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View Full Version : What space marine codex do YOU think is the most fun, And why?



Merellin
04-12-2014, 09:56
As the title asks, I'm wondering what marine codex you marine players out there think is the most fun? I want to hear all your opinions on what marine codex you like the best and why. ^_^

T10
04-12-2014, 10:42
I'm fine with the Space Marine codex. It's fine.

-T10

Brotheroracle
04-12-2014, 10:45
Codex: Fun Marines.

.Torch.
04-12-2014, 11:02
Codex: Fun Marines.
Easily my favourite.

Mack
04-12-2014, 14:44
If by codex you mean Chapter, each has a unique flavor. I enjoy my Crimson Fists. I like their fluff and their rules are nice, especially when you incorporate Pedro Kantor into the mix.

Whatever back story you like is what i suggest rather than a specific power rule that seems to be the flavor of the day. If you really like the lore around something, I find I tend to enjoy playing them more.

Azazyll
04-12-2014, 14:55
Blood Angels. Tragic and heroic in a very Greek sense, without the mopiness and unflattering cowls of the Dark Angels ;)

WarsmithGarathor94
04-12-2014, 15:01
Chaos Space Marines why worship a corpse when you can worship real gods who actually care about their followers to some extent

Weistber
04-12-2014, 15:02
Black Templars ;)

mightymconeshot
04-12-2014, 15:07
Space wolves. Can do just about any army you feel like and I like to play extremely aggressive so the CC boost is nice.

Slowpoke
04-12-2014, 15:09
Space Wolves. Beer drinkers and hellraisers!

Charistoph
04-12-2014, 15:30
Angry Marines.

But since it isn't official, Templars. Though, I have to admit, the Chaos 3.5 'dex was the best in terms of possibilities.

Merellin
04-12-2014, 19:27
Well, by codex, I actualy mean codex. Blood Angels, ChaosMarines, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Or Vanilla Marines, And with fun, I mean what one do you think os the most fun to play. Sorry for not being clear! The Vanilla Marine codex has the most options due to all the chapter tactics they have in their codex, But that dosent nececarily mean one would think they are more fun. Personaly, I dont realy know. Only space marines I have played myself is Space Wolves and I think they are.. So so. They can be fun, But I just dont know what to do with them.. And they are boring to paint.. xD

AngryAngel
04-12-2014, 21:04
Obviously Dark Angels, having limited options means you can concentrate on all the fun !!

Just Tony
04-12-2014, 21:35
Irrelevant, whatever one I like will be replace in 2-3 years with one that may or may not be an actual improvement. Provided they don't revamp the game yet again, of course.

Konovalev
04-12-2014, 22:52
Irrelevant, whatever one I like will be replace in 2-3 years with one that may or may not be an actual improvement. Provided they don't revamp the game yet again, of course.

Ah a fan of the sourpuss marines I see. Their "And they shall know no joy" special rule is quite powerful, but personally I prefer Grey Knights - if you can consider them space marines - because of all their teleporty goodness and the idea of a small band of madmen staring into the abyss as the abyss stares back.

Just Tony
04-12-2014, 23:18
Nah, I'm a fan of the Crimson Fists I've owned and played through five editions of the game since I started playing in 1998, which is why I fully expect the books to be revamped ad nauseum until either the company fails or they miraculously find an edition that works for them and they (perish the thought) work on advertising and expanding the customer base rather than reselling us the same product over and over and over and over...

Szalik
05-12-2014, 09:34
Space Wolves. I like the coats of Dark Angels but their solemness is just too much. The same with Blood Angels, too stiff. Even though I have Grey Knights I do not feel too attached to them at the moment, I just don't "feel" them like in the Deamonhunters codex era.

But when it comes to codex, then C:SM along with C:SW. Both are well written in my opinion and fun to use.


Space Wolves. Beer drinkers and hellraisers!

Hahaaa! I just love this ZZ Top/Motorhead classic!

3eland
05-12-2014, 19:06
Black Templars Chapter - So Space Marine Codex.

Why? Because they are nothing short of awesomeness.

Spiney Norman
06-12-2014, 10:44
Fun is essentially what you make it, I think I could probably have fun with any army if I was inspired by the lore. In terms of 40k codexes I think I'd stick with dark Angels because they're the only chapter I find remotely interesting in terms of lore and models, and laying aside all the complaints about power and comparisons vs the current SM codex, they did a pretty good job of encapsulating the chapters character in the codex rules.

Of course the Forgeworld Horus Heresy books is where the real fun begins.

Not-not-kenny
06-12-2014, 15:57
Neither.

Someone had to say it...

Azazyll
06-12-2014, 16:13
Of course the Forgeworld Horus Heresy books is where the real fun begins.

This. The HH legion stuff is the real Space Marines.

TheBearminator
06-12-2014, 17:06
Codex armageddon. I loved my initiative 3 salamanders.

