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Harwammer
04-12-2014, 15:59
So the chaos space marine boxes contain transfers for the cult legions (Thousand Sons, World Eaters, Death Guard and Emperor's Children).

Does this mean (with the right paint job and selection of bits) these models are intended to represent the cult units form these legions? Is the intention to represent non-cult troops in these legions?

Like if I build and paint some chaos space marines in World Eaters colours with a bolt pistol and chain sword in each hand then decorate them with WE transfers are they passable beserkers? Likewise if I make a marine in death guard colours with a bolter and knife in each hand with the appropriate details would that be a plague marine?

Obviously when doing this you'd try to select / modify helmets to best match the legion you are going for, but is it a fair way to represent the cult legions units in principle?

Scribe of Khorne
04-12-2014, 16:37
If going by WYSIWYG, yeah it doesnt matter.

To me though, bunny ears = berzerker, BP/Chain sword could just be CSM + CC load out, or if painted appropriately, Mark of Khorne.

Harwammer
04-12-2014, 17:22
Yea, I'm specifically talking about when painted in the legion colours with transfers applied.

Kjell
04-12-2014, 20:14
Yes, it's fair. As long as you don't have similar-looking units that do something entirely different. Some bits work or minor greenstuffing is certainly appreciated but at the end of the day it aint the size of the gut that makes the plague marine.

Born Again
05-12-2014, 08:01
It means that years and years ago, they made a CSM transfer sheet and attempted to put as many different symbols, legions and warbands on as possible, and they put it in to all kinds of CSM kits.

Do with that what you will.

Baaltor
06-12-2014, 05:55
It's whatever you want. It's 100% legit to make 1k sons models, and count them as CSM because they're just guys in the armour, and 100% legit say that your CSM are rubicised (Rubicerated?) in regular CSM armour.

That said: do this in good faith; don't just slack off when if comes to making rubic/cult marines. Make sure you put the effort in to differentiate them for sanity's sake, and to do the fluff justice.

MrKeef
08-12-2014, 03:34
I think you're right in thinking these are meant to represent the non legion troops in your army.

Rules wise you could use them as cult troops as long as they are WYSISY and you can tell them apart easily which isn't too hard with painting.

I'm a huge fluff bunny though, so personally I would like some appropriate modelling work. Not as much as the actual models but something at least.

For example
Swelling, sickness or rotting flesh
Chain weapon ears and running
Huge ears robes and Egyptian vibe
Speakers and... the colour pink? Have these guys even moved in from their fething metal weapons upgrade kit? Someone is in dire need of an update now I think about it.

Voss
08-12-2014, 04:30
So the chaos space marine boxes contain transfers for the cult legions (Thousand Sons, World Eaters, Death Guard and Emperor's Children).

Does this mean (with the right paint job and selection of bits) these models are intended to represent the cult units form these legions? Is the intention to represent non-cult troops in these legions?
Nope. Cult units and units simply with marks are distinct. Moreover, this sort of proxying is especially confusing for the opponent:


Like if I build and paint some chaos space marines in World Eaters colours with a bolt pistol and chain sword in each hand then decorate them with WE transfers are they passable beserkers?
Nothing to distinguish between a berserker and CSM squad with mark of Khorne here.


Likewise if I make a marine in death guard colours with a bolter and knife in each hand with the appropriate details would that be a plague marine?
Likewise. A plague marine is visually distinct from a CSM trooper who happens to have the favor of nurgle (but nothing else).


Obviously when doing this you'd try to select / modify helmets to best match the legion you are going for, but is it a fair way to represent the cult legions units in principle?
For friendly games against people who honestly don't care, it is entirely fair. But in principle it is exactly the opposite, since it is a fantastic way to fudge matters and trick or mind game opponents.

Freak Ona Leash
08-12-2014, 06:02
Voss makes a fair point, but only comes into play if you have both unit types in your army: i.e. you include berzerkers and Mark of Khorne CSMs. If you have only berzerkers, then I think its consistent enough to not matter. Plus, depends on your own style of play. Are you going to trick and bamboozle opponents with mind games based on the paint schemes and modeling details of your units? If so, might be best to not tempt yourself, and make the two as distinct as possible. If you're a reasonable human being however, you can probably trust yourself to not be an **** and something like that, and therefore are rather free to do what you want.

Harwammer
08-12-2014, 07:07
Nope. Cult units and units simply with marks are distinct. Moreover, this sort of proxying is especially confusing for the opponent:


Nothing to distinguish between a berserker and CSM squad with mark of Khorne here.


Likewise. A plague marine is visually distinct from a CSM trooper who happens to have the favor of nurgle (but nothing else).


