PDA

View Full Version : Important Question on WOC AND DOC Lores



ROCKY
30-11-2014, 15:12
As we know the DOC and WOC lores are identical with only differences in the lore attributes. Does this allow us to Double lore? as example can a great unclean one and a lvl 4 sorceror lord of nurgle both possess fleshy abundance? and cast them?

Maetco
30-11-2014, 16:12
To the best of my knowledge, they are two different Lores so yes.

SteveW
02-12-2014, 06:52
They are not different lores. They are lore of tzeench, nurgle, and slaanesh. Not, lore of daemons nurgle/ lore of warriors nurgle.

Don Zeko
04-12-2014, 01:37
They are not different lores. They are lore of tzeench, nurgle, and slaanesh. Not, lore of daemons nurgle/ lore of warriors nurgle.

What do you base that on?

forseer of fates
04-12-2014, 02:22
They are same lore's, with different lore attributes, like lizardmen and high elves, same high magic lore, different lore attributes.

Maetco
04-12-2014, 06:45
They are not different lores. They are lore of tzeench, nurgle, and slaanesh. Not, lore of daemons nurgle/ lore of warriors nurgle.

Just so I understand how you see the situation, I'm going to ask a question. Do you think that WoC wizards are allowed to use the DoC version of the lore they are allowed to take (eg. a Sorcerer with Mark of Slaanesh could take DoC version of Lore of Slaanesh) and vice versa?

SteveW
04-12-2014, 13:41
Just so I understand how you see the situation, I'm going to ask a question. Do you think that WoC wizards are allowed to use the DoC version of the lore they are allowed to take (eg. a Sorcerer with Mark of Slaanesh could take DoC version of Lore of Slaanesh) and vice versa?


No, the daemons have different lore attributes just like how wood elves, high elves, and lizards do. Doesn't stop it from being the same lore.

Don Zeko
04-12-2014, 19:32
My problem here is that I'm seeing a lot of assertion and not much in the way of explanation or citation to the rulebooks. Can nobody make an argument, ideally including some rules citations?

SanDiegoSurrealist
04-12-2014, 20:29
Ummm totally different my DOC magic cards have little pictures of Daemons on them. duh!

SteveW
04-12-2014, 20:48
My problem here is that I'm seeing a lot of assertion and not much in the way of explanation or citation to the rulebooks. Can nobody make an argument, ideally including some rules citations?


I did Don. The army books in question use the exact same term just like any other references to the same lore. There is no such thing as "lore of tzeench: Daemons" or "lore of tzeench: Warriors". There is only one lore of tzeench.

SanDiegoSurrealist
04-12-2014, 21:07
I think this falls into the same category as "Warriors in a Legions of Chaos List can not take magic items from the WoC book because it says they can only be taken by WoC Army and they are now LoC Army"
They have different Lore attributes, they come packaged separate as Daemon Magic and Warriors Magic, they are in different books. They were intended to be different Lore.
That is my opinion.

pippin_nl
06-12-2014, 08:10
Why is it important anyway, since you can either not mix models from both armies (regular Warhammer) or you can (End Times), but in that case you use the End Times magic system?

Don Zeko
07-12-2014, 04:00
Why is it important anyway, since you can either not mix models from both armies (regular Warhammer) or you can (End Times), but in that case you use the End Times magic system?

Because there will probably be plenty of places where people play with some or all of the combined armies but not all of the End Times rules. I know that's the case with several upcoming tournaments in my area.

pippin_nl
07-12-2014, 11:20
Because there will probably be plenty of places where people play with some or all of the combined armies but not all of the End Times rules. I know that's the case with several upcoming tournaments in my area.

Won't the tournament organizers have some more house rules in that case?

Maetco
08-12-2014, 03:28
I did Don. The army books in question use the exact same term just like any other references to the same lore. There is no such thing as "lore of tzeench: Daemons" or "lore of tzeench: Warriors". There is only one lore of tzeench.

This was exactly my point with the question. Eg Keeper of Secrets has access to Lore of Slaanesh. If the lores in the books are the same lore -> s/he can use either one.

pippin_nl
08-12-2014, 16:14
This was exactly my point with the question. Eg Keeper of Secrets has access to Lore of Slaanesh. If the lores in the books are the same lore -> s/he can use either one.

Deamons can't use the WOC Lore attribute if that is what you want.

Maetco
09-12-2014, 05:18
Deamons can't use the WOC Lore attribute if that is what you want.

Argumentation please. If at all possible with rules references.

