.

Some people have this very weird notion that after ET, all the new plastic kits introduced with ET may not be usable anymore. Yes, you know, these plastic models GW spent ludicrously enormous amounts of money on.
You know, as the OP points out, like the chimera and the manticore released for Storm of Magic, not usable anymore - oh wait. This might have been a valid concern had the models been finecast or metal. But not plastic, no.

Feefait
30-11-2014, 06:37
Some people have this very weird notion that after ET, all the new plastic kits introduced with ET may not be usable anymore. Yes, you know, these plastic models GW spent ludicrously enormous amounts of money on.
You know, as the OP points out, like the chimera and the manticore released for Storm of Magic, not usable anymore - oh wait. This might have been a valid concern had the models been finecast or metal. But not plastic, no.

Right, except regardless of material those models and that book were a very limited run. Am I supposed to spend $60 on a book that won't be usable in a year? $100 on a model? There is no clear statement saying that Nagash et al will be usable in 9th. My point in all this is that IF you are in the hobby now and IF you think their pricing is okay then I am sure ET makes perfect sense and works for you. For thos eof us who are not on these forums daily or even weekly anymore, and hardly on the GW site anymore we are not exactly sure what is happening. We have 2 local game stores that still sell Warhammer, but one hasn't had new stock in months and the other has it all relegated to a back, dusty corner peeking out from behind 40k. Do you know how much promotion is going on there for ET? None.

I know we'v been over this before, and I am not just here to say the hobby is dead. Locally it may be, but that is just here in our moderate sized city of 300k where Warhammer used to be very popular. GW needs to come out and say exactly what ET is, and which books/units may work going forward, or if this is a subset of the main game like Siege.

As far as a "good value"? That's an apologists take. I don't play WoW, but for $100 I could get a years subscription, always have the ability to play and require way less work on my part. Or I could buy crap ton of other games on Steam or XBox or whatever... Tons of Magic cards. Not one model that I may use once or twice a month, maybe. I am not going to deny they are beautiful. The new Nurgle stuff with the beasts and riders or whatever they are look absolutely amazing. I have been a huge fan of the ascetics of the models even back to the Ogre manga-cartoon-stylized looking stuff. Tell me how my son or nephew or anyone with a weekly allowance is ever going to buy this stuff though. That's not going to happen, and if the ET is meant to rebirth the game in a new, affordable form they are not having a good start.

But oh yea, I forget it's Warhammer... it's not for everyone, it's a niche game, a rich mans game... whatever you call it these days. It's in serious trouble and ET doesn't seem to be helping.

thesoundofmusica
30-11-2014, 08:37
Trust me when I say that in a town of 300k people the game is not dead. Your group may be dead, the people you used to talk to about warhammer may not be interested anymore etc... But somewhere people are playing in kitchens and basements and you just dont know about them and you're not invited and for the most part they are not missing your company. It's just the sad reality. I live in a small community with a population around the 40k mark and still after 17 years I hear about groups playing that I never though were Warhammer dudes.

People are just projecting their Warhammer experience on a larger community. "Warhammer is dead in my area" means nothing unless "my area" actually happens to be a farm in the middle of nowhere.

dalezzz
30-11-2014, 08:43
Prices are on par with most other popular games on a per model basis (in fact glottkins a lump cheaper than the hordes gargantuans for example) and now you need fewer models.

dalezzz
30-11-2014, 08:49
Trust me when I say that in a town of 300k people the game is not dead. Your group may be dead, the people you used to talk to about warhammer may not be interested anymore etc... But somewhere people are playing in kitchens and basements and you just dont know about them and you're not invited and for the most part they are not missing your company. It's just the sad reality. I live in a small community with a population around the 40k mark and still after 17 years I hear about groups playing that I never though were Warhammer dudes.

People are just projecting their Warhammer experience on a larger community. "Warhammer is dead in my area" means nothing unless "my area" actually happens to be a farm in the middle of nowhere.


Hah , live in a similar sized town myself , been into warhammer since the 80s and just in the last couple of years I've found a group that's been going since before I got into it , and one of my mates that I used to go drinking with from school has a massive undead army :p warhammer fans are everywhere, like skaven..... Or something ;)

Guyver 3
30-11-2014, 09:02
Well I've only been playing 18 years or so and I can tell you the endtimes has totally revitalised my interest in wfb, I haven't really played it in 10 years though I kept my eye in and have bought models purely for painting.