Of the current ones, I don't know. Don't play Marines anymore. Not dark angels at least, T5 bike armies with 12" shout move is a bit to much for me. I kind of like space wolves, buy some elements in it are just ridiculous. Like the actual wolves and the new LoW on a sled. I've never played against blood angels, but they seem fun.

DeathGlam
06-12-2014, 22:11
Any of them are fun with the right mindset, they all have their pretty models and special rules.

Correct answer is the Black Templars Codex though, felt sorry for all the players of other chapters that had their armies merged into it though. ;)

Just Tony
06-12-2014, 23:03
Any of them are fun with the right mindset, they all have their pretty models and special rules.

Correct answer is the Black Templars Codex though, felt sorry for all the players of other chapters that had their armies merged into it though. ;)

Fun to use? Sure, that'd be Black Templars. Fun to play against? lolno

I'm so glad that codex died a death, there was no reason for 95% of what was in that book.

Grndhog89
07-12-2014, 17:14
Fun to use? Sure, that'd be Black Templars. Fun to play against? lolno

I'm so glad that codex died a death, there was no reason for 95% of what was in that book.

If I could give a one word answer: This.

Perth
07-12-2014, 18:06
I'd say either C:SM or CSM, both because you have much more freedom to create a personalized army with it's own fluff.

MagicHat
07-12-2014, 19:12
The only true Angels of Death is obviously Blood Angels, descending from the skies to cleanse the enemies of the imperium.

Merellin
07-12-2014, 19:27
Would be awesome to build a Horus Heresy marine army.. But so costly.. With 4 books and expensive forge world models.. XD

SirBlackmane
08-12-2014, 03:29
Would be awesome to build a Horus Heresy marine army.. But so costly.. With 4 books and expensive forge world models.. XD
The books aren't so bad now, they've released the red army books for the marines. One or two 30 (depending on if you play one of the dozen released chapters) books and you're good to go rules wise. As to the expensive models, well, you're on your own there. They're pretty awesome though.

As to the most fun 40k marine codex, I'd say Codex : Intergalactic Space Kegger is probably the way to go. The most funny-whilst-simultaneously-awesome fluff, completely different armies and playstyle from the other four loyalist codexes. Close second goes to the Bathrobe Brigade though. Mysterious and sociopathic, without getting all mopey.
(That's Space Wolves and Dark Angels, just in case you didn't get the references)

Losing Command
08-12-2014, 07:06
Actually I choose my marine armies based on their background and/or the models. After that it's just a matter of figuring out how to make the units/army work with the current codex.

TheBearminator
08-12-2014, 10:39
Fun to use? Sure, that'd be Black Templars. Fun to play against? lolno

I'm so glad that codex died a death, there was no reason for 95% of what was in that book.
What do you mean exactly?

jaws900
08-12-2014, 12:01
It's kind or hard for me to chose since i have atleast some models fromk each codex. I only have a few Wolf's and Dark Angels so i honestly can't say i really like them. Blood Angels I enjoy but i often spam Landraiders in that list (GW you had better not screw that up), Grey Knights are rather small (due to the new GK codex losing so many units) but i would have to say my Red Scorpions are my fave. i play a total of 3 "Core" Marine chapters (Imperial Fists, White Scars & Red Scropions)
My Imperial Fists are massive but although my Red Scorpions are small at the moment (numbering Severin Loth, 4 Honour guard, 1 razorback and x2 10 Assault Marines Squads) but the entire army is in Mk4 armour from Forge world. the target is a full company all in Mk4, going to cost me inexcess of 1,000.

Just Tony
08-12-2014, 15:20
What do you mean exactly?

...

You're serious, aren't you?

Have you ever played against the old Templars codex? I have a major grievance with units which completely violate a game mechanic, let alone entire armies. Every "weakness" the army got was easy to compensate for, and the most horrible rules you didn't pay for, OR have any real cost. A one page footnote with units you could or could not use, alternate weapon options, plus a rule for mixing scouts with Tacs would have been enough, plus a few special characters on follow up pages. A compete codex with well-balanced rules like Fall Forward were completely unnecessary, and only existed to flood the models off the shelf. Even that didn't work as GW saw fit to unbreak Templars.

As far as using them? The only one that was more broken was 3rd Ed. Blood Angels. Unpaid for bonuses just because you're red, and the "weakness" of possibly moving forward? Oh, have Dreads as Heavy Support instead of Elites, since they fire at full effect even if they move.

Charistoph
08-12-2014, 15:36
I have a major grievance with units which completely violate a game mechanic, let alone entire armies.

So, pretty much almost every unit in the game now, and every Marine ever since 3rd Edition, period.


Every "weakness" the army got was easy to compensate for, and the most horrible rules you didn't pay for, OR have any real cost.

Which rules did we not have to pay for any more than Angels, Wolves, or Codex Marines? Fearless in close combat?

Vows? Nope, had to pay for them as well as the model to represent them.