I you read the whole thread you can see that to the best of my knowledge, they are two different Lores and therefore Daemons can't use WoC attribute because they don't even have access to that lore. But SteveW interprets the situation as that the lores are the same lore. This would indicate that Daemons do in fact have access to the lore in the WoC AB and therefore can use it's attribute. So either

a) The lores in DoC and WoC are different lores and one can have a DoC Daemon and a WoC sorcerer with the same spells or
b) the lores are the same lore and DoC Daemons have access to WoC attributes and WoC sorcerers have access to DoC attibutes.

If you disagree. I would ask you to provide us with some argumentation.

Invincible Sword Goddess
09-12-2014, 05:43
So if this works does that mean that Wood Elf mages can use Shield of Sapphery or High Elf mages Potection of the Ancients?

Also, if you have a high elf mage and a wood elf mage on the same force, and one fails to cast a spell from the Wood Elf Lore of High Magic, could the other then cast the same spell from the High Elf lore of High Magic?

pippin_nl
09-12-2014, 06:14
Argumentation please. If at all possible with rules references.

I you read the whole thread you can see that to the best of my knowledge, they are two different Lores and therefore Daemons can't use WoC attribute because they don't even have access to that lore. But SteveW interprets the situation as that the lores are the same lore. This would indicate that Daemons do in fact have access to the lore in the WoC AB and therefore can use it's attribute. So either

a) The lores in DoC and WoC are different lores and one can have a DoC Daemon and a WoC sorcerer with the same spells or
b) the lores are the same lore and DoC Daemons have access to WoC attributes and WoC sorcerers have access to DoC attibutes.

If you disagree. I would ask you to provide us with some argumentation.

I only have the Wood Elf book at hand and it's clear it can never apply to a HE Wizard or DE Wizard, it is also clear that it's the same lore:

c) the lores are the same and wizards from different races have different lore attributes

ANCIENTS ’ PROTECTION (Lore Attribute)
Whenever a Wood Elf Wizard successfully casts a spell from this
lore, and it is not dispelled, place a protection counter next to him
once the spell has been resolved. Whenever the Wizard (or a model
in the same unit as him) suffers an unsaved Wound and there are
one or more protection counters next to him, remove a protection
counter and treat the Wound as if it had been saved.


WRATH OF THE WOOD (Lore Attribute)
Whenever a Wood Elf Wizard successfully casts a spell from this
lore, and the spell is not dispelled, place a vengeance counter next to
each target once the spell has been resolved (do not place counters
next to friendly units). Whenever a unit with vengeance counters
suffers hits from a spell from the Lore o f Dark Magic, remove
those counters and increase the number o f hits inflicted by D3 for
each vengeance counter removed (roll separately for each counter).

bobhope99
09-12-2014, 06:25
The end times spells clear this up pretty well, there is only one end times spell per lore and it acts differently for lore of nurgle depending on whether it was cast by a deamon or a mortal.

So no, they are the same lore, and same spells, what type of caster you are determines what lore attribute you use.

Maetco
09-12-2014, 13:46
I only have the Wood Elf book at hand and it's clear it can never apply to a HE Wizard or DE Wizard, it is also clear that it's the same lore:

c) the lores are the same and wizards from different races have different lore attributes

ANCIENTS ’ PROTECTION (Lore Attribute)
Whenever a Wood Elf Wizard successfully casts a spell from this
lore, and it is not dispelled, place a protection counter next to him
once the spell has been resolved. Whenever the Wizard (or a model
in the same unit as him) suffers an unsaved Wound and there are
one or more protection counters next to him, remove a protection
counter and treat the Wound as if it had been saved.


WRATH OF THE WOOD (Lore Attribute)
Whenever a Wood Elf Wizard successfully casts a spell from this
lore, and the spell is not dispelled, place a vengeance counter next to
each target once the spell has been resolved (do not place counters
next to friendly units). Whenever a unit with vengeance counters
suffers hits from a spell from the Lore o f Dark Magic, remove
those counters and increase the number o f hits inflicted by D3 for
each vengeance counter removed (roll separately for each counter).

Thank you pippin_nl for the critical reference. The WoC AB's attributes are written in the form of: "When a spell from Lore...". As WoC is my primary this is as I remembered it to be. Just to make sure I checked the DoC wording too. There the wording is: "When a Daemon casts a spell from the Lore of...". I had never payed attention to this before and had forgotten it completely if I ever even had noticed it. Since Daemon Prince (WoC) doesn't have Daemonic special rule, this seems to settle it. If a model with Daemonic special rule uses the Lore, you use the DoC attribute and if anyone else uses the Lore you use the WoC attribute.

So ROCKY, I have to alter my answer.

The name of the Lore is identical in both ABs so to the best of my knowledge, the DoC lores and WoC lores are the same lore and therefore normal restrictions are applied.