To blankly say it's dead is harsh and for some it may be true but to critasize gw for trying to revitalise their own game is stupid.


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Actually worked out its 22 years! Jesus I feel old!!

Scammel
30-11-2014, 09:10
It's pretty obvious that ET is a stepping stone between 8th and 9th and will thus be useable in both (see the changes to Lord and Hero allowances, rider/monster combo profiles and Lore of Undeath - pretty strange changes to make if 8th is nearing its end and the new edition is to be completely different). Getting up in arms about a kit as ubiquitous as Clanrats is silly - I will eat my hat if a single plastic kit is rendered invalid by 9th.

The rest of the post - constant emphasis on how long you've been playing, pricing complaints, 'GW apologists' and 'Warhammer is dying' - has more than a whiff of General.

Pojko
30-11-2014, 09:30
At first I thought this was going to be about all of the animal cruelty that's gone on in the End Times.

I've read the first two, going to start Khaine. As always I'm optimistic and will wait until everything is said and done before I decide if it's bad for the game and setting.

Urgat
30-11-2014, 09:32
Right, except regardless of material those models and that book were a very limited run.

The books, yes, the models, no, I don't even know what you're going on about. The SoM chimera and manticores are still very much available, as are Nagash and co. That's why there's really nothing more to discuss on the subject of units. GW don't do limited plastic model runs, because plastic model molds are enormous investment.



As far as a "good value"? That's an apologists take. I don't play WoW, but for $100 I could get a years subscription, always have the ability to play and require way less work on my part.

While I, too disagree that those models are great value, I feel like I should mention that once you stop paying for WoW, you can't play it anymore. You acquire nothing, just a lease for using the game. At least, that 85 euro Nagash, you have it, you keep it.


T But somewhere people are playing in kitchens and basements and you just dont know about them and you're not invited and for the most part they are not missing your company. It's just the sad reality.

Why sad? That's what I do and I don't see anything sad about it. Everytime I've tried to play someone other than my friend/bro, it's been a rather sour experience.

Popsical
30-11-2014, 09:56
I think he means its sad he isnt invited and no one misses his company lol.
Hardly surprising really.

FatTrucker
30-11-2014, 10:26
Thing with ET is its great things are happening. All races and factions are involved and getting new fluff, models and rules. Following the massive rise of 40k in recent years its exciting for fantasy to be getting some real movement.
As a player though, as each ET book is released the one thing that stands out above all else is that its stripping any pretence of testing or balance from the game.
Its like its been developed by a bunch of superfans sitting drunk around a table.
I think when the novelty and excitement dies down, and people really start to play these games in earnest they're going to find the lack of balance is ruining the actual gaming experience.
If ET really is a prelude to 9th edition, and if the rules, characters and combinations of units transfer over its going to create a broken edition.
Already they've shoehorned some of these rules into the 8th edition core rules.

Trying to keep an open mind but other than an occasional novelty game, I can see my group sticking with original 8th edition rules and books for the foreseeable future.

thesoundofmusica
30-11-2014, 10:58
Why sad? That's what I do and I don't see anything sad about it. Everytime I've tried to play someone other than my friend/bro, it's been a rather sour experience.

No I meant that it is sad for the OP. There are definately groups around playing Warhammer he just doesnt know about them and they are not necessarily looking to add more members.

I myself run a small Warhammer group, we play on a table I assemble in my kitchen for game nights :)


I think he means its sad he isnt invited and no one misses his company lol.
Hardly surprising really.

Something like that yeah.

TheOldblood
30-11-2014, 11:44
Right, except regardless of material those models and that book were a very limited run. Am I supposed to spend $60 on a book that won't be usable in a year? $100 on a model? There is no clear statement saying that Nagash et al will be usable in 9th. My point in all this is that IF you are in the hobby now and IF you think their pricing is okay then I am sure ET makes perfect sense and works for you. For thos eof us who are not on these forums daily or even weekly anymore, and hardly on the GW site anymore we are not exactly sure what is happening. We have 2 local game stores that still sell Warhammer, but one hasn't had new stock in months and the other has it all relegated to a back, dusty corner peeking out from behind 40k. Do you know how much promotion is going on there for ET? None.

Isn't that the store's problem/issue? End Times has been a big seller...