Righteous Zeal? So, Morale Check on loosing one casualty, so possibility of running (albeit somewhat low thanks to Ld 8, with no Veteran Sergeants available). If passed, run towards the nearest unit, even if you can't do diddly to it, or the unit was supposed to stay on Objective. Only way to compensate was to not get shot or have a Chaplain, where you STILL had to run towards a unit, but could choose which one you ran towards.

Counter-Attack and Acute Senses seem so bad compared to that...


A one page footnote with units you could or could not use, alternate weapon options, plus a rule for mixing scouts with Tacs would have been enough, plus a few special characters on follow up pages. A compete codex with well-balanced rules like Fall Forward were completely unnecessary, and only existed to flood the models off the shelf. Even that didn't work as GW saw fit to unbreak Templars.

Funny, that's how Dark Angels and Blood Angels were set up before their 4th Edition books, too. Yet, no one complained about them getting a codex...

Just Tony
08-12-2014, 17:03
That didn't take long...


So, pretty much almost every unit in the game now, and every Marine ever since 3rd Edition, period....

So let me get this straight, you are of course comparing ATSKNF to Fall Forward? There's no comparison. One is a special rule which gives the Marines the ability to autoregroup, which is an offset to their high cost and is "fluffy" though I detest that as a reason for game design; one violates the entire Fall Back mechanic and makes a close combat army get CLOSER after taking fire. Basically you get rewarded when every other army in the game gets penalized, and it is a reward that also gives you exactly what you want. I can't see how there is ANY comparison, or how you could defend it. It's like anyone who defends Chaos 3.5, self-serving plain and simple.


Which rules did we not have to pay for any more than Angels, Wolves, or Codex Marines? Fearless in close combat?

Vows? Nope, had to pay for them as well as the model to represent them.

Righteous Zeal? So, Morale Check on loosing one casualty, so possibility of running (albeit somewhat low thanks to Ld 8, with no Veteran Sergeants available). If passed, run towards the nearest unit, even if you can't do diddly to it, or the unit was supposed to stay on Objective. Only way to compensate was to not get shot or have a Chaplain, where you STILL had to run towards a unit, but could choose which one you ran towards.

Counter-Attack and Acute Senses seem so bad compared to that...

Lets see: cost of Space Wolves were raised or stats changed to compensate, though I still think Counter-Attack was an OP rule in the first place. Dark Angels had to pay for Stubborn, Jink, everything. Sometimes overpay. Blood Angels will never be defended by me. At all. And it's nice to see how you carefully breeze over that part of my OP that you quoted when attempting to make your point. Also look at the combination of how you could load out your units in combination with the rules you had, paid for or not. You can't treat parts of a whole in a microcosm, it's all combined. For instance, Fall Forward would only be a hindrance if you were forced to take all bolters, or forced to take heavy weapons. You weren't. In fact, you could tailor your entire army around those rules with no impact to your battle plan. But I see how you can compare that to the other codices. In fact, I now see why you think the BT codex was beyond reproach.



Funny, that's how Dark Angels and Blood Angels were set up before their 4th Edition books, too. Yet, no one complained about them getting a codex...

You must live on another planet, TONS of people complained about the BA minidex AND the follow up. DA weren't complained about until the drop in transport price, which was made universal. Past that, nobody had issues with Dark Angels at all. Blood Angels on the other hand have been addressed ad nauseum, in this thread and others. We don't need to rehash it.

Konovalev
08-12-2014, 17:48
And here I thought this topic would turn to complaining about the chaos codex.

nosebiter
08-12-2014, 17:53
And here I thought this topic would turn to complaining about the chaos codex.


Give it a day or so.

It is a law of nature.

Charistoph
08-12-2014, 17:58
That didn't take long...

So you admit to trolling?


So let me get this straight, you are of course comparing ATSKNF to Fall Forward? There's no comparison. One is a special rule which gives the Marines the ability to autoregroup, which is an offset to their high cost and is "fluffy" though I detest that as a reason for game design; one violates the entire Fall Back mechanic and makes a close combat army get CLOSER after taking fire. Basically you get rewarded when every other army in the game gets penalized, and it is a reward that also gives you exactly what you want. I can't see how there is ANY comparison, or how you could defend it. It's like anyone who defends Chaos 3.5, self-serving plain and simple.

No, I was stating that ATSNKF is part of what you consider a problem, that of army/unit rules breaking the game. The difficulty now is that it is almost impossible to find a single unit that does not do that one way or the other.

So I don't see the point of singling out one book that simply did the same thing as other books did do before it and have done since.

And if you bothered to read before ranting, I compared Righteous Zeal (Fall Forward) more to Counter-Attack and Furious Charge.


Lets see: cost of Space Wolves were raised or stats changed to compensate, though I still think Counter-Attack was an OP rule in the first place.

Not really. They paid for having more gear or other options. Even in 5th.


Dark Angels had to pay for Stubborn, Jink, everything. Sometimes overpay.

Not really. If anything, they paid less for a time than Codex Marines. Before that, they were a supplement that used 95% of its list from Codex, and the options weren't too crazy past what they were capable of.