For friendly games against people who honestly don't care, it is entirely fair. But in principle it is exactly the opposite, since it is a fantastic way to fudge matters and trick or mind game opponents.

You are saying there are non-berserker World Eaters and non-rubric Thousand Sons (background wise) and the existence of these would cause confusion as to which World Eaters are berzerkers proper and which are simply regular chaos space marines (probably with mark of khorne)?


Edit: sorry meant to check you are saying there are World Eaters that AREN'T berzerkers.

Born Again
08-12-2014, 09:09
Speakers and... the colour pink? Have these guys even moved in from their fething metal weapons upgrade kit? Someone is in dire need of an update now I think about it.

Agreed, the current Noise Marines are horribly outdated and didn't look great to begin with. They certainly need a new plastic kit, preferably drawing on Jes Goodwin's old concept sketch of a Noise Marine, which looks great. Until then, Forge World's Kakophoni (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/The_Horus_Heresy/Legiones_Astartes/Emperors_Children/EMPEROR%27S_CHILDREN_LEGION_KAKOPHONI.html) are a pretty close starting point if you add CSM backpacks.

AndrewGPaul
08-12-2014, 09:22
Not all Khorne Berserkers are World Eaters, and not all World Eaters are necessarily Khorne Berserkers (for example, the ones in Devastator/Havoc squads, and the ones driving tanks :)). Likewise, Emperor's Children and Noise Marines are overlapping sets. Plague Marines are a bit less clear (I would think that all Death guard are bloated and covered in weeping sores), but some of them must be equipped with close combat weapons or heavy weapons. I tend to think of the Plague Marines codex entry as the "sternguard" of Nurgle's marines.

Thousand sons are slightly different; all the non-sorcerors in that Legion were turned into animated armour by the Rubric, but it's unclear what happened after? Do they extract geneseed from the surviving Sorcerors and recruit new members of the Legion, providing new mortal Thousand Sons? Likewise, could some non-Thousand Sons sorcerors of Tzeentch attempt something like the Rubric on a smaller scale to surround themselves with an unliving bodyguard? It's up to you.

Think of it as the difference between ordinary Space Marines and Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans; you can use the official miniatures for the latter two, but all you really need is a squad of Space Marines with white helmets (or gold, or whatever symbol your Chapter uses).

Born Again
08-12-2014, 09:54
Whenever the subject's come up before, I believe the general consensus was that they 'summoned' the souls of Rubric Marines back in to their armour after it had been repaired. Someone may have had a piece of fluff supporting it, I can't remember, or it may have just been general agreement on the most sensible answer. If Lord Damocles sees this he can probably help more, as he seems to be able to instantly recall the exact page reference for any piece of text ever xD

Harwammer
08-12-2014, 10:29
Emperor's Children and Noise Marines are overlapping sets.

Are they? I don't think there is any EC iconography in the noise marine upgrade kit. I think there is a separate shoulder pad kit, and obviously the basic CSM kit contains EC water-slide transfers. The Noise Marine kit is completely unaffiliated with the ECs.

I'm a little disappointed with how the Noise Marines are represented in the gallery section of the codex. Noise marines are always described as having lurid, outlandish armour but only the champion's colour scheme is distinguishable from the regular EC's.

Lord Damocles
08-12-2014, 12:30
'Every member of the World Eaters Legion is a Berzerker, although not every Beserker originates from that Legion.'
Codex: Chaos Space Marines (3.5 ed.), pg.29

Although not every Berzerker need be an axe-wielding crazy all of the time. We know that the World Eaters have tank crews, and some remain (relatively) sane enoguh to carry out brain surgery, for example. 2nd (and 3rd?) ed. Berzerkers could take Bolters. There's plenty of background scope for World Eaters which don't use the Berzerker entry in the Codex.

---
I think it was one of the Ragnar Blackmane novels which had Thousand Sons being summoned back into their armour (or into new suits).

AndrewGPaul
08-12-2014, 12:54
Curses, foiled again.

There's also a piece of concept art in The Gothic and the Eldritch: The Collected Sketches of Jes Goodwin of a World Eater Marine (I can't remember if it says "Berserker" or not) with a plasma cannon.

Back in late 1st edition, when the look of each of the four main Legions was beginning to come together, there was a small range of World Eaters marines released, in three groups; three with boltguns, four with a selection of bolters, bolt pistols and close combat weapons and three "assault marines" with pistols and axes and no armour on their right arm and leg (www.solegends.com/citcat94/cat1994152-03.htm). I think those were where the idea of the "berserker" as a specific unit came from, and that's why the Kharn model has a bare right arm.