I know we'v been over this before, and I am not just here to say the hobby is dead. Locally it may be, but that is just here in our moderate sized city of 300k where Warhammer used to be very popular. GW needs to come out and say exactly what ET is, and which books/units may work going forward, or if this is a subset of the main game like Siege.


As far as a "good value"? That's an apologists take. I don't play WoW, but for $100 I could get a years subscription, always have the ability to play and require way less work on my part. Or I could buy crap ton of other games on Steam or XBox or whatever... Tons of Magic cards. Not one model that I may use once or twice a month, maybe. I am not going to deny they are beautiful. The new Nurgle stuff with the beasts and riders or whatever they are look absolutely amazing. I have been a huge fan of the ascetics of the models even back to the Ogre manga-cartoon-stylized looking stuff. Tell me how my son or nephew or anyone with a weekly allowance is ever going to buy this stuff though. That's not going to happen, and if the ET is meant to rebirth the game in a new, affordable form they are not having a good start.

1. Value is subjective.
2. The amount of hours I get out of - for example - the Nagash model is very high. Between assembly, painting and game time I will get a lot of time from it. WoW is a terrible example because it is a notoriously cynical time-sink that requires constant payment to be playable. It has no re-sale value.

There are definitely problems getting people started into Warhammer due to the high entry costs due to the size of armies and the cost for big units. But it is also not relevant to this topic. As it goes, the 50% Lords and Heroes rule change from End Times makes it generally easier and cheaper to field armies whilst also potentially lowering game time.

Larkyn
30-11-2014, 12:15
There is no clear statement saying that Nagash et al will be usable in 9th.

There's no "clear statement" that there will even be a 9th Edition, so I wouldn't worry.

By all means, if you don't want to play End Times, don't. It's a supplement, like Storm of Chaos was, like Apocalypse for 40k is.

TheOldblood
30-11-2014, 13:45
Exactly, GW have always encouraged you to adapt the rules to suit what you and your opponent want to play. If that means no End Times, don't do it!

But I'd really recommend the books because they are fantastic hobby items.

FatTrucker
30-11-2014, 13:47
There's no "clear statement" that there will even be a 9th Edition, so I wouldn't worry.

By all means, if you don't want to play End Times, don't. It's a supplement, like Storm of Chaos was, like Apocalypse for 40k is.

Not specifically.

Its true people can carry on playing original 8th edition games if they so choose. But its worth noting that there are End Times rules that have become updates to the core 8th edition rules. Its not just a standalone campaign seperate to the core game, its actually amending the core game.

TheOldblood
30-11-2014, 15:19
Well they changed one rule.

m1acca1551
30-11-2014, 15:33
I understand what your saying and I can agree with your fears but I can't see GW being so stupid as to cancel ET once 9th rocks up.

Every other bad choice people can kind of live with, why because they weren't major game changers. Did finecast change the game dramatically?? No.

ET I believe is here to stay, and I for one an very happy, it's taking me back to the days of old and the new book Khaine has made me want to start putting my DE army together with WE support!!! Plus my undead legion again walks... I'm a happy vet at the moment, I will still grumble and moan about GW pricing but at the moment I'm actually happy haha

Daniel36
30-11-2014, 16:06
Ugh...

A ruleset you can't use in a year's time?

Whoever said you can't? Heck, if you wanted you can still play 7th ed, and the rulebooks for it are dirt cheap. Seriously, I don't see the issue.

End Times detail the End Times (big surprise) and gives you new ways to enjoy the game. And that's all it is, a game. And if you don't like the game, don't play. And if you don't like the End Times, don't play the End Times, and if you don't like Storm of Magic, don't play Storm of Magic, and if you want to include a Cockatrice in your army but don't want to play Storm of Magic, play a regular game of Warhammer with a Cockatrice included. If you don't like to mix Dark Elves and High Elves, don't. And if you do, do. And honestly, you never needed End Times to do that. The option was always there. And if you want to eat pizza while you are playing, eat pizza. No, it isn't in the rules whether or not you are allowed to eat pizza. It doesn't have to be. The rules have always been a framework, and a poorly balanced one at that. So the whole "need to do it by the book" deal is really a moot point, as GW has been trying to convey over the past 50 battle reports in the White Dwarf...

Just enjoy the game the way you want it and embrace the fact that GW is giving us options. Discard those options you don't like.

And you say you spent hours reading the fluff when it was still important. Yes, fluff took a backseat for at least two editions. I seriously hated how GW basically seemed to discard everything that ever made Warhammer interesting to me.