And it's nice to see how you carefully breeze over that part of my OP that you quoted when attempting to make your point. Also look at the combination of how you could load out your units in combination with the rules you had, paid for or not.

Yes, close combat units being able to take special close combat weapons doesn't make sense, does it? Especially for a force without Sergeants.

I "breezed over it" because you were talking about "unpaid rules", and I was focused more on the comparison of like with like.


You can't treat parts of a whole in a microcosm, it's all combined. For instance, Fall Forward would only be a hindrance if you were forced to take all bolters, or forced to take heavy weapons. You weren't. In fact, you could tailor your entire army around those rules with no impact to your battle plan. But I see how you can compare that to the other codices. In fact, I now see why you think the BT codex was beyond reproach.

Try holding an objective when you had to run off of it. Try being effective when people placed their units so they had to chase after an isolated unit that they may not be able to even hurt or even catch.

Those were standard tactics for dealing with Templars. You can't take these things in a micrcosm, you have to consider how these weaknesses can be exploited and can ruin your battle plan.

And thank you for putting words in my mouth. I never said it was beyond reproach, I am just saying that the Templars were just as "bad" as the Angels and Wolves when it comes to those things. We even "paid" for it by having a reduced unit list as well.


You must live on another planet, TONS of people complained about the BA minidex AND the follow up. DA weren't complained about until the drop in transport price, which was made universal. Past that, nobody had issues with Dark Angels at all. Blood Angels on the other hand have been addressed ad nauseum, in this thread and others. We don't need to rehash it.

And that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. I said no one has complained specifically about them GETTING a separate codex, not what they got in the codex. Sure, some complain about the Marine glut in general. But, the only one targeted exclusively has been Templars.

insectum7
08-12-2014, 20:12
Funny, that's how Dark Angels and Blood Angels were set up before their 4th Edition books, too. Yet, no one complained about them getting a codex...

BA and DA have held a special place in the pantheon of Chapters since the earliest days of 40K, unlike the BT. And some people DID complain about them having a full size codex, esp. the parts where BA suddenly had "blood everything" wargear and Chaplain/Librarian Dreadnoughts.

Black Templars were yet-another-CC-oriented-space-marine-chapter, after BA and SW had already distinguished themselves as such. And the "Fall Forward" rule really was pretty dumb.

Charistoph
08-12-2014, 20:25
BA and DA have held a special place in the pantheon of Chapters since the earliest days of 40K, unlike the BT.

Only those too hide-bound to the past care about such things. We might as well get rid of Necrons and Tau, too, with that attitude. Oooh, we should get rid of all those new daemon units and leave them with only the basic Troop Daemons and Greater Daemons while we're at it. Hey, let's just drop that whole 30K thing, too. It's too new and totally disrupting what it means to be 40K.


And some people DID complain about them having a full size codex, esp. the parts where BA suddenly had "blood everything" wargear and Chaplain/Librarian Dreadnoughts.

You miss my point. They cared about what was in it, not that it existed. The only complaining about its existing that even came close was as I said before, the "Marine Glut" complaint which applied to Angels, Wolves and Templars combined.


Black Templars were yet-another-CC-oriented-space-marine-chapter, after BA and SW had already distinguished themselves as such. And the "Fall Forward" rule really was pretty dumb.

And that should be part of the Marine Glut argument and left as such. Though, I will admit that "Fall Forward" rule was a little ridiculous. As much fun as it could be insulting your opponent's shooting by running at them, it was a problem when the opponent knew how to use it against you.

insectum7
08-12-2014, 21:27
Only those too hide-bound to the past care about such things. We might as well get rid of Necrons and Tau, too, with that attitude. Oooh, we should get rid of all those new daemon units and leave them with only the basic Troop Daemons and Greater Daemons while we're at it. Hey, let's just drop that whole 30K thing, too. It's too new and totally disrupting what it means to be 40K.


You could be a company deciding to cater to a playerbase who already have collections of models and allegiances, and because you as a company have already invested in making all those special chapter specific models in the first place. And maybe you found that BA and DA are more popular than BT.

Maybe you're involved in writing something like the Horus Heresy series in which those other first founding legions play a part.



You miss my point. They cared about what was in it, not that it existed. The only complaining about its existing that even came close was as I said before, the "Marine Glut" complaint which applied to Angels, Wolves and Templars combined.


Here is a list of threads that involve players preferring that the number of space marine codexes be reduced:

Are-you-happy-BT-got-folded-into-the-core-SM-codex (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?378887-Are-you-happy-BT-got-folded-into-the-core-SM-codex)

Are-multiple-SM-codexes-creating-a-rod-for-GW-s-own-back (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?361912-Are-multiple-SM-codexes-creating-a-rod-for-GW-s-own-back)

New-Chapter-Codex (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?323894-New-Chapter-Codex)

Likelyhood-of-other-chapters-getting-their-own-codex (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?301265-Likelyhood-of-other-chapters-getting-their-own-codex)

First-founding-chapter-Codices (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?291052-First-founding-chapter-Codices)

Still Standing
08-12-2014, 21:45
So you admit to trolling?