Are they? I don't think there is any EC iconography in the noise marine upgrade kit. I think there is a separate shoulder pad kit, and obviously the basic CSM kit contains EC water-slide transfers. The Noise Marine kit is completely unaffiliated with the ECs.

Sorry, I was unclear. What I meant was that not every Noise Marine is from the Emperor's Children Legion, and not every Emperor's Children Marine is a Noise Marine. But I'd already said that in those words about Khorner Berserkers, and I was trying to vary my sentences.

Still, regardless of the background, in my 40k, the Thousand Sons have some new, mortal recruits; apart from anything else, I want some models armed with something other than a boltgun. :)

Excessus
08-12-2014, 13:24
Comeon, we are NOT loyalists! Not all of a warband's members have the "proper" geneseed. Yes you can have marines in Thousand Sons colours without them being rubrics, yes it is the same with the other cults as well. There are fluff and logical reasons to why in all four cases.

But you do need to distinguish the cult marines from the normal ones...and there are upgrade kits for that from GW...

Lord Damocles
08-12-2014, 14:05
Still, regardless of the background, in my 40k, the Thousand Sons have some new, mortal recruits; apart from anything else, I want some models armed with something other than a boltgun. :)
Prior to the 3.5 Codex, the studio Chaos army included a group of Thousand Sons, one of whom had a Plasma Gun. I don't see any reason that becoming an armoured ghost would cause you to discard all weapons but Bolters. 3.5 Rubric Terminators remembered how to use Power weapons, after all.

Harwammer
08-12-2014, 15:04
Curses, foiled again.

There's also a piece of concept art in The Gothic and the Eldritch: The Collected Sketches of Jes Goodwin of a World Eater Marine (I can't remember if it says "Berserker" or not) with a plasma cannon.

Back in late 1st edition, when the look of each of the four main Legions was beginning to come together, there was a small range of World Eaters marines released, in three groups; three with boltguns, four with a selection of bolters, bolt pistols and close combat weapons and three "assault marines" with pistols and axes and no armour on their right arm and leg (www.solegends.com/citcat94/cat1994152-03.htm). I think those were where the idea of the "berserker" as a specific unit came from, and that's why the Kharn model has a bare right arm.



Sorry, I was unclear. What I meant was that not every Noise Marine is from the Emperor's Children Legion, and not every Emperor's Children Marine is a Noise Marine. But I'd already said that in those words about Khorner Berserkers, and I was trying to vary my sentences.

Still, regardless of the background, in my 40k, the Thousand Sons have some new, mortal recruits; apart from anything else, I want some models armed with something other than a boltgun. :)

Ah I understand now. We're on the same page! Not all troops from the cult legions are the cult 'specialists', and not all cult specialists are from the cult legions.

AndrewGPaul
08-12-2014, 15:10
Prior to the 3.5 Codex, the studio Chaos army included a group of Thousand Sons, one of whom had a Plasma Gun. I don't see any reason that becoming an armoured ghost would cause you to discard all weapons but Bolters. 3.5 Rubric Terminators remembered how to use Power weapons, after all.

I quite agree; the army list, however, does not (can you even get post-Rubric Thousand Sons Terminators anymore?). OK, I could understand the lack of assault troops if they're all slow and lumbering, but why not give 'em a load of heavy weapons and tell 'em to stand at the back? :)

Azazyll
08-12-2014, 15:49
Fabius Bile is the best example of unsworn members of the four traditionally cult legions, with Abbadon's recruitment of the sorcerers able to make new Plague Marines for his Black Legion the best known of the opposing situation.

And you could always have a group of Thousands Sons missed by Ahriman's Rubric for [insert reason here]. Because it's magic.

But I agree that it's a bit confusing to not appropriately model the cult troops. They should be distinctive.

AndrewGPaul
08-12-2014, 21:57
Mind you, if the rest of your Chaos Marines are Black Legion or Iron Warriors, then painting some ordinary plastic Chaos Marines red and putting World Eaters decals on their shoulder pads is distinctive. :)

I'd even be willing to accept something like "All the World Eaters with boltguns and heavy weapons are ordinary Chaos Marines, and all the ones with chainswords, chain axes and bolt pistols are Berserkers." YMMV.

Kjell
08-12-2014, 23:40
World Eaters with bolters and heavy weapons are pretty cool, really. The followers of the war god dealing in heavy weaponry only makes sense. All of them being unthinking madmen is boring, anyway. I'd happily rewrite them as seeking militaristic discipline in attempts to control themselves and actually get something done. It makes for better tension in the background (and nice contrast to followers of Slaanesh) and subtler frenzy rules would make for more interesting gameplay. Kharn would actually stand out in character instead of only being concentrated berserker.