Then came the End Times. Seriously, read Nagash when the softback comes out. It is the awesomest story ever. Everything important has returned, and then gave you a serious left hook to the jaw, leaving your jaw dropped on the floor. The story is awesome. The rules? Don't know, I haven't played an End Times battle yet, but I was already busy building a mix of Warriors, Daemons and Beastmen (WITH MARKS!! OH THE HERESY) way before the End Times were even rumoured. I never needed GW's permission to build the army I want to build, and neither do you.

Warhammer is in its best state it has been for very many years. I am betting that all of those Oldhammer players are going to be totally into 9th edition and End Times. Or, they are just going to coninue enjoying 3rd ed (I think it was) and not be bothered too much about whatever gets released.

Popsical
30-11-2014, 22:33
Whilst id agree the end times is gpod for wfb, i cant agree on the nagash book being the most awesomest story ever. I like the ET story so far, but the nagash story line was a wee bit tedious after a while. So every battle ran:
1. Bad guys winning
2. Oh look good guys are coming back into the battle and are turning the tables.
3. Shock gasp horror! A third army has shown up and bad guys have won.
Yes, while this is ok every now and then. I found after the third or fourth time, it became lame.
It lost suspense and was just predictable.

Emissary
01-12-2014, 01:13
Frankly, been playing since 1992 along with my core group of friends. We love the end times rules and the fluff so far. All 3 books have been fantastic and we think this is the best thing to happen to the game in a LONG time. We already loved 8th edition and the ET have only made it better. If 9th comes along and stinks, we'll just stay with 8th. We already have pretty much everything we need. but I'm not worried about the future. Just going to enjoy the ride we're finally on.

Brother Haephestus
01-12-2014, 02:43
There is no clear statement saying that Nagash et al will be usable in 9th.
There never is. The only thing you can do is decide for yourself whether or not the purchase is valid. For all we know, Evil Corporation (is Evil) is currently buying out GW and planning to gut the entire company. There are no promises in life, and anyone who says otherwise is a fool and a liar.

Col. Tartleton
01-12-2014, 02:55
Whilst id agree the end times is gpod for wfb, i cant agree on the nagash book being the most awesomest story ever. I like the ET story so far, but the nagash story line was a wee bit tedious after a while. So every battle ran:
1. Bad guys winning
2. Oh look good guys are coming back into the battle and are turning the tables.
3. Shock gasp horror! A third army has shown up and bad guys have won.
Yes, while this is ok every now and then. I found after the third or fourth time, it became lame.
It lost suspense and was just predictable.

Yeah, I'm dubbing it Waterloo Syndrome.

1. Coalition Forces winning.
2. Oh look, Imperial Forces are coming back into the battle and are turning the tables.
3. Shock gasp horror! The Prussian army has shown up and Coalition Forces have won.

forseer of fates
01-12-2014, 03:13
But the Prussian forces are on the moon, on the moon!

Jind_Singh
01-12-2014, 07:12
I'm a vet I guess by:

- Dint of time in hobby (10yrs old to current 37yrs old)
- Ex-staffer for a brief period of time (3 excellent and happy months at a local GW)
- Still very much an active hobbyist (Warhammer, 40k, Lord of the Rings, Warmaster)

And I hang out with a bunch of old longbeards of the hobby - we've all been pumped and excited about the ET release!

It's gotten the old and the new excited, it's boosted games of Warhammer when generally speaking 40k was pushing out Warhammer for the longest time, and we had a tournament today using the ET updates and it was great seeing Nagash and Karl Franz ascendant on the tabletop.

Some 20 of us gathered for breakfast before the event today and we all rambled about where 9th was heading - but while none of us knew or had a clue neither did any of us care!

We know the deal - changes will come, we don't see anything new disappear (although they may die in stories), and not for one moment do we think Warhammer as we know it is coming to an end.

If anything we're optimistic of seeing a new 9th ed starter set with hopefully Empire vs Chaos, and a new set of rules.

ET was a great move by GW to bring back a flagging franchise to life - and now I think they will ride the wave and re-launch 9th as perhaps an ed that allows you to play:

Warhammer
Warhammer skirmish

so that the entry to the hobby becomes minimal (similar to the Lord of the Rings concept) but allowing for growth into full-blown army warfare.