Some gall you have there, My Charistoph.

Anyway, hands down the most fun Marine book is the HH book. It has more options than all the other Marine lists combined.

Charistoph
08-12-2014, 22:24
You could be a company deciding to cater to a playerbase who already have collections of models and allegiances, and because you as a company have already invested in making all those special chapter specific models in the first place. And maybe you found that BA and DA are more popular than BT.

Maybe you're involved in writing something like the Horus Heresy series in which those other first founding legions play a part.

Not even close to what I'm talking about. I'm referring to the attitude of people here, not the company in question.


Here is a list of threads that involve players preferring that the number of space marine codexes be reduced:

Are-you-happy-BT-got-folded-into-the-core-SM-codex (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?378887-Are-you-happy-BT-got-folded-into-the-core-SM-codex)

Are-multiple-SM-codexes-creating-a-rod-for-GW-s-own-back (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?361912-Are-multiple-SM-codexes-creating-a-rod-for-GW-s-own-back)

New-Chapter-Codex (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?323894-New-Chapter-Codex)

Likelyhood-of-other-chapters-getting-their-own-codex (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?301265-Likelyhood-of-other-chapters-getting-their-own-codex)

First-founding-chapter-Codices (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?291052-First-founding-chapter-Codices)

Right, and they are all about Marine Glut. Even my own with the "are you happy" thread.

Where do they say that Dark Angels alone do not deserve a separate codex, ever? For Blood Angels? For Space Wolves?

WarsmithGarathor94
08-12-2014, 22:51
Next people will say chaos should be rolled into the marine book

duffybear1988
08-12-2014, 22:58
In the past I would have said Space Wolves, but right now it's got to be Raptors led by Lias Issadon. Being able to infiltrate 3 squads is so much fun and can really throw a spanner in the works. Ravenguard go cry your eyes out... suckers. :)

Grndhog89
09-12-2014, 01:01
Why are you all taking Charistoph's bait? You know this conversation with him is circular. Its happened over and over and over. Leave it be.

Just Tony
09-12-2014, 01:39
So you admit to trolling?

No, that was me pointing out to myself that as soon as I posted my response to the other guy, that you'd be in here to take up the Black Templar crusade, which happened. Bonus points for the trolling comment, and added points for thinking you're that important to my life.


No, I was stating that ATSNKF is part of what you consider a problem, that of army/unit rules breaking the game. The difficulty now is that it is almost impossible to find a single unit that does not do that one way or the other.

So I don't see the point of singling out one book that simply did the same thing as other books did do before it and have done since.

And if you bothered to read before ranting, I compared Righteous Zeal (Fall Forward) more to Counter-Attack and Furious Charge.

The fact that every unit has some sort of special rule is a huge spot of contention for me. Huge. Looking at Templars, though, that codex came out when it WASN'T commonplace to have every unit be amped. So yeah, it was a huge deal. Also, altering a rule or giving someone a "pass this roll automatically" rule is drastically different than "do the exact opposite of what the mechanics of the game states that everyone else does, in an army where that's almost exactly what you want to have happen 95% of the time". So yeah, auto regroup doesn't compare to what you got. Furious charge is the one that's worse, even though it's a simple addition to stats and not a complete defiance of the game. Counter-attack was a complete defiance of game mechanic, but when it happened barely gave any sort of advantage, especially when charged by someone or something that goes faster.


Not really. They paid for having more gear or other options. Even in 5th.

So that must have been some other codex called Space Wolves where the root price of each model was increased, or the stat line was dropped considerably. My mistake.


Not really. If anything, they paid less for a time than Codex Marines. Before that, they were a supplement that used 95% of its list from Codex, and the options weren't too crazy past what they were capable of.

So they didn't pay points for stubborn? Or Jink? The only thing they didn't pay more for was transports, which not only did I point out in my post that you quoted (albeit in a later paragraph) but also became the bog standard. Past that, everything that behaved like the standard Marine equivalent cost the same. Anything that had Ravenwing or Deathwing anything cost more.


Yes, close combat units being able to take special close combat weapons doesn't make sense, does it? Especially for a force without Sergeants.

I "breezed over it" because you were talking about "unpaid rules", and I was focused more on the comparison of like with like.

What doesn't make sense is the fact that the Marines are already good at assault, now here come Templars who are BETTER, are able to arm to CATER to it, and also get to carry specialist close combat weapons that can't be targeted out because they don't have Sergeants. Oh, and also don't have to worry about a higher leadership keeping them from falling forward.


Try holding an objective when you had to run off of it. Try being effective when people placed their units so they had to chase after an isolated unit that they may not be able to even hurt or even catch.

Those were standard tactics for dealing with Templars. You can't take these things in a micrcosm, you have to consider how these weaknesses can be exploited and can ruin your battle plan.

And thank you for putting words in my mouth. I never said it was beyond reproach, I am just saying that the Templars were just as "bad" as the Angels and Wolves when it comes to those things. We even "paid" for it by having a reduced unit list as well.

They are called weaknesses, it's what SHOULD have happened to the Blood Angels, but didn't. Think about your Righteous Zeal as WFB's Frenzy. How horrific is it when that unit charges? VERY. As a weakness, you can draw it away. I once again see no issue here. Issues with objectives? Save a Rhino back for after you fling yourself forward and slaughter everything. Problem solved.


And that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. I said no one has complained specifically about them GETTING a separate codex, not what they got in the codex. Sure, some complain about the Marine glut in general. But, the only one targeted exclusively has been Templars.

What do you expect? Templars went from a non-entity, to an appendix army list in Armageddon, to the powercreep tourney flavor of the month codex to underseller getting absorbed back into the main list. Them getting a book over pretty much ANY founding Legion that didn't have its own codex was going to be met with ire. Hell, I could live with a White Scars codex before seeing a Templar one. Or a Crimson Fists one, to make it personal.


BA and DA have held a special place in the pantheon of Chapters since the earliest days of 40K, unlike the BT. And some people DID complain about them having a full size codex, esp. the parts where BA suddenly had "blood everything" wargear and Chaplain/Librarian Dreadnoughts.

Black Templars were yet-another-CC-oriented-space-marine-chapter, after BA and SW had already distinguished themselves as such. And the "Fall Forward" rule really was pretty dumb.

Yeah, I knew I wasn't misremembering things. I remember the forum being abuzz over this. Trying to remember if this was when it was Portent or not.

Althenian Armourlost
09-12-2014, 03:35
back on topic, I like white scars.

Running a 3-command squad list (core+allied), all with a mix of power weapons, and turbo boosting over the board Jinking all the way is great fun. Backing them up with grav-gun 'tactical' bike squads is also cool. I am a huge fan.

Charistoph
09-12-2014, 04:40
No, that was me pointing out to myself that as soon as I posted my response to the other guy, that you'd be in here to take up the Black Templar crusade, which happened. Bonus points for the trolling comment, and added points for thinking you're that important to my life.

Ah, so since you knew it would it do that, you proceeded to do it anyway. Interesting...


The fact that every unit has some sort of special rule is a huge spot of contention for me. Huge. Looking at Templars, though, that codex came out when it WASN'T commonplace to have every unit be amped. So yeah, it was a huge deal. Also, altering a rule or giving someone a "pass this roll automatically" rule is drastically different than "do the exact opposite of what the mechanics of the game states that everyone else does, in an army where that's almost exactly what you want to have happen 95% of the time". So yeah, auto regroup doesn't compare to what you got. Furious charge is the one that's worse, even though it's a simple addition to stats and not a complete defiance of the game. Counter-attack was a complete defiance of game mechanic, but when it happened barely gave any sort of advantage, especially when charged by someone or something that goes faster.

Really? I remember almost every unit having access to all sorts of stuff. Not all of it was direct. Take Fire Warriors. They don't really have anything on their own, but they can both fire and use Marker Lights. Then there is the Bonding Knife which does half of ATSKNF. All 3rd Edition.

So, yeah, it's not as crazy as you think. Excessive, maybe, and in some cases, definitely. But Templars were hardly unique in that regard.


So that must have been some other codex called Space Wolves where the root price of each model was increased, or the stat line was dropped considerably. My mistake.

I seem to have misplaced my 3rd Edition Space Marine and Dark Angels codices, but I have the Space Wolves Supplement PDF from GW.

3rd Edition Space Wolf Grey Hunter: 17 points.
4th Edition Space Marine Tactical: 15 points.
4th Edition Black Templar Initiate: 16 points.
5th Edition Space Marine Tactical: 16 points, but also included in that price is part of a Flamer and Heavy Bolter.
5th Edition Space Wolf Grey Hunter: 15 points.


So they didn't pay points for stubborn? Or Jink? The only thing they didn't pay more for was transports, which not only did I point out in my post that you quoted (albeit in a later paragraph) but also became the bog standard. Past that, everything that behaved like the standard Marine equivalent cost the same. Anything that had Ravenwing or Deathwing anything cost more.

Ravenwing and Deathwing could do more than the standard Bike and Terminators, at least in 4th.

And Jink? Did only Ravenwing bikes have Jink back in 3rd, or was that still a part of Bikes and Skimmers even way back when?


What doesn't make sense is the fact that the Marines are already good at assault, now here come Templars who are BETTER, are able to arm to CATER to it, and also get to carry specialist close combat weapons that can't be targeted out because they don't have Sergeants. Oh, and also don't have to worry about a higher leadership keeping them from falling forward.

Hmm, Falling Forward happened when you passed. Failure was the same as anyone else, with a higher frequency of needing to take that test.


They are called weaknesses, it's what SHOULD have happened to the Blood Angels, but didn't. Think about your Righteous Zeal as WFB's Frenzy. How horrific is it when that unit charges? VERY. As a weakness, you can draw it away. I once again see no issue here. Issues with objectives? Save a Rhino back for after you fling yourself forward and slaughter everything. Problem solved.