So hold on tight

Liber
01-12-2014, 13:47
While I, too disagree that those models are great value, I feel like I should mention that once you stop paying for WoW, you can't play it anymore. You acquire nothing, just a lease for using the game. At least, that 85 euro Nagash, you have it, you keep it.



Spot on.

As an ex WoW player I just wanted to quote this bit as being 100% accurate. I spent 4 years playing WoW, not a single physical item or skill (other than being good at WoW? lol) to show for it.



And having read all of Glottkin, most of Nagash, and starting on the Khaine novel by Gav Thorpe, I have to say the fluff is the best I've seen since I started playing (around 2006).

Lord Cedric
01-12-2014, 14:02
Trust me when I say that in a town of 300k people the game is not dead. Your group may be dead, the people you used to talk to about warhammer may not be interested anymore etc... But somewhere people are playing in kitchens and basements and you just dont know about them and you're not invited and for the most part they are not missing your company. It's just the sad reality. I live in a small community with a population around the 40k mark and still after 17 years I hear about groups playing that I never though were Warhammer dudes.

People are just projecting their Warhammer experience on a larger community. "Warhammer is dead in my area" means nothing unless "my area" actually happens to be a farm in the middle of nowhere.
Well... on that notion. I live on my 526 acre farm way out in the country of southern west Michigan and my club plays here regularly. ;-)

- Cedric

Ograr
01-12-2014, 15:19
I spent 4 years playing WoW, not a single physical item or skill (other than being good at WoW? lol) to show for it.
If you can read Barrens chat for days without killing yourself and/or everyone around you, you learned a valuable skill in anger management.

/Slink-scurries out of thread

Horus38
01-12-2014, 15:27
And having read all of Glottkin, most of Nagash, and starting on the Khaine novel by Gav Thorpe, I have to say the fluff is the best I've seen since I started playing (around 2006).

QFT. Coming up on 14 years in the hobby myself and this is one of the most exciting/interesting times to be in the warhammer hobby from both a background perspective and modeling/army opportunities.

Dwarf Longbeard
02-12-2014, 04:52
Just enjoy the game the way you want it and embrace the fact that GW is giving us options. Discard those options you don't like.

A perfect comment.
After being in the hobby for the past 20ish years (started with Heroquest) and being away playing 40k for a few years my gaming group has really enjoyed getting back into Fantasy along with the Storm of Magic and End Times extra's.
Whilst not playing along the End Times story line (prefer to make up our own campaign's) it's been great to get back into this side of the hobby with the modelling and having some really good games, including having a few with Nagash which felt like a really big event.
It's nice to see Fantasy getting some of the attention for a change and I'm looking forward to seeing what 9th edition will bring, although with how good we're finding 8th edition at the moment with all the individual army books to read through and game with 9th will have to be something really good :)

Collector
02-12-2014, 05:17
When I was younger a quarter use to cost a nickle and you could buy a sheep for a bundle oh hay... This remain relative how? Cost of living goes up cost of materiel shipping/oil/gas workers minimum wage ect so prices of their ONLY product the models/books goes up... this doesn't make sense to me at all. If they lowered the prices increased all wages paid more to get their product world wide and did what ever any fan wanted they obviously would do alot better....

Tarrell
02-12-2014, 05:43
Long time gamer myself, 18 years, and the Endtimes for me = change.
Lots of things im uncomfortable with g elves combine, fav hero goes dark side and villen becomes chatoic netural and kills previous hero.
And lots of stuff I love, Nagash coming back bigger and more powerfull than ever before.
Great new models, though no elves (bring on 9th).
I'm just interested to see where things go to be honest, WF was getting a bit dusty, and introducing a new race (eg 40K tau) or breathing life into an old race (eg 40K Dark Eldar) just wasn't going to be enough.

Pricing well yeah I remember getting models for xmas and birthdays, etc. Never pocket money (which I didn't have, tight budget). But I saved up and still collected.
While I agree Warhammer has become a luxury game rather than a budget cheaper game, the models and character/ story are unmatched.
I remember buying the old High Elf boxes $15-$20 AUS , 4 archers 4 spearmen, all exactly the same. locked in pose. Now its $55 AUS and I get 16, which I can make into different poses, to make a unique unit. And there much more detailed.
I'm ok with that, but some of the heros I agree to expensive, nagash while fantastic model, should not be $150 AUS, maybe $80 I can feel is reasonable.