So you don't think Righteous Zeal was as bad as Blood Angels? Interesting... Remember that the Death Company DID have to chase everyone around till 6th Edition started, though.


What do you expect? Templars went from a non-entity, to an appendix army list in Armageddon, to the powercreep tourney flavor of the month codex to underseller getting absorbed back into the main list. Them getting a book over pretty much ANY founding Legion that didn't have its own codex was going to be met with ire. Hell, I could live with a White Scars codex before seeing a Templar one. Or a Crimson Fists one, to make it personal.

And here is my actual point. For some reason Codex: Black Templar raises the hackles of quite a few people. They treat it like an upstart who dared to raise itself above its betters, even though it had no choice in the matter. Yeah, it had a hey day, and some people abused the heck of it, but it's hardly the only codex in history to have done that.

I've been a little rough about it, but all I'm really asking is to at least show the little respect any other Marine codex seems to get.

Just Tony
09-12-2014, 05:41
Okay, so I can freely admit that I got that wrong about when you fall forward. Fair point.

Ravenwing were the only ones with Jink until recently. It was one of the things that made them unique. They also were more expensive than regular bikes and speeders. Then the full DA codex came out and you had the option of running non RW bikes or speeders.

And yes, with EVERYTHING the Blood Angels got in their book in 3rd I view as more OP than the BT stuff. I didn't worry about them as much since I knew the hard counters (Shoot the transports, then take out anything fast, finally charge first) which didn't work the same for Templars, and honestly I saw more falling forward than falling back the times I played them.

I show that Black Templars codex the same amount of respect that I show any codex that I few as either superfluous or cash grab bait. Take comfort that I didn't hate it as much as I hated Codex: Craftworld Eldar.

TheBearminator
09-12-2014, 14:18
...

You're serious, aren't you?

Have you ever played against the old Templars codex? I have a major grievance with units which completely violate a game mechanic, let alone entire armies. Every "weakness" the army got was easy to compensate for, and the most horrible rules you didn't pay for, OR have any real cost. A one page footnote with units you could or could not use, alternate weapon options, plus a rule for mixing scouts with Tacs would have been enough, plus a few special characters on follow up pages. A compete codex with well-balanced rules like Fall Forward were completely unnecessary, and only existed to flood the models off the shelf. Even that didn't work as GW saw fit to unbreak Templars.

As far as using them? The only one that was more broken was 3rd Ed. Blood Angels. Unpaid for bonuses just because you're red, and the "weakness" of possibly moving forward? Oh, have Dreads as Heavy Support instead of Elites, since they fire at full effect even if they move.
Ah. No templar players around here. I always liked their bigger mixed unit for fluff reasons and for being different. But I've haven't read their codex (codices?) since armageddon.

Konovalev
09-12-2014, 15:02
Why are you all taking Charistoph's bait? You know this conversation with him is circular. Its happened over and over and over. Leave it be.

I'd like to think he's got a document somewhere he just pastes from for all these topics, and that he isn't actually typing all this up over and over again.

I fear the truth may be far more depressing though.

Charistoph
09-12-2014, 15:42
I'd like to think he's got a document somewhere he just pastes from for all these topics, and that he isn't actually typing all this up over and over again.

I fear the truth may be far more depressing though.

Sorry to depress you.

But I'm not tossing out bait, others are tossing out chum. For some reason, Grndhog89 thinks he needs to be my monitor.

Grndhog89
09-12-2014, 16:34
Sorry to depress you.

But I'm not tossing out bait, others are tossing out chum. For some reason, Grndhog89 thinks he needs to be my monitor.

I don't think I need to be your monitor in the least. I am simply commenting that frequent posters on here such as myself and Just Tony realize you have a perennial BT crusade. Mentioning them with you around is like saying Beetlejuice three times and you poof into the thread, thus derailing it. Just because someone makes a comment about BT being rolled in you don't have to ride in every single time and debate them for 2-3 pages. Thats why I cautioned people to just not answer your counter-claims/manadatory Templar comments. If they avoided that then the thread would not be derailed.

Charistoph
09-12-2014, 16:48
I don't think I need to be your monitor in the least. I am simply commenting that frequent posters on here such as myself and Just Tony realize you have a perennial BT crusade. Mentioning them with you around is like saying Beetlejuice three times and you poof into the thread, thus derailing it. Just because someone makes a comment about BT being rolled in you don't have to ride in every single time and debate them for 2-3 pages. Thats why I cautioned people to just not answer your counter-claims/manadatory Templar comments. If they avoided that then the thread would not be derailed.

And every single time for the last year you have sought to derail it even more. Even on the thread dedicated to it, you and others couldn't leave my comments alone, but treat them as a rant. And you may or may not have noticed that I left alone Tony's first comment, largely because it was true for Templars as well as being true for the Angels as well.

Emperor Karl Franz
09-12-2014, 17:40
In the past I would have said Space Wolves, but right now it's got to be Raptors led by Lias Issadon. Being able to infiltrate 3 squads is so much fun and can really throw a spanner in the works. Ravenguard go cry your eyes out... suckers. :)

A Raven Guard assault marine is cutting himself while listening to Linkin Park as we speak. ;)

Just Tony
09-12-2014, 23:47
A Raven Guard assault marine is cutting himself while listening to Linkin Park as we speak. ;)

Thread won, we can all go home.

MrKeef
10-12-2014, 03:11
Call me boring, but I like the Codex: Space Marines codex best.

The other codexes all have different flavours, and I would feel weird going against that to try out a different army. For Codex marines I could,d base my army around thunder fires, bikes, sternguard, devastators, tanks, dreads literally anything in the book and it would work because this is the do anything book. It's vanilla because you add your own flavour to it.

While I could do that with blood angels or any of the other ones I would feel weird going against what they are best known for.

Denny
10-12-2014, 16:32
Call me boring, but I like the Codex: Space Marines codex best.

I don't play marines, but I'd agree. It seems to have the most options and lets you bring your own flavour to the party.
Not a fan of Space Wolves, but that's mainly because of playing against them a lot in 5th. Stupid lightning throwing Rune Priests.

Zustiur
13-12-2014, 02:16
Dark Angels are the most fun. Because they're green.

I honestly cannot figure out why I originally chose them over Blood Angles back in the Angels of Death codex, but I did, and that decision has stuck.
These days I like them partly because it gives me the opportunity to do silly role-play online... such as calling people heretics, and denying any wrong doing by the DA ever.
On the table... I guess I like them the most precisely because they don't have all the fancy toys that SM, BA, SW, GK etc get these days. In other words, DA are old school and represent to me the origins of space marines in an age where GW will destroy fluff in order to sell new models. You just know that someday SM are going to get a super heavy specifically to go in the LOW slot, once again going against the fluff, and DA will be the ones who don't get the new toy.

Obviously that prediction could be wrong, but hopefully people can see the point I'm making. If you see Ultramarines 2nd edition or even the black codex as 'true codex marines' as I do, then DA are the least deviant these days.

Voss
13-12-2014, 03:11
Dark Angels are the most fun. Because they're green.

I honestly cannot figure out why I originally chose them over Blood Angles back in the Angels of Death codex, but I did, and that decision has stuck.
These days I like them partly because it gives me the opportunity to do silly role-play online... such as calling people heretics, and denying any wrong doing by the DA ever.
On the table... I guess I like them the most precisely because they don't have all the fancy toys that SM, BA, SW, GK etc get these days. In other words, DA are old school and represent to me the origins of space marines in an age where GW will destroy fluff in order to sell new models. You just know that someday SM are going to get a super heavy specifically to go in the LOW slot, once again going against the fluff, and DA will be the ones who don't get the new toy.

Obviously that prediction could be wrong, but hopefully people can see the point I'm making. If you see Ultramarines 2nd edition or even the black codex as 'true codex marines' as I do, then DA are the least deviant these days.

I find this painfully ironic, given the green is entirely a retcon, and the current background isn't even a figment in the imagination of the writers when the chapter first appeared, and the stasis, rad and shroud systems are the very definition of fancy toys.

Emperor Karl Franz
13-12-2014, 03:45
The addition of Deathwing Knights, Ravenwing Black Knights, Nephilim Jetfighters, Ravenwing Dark Talons, the Land Speeder Vengeance, and the Land Speeder Darkshroud does make them a bit deviant.

Zustiur
13-12-2014, 08:06
The addition of Deathwing Knights, Ravenwing Black Knights, Nephilim Jetfighters, Ravenwing Dark Talons, the Land Speeder Vengeance, and the Land Speeder Darkshroud does make them a bit deviant.

True enough. But compare veterans with sternguard. I see sternguard as the more deviant of these two.
Deathwing knights are still terminators, even though they have different weapons. Whereas centurions...

I guess what I'm saying is that (to me) DA have altered less from their 2nd ed codex than generic SMs have.
Please note that I'm not talking about facts and figures here, more gut feeling.

insectum7
13-12-2014, 16:31
I find this painfully ironic, given the green is entirely a retcon, and the current background isn't even a figment in the imagination of the writers when the chapter first appeared, and the stasis, rad and shroud systems are the very definition of fancy toys.

Stasis and Rad are clearly callbacks to 1st and 2nd edition though. And DA have been green since the modern inception of Space Marines, it's pretty ancient. I can see where Zustiur's coming from.


True enough. But compare veterans with sternguard. I see sternguard as the more deviant of these two.
Deathwing knights are still terminators, even though they have different weapons. Whereas centurions...


Agreed on both accounts, although I'd point out that Sternguard can still be equipped exactly like a traditional Veterans Squad if you like. The difference there is just the special ammo, but it doesn't change how the model looks :).

Yeah, Centurions. . . so far I haven't taken them, and I definitely won't be collecting the models.